Onan DJE generator starting problem
 

I am not sure about genny starters but to me it sounds like the bendix is
not engaging, replace starter I would say. But that sure does look the
beaut!!!!!

Searcher1

"Ignoramus4824" wrote in message
...

I am a new proud owner of a used Onan DJE 1 phase 6 kw diesel 1800 rpm
generator. It is a civilian version, even though it is military
surplus. I bought it from the military and brought it home today
(along with a truckload of other stuff).

Today's pictures are at:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/home/

It is a cutie, and not big at all. Approximately 4 feet long. It does
not have a fuel tank, however, I own a plastic 25 gallon moeller tank
that I will attach to the genny provided that I can see it run. It
weight approximately 500 lbs. (WAG) It looks like the perfect doomsday
survivalist generator.

There is no hourmeter on it.

I know the following about it:

- The manual fuel pump lever pumps something

- The crankshaft spins when I spin it manually, with varying degree of
difficulty depending on the piston position, at times quite hard. It
makes sounds like "ouch", which again I interpret as good things
related to valves opening.

- When I connect a battery to two reasonably placed contacts, and turn
the START switch, a loud click is heard and then nothing.

- When I connect the battery to the starter directly, it spins, but
does not engage the gear that should spin the crankshaft. I _suppose_
that this is evidence of me incorrectly connecting the battery. Is
that right? It could also be evidence of solenoid not providing the
contact, but would be unlikely given that I do hear a loud click.

So, it seems that things are not that bad. All I need to know is
whether I am on the right track with starting. I have some manuals,
that I am going to consult now.

Thanks!

i

Ignoramus4824 wrote:
- When I connect a battery to two reasonably placed contacts, and turn
the START switch, a loud click is heard and then nothing.

Do you know if this is a 12V system? If it's 24V, you'd probably get
those symptoms...

It's probably a 24 volt starter and needs more power than one car battery
would have anyway. Try two batteries and check if it's 12 or 24 volt.

First thought is that it's 24 volt. (See other posts) should be able to
get 12 volt starter but does it have some more ciruitry that needs to be
converted??

Ignoramus4824 wrote:
I am a new proud owner of a used Onan DJE 1 phase 6 kw diesel 1800 rpm
generator. It is a civilian version, even though it is military
surplus. I bought it from the military and brought it home today
(along with a truckload of other stuff).

Today's pictures are at:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/home/

It is a cutie, and not big at all. Approximately 4 feet long. It does
not have a fuel tank, however, I own a plastic 25 gallon moeller tank
that I will attach to the genny provided that I can see it run. It
weight approximately 500 lbs. (WAG) It looks like the perfect doomsday
survivalist generator.

There is no hourmeter on it.

I know the following about it:

- The manual fuel pump lever pumps something

- The crankshaft spins when I spin it manually, with varying degree of
difficulty depending on the piston position, at times quite hard. It
makes sounds like "ouch", which again I interpret as good things
related to valves opening.

- When I connect a battery to two reasonably placed contacts, and turn
the START switch, a loud click is heard and then nothing.

- When I connect the battery to the starter directly, it spins, but
does not engage the gear that should spin the crankshaft. I _suppose_
that this is evidence of me incorrectly connecting the battery. Is
that right? It could also be evidence of solenoid not providing the
contact, but would be unlikely given that I do hear a loud click.

So, it seems that things are not that bad. All I need to know is
whether I am on the right track with starting. I have some manuals,
that I am going to consult now.

Thanks!

i

On 4 Dec 2004 00:31:49 GMT, Ignoramus4824
wrote:


I am a new proud owner of a used Onan DJE 1 phase 6 kw diesel 1800 rpm
generator. It is a civilian version, even though it is military
surplus. I bought it from the military and brought it home today
(along with a truckload of other stuff).

Today's pictures are at:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/home/

It is a cutie, and not big at all. Approximately 4 feet long. It does
not have a fuel tank, however, I own a plastic 25 gallon moeller tank
that I will attach to the genny provided that I can see it run. It
weight approximately 500 lbs. (WAG) It looks like the perfect doomsday
survivalist generator.

There is no hourmeter on it.

I know the following about it:

- The manual fuel pump lever pumps something

- The crankshaft spins when I spin it manually, with varying degree of
difficulty depending on the piston position, at times quite hard. It
makes sounds like "ouch", which again I interpret as good things
related to valves opening.

- When I connect a battery to two reasonably placed contacts, and turn
the START switch, a loud click is heard and then nothing.

- When I connect the battery to the starter directly, it spins, but
does not engage the gear that should spin the crankshaft. I _suppose_
that this is evidence of me incorrectly connecting the battery. Is
that right? It could also be evidence of solenoid not providing the
contact, but would be unlikely given that I do hear a loud click.

So, it seems that things are not that bad. All I need to know is
whether I am on the right track with starting. I have some manuals,
that I am going to consult now.

Thanks!

i

I have a little diesel generator that runs all day long just about
everyday. I assume you have a compression release if you can spin the
crank manually, so I would try opening the release and trying it. Also
see if your hot lead goes to the start switch and to solenoid. (one
pulls the solenoid in, the other, heavier, provides the hot to the
starter once its pulled in, at least on mine).

"Ignoramus4824" wrote in message
...

I am a new proud owner of a used Onan DJE 1 phase 6 kw diesel 1800 rpm
generator. It is a civilian version, even though it is military
surplus. I bought it from the military and brought it home today
(along with a truckload of other stuff).

Today's pictures are at:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/home/

Question.
What was your winning bid?

I may have to start attending mill surplus auctions. :-)

Ignoramus4824 wrote:
I am a new proud owner of a used Onan DJE 1 phase 6 kw diesel 1800 rpm
generator. It is a civilian version, even though it is military
surplus. I bought it from the military and brought it home today
(along with a truckload of other stuff).

Today's pictures are at:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/home/

What the H**L is that spark plug in the bottom center and right
pictures? Is that really a glow plug to preheat intake air for
starting? Ah, yes, "heater switch", I see it on the control panel.

Jon

On 4 Dec 2004 00:31:49 GMT, Ignoramus4824
wrote:

I am a new proud owner of a used Onan DJE 1 phase 6 kw diesel 1800 rpm
generator. It is a civilian version, even though it is military
surplus. I bought it from the military and brought it home today
(along with a truckload of other stuff).

Today's pictures are at:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/home/

It is a cutie, and not big at all. Approximately 4 feet long. It does
not have a fuel tank, however, I own a plastic 25 gallon moeller tank
that I will attach to the genny provided that I can see it run. It
weight approximately 500 lbs. (WAG) It looks like the perfect doomsday
survivalist generator.

Well, you'll need something to start with - at least a gallon fuel
can with a hose stuck in the open cap (weighted at the end) as a tank
pickup. And make some sort of strainer on the end, so it doesn't suck
up tight against the bottom or side and starve the fuel supply.

There is no hourmeter on it.

There's no muffler, either. If you're going to experiment with
getting it running, rig up some sort of an exhaust system first - or
it's going to be serious loud, and the neighbors are going to form a
lynch mob post haste.

I know the following about it:

- The manual fuel pump lever pumps something

On a Diesel engine you need to have the fuel system fully primed and
purged of air before it'll run - break out the manual and read up on
how to bleed the fuel system.

- The crankshaft spins when I spin it manually, with varying degree of
difficulty depending on the piston position, at times quite hard. It
makes sounds like "ouch", which again I interpret as good things
related to valves opening.

- When I connect a battery to two reasonably placed contacts, and turn
the START switch, a loud click is heard and then nothing.

Look at picture dscf0047.jpg - the big unit at the top is the
starter motor, the little unit at the bottom is the solenoid. You
want to connect the battery Positive to the vacant big stud on the
bottom of the solenoid, and the ground to the engine block.

Don't scrimp on battery or cables - Diesels take a lot more juice to
crank over than a gasoline engine. #00 cables (no clamp-on replacement
ends) and a good Group 27 battery with at least a 600 CCA rating.

When you actuate the starter solenoid, it's supposed to pull that
lever and linkage to the left in, which pulls on a shift fork, which
moves the sliding part of the Bendix in an annular groove and extends
the starter Bendix into the ring gear on the flywheel/fan ring.

If the linkage is sticky, or the rubber dust cap on the end of the
solenoid is petrified, nothing will happen. The solenoid can't get
all the way in to complete the next step.

After the solenoid pulls all the way in, the power relay contacts on
the back side switch the incoming battery power (bottom big stud) to
he starter motor (top big stud with the strap conductor heading into
the starter motor).

If the solenoid pulls all the way in but doesn't switch power on to
the starter motor, the contacts inside the solenoid are probably toast
- but you can often take it apart and clean everything up with a file
and get it to work for a while. You might have to shim out the power
contact studs if they're seriously worn, or braze some extra thickness
onto the top surfaces and file them flat again...

- When I connect the battery to the starter directly, it spins, but
does not engage the gear that should spin the crankshaft. I _suppose_
that this is evidence of me incorrectly connecting the battery. Is
that right? It could also be evidence of solenoid not providing the
contact, but would be unlikely given that I do hear a loud click.

So, it seems that things are not that bad. All I need to know is
whether I am on the right track with starting. I have some manuals,
that I am going to consult now.

And once you get it cranking, make SURE to check that oil pressure
gauge and make sure it comes up fairly soon after the starter catches.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

OK - I've got one of those (the engine).
Damned good and most forgiving if just about all maintenance omissions.
As to the muffler - You don't need one - really!
A straight piece of pipe to get the exhaust out of your way is sufficient.
There is a lot more noise from the head than the exhause pipe. Try it - you
will see what I mean.
Don't worry about the fuel return - just run a tube back to the tank fron
the 'spill' line on the engine.
When you start it up be aware that there is a fuel shut off solenoid that
may be stuck the same as the starter pull-in. Same fix as what you did to
the starter. Also make sure the governor linkages are free to move.
If it doesn't want to start do not use starter fluid - good way to blow the
head gasket or the entire head. Trick I use is to dribble a little motor oil
(teaspoon) into the air intake (air box cover and filter off). Hit the
pre-heat until the oil on the heater coil ignites and then hit the starter.
If I recall correctly (it has been a long time since I had mine running) the
fuel system is pretty much self-bleeding.
It is one tough engine - I have had mine running on fuel that had sat around
for ten years!
Good luck.
Ken.


--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

Ignoramus7135 wrote:
On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 09:31:05 -0600, Ken Davey
wrote:
OK - I've got one of those (the engine).

Damned good and most forgiving if just about all maintenance
omissions.

That's nice to hear.

As to the muffler - You don't need one - really!
A straight piece of pipe to get the exhaust out of your way is
sufficient. There is a lot more noise from the head than the exhause
pipe. Try it - you will see what I mean.

I will give it a try, especially since I do have some stainless steel
flexible hose etc, by luck fitting the NPT diameter of the exhaust
fitting.

By the way, something puzzles me, how come the exhaust manifold is
still green on my genset, should the paint not fall off?

Don't worry about the fuel return - just run a tube back to the tank
fron the 'spill' line on the engine.

Exactly.

The manual fuel pump is already working, I got to that point.

The engine would not start, it spins somewhat slowly and belches white
smoke (meaning that there is fuel in the cylinders).

The wires to the starter became very hot, which makes me think that I
have inadequate wires and have unacceptable voltage drop.

When you start it up be aware that there is a fuel shut off solenoid
that may be stuck the same as the starter pull-in. Same fix as what
you did to the starter. Also make sure the governor linkages are
free to move.

I think that gov linkages are free to move, and the engine belches
white smoke. I will not go and buy bigger battery cables.

If it doesn't want to start do not use starter fluid - good way to
blow the head gasket or the entire head. Trick I use is to dribble a
little motor oil (teaspoon) into the air intake (air box cover and
filter off). Hit the pre-heat until the oil on the heater coil
ignites and then hit the starter. If I recall correctly (it has been
a long time since I had mine running) the fuel system is pretty much
self-bleeding. It is one tough engine - I have had mine running on
fuel that had sat around for ten years!

That's cool. How long would they last under reasonable conditions? Are
filters and other consumables hard to find?

The oil filter is standard off-the shelf.
The air filter could be a problem - take care of the one you got.
The trial-by-fire for the pre-heat coil deosn't seem to have any negative
consequences.
THe only flaw in the engine that I am aware is they have a history of
breaking crankshafts. How many hours or under what circumstances I don't
know.
White smoke is a good sign - more pre-heat and it should go. One started it
will be easy to re-start.
BTW - if you've not done it yet an oil change can be a shock. That sump is
huge!.
Regards.
Ken.


--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

On 4 Dec 2004 17:06:12 GMT, Ignoramus7135
wrote:

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 09:31:05 -0600, Ken Davey wrote:
OK - I've got one of those (the engine).

Damned good and most forgiving if just about all maintenance omissions.

That's nice to hear.

As to the muffler - You don't need one - really!
A straight piece of pipe to get the exhaust out of your way is sufficient.
There is a lot more noise from the head than the exhause pipe. Try it - you
will see what I mean.

I will give it a try, especially since I do have some stainless steel
flexible hose etc, by luck fitting the NPT diameter of the exhaust
fitting.

By the way, something puzzles me, how come the exhaust manifold is
still green on my genset, should the paint not fall off?

Assuming that the green paint is not on a jacket over the real
manifold..it would appear to be unused.

Don't worry about the fuel return - just run a tube back to the tank fron
the 'spill' line on the engine.

Exactly.

The manual fuel pump is already working, I got to that point.

The engine would not start, it spins somewhat slowly and belches white
smoke (meaning that there is fuel in the cylinders).

The wires to the starter became very hot, which makes me think that I
have inadequate wires and have unacceptable voltage drop.

When you start it up be aware that there is a fuel shut off solenoid that
may be stuck the same as the starter pull-in. Same fix as what you did to
the starter. Also make sure the governor linkages are free to move.

I think that gov linkages are free to move, and the engine belches
white smoke. I will not go and buy bigger battery cables.

Got jumper cables? Think Thick wires. Diesels use compression to
ignite the fuel air mix..so it takes a great deal of power to crank it
over under compression.

You might...might consider a spritz of WD-40 into the intake while
cranking. This is flammable and is easier to ignite, and unlike ether,
will not wash the rings and cylinder walls of lubrication oil.

a propane torch placed in the intake manifold, unlit of course, with
the valve cracked a bit, may also help start it.

Gunner


If it doesn't want to start do not use starter fluid - good way to blow the
head gasket or the entire head. Trick I use is to dribble a little motor oil
(teaspoon) into the air intake (air box cover and filter off). Hit the
pre-heat until the oil on the heater coil ignites and then hit the starter.
If I recall correctly (it has been a long time since I had mine running) the
fuel system is pretty much self-bleeding.
It is one tough engine - I have had mine running on fuel that had sat around
for ten years!

That's cool. How long would they last under reasonable conditions? Are
filters and other consumables hard to find?

i

"I mean, when's the last time you heard of a college where the Young
Republicans staged a "Sit In" to close down the Humanities building?
On the flip side, how many sit in's were staged to close the ROTC building back in the '60's?
Liberals stage protests, do civil disobedience, etc.
Conservatives talk politely and try to work out a solution to problems
through discourse until they believe that talking won't work... they they go home and open the gun cabinets.
Pray things never get to the point where the conservatives decide that
"civil disobedience" is the next step, because that's a very short route to "voting from the rooftops"
Jeffrey Swartz, Misc.Survivalism

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 17:44:32 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



You might...might consider a spritz of WD-40 into the intake while
cranking. This is flammable and is easier to ignite, and unlike ether,
will not wash the rings and cylinder walls of lubrication oil.

a propane torch placed in the intake manifold, unlit of course, with
the valve cracked a bit, may also help start it.

Gunner

I had to use a propane torch on mine this morn, `cept I lite it, heat
up the intake and the fuel line. I been thinking about a squirt of
wd40 but too chicken to try it yet.

On 4 Dec 2004 18:06:50 GMT, Ignoramus7135
wrote:


Assuming that the green paint is not on a jacket over the real
manifold..it would appear to be unused.

Here are super detailed pictures of the exhaust manifold:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/home/exhaust/

It does appear to not be in any sort of a jacket. The rusted fitting
is the fitting that the engine came with, and the new looking piece is
mine.

Based on those photos..your engine has been run..but not very darned
much.

Btw, I assume you are trying to start this from the battery in your
vehicle, correct? Of course be sure your vehicle is running when
turning over the starter.

Post the details of how you got it and for how much. G

I may award you a Gunner's Gold Star for Scounging.

Gunner

"I mean, when's the last time you heard of a college where the Young
Republicans staged a "Sit In" to close down the Humanities building?
On the flip side, how many sit in's were staged to close the ROTC building back in the '60's?
Liberals stage protests, do civil disobedience, etc.
Conservatives talk politely and try to work out a solution to problems
through discourse until they believe that talking won't work... they they go home and open the gun cabinets.
Pray things never get to the point where the conservatives decide that
"civil disobedience" is the next step, because that's a very short route to "voting from the rooftops"
Jeffrey Swartz, Misc.Survivalism

Ignoramus7135 wrote:

Yes, I just went to Napa auto parts and bout a heavy 4awg cable
instead of the 6awg cable that I had (another one already was 4
awg). It helped in the sense that the diesel did actually run a few
revolutions.
That spark plug-looking thing in the intake manifold is the preheater.
It probably heats a ceramic disc with nichrome strip as a heating
element. It may work a LOT better in getting the engine to start
and keep running than trying to heat the manifold from the outside.
Putting the exhaust of a propane torch in the intake will give it
hot air, which sounds good, but there won't be much oxygen left
in that air. But, if it fires at all, you'd expect black smoke.

If all else fails, you might need to heat the cylinders a bit.
If you heat them to the point that a drop of oil smokes, then
you definitely should be able to get it to run. If it still doesn't
keep running, there may be crud in the injection pump or injectors.
(Somebody else said this model was self bleeding.) So, you may have
to just run it through, or loosen the fittings at the injectors
and let the pump purge the old fuel and debris.

Jon

Ignoramus7135 wrote:
update:

The engine actually STARTED FOR REAL just now, belched a lot of smoke
and scared the bejesus out of me. because I started it in an enclosed
garage. It is kinda cold outside, and so I preferred to do it inside a
garage with a heater. It would not start again, I think that because
the second battery is now ****ed up also. Will try the pickup
truck/jumper suggestion.

i
Hang in there - you are on the right track.
Just remember - LOTS OF PRE-HEAT!

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

Feels like I am looking over your shoulder (BFG)

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

a propane torch placed in the intake manifold, unlit of course, with
the valve cracked a bit, may also help start it.

Gunner

The propane torch down the intake trick, ISN'T to add propane to make
the engine start. It is to add HOT AIR to the intake, and to do that
the torch needs to be LITE. If a diesel has fuel being injected into
the cyl, then all that is required to get it to run in HOT AIR.
ANY diesdel will fire with just injected fuel and HOT AIR, even down
at -50F on the first compression cycle. It is the nature of the beast.


Me who has used this method for years.......

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 19:27:47 GMT, Me wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

a propane torch placed in the intake manifold, unlit of course, with
the valve cracked a bit, may also help start it.

Gunner

The propane torch down the intake trick, ISN'T to add propane to make
the engine start. It is to add HOT AIR to the intake, and to do that
the torch needs to be LITE. If a diesel has fuel being injected into
the cyl, then all that is required to get it to run in HOT AIR.
ANY diesdel will fire with just injected fuel and HOT AIR, even down
at -50F on the first compression cycle. It is the nature of the beast.


Me who has used this method for years.......

Sigh..mea culpa. You are indeed correct. I was thinking gasoline
engines. Brain fart on my part. Sigh....

Gunner

"I mean, when's the last time you heard of a college where the Young
Republicans staged a "Sit In" to close down the Humanities building?
On the flip side, how many sit in's were staged to close the ROTC building back in the '60's?
Liberals stage protests, do civil disobedience, etc.
Conservatives talk politely and try to work out a solution to problems
through discourse until they believe that talking won't work... they they go home and open the gun cabinets.
Pray things never get to the point where the conservatives decide that
"civil disobedience" is the next step, because that's a very short route to "voting from the rooftops"
Jeffrey Swartz, Misc.Survivalism

In article rs.com,
Jon Elson wrote:

Ignoramus7135 wrote:

Yes, I just went to Napa auto parts and bout a heavy 4awg cable
instead of the 6awg cable that I had (another one already was 4
awg). It helped in the sense that the diesel did actually run a few
revolutions.
That spark plug-looking thing in the intake manifold is the preheater.
It probably heats a ceramic disc with nichrome strip as a heating
element. It may work a LOT better in getting the engine to start
and keep running than trying to heat the manifold from the outside.
Putting the exhaust of a propane torch in the intake will give it
hot air, which sounds good, but there won't be much oxygen left
in that air. But, if it fires at all, you'd expect black smoke.

If all else fails, you might need to heat the cylinders a bit.
If you heat them to the point that a drop of oil smokes, then
you definitely should be able to get it to run. If it still doesn't
keep running, there may be crud in the injection pump or injectors.
(Somebody else said this model was self bleeding.) So, you may have
to just run it through, or loosen the fittings at the injectors
and let the pump purge the old fuel and debris.

Jon


There is plenty of Oxygen left in the intake manifold if you use a
propane torch to heat the air going in the intake. That propane flame
isn't burning anywhere near all the O2 that is heated by the torch.
White smoke is from diesel undercombustin as in not enough HOT air,
and, or, not enough fuel.

Me

Me wrote:


There is plenty of Oxygen left in the intake manifold if you use a
propane torch to heat the air going in the intake. That propane flame
isn't burning anywhere near all the O2 that is heated by the torch.
White smoke is from diesel undercombustin as in not enough HOT air,
and, or, not enough fuel.


Every propane torch I've ever owned had holes in the base of the flame
tube for drawing air into the flame. The "carburetor" IS the flame
tube. Though the flame "might" consume some oxygen from the immediate
area surrounding the flame, it won't be the sole or majority source of
oxygen for the flame's combustion. More likely the most it would do is
displace some of the oxygen with the propane flame exhaust gas.

My furnace and stove do the same thing, premixing air with gas before
it gets to the burner holes.



--
"You take the BLUE PILL, you wake up in your own bed,
and you BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO.
You take the RED PILL, you stay in WONDERLAND,
and I'll show you HOW DEEP THE RABBIT HOLE GOES." - Morpheus

red pill:
http://www.861.info/ --- "They" don't want you to look here.