Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #41   Report Post  
GTO69RA4
 
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snip

Lennie, I've never seen a particular reason for high-cap mags, but I've never
seen any problem with them either. Main purpose is to supply a full-auto
weapon, which isn't legal anyway. A semi-auto rifle with a low-capacity fixed
magazine can be reloaded very quickly with stripper clips, like they have been
for 100 years. Just a few seconds. Unless the shooter is running full tilt it
usually isn't a big deal to push in another 5 or 10 round stripper.

As far as legalities in the woods, at least in the places I know it's not legal
to hunt with a magazine over 5 rounds. Just for practical reasons I don't think
I'd drag around a long, snaggy magazine going through brush.

GTO(John)
  #42   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:30:00 -0800, "Phillep"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote

If it had a 20 round detachable Magazine, it wasnt an SKS.


Not so. There was also a modified SKS availible back around 1990 that would
take standard AK mags. I wish I'd gotten one back then.


Read what you wrote. Modified. Once its modified, its no longer a
stock SKS, correct?

Also, there's a type of magazine I think of as a "duckbill", it looks sort
of like a normal magazine with a "beak" stuck out the front. The mouth of
the beak fits on the catch pin in front and the latch holds it in place in
back. They were made in 5, 10, and 20 cartridge models. Easily removed, but
I don't think it's counted as a "removable" because you have to hold the
bolt back. (I haven't messed with an SKS for a while, so don't really
remember.) The SKS is not modified. These magazines were availible in both
metal and Zytel. The plastic ones sucked (I got one.)

Google rec.guns, SKS +"AK magazine" 27 hits.

Correct. And the addition of such no longer made it an SKS. It made
it a modified SKS. It changed the design parameters drasticly.

Gunner



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes
  #43   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:20:55 -0800, 'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
wrote:

Ignore the fact of thousands of owners with guns with high
capacity mags that never commit a crime.


Neither do the many, many millions of people riding about
in aircraft each year .....
--
Cliff
  #44   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:12:37 -0800, 'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:31:29 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:26:04 -0800, "Phillep"
wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote

Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone.

What do you think it's a clone of? The Russians designed it right after
WWII, the idea was drawn from a German rifle, but that's about it.

Had the laws not been
changed to allow this idocy, maybe there wouldn't have been so many.

Has the law in fact been changed? Got a cite on that?

If it had a 20 round detachable Magazine, it wasnt an SKS.


Hmmm. I've got an SKS with a 30 round detachable mag. Go figure.


You have the similar SKS Sporter. Thats illegal in California, and
IRRC, was on the List of banned for import "assault weapons"

Gunner




Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes
  #45   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

But Gunner is not correct that the FBI tracks this data.


Just more of his BS, eh?
Looks like the pond thawed.


It's a common mistake. People like Josh Sugarmann were very successful in
muddying the waters over this whole issue. You can go back to the major
newspaper and TV stories of the time and find references that say,
"according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports," and then, in the same
article, they say "BATF says..."

The truth is, they don't know where the data came from. They didn't look.
They read PR handouts from HCI and the FOP...which were complete bull****.

Once again, trust no second-hand figures. Go to the source, or risk being
made a patsy by somebody with an agenda.

Ed Huntress




  #46   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun


How many kids with toy plastic guns have the police shot over
the years? All in self defense .....


I don't know. Why don't you go look?

Ed Huntress


  #47   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


How would that ever be a problem were they, per
statements, never used?


As I said, they create an image problem, and a real problem. The real
problem is that they make for dramatic stories that wind up totally
dissembling the facts about guns and crime...such as the story about the
deer hunter.

While he killed six people, six hundred were killed with handguns. And all
of the attention is being given to "assault weapons" while that is going on.

Someone has done a fine job of distracting attention from what's going on,
and you're playing right into it.

Ed Huntress


  #48   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
. com...

Unfortunately, money and blustering bull**** still talk louder than
rationale. Myself, I think there should be a bounty on NRA lobbyists.
$5 per head, 360 day open season, no bag limit. If still alive, no
bounty, go finish the job first.


Yeah, you have the bluster part right, Lennie.

Jeez, I hate gun control arguments. They're such a bunch of crap, and it
makes me sick that intelligent people like you and John can fall for such
transparent bull****.


(gun control argumentation, snipped)

When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils.


Really? How odd. It doesn't bother me one bit.


That doesn't surprise me at all, Robert.


He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids,

and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


I'm none of the above, and yet I understand the utility of
large capacity magazines.


Good for you.


This is an
off-the-reservation thing to say, but I believe they should be sacrificed

in
the name of sanity and social comity.


The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting or social comity.


I've read the 2nd Amendment, Robert.


I'm not a purist about anything,
except using natural hackle and dubbing on my dry flies, and I'm willing

to
toss big magazines over the side in the name of good sense,


Big magazines ARE very sensible.


Only to very strange people, Robert.


and as a symbol
of responsibility among gun owners. And I don't give a flying **** what
arguments Gunner makes about it. g


I understand that you don't care about the arguments put
forth by those who disagree with you. But when did that
detail ever stop anyone???


It certainly won't stop you. g

The 2nd Amendment guarantees my
right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family,
friends, neighbors and country. Large capacity magazines
make a firearm a better tool for that purpose, and thus are
a Good Thing(tm).


A dozen 75 mm howitzers loaded with cannister, ringing your property and
pointed outward, would be even better -- especially if you had them rigged
to motion detectors. Then you'd be free, and safe.

You'll notice that the military and
police, tasked with the same duty to defend, do not limit
themselves to 10 round magazines when 30 or 40 round
magazines are available.


Yeah, I've noticed that.

I see no reason I should either.


I'm not surprised that you don't see. I've seen your arguments before.

Ed Huntress


  #49   Report Post  
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:32:07 -0500, Cliff wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:20:55 -0800, 'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
wrote:

Ignore the fact of thousands of owners with guns with high
capacity mags that never commit a crime.


Neither do the many, many millions of people riding about
in aircraft each year .....


Non-sequitur.





Kirk

"Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly
  #50   Report Post  
David R. Birch
 
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Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Cliff wrote in message . ..

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:00:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Werent you one of the guys who was bitching about the loss of
freedoms because of the Patriot Act?


So a few Uzi-bangers with hand grenades is the answer?
What bunker are you from? Is it dark in there?



Check the news, six people killed in Wisconsin by a kook with a 20
round magazine in an assault rifle clone. Had the laws not been
changed to allow this idocy, maybe there wouldn't have been so many.
Legal in Wisconsin used to be no more than three in the clip, one in
the chamber. Shotguns, two in the mag and one in the chamber. That's
six people murdered by an out of state kook with a kooks weapon.
Justify that. (The old laws used to be balanced by practicality, not
radical paranoia from gun freaks.) Several others wounded, and among
the dead and wounded, only one, sporting type deer rifle. One woman
included, shot off the back of an ATV, and again, only ONE had a
rifle. Real men with guns shoot at unarmed women. typical
conservative action.


Wisconsin has never had a limitation on the size of magazine or number of rounds
in the gun for gun deer hunting. It now looks like Vang used a Saiga, an AK
action based rifle that looks something like an SKS.

David

David


  #51   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:43:39 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
calmly ranted:

"Cliff" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


How would that ever be a problem were they, per
statements, never used?


As I said, they create an image problem, and a real problem. The real
problem is that they make for dramatic stories that wind up totally
dissembling the facts about guns and crime...such as the story about the
deer hunter.

While he killed six people, six hundred were killed with handguns. And all
of the attention is being given to "assault weapons" while that is going on.

Someone has done a fine job of distracting attention from what's going on,
and you're playing right into it.


Whatever you do, don't look up the stats on the automobile death toll.

Silly Q: Should we outlaw buses due to their large "magazines", Ed?

Question 1: If you were inside your house and a mob came up to get
you, would you want a standard magazine or a high-capacity magazine in
your handgun or rifle to defend yourself? Be honest.

Question 2: Shouldn't we be working on the image problem instead of
outlawing perfectly harmless yet potentially lifesaving technology?

--
SAVE THE PARROTS! Eschew the use of poly!
----------
http://diversify.com Poly-free Website Development

  #52   Report Post  
Lennie the Lurker
 
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Gunner wrote in message . ..


Ayup. Seems our little yellow brother will be getting the big dirt
nap.

Get your facts straight weenie brain. Your open mouth continues to
gather foot.

How come CONservative and CONvict start with the same three letters?

You gonna pay back that liberal tainted money that they wasted keeping
your useless ass alive?
  #53   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:43:39 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
calmly ranted:

"Cliff" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.

How would that ever be a problem were they, per
statements, never used?


As I said, they create an image problem, and a real problem. The real
problem is that they make for dramatic stories that wind up totally
dissembling the facts about guns and crime...such as the story about the
deer hunter.

While he killed six people, six hundred were killed with handguns. And

all
of the attention is being given to "assault weapons" while that is going

on.

Someone has done a fine job of distracting attention from what's going

on,
and you're playing right into it.


Whatever you do, don't look up the stats on the automobile death toll.

Silly Q: Should we outlaw buses due to their large "magazines", Ed?

Question 1: If you were inside your house and a mob came up to get
you, would you want a standard magazine or a high-capacity magazine in
your handgun or rifle to defend yourself? Be honest.


Answer 1: Honesty says that no mob ever came up to get me in my house. And
it never will. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you don't understand the
political problem.


Question 2: Shouldn't we be working on the image problem instead of
outlawing perfectly harmless yet potentially lifesaving technology?


Go for it. I spent over a year of my spare time at it, doing a lot of hard
work. I believe I was on the right track, but I got no help. The people who
should have helped were producing cockamamie arguments in favor of 20-shot
magazines for hunting deer, etc. They undid everything I did. So they can go
screw themselves. They aren't worth the trouble.

And that's why I got out of my volunteer lobbying in 1991.

Ed Huntress


  #54   Report Post  
Joel Corwith
 
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"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
Gunner wrote in message

. ..


Ayup. Seems our little yellow brother will be getting the big dirt
nap.

Get your facts straight weenie brain. Your open mouth continues to
gather foot.

How come CONservative and CONvict start with the same three letters?

You gonna pay back that liberal tainted money that they wasted keeping
your useless ass alive?


Gee Dick, not enough with the daughter to keep you busy?



  #55   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:07:55 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
calmly ranted:

I said:
Question 1: If you were inside your house and a mob came up to get
you, would you want a standard magazine or a high-capacity magazine in
your handgun or rifle to defend yourself? Be honest.


Answer 1: Honesty says that no mob ever came up to get me in my house. And
it never will. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you don't understand the
political problem.


Ah, the Indestructible American denial bug. Well, when the Shrub
succeeds in getting 1.3 billion Muslims united against us and they
take out the American infrastructure, bringing anarchy to your door,
you just may change your stance on that...a bit too late. I'd rather
play it safe and stock up on necessities now.


Question 2: Shouldn't we be working on the image problem instead of
outlawing perfectly harmless yet potentially lifesaving technology?


Go for it. I spent over a year of my spare time at it, doing a lot of hard
work. I believe I was on the right track, but I got no help. The people who
should have helped were producing cockamamie arguments in favor of 20-shot
magazines for hunting deer, etc. They undid everything I did. So they can go
screw themselves. They aren't worth the trouble.


You seem to have inherited some of the illogic of the anti-gun mob.
Sorry about that.

Ciao!

--
SAVE THE PARROTS! Eschew the use of poly!
----------
http://diversify.com Poly-free Website Development



  #56   Report Post  
Robert Sturgeon
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:12 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

(snips)

The 2nd Amendment guarantees my
right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family,
friends, neighbors and country. Large capacity magazines
make a firearm a better tool for that purpose, and thus are
a Good Thing(tm).


A dozen 75 mm howitzers loaded with cannister, ringing your property and
pointed outward, would be even better -- especially if you had them rigged
to motion detectors. Then you'd be free, and safe.


It may surprise you to learn that individual Americans do
own howitzers, tanks, jet fighters, etc. I'd like to have a
howitzer, but I don't know exactly what I'd use it for. But
it would make a great conversation piece.

I know of a fellow who makes muzzle-loading cannons. I'm
sure he could make a breech-loader for me. Ah, some day...

Happy Thanksgiving and happy shooting!

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
  #57   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:12 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

(snips)

The 2nd Amendment guarantees my
right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family,
friends, neighbors and country. Large capacity magazines
make a firearm a better tool for that purpose, and thus are
a Good Thing(tm).


A dozen 75 mm howitzers loaded with cannister, ringing your property and
pointed outward, would be even better -- especially if you had them

rigged
to motion detectors. Then you'd be free, and safe.


It may surprise you to learn that individual Americans do
own howitzers, tanks, jet fighters, etc.


Oh, no, it doesn't surprise me. That's why I keep guns of my own -- because
there are people like that running around loose.

I'd like to have a
howitzer, but I don't know exactly what I'd use it for.


I'm sure that you could find some use for it, if you applied that vivid
imagination of yours. g

I know of a fellow who makes muzzle-loading cannons. I'm
sure he could make a breech-loader for me. Ah, some day...


Yeah, in a happier time, we'll all have them on our front lawns, aimed at
each of our neighbors. I'll bet THAT would get the guy next door to return
my paint scrapers. d8-)

Happy Thanksgiving and happy shooting!


To you, too, Robert.

Ed Huntress


  #58   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:07:55 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Question 1: If you were inside your house and a mob came up to get
you, would you want a standard magazine or a high-capacity magazine in
your handgun or rifle to defend yourself? Be honest.


Answer 1: Honesty says that no mob ever came up to get me in my house. And
it never will. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you don't understand the
political problem.


Id suggest you ask the Korean shopkeepers in LA about the utility of
high cap mags during the last riot.

Gunner



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes
  #59   Report Post  
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:54:17 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

I know of a fellow who makes muzzle-loading cannons. I'm
sure he could make a breech-loader for me. Ah, some day...


Yeah, in a happier time, we'll all have them on our front lawns, aimed at
each of our neighbors. I'll bet THAT would get the guy next door to return
my paint scrapers. d8-)


"In fact the Gods were as puzzled by all this as the wizards were,
but they were powerless to do anything and in any case were engaged in
an eons-old battle with the Ice Giants, who had refused to return the
lawnmower." - "The Light Fantastic" by Terry Pratchett

HTH
--
Cliff
  #60   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:43:39 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Cliff" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


How would that ever be a problem were they, per
statements, never used?


As I said, they create an image problem, and a real problem. The real
problem is that they make for dramatic stories that wind up totally
dissembling the facts about guns and crime...such as the story about the
deer hunter.

While he killed six people, six hundred were killed with handguns. And all
of the attention is being given to "assault weapons" while that is going on.


So because it's so usual that people are killed with "ordinary" guns
this one made the news, being so unusual? Or because of other reasons?

Someone has done a fine job of distracting attention from what's going on,
and you're playing right into it.


The pond thawed G.
--
Cliff



  #61   Report Post  
The Watcher
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:43:39 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Cliff" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


How would that ever be a problem were they, per
statements, never used?


As I said, they create an image problem, and a real problem. The real
problem is that they make for dramatic stories that wind up totally
dissembling the facts about guns and crime...such as the story about the
deer hunter.


Nope, the magazines don't create the image problem OR the real problem. The
problems are created by people who have irrational problems with these inanimate
objects.
(snip)
  #62   Report Post  
The Watcher
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:12 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

(snip)
When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils.


Really? How odd. It doesn't bother me one bit.


That doesn't surprise me at all, Robert.


Being upset by a magazine does seem strange to me, too.


He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids,

and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.


I'm none of the above, and yet I understand the utility of
large capacity magazines.


Good for you.


Another problem with acceding to the demands of the gun grabbers is that they
will want more. They keep saying "All we want is reasonable controls.", but
every time you turn around their "reasonable" controls become MORE controls.


This is an
off-the-reservation thing to say, but I believe they should be sacrificed

in
the name of sanity and social comity.


The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting or social comity.


I've read the 2nd Amendment, Robert.


Then you should agree that it isn't about deer hunting or social comity?

I'm not a purist about anything,
except using natural hackle and dubbing on my dry flies, and I'm willing

to
toss big magazines over the side in the name of good sense,


Big magazines ARE very sensible.


Only to very strange people, Robert.


Yeah, strange and logical people who want to accomplish the job of self-defense.
(snip)
A dozen 75 mm howitzers loaded with cannister, ringing your property and
pointed outward, would be even better -- especially if you had them rigged
to motion detectors. Then you'd be free, and safe.


Right, but does that have anything to do with THIS subject or did you just feel
like tossing a red herring in here?

You'll notice that the military and
police, tasked with the same duty to defend, do not limit
themselves to 10 round magazines when 30 or 40 round
magazines are available.


Yeah, I've noticed that.


But what do they know about using guns, right?

I see no reason I should either.


I'm not surprised that you don't see. I've seen your arguments before.


Nice comeback. :/
  #63   Report Post  
The Watcher
 
Posts: n/a
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:10:08 -0500, Cliff wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:32:49 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Something evidently you are totally unfamiliar with, basing
your posts on fear, paranoia and phobia and nothing else.


Tell us again why you *need* guns?


Tell us again why you think anybody needs to prove any "need" to YOU.

LMAO.

  #64   Report Post  
The Watcher
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:10:14 -0500, Cliff wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 06:26:03 GMT, Mike In Santa Cruz
wrote:

Most stolen guns are handguns

Victims report to the Victim Survey that in 53% of
the thefts of guns, handguns were stolen. The
FBI's stolen gun file's 2 million reports include
information on--
1.26 million handguns (almost 60%)
470,000 rifles (22%)
356,000 shotguns (17%).


Like I keep saying .... they make the owner a taget.


Saying it's one thing. Proving it's another. You ever gonna prove it?

In those ~2,000,000 cases, how many times did
the gun get used in self-defense?
Looks like about none.


Based on............?

How many thefts would NOT have happened,
including all associated injuries & deaths, had they
NOT had thse guns to steal?


Based on...........?

OTOH We now have probably ~2,000,000 more
people armed to protect themselves with guns,
do we not?


Dunno. You don't seem to know much of anything, do you? :/
  #65   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:07:55 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Question 1: If you were inside your house and a mob came up to get
you, would you want a standard magazine or a high-capacity magazine in
your handgun or rifle to defend yourself? Be honest.


Answer 1: Honesty says that no mob ever came up to get me in my house.

And
it never will. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you don't understand the
political problem.


Id suggest you ask the Korean shopkeepers in LA about the utility of
high cap mags during the last riot.


Well, if I ever decide to become a Korean shopkeeper, maybe I'll revisit the
question. As it is, Korean shopkeepers with high-capacity magazines on their
semiautos is not a happy thought. They do tend to be impassioned folks at
times.

Ed Huntress





  #66   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"The Watcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:43:39 -0500, "Ed Huntress"


wrote:

"Cliff" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:03:19 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.

How would that ever be a problem were they, per
statements, never used?


As I said, they create an image problem, and a real problem. The real
problem is that they make for dramatic stories that wind up totally
dissembling the facts about guns and crime...such as the story about the
deer hunter.


Nope, the magazines don't create the image problem OR the real problem.


Yeah, it did. Half the copy written about it concerns the size of the
magazine -- which everyone seems to think is different, but they all think
is big.

That's the big bogeyman, Watcher. While you're spinning cockamamie
justifications for ridiculous magazines, you're digging a big hole for gun
owners everywhere.

Have fun cooking up another story. Maybe, like Larry, you anticipate a
swarming hoard of Muslims who got past the US Navy, the US Air Force, the US
Army and the National Guard, and who decided to attack your front porch.

Pathological paranoia is not an argument that sits well in gun-control
debates.

Ed Huntress


  #67   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:


You reveal your ignorance here. This guy obviously did NOT go "spraying rounds
trying to make up for an lack of skill". He appeared to have some degree of
skill with the weapon and seems to have employed it fairly skillfully.


You're saying mass murder was his objective and you will defend to the
death his right to have the proper weapons to do it?

Thought so.
  #68   Report Post  
 
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:22:37 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:

Plonk!
  #69   Report Post  
PrecisionMachinisT
 
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wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:


You reveal your ignorance here. This guy obviously did NOT go "spraying

rounds
trying to make up for an lack of skill". He appeared to have some degree

of
skill with the weapon and seems to have employed it fairly skillfully.


You're saying mass murder was his objective and you will defend to the
death his right to have the proper weapons to do it?

Thought so.


http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/top/sto...,78130,00.html

"I killed them because they called me a GOOK"

--

SVL


  #70   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"The Watcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:12 -0500, "Ed Huntress"


wrote:

(snip)
When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from

some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils.

Really? How odd. It doesn't bother me one bit.


That doesn't surprise me at all, Robert.


Being upset by a magazine does seem strange to me, too.


Well, you guys do tend to run in packs. I hadn't noticed, until I saw
Robert, which newsgroups were involved here.



He's part of the problem -- that is,
both the image problem and a real problem, which is that violent kids,

and
nutballs, and murderers love 'dem big magazines.

I'm none of the above, and yet I understand the utility of
large capacity magazines.


Good for you.


Another problem with acceding to the demands of the gun grabbers is that

they
will want more. They keep saying "All we want is reasonable controls.",

but
every time you turn around their "reasonable" controls become MORE

controls.

True enough. What I'm talking about is the good sens of gun owners, not of
anti-gunners.



This is an
off-the-reservation thing to say, but I believe they should be

sacrificed
in
the name of sanity and social comity.

The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting or social comity.


I've read the 2nd Amendment, Robert.


Then you should agree that it isn't about deer hunting or social comity?

I'm not a purist about anything,
except using natural hackle and dubbing on my dry flies, and I'm

willing
to
toss big magazines over the side in the name of good sense,

Big magazines ARE very sensible.


Only to very strange people, Robert.


Yeah, strange and logical people who want to accomplish the job of

self-defense.

Well, maybe you have a scenario like the one Larry was talking about to
suggest to us. I feel quite comfortable with the standard magazine in my .45
ACP, and a couple of loaded ones in my pocket. How many do you need to feel
comfortable? Which hoard is out to get YOU?

Ed Huntress




  #71   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
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"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:


You reveal your ignorance here. This guy obviously did NOT go "spraying

rounds
trying to make up for an lack of skill". He appeared to have some

degree
of
skill with the weapon and seems to have employed it fairly skillfully.


You're saying mass murder was his objective and you will defend to the
death his right to have the proper weapons to do it?

Thought so.


http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/top/sto...,78130,00.html

"I killed them because they called me a GOOK"


Hmm. Another blow for good judgment on the part of our gun-toting fellow
man...

Ed Huntress


  #72   Report Post  
PrecisionMachinisT
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:


You reveal your ignorance here. This guy obviously did NOT go

"spraying
rounds
trying to make up for an lack of skill". He appeared to have some

degree
of
skill with the weapon and seems to have employed it fairly

skillfully.

You're saying mass murder was his objective and you will defend to the
death his right to have the proper weapons to do it?

Thought so.


http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/top/sto...,78130,00.html

"I killed them because they called me a GOOK"


Hmm. Another blow for good judgment on the part of our gun-toting fellow
man...


Yup.......

They shoulda called him wop, spic or perhaps maybe pollack instead, then
this all probly woulda never happened.

--

SVL


  #73   Report Post  
The Watcher
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:26:55 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

(snip)
Nope, the magazines don't create the image problem OR the real problem.


Yeah, it did. Half the copy written about it concerns the size of the
magazine -- which everyone seems to think is different, but they all think
is big.


So? If you know anything about problem-solving, you'd know the first step in
problem-solving is to identify the problem. No matter if half the copy IS
written about the size of the magazine, that still doesn't mean the size of the
magazine is the problem. Maybe the problem is the crazy people who have
irrational reactions to high-capacity magazines.
Here's an analogy for you:
If you have a deathly fear of snakes, is the problem snakes or your fear of
them? Suppose you manage to get treatment for an irrational fear of snakes and
get it dealt with so you no longer fear them. The problem goes away without
anything happening to the snakes, so apparently, the snakes weren't the problem
in the first place.

That's the big bogeyman, Watcher. While you're spinning cockamamie
justifications for ridiculous magazines, you're digging a big hole for gun
owners everywhere.


I spin no justifications for anything, and don't dig holes for them either.

Have fun cooking up another story. Maybe, like Larry, you anticipate a
swarming hoard of Muslims who got past the US Navy, the US Air Force, the US
Army and the National Guard, and who decided to attack your front porch.


Nope. You just keep pulling these strange ideas from nowhere, eh? Free
association?

Pathological paranoia is not an argument that sits well in gun-control
debates.


Neither is free association and your neuroses.

  #74   Report Post  
The Watcher
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:18:34 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"The Watcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:59:12 -0500, "Ed Huntress"


wrote:

(snip)
When I see somebody at the range with a big clip hanging down from

some
little semiauto gun, my blood boils.

Really? How odd. It doesn't bother me one bit.

That doesn't surprise me at all, Robert.


Being upset by a magazine does seem strange to me, too.


Well, you guys do tend to run in packs. I hadn't noticed, until I saw
Robert, which newsgroups were involved here.


Well, if you can't address the argument, attack the messenger, right? Whatever
works(or distracts), right?
(snip)

True enough. What I'm talking about is the good sens of gun owners, not of
anti-gunners.


Nope, you're talking about caving in to the demands of gun grabbers. I'm a gun
owner and I have no desire to give up high-capacity magazine because some people
don't like them or have neurotic problems with them. Other peoples' neuroses are
not MY problems.
(snip)

Well, maybe you have a scenario like the one Larry was talking about to
suggest to us. I feel quite comfortable with the standard magazine in my .45
ACP, and a couple of loaded ones in my pocket. How many do you need to feel
comfortable? Which hoard is out to get YOU?


Do you mean "horde"? Either way, it doesn't matter. I didn't see anywhere in my
copy of the 2nd Amendment where I need to justify anything to you or anyone
else. So, you want to be able to carry 21 rounds for your .45, but have a
problem with other people being able to carry 20 or 30-round magazines for their
weapons? Doesn't sound too logical to me. :/

  #76   Report Post  
Dave Mundt
 
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Greetings and Salutations....
(feeling that I am walking into a flame war where
rational thought is a waste of breath) I wanted to touch
base on this on this as it seems to be one of those "Aliens
abducted my sister" stories.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:28:51 -0600, e wrote:

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:


You reveal your ignorance here. This guy obviously did NOT go "spraying rounds
trying to make up for an lack of skill". He appeared to have some degree of
skill with the weapon and seems to have employed it fairly skillfully.


You're saying mass murder was his objective and you will defend to the
death his right to have the proper weapons to do it?

Thought so.


At this point in time, I have googled a number of stories on
the incident, and, I have found a foggy battleground. As far as I
can tell, though, these facts seem to be mentioned in enough places
that they are likely near the "truth".
So...Here are some of MY observations.

1) The shooter, Chai Soua Vang, was on private property, in
a tree stand put in place by some other hunter.
2) He was "asked to leave" by the group of hunters that DID
have permission to hunt on the property, when they returned to the
area.
3) Shots were fired, Ending up with five people dead, some
with a couple of bullets in them.
4) It appears that Chai had come down out of the stand, and
was on the ground when the shootings happened, and, from the fact
that the bodies were scattered over a 75 or more yard area, there
was, perhaps, some "hide & seek" going on.
5) In at least one place Vang is reported as saying that
he did not fire first...
6) ONE story mentions that the gun could hold 20 rounds, and
several of them mention that the gun was empty when apprehended by
the cops. Since at most, they won't recover more than 12 or 14
bullets from bodies...that would mean that about 25% of them stuck
in trees out in the woods someplace...or...he did not have a 20
round clip in the rifle.
7) Vang is listed as being 36 years old. That would have
made him a young man, in Cambodia, at about the time that the USA
was pulling out. He is also Hmong, which means that he and his
folks were the ones WORKING with the US...I suspect he saw some
pretty nasty stuff go down at a very formative time in his life.
8) There are some notes that recently there has been
an influx of Hmong to the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, where Vang is
from, and, that there has been enough friction between the Hmong and
other (white) residents that the police had assigned a Hmong officer
to work with the situation.

So...I could easily see a sitaution where Vang in alone
in the woods, and, is confronted by a group of testosterone (and
perhaps beer) loaded hunters with weapons. I suspect they might
not have used politically correct or tactful language in requesting
that he leave the property. I could also see this easily escalating
into a full-scale fire-fight because everyone started pushing.
Now...that does not excuse the deaths, but, it would certainly
explain what happened.
I have a couple of questions myself that I have not seen any
answers for, and I would like to hear more about:

1) The stories imply that Vang was the only one
shooting. What is the likelihood of that, and, how many
of US think that these hunters would simply scatter without
returning fire? I would like to know how many rounds THEY
got off.
2) It would be interesting to know what was said and
done in that hazy period between the time that Vang was discovered
in the tree stand, and, when he ran out of ammo.
3) Why is it that the reports were that the folks
killed were shot in the back? I could find no detailed information
about the bullet paths for most of them, but, the ones that I did
find indicate that they were shot from the front.
4) Was Vang's rifle a semi-automatic, or had it been
illegally modified to be a full automatic?

In any case, this is a terrible tragedy for the folks
in Wisconsin, for Vang's family, and for the Hmong community
in Mn. It smells more to me of a guy being tired and scared and
pushed to the point of snapping, than (as has been portrayed
here in this thread and a few other agenda loaded places) a
madman with a terrible weapon out to hunt the ultimate prey - man.

I suppose we can never know the truth there, but
hopefully, eventually, we will get some more truth about what
happened. This is an aberation, though, and hardly a reason
to enact more unenforced gun laws and to remove yet MORE
freedoms from the American citizen...yet a lot of folks will
and have jumped on the bandwagon calling for JUST that result
Things to ponder on
Regards
Dave Mundt

  #78   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:

And the idiots that think outlawing extended magazines because some people use
them in crimes is sound logic don't seem to want to apply the same "logic" to
all the other things that are used in crimes. I guess they don't really think
the logic is valid, but are just looking for an excuse to further their agenda.
Too bad they're not honest enough to come right out and say so. Being
intellectually dishonest like that really tends to make many people distrust
anything they say later.


All of which makes one wonder what possible valid use those things
have.
Are you going to claim that they make fine hammers?

Please supply some logic here. A bit of foorp would be nice too.
--
Cliff
  #79   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:

Untainted fact, Ed, six people are dead because one kook with a huge
magazine was allowed to legally carry that piece of **** into the
woods, and commit murder. Six dead, others wounded, one huge clip
against only one sporting weapon. Either admit that those huge clips
aren't needed,


Needed? My copy of the Constitution doesn't have a requirement that anything
pass a standard of "need". Does yours?


What does it say about your neighbor's craven desire for nukes?
Those are "arms" too, right?
--
Cliff
  #80   Report Post  
Dave Mundt
 
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Greetings and Salutations...

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:28:20 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:53:41 GMT, (The Watcher)
wrote:


You reveal your ignorance here. This guy obviously did NOT go "spraying

rounds
trying to make up for an lack of skill". He appeared to have some

degree
of
skill with the weapon and seems to have employed it fairly skillfully.

You're saying mass murder was his objective and you will defend to the
death his right to have the proper weapons to do it?

Thought so.


http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/top/sto...,78130,00.html

"I killed them because they called me a GOOK"


Hmm. Another blow for good judgment on the part of our gun-toting fellow
man...

Ed Huntress


Well, inflammatory headlines sell papers. Since the report
is that there had been a NUMBER of incidents between asian and white
hunters in the area over the past few years, perhaps there is quite
a bit more to find out. The article also calls into question the
number of rounds in Vang's gun, as it reports he had to reload five or
six rounds...hardly the killing machine portrayed elsewhere.
Still, there is a lot more of the story to come out,
I think...and I am still not convinced that any kind of a gun ban
should show up from this.
Regards
Dave Mundt

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