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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Submerged softwood?
Hi folks,
I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? Anyone know? I am assuming that the wood is not coated or treated, but my question refers to the behaviour of the wood before decay takes place. Thanks! Chris |
#2
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Submerged softwood?
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:47:13 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Tidy
wrote: Hi folks, I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? Anyone know? I am assuming that the wood is not coated or treated, but my question refers to the behaviour of the wood before decay takes place. Thanks! Chris It can indeed. Old lumber holding ponds are proof of this. __ "Journalists are extremely rare and shouldn’t be harmed, but propagandists are everywhere and should be hunted for sport" Yeah..with no bag limit. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#3
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Submerged softwood?
Christopher Tidy on Tue, 11 Aug 2020
03:47:13 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Hi folks, I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? Anyone know? I am assuming that the wood is not coated or treated, but my question refers to the behaviour of the wood before decay takes place. Generally water soaked wood will sink. It may take a while, but some does. OTOH, some doesn't and I have seen logging rafts left "too long" which have plants growing on/in them. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#4
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Submerged softwood?
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
... Hi folks, I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? Anyone know? I am assuming that the wood is not coated or treated, but my question refers to the behaviour of the wood before decay takes place. Thanks! Chris ====================== https://www.ecohome.net/guides/1473/...the-log-drive/ |
#5
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Submerged softwood?
Thanks for the lumber pond tip and link. That's a good story there!
So wooden ships only continue to float after years because the planks expand and stop the interior of the hull filling with water, even if the individual planks would sink on their own? Chris |
#6
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Submerged softwood?
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:44:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Tidy
wrote: Thanks for the lumber pond tip and link. That's a good story there! So wooden ships only continue to float after years because the planks expand and stop the interior of the hull filling with water, even if the individual planks would sink on their own? Chris All ships "float" because the amount of water that they displace equals the gross weight of the ship :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#7
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Submerged softwood?
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:47:16 AM UTC-7, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks, I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? In Lake Washington, there's some old-growth logs that basically DID sink; a few that are near shore have a few percent of wood above the water, The area was logged, and the lake used for transport, around 1900. I'm told that Salt Lake had some rail trestle timbers recovered in recent decades, that hadn't rotted. |
#8
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Submerged softwood?
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:47:13 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Tidy
wrote: Hi folks, I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? Anyone know? I am assuming that the wood is not coated or treated, but my question refers to the behaviour of the wood before decay takes place. Thanks! Chris Some species, yes. Cypress and pine. |
#9
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Submerged softwood?
Christopher Tidy on Tue, 11 Aug 2020
16:44:09 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Thanks for the lumber pond tip and link. That's a good story there! So wooden ships only continue to float after years because the planks expand and stop the interior of the hull filling with water, even if the individual planks would sink on their own? Ships float because they displace more water than they weigh. And no matter how tight those edges are, wooden boats leak. which is why there are so many ways to make the hull water tight, starting with packing the seams and on to tarring the bottoms. if you fill a wooden boat with rocks and let the water in, it will sink. You can then dive down and remove the rocks and the boat will float. Assuming the wood isn't so water logged (or dense) that it won't float. I remember something about building the railroad through the Amazon Jungle. The main engineer would just cut down trees, if the logs sank he'd fish them out and use that wood for ties. Another instance where "exotic woods" were used for mundane purposes because there was lots of it and it was the only wood around. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#10
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Submerged softwood?
I remember something about building the railroad through the
Amazon Jungle. The main engineer would just cut down trees, if the logs sank he'd fish them out and use that wood for ties. Another instance where "exotic woods" were used for mundane purposes because there was lots of it and it was the only wood around. Can you remember where you heard that story? I'd like to read more about it. Thanks! |
#11
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Submerged softwood?
Some species, yes. Cypress and pine.
Anyone know which species of lumber sank on the North American log drives? Looking at the black-and-white pictures, the bark looks like some kind of pine, but it's hard to be sure. Chris |
#12
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Submerged softwood?
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
... Thanks for the lumber pond tip and link. That's a good story there! So wooden ships only continue to float after years because the planks expand and stop the interior of the hull filling with water, even if the individual planks would sink on their own? Chris ================================================ The classic definition of a ship is "a hole in the water into which you pour money." Even very old iron ships stay afloat if you pour in enough money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warrior_(1860) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Olympia_(C-6) Likewise it's funding, not physics, that keeps spacecraft up. |
#13
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Submerged softwood?
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
... On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:47:13 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Tidy wrote: Hi folks, I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? Anyone know? I am assuming that the wood is not coated or treated, but my question refers to the behaviour of the wood before decay takes place. Thanks! Chris Some species, yes. Cypress and pine. ====================================== Oak survives for centuries under water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship) |
#14
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Submerged softwood?
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:47:13 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Tidy
wrote: Hi folks, I know this isn't quite metalwork, but is it a shop-related question and nothing to do with politics, so here goes... If you take a piece of light softwood, such as pine or fir, and keep it submerged under water for a really long time - months or years - does it eventually absorb enough water so that it no longer floats? Anyone know? I am assuming that the wood is not coated or treated, but my question refers to the behaviour of the wood before decay takes place. Thanks! Chris Yeah, softwoods will become waterlogged and sink. If they sink into cold oxygen free water of the right PH they will not rot. Even if the bark is on the tree. In Lake Washington, for example, there are a lot of trees that slid into the lake as they rode a huge landslide. If I remember correctly the landslide occurred about a 1000 years ago and was cause by a really big earthquake. The trees are owned by the state. About 25 0r 30 years ago, I think it was, a fellow was pulling these trees up in the dead of night because the old growth timber is so valuable. I think the trees were hoisted onto a barge. Anyway, he got busted. Ah, here's a link: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/19...-forest-faces/ Eric |
#15
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Submerged softwood?
Christopher Tidy on Wed, 12 Aug 2020
03:14:40 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I remember something about building the railroad through the Amazon Jungle. The main engineer would just cut down trees, if the logs sank he'd fish them out and use that wood for ties. Another instance where "exotic woods" were used for mundane purposes because there was lots of it and it was the only wood around. Can you remember where you heard that story? I'd like to read more about it. No. Sorry, One of those side digressions in an article about something else entirely. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#16
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Submerged softwood?
"Jim Wilkins" on Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:40:29
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: "Christopher Tidy" wrote in message ... Thanks for the lumber pond tip and link. That's a good story there! So wooden ships only continue to float after years because the planks expand and stop the interior of the hull filling with water, even if the individual planks would sink on their own? Chris =============================================== = The classic definition of a ship is "a hole in the water into which you pour money." Even very old iron ships stay afloat if you pour in enough money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warrior_(1860) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Olympia_(C-6) Likewise it's funding, not physics, that keeps spacecraft up. And the prototype of an aircraft will fly once the weight of the paperwork exceeds the Gross Take-off Weight. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#17
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Submerged softwood?
Christopher Tidy on Wed, 12 Aug 2020
03:16:55 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Some species, yes. Cypress and pine. Anyone know which species of lumber sank on the North American log drives? Looking at the black-and-white pictures, the bark looks like some kind of pine, but it's hard to be sure. Depends on where the logging occurred. Lake Washington (Seattle) is "full" of Fir trees. East of the Cascades it is pines. So what sank was what was local. Chris -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#18
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Submerged softwood?
I've been thinking about this topic for a week or two, and I was curious, so I submerged a block of softwood (pine, I think, but perhaps fir) in a tank of writing ink for 8 days.
Today I split the block of wood open with a chisel to see how far the ink had penetrated into the wood. Something like 3 to 6 millimetres parallel to the grain, but only a fraction of a millimetre perpendicular to the grain. The ink also soaks much deeper into the dark rings (summer growth, perhaps - does anyone know?) where the wood is more porous. Here are some eye-candy pictures of my experiment for the wood fans to enjoy... http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood1.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood2.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood3.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood4.jpg Thanks for the stories! Chris |
#19
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Submerged softwood?
On 13/08/2020 00:30, Christopher Tidy wrote:
I've been thinking about this topic for a week or two, and I was curious, so I submerged a block of softwood (pine, I think, but perhaps fir) in a tank of writing ink for 8 days. Today I split the block of wood open with a chisel to see how far the ink had penetrated into the wood. Something like 3 to 6 millimetres parallel to the grain, but only a fraction of a millimetre perpendicular to the grain. The ink also soaks much deeper into the dark rings (summer growth, perhaps - does anyone know?) where the wood is more porous. Here are some eye-candy pictures of my experiment for the wood fans to enjoy... http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood1.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood2.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood3.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood4.jpg Thanks for the stories! Chris It depends on how the wood cells break down after felling which depends on the species and conditions. I don't know about soft woods but hard wood such as oak varies a lot with English and European oak being durable outdoors and American white oak but American red oak has cell walls which break down readily and allow the wood to be permeated easily which results in a short life outdoors, I have seen it mentioned that you can blow smoke through a red oak plank end to end due to this, one wood worker I know said 3-4 years for red oak outdoors and it's staring to show rot, I have an English oak fence post at the boundary of my property which is about 70 years old and while degraded is still largely solid. |
#20
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Submerged softwood?
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 03:16:55 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Tidy
wrote: Some species, yes. Cypress and pine. Anyone know which species of lumber sank on the North American log drives? Looking at the black-and-white pictures, the bark looks like some kind of pine, but it's hard to be sure. Chris Likely white pine |
#21
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Submerged softwood?
Christopher Tidy on Wed, 12 Aug 2020
16:30:09 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I've been thinking about this topic for a week or two, and I was curious, so I submerged a block of softwood (pine, I think, but perhaps fir) in a tank of writing ink for 8 days. Today I split the block of wood open with a chisel to see how far the ink had penetrated into the wood. Something like 3 to 6 millimetres parallel to the grain, but only a fraction of a millimetre perpendicular to the grain. The ink also soaks much deeper into the dark rings (summer growth, perhaps - does anyone know?) where the wood is more porous. Here are some eye-candy pictures of my experiment for the wood fans to enjoy... http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood1.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood2.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood3.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood4.jpg Thanks for the stories! Chris Cool. Now, what's your conditions? Ack, my geek side emerges, "To Do A Proper Test!" 1) Compare a block free floating in the ink with the grain parallel to the surface, to one free floating with the grain perpendicular. 2) another set floating against a "stop" of some sort, partially submerged. 3) another set held completely under, but this spins off further experiments where the factor would be how deep the ink is, to gauge the effects of pressure on the penetration. Of course, comparisons could/should also be made of the moisture content of the wood before and after. And track the temperature of the ink solution as well as air pressure. Then repeat for different species of wood (pine, fir, oak, poplar, etc.) Hmmm, sounds like the sort of thing one could get a grant for the experiment in a Forestry Graduate program, or Engineering. After all, is that not important information for such processes as "pressure treating lumber"? _Permeability of solutions in processed select lumber species._ enjoy pyotr -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#22
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Submerged softwood?
Am Freitag, 14. August 2020 15:57:53 UTC+2 schrieb pyotr filipivich:
Christopher Tidy on Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:30:09 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I've been thinking about this topic for a week or two, and I was curious, so I submerged a block of softwood (pine, I think, but perhaps fir) in a tank of writing ink for 8 days. Today I split the block of wood open with a chisel to see how far the ink had penetrated into the wood. Something like 3 to 6 millimetres parallel to the grain, but only a fraction of a millimetre perpendicular to the grain. The ink also soaks much deeper into the dark rings (summer growth, perhaps - does anyone know?) where the wood is more porous. Here are some eye-candy pictures of my experiment for the wood fans to enjoy... http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood1.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood2.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood3.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood4.jpg Thanks for the stories! Chris Cool. Now, what's your conditions? I placed the block (cube with a 60 mm side length) in a sandwich box filled with ink for 16 days. The block was held under the surface using a small chunk of foam. I turned the block over every four days, so it had four days with each end-grain surface at the bottom, and four days with each of two opposing cross-grain surfaces at the bottom. If I remember correctly (I don't have the paper in front of me), the moisture content was 13% before the experiment. Afterwards it was off the scale, as you might expect, and the wood had absorbed about 25 grams of ink. It took about a week until the weight returned to its original value (about 85 grams) and the remaining dye didn't seem to affect this figure. I'm planning to repeat the experiment (probably with water rather than ink), but coat some surfaces of the blocks with two-component epoxy paint, to determine the proportions of the water absorbed through the end-grain and cross-grain surfaces. I might also try the same with some blocks of okan instead of pine, but I suspect this will absorb very little water. Ack, my geek side emerges, "To Do A Proper Test!" 1) Compare a block free floating in the ink with the grain parallel to the surface, to one free floating with the grain perpendicular. 2) another set floating against a "stop" of some sort, partially submerged. 3) another set held completely under, but this spins off further experiments where the factor would be how deep the ink is, to gauge the effects of pressure on the penetration. Of course, comparisons could/should also be made of the moisture content of the wood before and after. And track the temperature of the ink solution as well as air pressure. Then repeat for different species of wood (pine, fir, oak, poplar, etc.) Hmmm, sounds like the sort of thing one could get a grant for the experiment in a Forestry Graduate program, or Engineering. After all, is that not important information for such processes as "pressure treating lumber"? _Permeability of solutions in processed select lumber species._ enjoy pyotr -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#23
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Submerged softwood?
I might also be tempted to run the same experiment with some vacuum, as I suspect the trapped air hinders the absorption, but I don't want to vaporise the ink and fill my vacuum pump with water...
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#24
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Submerged softwood?
Christopher Tidy on Fri, 14 Aug 2020
09:47:03 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Am Freitag, 14. August 2020 15:57:53 UTC+2 schrieb pyotr filipivich: Christopher Tidy on Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:30:09 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I've been thinking about this topic for a week or two, and I was curious, so I submerged a block of softwood (pine, I think, but perhaps fir) in a tank of writing ink for 8 days. Today I split the block of wood open with a chisel to see how far the ink had penetrated into the wood. Something like 3 to 6 millimetres parallel to the grain, but only a fraction of a millimetre perpendicular to the grain. The ink also soaks much deeper into the dark rings (summer growth, perhaps - does anyone know?) where the wood is more porous. Here are some eye-candy pictures of my experiment for the wood fans to enjoy... http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood1.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood2.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood3.jpg http://sphinx.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt...aked_Wood4.jpg Thanks for the stories! Chris Cool. Now, what's your conditions? I placed the block (cube with a 60 mm side length) in a sandwich box filled with ink for 16 days. The block was held under the surface using a small chunk of foam. I turned the block over every four days, so it had four days with each end-grain surface at the bottom, and four days with each of two opposing cross-grain surfaces at the bottom. If I remember correctly (I don't have the paper in front of me), the moisture content was 13% before the experiment. Afterwards it was off the scale, as you might expect, and the wood had absorbed about 25 grams of ink. It took about a week until the weight returned to its original value (about 85 grams) and the remaining dye didn't seem to affect this figure. I'm planning to repeat the experiment (probably with water rather than ink), but coat some surfaces of the blocks with two-component epoxy paint, to determine the proportions of the water absorbed through the end-grain and cross-grain surfaces. I might also try the same with some blocks of okan instead of pine, but I suspect this will absorb very little water. It looks to me that there is very little cross grain absorption. Which is to be expected, trees move water 'vertically' with the grain. Hence the reason for painting the end of an exposed 'stick' to prevent checking, etc. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#25
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Submerged softwood?
Christopher Tidy on Fri, 14 Aug 2020
09:55:58 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I might also be tempted to run the same experiment with some vacuum, as I suspect the trapped air hinders the absorption, but I don't want to vaporise the ink and fill my vacuum pump with water... "But, but, but Science!" De watering the vacuum line is "Merely Engineering(tm)!" (aka "just money") I can see a method of a vacuum pump hooked to a tank, which gets pumped out, the line to the pump closed, then the line to the sample chamber open. But as you said, you'll still be pumping water out of solution, thus changing the concentration. Of course, you could seal the sample so that it gets the vacuum, and not the entire container. "Why don't you try that and write it up?" B-) -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#26
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Submerged softwood?
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... Christopher Tidy on Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I might also be tempted to run the same experiment with some vacuum, as I suspect the trapped air hinders the absorption, but I don't want to vaporise the ink and fill my vacuum pump with water... "But, but, but Science!" De watering the vacuum line is "Merely Engineering(tm)!" (aka "just money") I can see a method of a vacuum pump hooked to a tank, which gets pumped out, the line to the pump closed, then the line to the sample chamber open. But as you said, you'll still be pumping water out of solution, thus changing the concentration. Of course, you could seal the sample so that it gets the vacuum, and not the entire container. "Why don't you try that and write it up?" B-) - pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." ================================================== ====== With that setup you can also fill the wood with plastic resin. https://www.instructables.com/id/Res...bilizing-Wood/ I boil wood in paraffin wax to weatherproof it for outdoor use, like pulley sheaves and antenna insulators. The above-boiling wax makes the water sizzle out. The urethane wax in toilet bowl rings is less brittle at low temperatures. I've been using a small Gast rotary vane pump on my vacuum oven if there was much water to remove, and running it open afterwards to dry it. Has anyone had a problem doing this? |
#27
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Submerged softwood?
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:12:19 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: "pyotr filipivich" wrote in message .. . Christopher Tidy on Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I might also be tempted to run the same experiment with some vacuum, as I suspect the trapped air hinders the absorption, but I don't want to vaporise the ink and fill my vacuum pump with water... "But, but, but Science!" De watering the vacuum line is "Merely Engineering(tm)!" (aka "just money") I can see a method of a vacuum pump hooked to a tank, which gets pumped out, the line to the pump closed, then the line to the sample chamber open. But as you said, you'll still be pumping water out of solution, thus changing the concentration. Of course, you could seal the sample so that it gets the vacuum, and not the entire container. "Why don't you try that and write it up?" B-) - pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." ================================================= ======= With that setup you can also fill the wood with plastic resin. https://www.instructables.com/id/Res...bilizing-Wood/ I boil wood in paraffin wax to weatherproof it for outdoor use, like pulley sheaves and antenna insulators. The above-boiling wax makes the water sizzle out. The urethane wax in toilet bowl rings is less brittle at low temperatures. I've been using a small Gast rotary vane pump on my vacuum oven if there was much water to remove, and running it open afterwards to dry it. Has anyone had a problem doing this? In a lab setup where water in a vacuum was involed, we used a flask of silica gel between the chamber and the pump to dry the exhasted air ahead of the pump. |
#28
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Submerged softwood?
"Gerry" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:12:19 -0400, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: "pyotr filipivich" wrote in message .. . Christopher Tidy on Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I might also be tempted to run the same experiment with some vacuum, as I suspect the trapped air hinders the absorption, but I don't want to vaporise the ink and fill my vacuum pump with water... "But, but, but Science!" De watering the vacuum line is "Merely Engineering(tm)!" (aka "just money") I can see a method of a vacuum pump hooked to a tank, which gets pumped out, the line to the pump closed, then the line to the sample chamber open. But as you said, you'll still be pumping water out of solution, thus changing the concentration. Of course, you could seal the sample so that it gets the vacuum, and not the entire container. "Why don't you try that and write it up?" B-) - pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." ================================================= ======= With that setup you can also fill the wood with plastic resin. https://www.instructables.com/id/Res...bilizing-Wood/ I boil wood in paraffin wax to weatherproof it for outdoor use, like pulley sheaves and antenna insulators. The above-boiling wax makes the water sizzle out. The urethane wax in toilet bowl rings is less brittle at low temperatures. I've been using a small Gast rotary vane pump on my vacuum oven if there was much water to remove, and running it open afterwards to dry it. Has anyone had a problem doing this? In a lab setup where water in a vacuum was involed, we used a flask of silica gel between the chamber and the pump to dry the exhasted air ahead of the pump. ================================================== === Then you need to desiccate or throw away the silica gel. In a lab setup I wasn't paying for electricity or water+sewer to run a faucet aspirator. At home I try to accomplish these hobby tasks with a limited amount of recycled lab gear and alternate energy such as wood heat in winter and solar heat in summer. |
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Submerged softwood?
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:12:19 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: With that setup you can also fill the wood with plastic resin. https://www.instructables.com/id/Res...bilizing-Wood/ I boil wood in paraffin wax to weatherproof it for outdoor use, like pulley sheaves and antenna insulators. The above-boiling wax makes the water sizzle out. The urethane wax in toilet bowl rings is less brittle at low temperatures. I've been using a small Gast rotary vane pump on my vacuum oven if there was much water to remove, and running it open afterwards to dry it. Has anyone had a problem doing this? Ah, you might make a good beekeeper Recently took up this rather eccentric hobby and wish I could afford to set up a wax dipping tank large enough for assembled hive boxes. Hopefully will eventually have a shallow pan that can do bottom boards since they rot out first. Today most are using paraffin and microcrystalline wax 50/50. Apparently at one time 2 parts paraffin to one part gum rosin was standard. This guy, http://bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm uses natural beeswax instead of paraffin. Wonder if you could combine heat and vacuum to get the wax even deeper into the wood? Not aware of anyone doing this. As to resin stabilized wood, go to a blade show and there will be venders selling knife scales in every wood you can imagine. As well as weird stuff like pine cones and corn cobs. -- William |
#30
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Submerged softwood?
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 07:37:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: "Gerry" wrote in message ... On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:12:19 -0400, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: "pyotr filipivich" wrote in message . .. Christopher Tidy on Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I might also be tempted to run the same experiment with some vacuum, as I suspect the trapped air hinders the absorption, but I don't want to vaporise the ink and fill my vacuum pump with water... "But, but, but Science!" De watering the vacuum line is "Merely Engineering(tm)!" (aka "just money") I can see a method of a vacuum pump hooked to a tank, which gets pumped out, the line to the pump closed, then the line to the sample chamber open. But as you said, you'll still be pumping water out of solution, thus changing the concentration. Of course, you could seal the sample so that it gets the vacuum, and not the entire container. "Why don't you try that and write it up?" B-) - pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." ================================================ ======== With that setup you can also fill the wood with plastic resin. https://www.instructables.com/id/Res...bilizing-Wood/ I boil wood in paraffin wax to weatherproof it for outdoor use, like pulley sheaves and antenna insulators. The above-boiling wax makes the water sizzle out. The urethane wax in toilet bowl rings is less brittle at low temperatures. I've been using a small Gast rotary vane pump on my vacuum oven if there was much water to remove, and running it open afterwards to dry it. Has anyone had a problem doing this? In a lab setup where water in a vacuum was involed, we used a flask of silica gel between the chamber and the pump to dry the exhasted air ahead of the pump. ================================================= ==== Then you need to desiccate or throw away the silica gel. In a lab setup I wasn't paying for electricity or water+sewer to run a faucet aspirator. At home I try to accomplish these hobby tasks with a limited amount of recycled lab gear and alternate energy such as wood heat in winter and solar heat in summer. dry the silica gel in an oven. |
#31
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Submerged softwood?
"William Bagwell" wrote in message
... On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:12:19 -0400, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: ...... Wonder if you could combine heat and vacuum to get the wax even deeper into the wood? Not aware of anyone doing this. -- William ================================ Dry heat and vacuum before adding the wax should work, but I don't want wax vapor condensing and clogging the tubing and pump. The molten wax can be heated well above 212F, so the submerged wood should be sterile before the wax seal its ends. I think the large quantity of steam that escapes removes most of the air as well. I leave the wood submerged until the bubbling nearly stops, then cool the pot slowly. |
#32
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Submerged softwood?
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:03:08 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: Dry heat and vacuum before adding the wax should work, but I don't want wax vapor condensing and clogging the tubing and pump. Yes should have thought of that. pyotr filipivich sums it up nicely up thread a bit. Do not need to start any more boondoggles. Not even sure our vacuum pump still works, has not been used in at least 27 years. If it does have a much better use for it in the planning stages. The molten wax can be heated well above 212F, so the submerged wood should be sterile before the wax seal its ends. I think the large quantity of steam that escapes removes most of the air as well. I leave the wood submerged until the bubbling nearly stops, then cool the pot slowly. Though of a way to dip just the corners of assembled hive bodies last night. A "V" shaped trough. End grain where they are finger jointed together is where most rot starts so it should work. And take less than $50 verses $500+ to fill it with wax. -- William |
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