Argh! Emergency de-rusting of pattern welded blade
 

I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.


This is a scan of the worst of it:

http://h00050207be9f.ne.client2.attb.../RustSpots.jpg (119k)

The grey spots in the scan are slightly browner in real life.

Tips/hints on proper removal?

I'm s'posed to deliver it tomorrow (Wednesday). 8-o



--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

You are so screwed!....sorry...

Are the stains oxidation or from the leather? Maybe a cleaner like 409 for
stain or muratic or HCl for rust.
in a pinch try "Lime Away", it's oxacylic acid. Maybe a little Kroil or
WD-40? Can you ruin the rest of it to match evenly?

"carlDOTwest" wrote in message
news:ohbZc.102752$mD.38597@attbi_s02...

I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.


This is a scan of the worst of it:

http://h00050207be9f.ne.client2.attb.../RustSpots.jpg (119k)

The grey spots in the scan are slightly browner in real life.

Tips/hints on proper removal?

I'm s'posed to deliver it tomorrow (Wednesday). 8-o



--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

Tom Gardner wrote:

You are so screwed!....sorry...

In the scan it looks pitted. not so in reality. I just want to darken
the rust and rub out what I can.

Hmmm... I seem to recall something about boiling rusted items in plain
water to turn the oxides black. Ring a bell anyone?


Are the stains oxidation or from the leather? Maybe a cleaner like 409 for
stain or muratic or HCl for rust.
in a pinch try "Lime Away", it's oxacylic acid. Maybe a little Kroil or
WD-40? Can you ruin the rest of it to match evenly?

I'm considering a quick re-etch with tomato ketchup.
It has worked well on my own work, gave good color, it's cheap, it
pretty much stays in place, fairly safe. (just don't get it on your food)

--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

In article , Carl West
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

You are so screwed!....sorry...

In the scan it looks pitted. not so in reality. I just want to darken
the rust and rub out what I can.

Hmmm... I seem to recall something about boiling rusted items in plain
water to turn the oxides black. Ring a bell anyone?


Are the stains oxidation or from the leather? Maybe a cleaner like 409 for
stain or muratic or HCl for rust.
in a pinch try "Lime Away", it's oxacylic acid. Maybe a little Kroil or
WD-40? Can you ruin the rest of it to match evenly?

I'm considering a quick re-etch with tomato ketchup.
It has worked well on my own work, gave good color, it's cheap, it
pretty much stays in place, fairly safe. (just don't get it on your food)

Try Flitz.
It is a rubbing compund for polishing, but works very well on things
like guns and knives.
It works well on guns because it will remove surface rust without
damaging the bluing.

Most gun stores sell it as well as most hardware stores.
It comes in a little toothpaste type tube.

Try a home made jewellry cleaning solution that works on almost any metals
from gold on down. I had a small jewellry shop where I made the rings and
ornaments out of Silver and Gold as well as out of Steel. To clean the
metals perfectly I used a mix of 50% water, 25% Ammonia, and 25% dish soap.
It is the same mixture that lots of jewellry shops use for cleaning your
jewellry when you take it in. It will not damage the metal at all and it
will remove crap and rust from old meatls to make them look really new
again. For small articles you put it into a ultrasonic cleaner which you can
by even at wall mart for cheap. For larger items put it into a pot and start
heating it up, but not to boiling and put your article into it and swish it
around for approx. 10 minutes or so. Once done take it out and just wash it
with water and soap and then dry it and then you are done. THOMAS' Wrought
Iron Works at .

"carlDOTwest" wrote in message
news:ohbZc.102752$mD.38597@attbi_s02...

I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.


This is a scan of the worst of it:

http://h00050207be9f.ne.client2.attb.../RustSpots.jpg (119k)

The grey spots in the scan are slightly browner in real life.

Tips/hints on proper removal?

I'm s'posed to deliver it tomorrow (Wednesday). 8-o



--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

Carl,

First off DO NOT SAND PAPER IT! You'll just end up ruining the finish
and loosing the pattern.

Second DO NOT RE-ETCH IT! You can't properly reetch the blade and get a
consistent look with ketchup. Don't try - you'll just ruin the blade.

Finally, what you CAN do - Start by wiping it down with plain old
Windex. High in ammonia it will neutralize the acids eating at the metal.

Next take a good rough cloth (not scratchy, sort of a wash cloth or shop
towel) spray it down with WD-40 and wipe the blade down. Pay particular
attention to the damaged areas. The WD-40 will neutralize the ammonia in
the Windex and the strippers in the oil will help remove the remaining
stain.

If the stain remains, then you'll need to step up to something stronger
such as Flitz. I recommend this only as a last resort. Flitz is a
powerful chemical product which includes an abrasive - IT CAN AND WILL
REMOVE SOME MATERIAL - use it sparingly and only in the areas where the
damage remains.

If Flitz doesn't do the job I recommend you return it to either the
maker or the owner (whichever you're working for) and let them handle
the repair.

On the flip side - you need to figure out what happened to your leather
sheath and what it's contaminated with before you go putting that sword
back in it.

Mark Henry

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:24:04 GMT, "carlDOTwest"
wrote:

I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.

I think you should NOT try any remedies yourself.
The maker knows how he got the patination in the
first place, and may be the only one qualified
to restore it. Anything you try may make it that
much more difficult to get it corrected.

--
--Pete
"Peter W. Meek"
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:24:04 GMT, "carlDOTwest"
wrote:

I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.

I'd ask Hrisoulas himself. Although there are plenty of ways to deal
with the rust, that's a pattern welded blade and you also need to
preserve the etch and patination used to highlight the pattern
welding. He uses various etches (acid or alkaline) and may also
hot-blue with sodium hydroxide. You may find that you need to refiish
the whole blade to do a really good job ! A few more details are in
his book "The Pattern Welded Blade", which you ought to have anyway,
but you'd want to ask him directly and find out which processes had
been used.

(and needless to say, you don;t want to be learning the processes on a
customer's blade)

What sort of leather was it ? To suffer rusting this rapidly, I might
suspect it was chrome tanned? A blade of this quality deserves a
non-corrosive veg tanned leather.

--
Smert' spamionam

Andy Dingley wrote:

...
but you'd want to ask him directly and find out which processes had
been used.

I've emailed him and will be calling him in an hour or so.

--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

Carl

The bicycle riders use Simichrome Polish (ammonium oleate) to get rust
spots off chrome, etc. I use it as a strop treatment for final polish of
my carving knives and it's great for that. I've also used it to get rust
spots off things like old micrometers and steel rulers. It does a good
job of cleaning the rust out from between the steel rulings without
changing them in any visible way. Use a soft cloth and you should be
able to lift the spots without noticeably effecting the pattern welding.
Probably want to rub the whole surface so any slight differences will be
invisible. Then make sure you re-oil the surface, since the polish
removes all the oil too and leaves the surface primed to rust again.

Jim

carlDOTwest wrote:

I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.

I would try electrocleaning. It does not remove any metal.

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1999_retired_files/E-CLEAN2.TXT
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1999_retired_files/E-CLEAN.TXT

Given the time constraints, you could just use a battery charger for
power (polarity is important) and, if you can't round up all the
ingredients for the solution, just try plain washing soda (_not_ baking
soda) in water.

Ted

Jim McGill wrote:


The bicycle riders use Simichrome Polish ...
Probably want to rub the whole surface so any slight differences will be
invisible. Then make sure you re-oil the surface, since the polish
removes all the oil too and leaves the surface primed to rust again.

Dr. Hrisoulas' suggestion exactly. Simichrome or Mother's. I found
Mother's. Worked fine.

Crisis over. Sick feeling gone. Off to work now, time to fix the watches.

Whew.

Pictures of the finished piece (the scabbard) later.

--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

Tim Williams wrote:

...
OT: how do you get the weld to show up like that? My experience with forge
welding has been clean joints...

The joints are clean, but they are between meteoric iron and
I-don't-know-what. Whatever etchant he used affects the metals
differently, both for depth of etch and coloring.

I once did a 65-layer piece with wrought iron and truck spring, I used
Ketchup as the etchant. Almost no depth to the etch, but great color
difference between the metals.


--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

The bicycle riders use Simichrome Polish ...
Dr. Hrisoulas' suggestion exactly. Simichrome or Mother's. I found
Mother's. Worked fine.

That's no good! :/
First, the hand grinder then files then sand paper, in that order. ;)

Crisis over. Sick feeling gone. Off to work now, time to fix the
watches.
Whew.

Reading this thread got my feeling sick, you were going to try some
of the suggestions... other than the ones that said to get ahold of
DrH.

Pictures of the finished piece (the scabbard) later.
Carl West

Cool. :)

Alvin in AZ

The same stupid crap happened to me. I had a holster made for my pistol, put
the gun in and it rusted. Holster makers should not turnover wet holsters
the *******s. The holster is fine now, (twenty years latter) just wet when I
picked it up.

Les

When you do blueing, you have to add sodium hydroxide until the
boiling point is about 280 degrees in order to get black oxide. Below
that temp. you get red oxide. So I don't think plain water will work.
If you want to try that do it with something else first.

Dan


Carl West wrote in message

Hmmm... I seem to recall something about boiling rusted items in plain
water to turn the oxides black. Ring a bell anyone?

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:24:04 +0000, carlDOTwest wrote:


I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.


Was this ordinary or oil cured leather? I seem to remember that only oil
cured lether should be used as knife scabbards or for any other use where
the leather will come in contact with metal.

--
The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:24:04 GMT, "carlDOTwest"
wrote:


I just finished a scabbard for a very nice pattern welded sword made by
Dr. Jim Hrisoulas aka "Atar". It appears that there was just a tech of
moisture in the leather when I put the sword in it last night.


This is a scan of the worst of it:

http://h00050207be9f.ne.client2.attb.../RustSpots.jpg (119k)

The grey spots in the scan are slightly browner in real life.

Tips/hints on proper removal?

I'm s'posed to deliver it tomorrow (Wednesday). 8-o

If possible, you might ask the maker. He knows his steel better than
anyone else.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

wrote:

The bicycle riders use Simichrome Polish ...

Dr. Hrisoulas' suggestion exactly. Simichrome or Mother's. I found
Mother's. Worked fine.


That's no good! :/
First, the hand grinder then files then sand paper, in that order. ;)

What? You want me to skip the rasp? How else would I re-create the
wiggly pattern?



--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

When you rust blue, you coat the polished metal with an acid solution that
creates a thin film of red rust(ferrous oxide) Then you boil the metal in
distilled water for a few minutes. The ferrous oxide converts to
ferro-ferric oxide which is black. The rust is removed with fine soft wire
brushes and the process is repeated until the metal reaches the desired
color, usually about 3-5 rusting cycles.

Randy


"Dan Caster" wrote in message
m...
When you do blueing, you have to add sodium hydroxide until the
boiling point is about 280 degrees in order to get black oxide. Below
that temp. you get red oxide. So I don't think plain water will work.
If you want to try that do it with something else first.

Dan


Carl West wrote in message

Hmmm... I seem to recall something about boiling rusted items in plain
water to turn the oxides black. Ring a bell anyone?