I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

On 21 Aug 2004 05:19:21 -0700, (ken) wrote:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files?

With a chisel, and lots of patience!

I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

"The Art of Blacksmithing"
by Alex W. Bealer
[Castle Books 1995]
ISBN 0-7858-0395-5

Amazon.com will sell you a new copy for $10 or a used one for $5

Check one of Lindsay's books, "English and American Toolbuilders". Files,
going back many hundreds of years were made by gouging each line with a
chisel. As far as I know, files have only been machine made for the last
150 years or so.

Bob Swinney
"ken" wrote in message
om...
I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

(ken) wrote in
om:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Some things never change. I am reading a book on Medieval technology in
Europe and there is a report from the York Minster (England) building site
works from 1345 in which there are complaints both by management and labor
of shoddy work practices (leaving work uncovered), stolen building
materials (timber, stone, and lime), slipping deadlines (because the owner
had the only keys to the building and was not around often), wage
complaints (workers asking for too much but getting too little [esp. for
drink!]), and shoddy equipment (rotting wooden cranes). In some ways
Western Civilization doesn't seem to have advanced at all.

ken wrote:
I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Blacksmithing reached perhaps its purest form in the old west. A blacksmith
wanting to set up shop carried anvil and a hammer or so out to make a new
shop, and made all of his tools from scratch. Sorta like Gingerly, the
first couple of tools were hard to make, but after a minimal toolset was
constructed, the work became easier.

--
Samiam is Scott A. Moore

Personal web site: http:/www.moorecad.com/scott
My electronics engineering consulting site: http://www.moorecad.com
ISO 7185 Standard Pascal web site: http://www.moorecad.com/standardpascal
Classic Basic Games web site: http://www.moorecad.com/classicbasic
The IP Pascal web site, a high performance, highly portable ISO 7185 Pascal
compiler system: http://www.moorecad.com/ippas

Being right is more powerfull than large corporations or governments.
The right argument may not be pervasive, but the facts eventually are.

Hitch wrote in message
...
(ken) wrote in
om:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Some things never change. I am reading a book on Medieval technology in
Europe and there is a report from the York Minster (England) building site
works from 1345 in which there are complaints both by management and labor
of shoddy work practices (leaving work uncovered), stolen building
materials (timber, stone, and lime), slipping deadlines (because the owner
had the only keys to the building and was not around often), wage
complaints (workers asking for too much but getting too little [esp. for
drink!]), and shoddy equipment (rotting wooden cranes). In some ways
Western Civilization doesn't seem to have advanced at all.


You might like the book Brunelleschi's Dome.

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message ...
Check one of Lindsay's books, "English and American Toolbuilders". Files,
going back many hundreds of years were made by gouging each line with a
chisel. As far as I know, files have only been machine made for the last
150 years or so.

Bob Swinney
"ken" wrote in message
om...
I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Here's how they were doing it by the early 19th century:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/a-m_file_cutter.JPG

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...le_cutter2.JPG

Not sure of the exact date, but early 1800's, possibly before.

(these are pretty large .jpg files, it will take a while if you are on dial-up)

Regards,

Bob

On 21 Aug 2004 13:29:14 -0700, (Bob
Edwards) wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message ...
Check one of Lindsay's books, "English and American Toolbuilders". Files,
going back many hundreds of years were made by gouging each line with a
chisel. As far as I know, files have only been machine made for the last
150 years or so.

Bob Swinney
"ken" wrote in message
om...
I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Here's how they were doing it by the early 19th century:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/a-m_file_cutter.JPG

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...le_cutter2.JPG

Not sure of the exact date, but early 1800's, possibly before.

(these are pretty large .jpg files, it will take a while if you are on dial-up)

Regards,

Bob

Those are very cool pictures. I'd love to see the machine in person.

"Hitch" wrote in message
...
(ken) wrote in
om:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

What I find absolutely amazing are lithic implements. Those are tools made
out of stone. There were much more than projectile points. In the manner
of projectile points, you had arrowheads, spear heads, atlatl heads, and
dart heads.

In the manner of tools, there were scrapers, gravers, cutters, drills,
notchers, and on and on.

If you ever get the chance, look at some of the absolutely intricate
delicate exacting work these craftsmen were able to do with just rudimentary
implements. Rocks, bone, sticks, fire, natural substances ..............
AND ............. human hands.

I have tried knapping. That is making stone tools out of chunks of rocks.
Easy it ain't. An old one who could crank out a good arrowhead had as much
skill and talent as today's master machinist. If you don't believe me, just
try it.

Steve

ken wrote:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

This would be the best:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Libweb/

Tom

(Bob Edwards)

Here's how they were doing it by the early 19th century:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/a-m_file_cutter.JPG

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...le_cutter2.JPG

Not sure of the exact date, but early 1800's, possibly before.

A wonderfully wrought device; seems to be a direct replacement of hammer and
hand. Do you have any history--who/where/how is it known to have been used for
files (other than that the toolbit seems right)?

IMO, file making was one of the trades able to be kept as secret as possible
(at least the heat treating aspect), so as to delay the changeover to machine
technology, but that machine says different.

The hand cut method would have used the same curved chisel, but perhaps with a
second bit attached that you could set in a previously made cut to set up the
next cut.
The file maker's hammer has a short, curved handle for a break-of-wrist sort of
stroke.

Frank Morrison

Scott Moore wrote in message news:_9LVc.291892$a24.179307@attbi_s03...
ken wrote:
I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Blacksmithing reached perhaps its purest form in the old west. A blacksmith
wanting to set up shop carried anvil and a hammer or so out to make a new
shop, and made all of his tools from scratch. Sorta like Gingerly, the
first couple of tools were hard to make, but after a minimal toolset was
constructed, the work became easier.

Here is a book that you all might find interesting.

Out of the Fiery Furnace by Robert Raymond,
The impact of metals on the history of mankind

The Pennsylvania State University Press

ISBN 0-271-00441-X
A good read, especially for this group. Bob

ken wrote:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?
Look for a book called :

"A Museum of Early American Tools" by Eric Sloane

Lots of 16xx -17xx (those were dates) examples of tools, some making hints - mostly hand drawn concepts.

ISBN 0805012923 around $20


Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Tom wrote:

ken wrote:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?


This would be the best:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Libweb/

Tom
Thanks tom - got to see the old library I spent so much time in - though it is
larger some is the same.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

It being a dull day, I decide to respond to what Hitch
foisted Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:17:32 -0500 on
rec.crafts.metalworking , viz:
(ken) wrote in
. com:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Some things never change. I am reading a book on Medieval technology in
Europe and there is a report from the York Minster (England) building site
works from 1345 in which there are complaints both by management and labor
of shoddy work practices (leaving work uncovered), stolen building
materials (timber, stone, and lime), slipping deadlines (because the owner
had the only keys to the building and was not around often), wage
complaints (workers asking for too much but getting too little [esp. for
drink!]), and shoddy equipment (rotting wooden cranes). In some ways
Western Civilization doesn't seem to have advanced at all.

Some years ago, watched a documentary on building the pyramids.
Archeologist hires a stone mason to do the actual test. At one point, the
two are having one of the standard "why is this taking longer, and costing
more, than planned? discussions, all nicely framed with the Pyramids of
Giza in the background. I cracked up - some things haven't changed in 5000
years!


tschus


--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

I'm going to try and make me a file. See how it goes. And thanks for
the tips on the books. We have a new guy coming into the shop who now
works at a major museum in Europe restoring guns made before 1750. He
has been making the replacement parts as closely as possible to the
way they were made originally. I don't want to be clueless when I
start asking questions. This is going to be a unique situation to say
the least.
Ken

ken sez:
" I'm going to try and make me a file. See how it goes."

Not smart ken -- the warden may be a RCM'er!

Bob Swinney
"ken" wrote in message
om...
And thanks for
the tips on the books. We have a new guy coming into the shop who now
works at a major museum in Europe restoring guns made before 1750. He
has been making the replacement parts as closely as possible to the
way they were made originally. I don't want to be clueless when I
start asking questions. This is going to be a unique situation to say
the least.
Ken

(Fdmorrison) wrote in message ...
(Bob Edwards)

Here's how they were doing it by the early 19th century:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/a-m_file_cutter.JPG

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...le_cutter2.JPG

Not sure of the exact date, but early 1800's, possibly before.

A wonderfully wrought device; seems to be a direct replacement of hammer and
hand. Do you have any history--who/where/how is it known to have been used for
files (other than that the toolbit seems right)?

Frank:

It's on display at the Musee des Artes and Metiers in Paris, France in
their machinery hall as an example of an early filemaking machine.
They actually have a file blank clamped on the machine bed and cut
about half-way down the length, to show how it operates.

You are right, it seems to be a "direct" implementation of the manual
process, which also suggests an early machine. However, it does have
adjustable pitch, adjustable stroke length, and several other
adjustments that I couldn't make out what they do. I'd love to see it
working.

Regards,

Bob

ken wrote:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Here's a nice link on file making:

http://www.watchman.dsl.pipex.com/filemaking/index.html

(The rest of this site is also very interesting for people who are
horologically inclined)

Cheers!

Rob

Rob Kramer wrote in message ...
ken wrote:

I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Here's a nice link on file making:

http://www.watchman.dsl.pipex.com/filemaking/index.html

(The rest of this site is also very interesting for people who are

Did you know there is a drawing in DaVinci's papers of a file-cutting
machine which looks similar to (but less complicated than) the picture
I posted from the Musee des Artes et Metiers? I don't know if it was
ever constructed, but the drawing shows the concept of doing this by
machine was around very early.

I think it's not so much that the procedures for heat treatment and
tempering of steel were not known prior to the Sheffield makers' use
in the mid-1800's; more that good steel was hard to come by.

The basics of hardening steel have been known dating back to ancient
times by swordmakers and other metalsmiths -- what was new in the
mid-1800's were the new steel-making proceses, which greatly increased
the availablilty of good steel.

Regards,

Bob


horologically inclined)

Cheers!

Rob

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Scott Moore
wrote back on Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:57:34 GMT in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
ken wrote:
I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Blacksmithing reached perhaps its purest form in the old west. A blacksmith
wanting to set up shop carried anvil and a hammer or so out to make a new
shop, and made all of his tools from scratch. Sorta like Gingerly, the
first couple of tools were hard to make, but after a minimal toolset was
constructed, the work became easier.

Wasn't all that long ago either. My Dad was working in the woods in
Ontario in '47. Kept reporting to the district supervisor that his smith
needed tools. Finally, Dad was told that he had an anvil, hammer, tongs
and a forge, as well as bar stock, a good smith should be able to make any
tools he needed. End of discussion

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show
(Bob Edwards) wrote back on 23 Aug 2004
06:31:29 -0700 in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Did you know there is a drawing in DaVinci's papers of a file-cutting
machine which looks similar to (but less complicated than) the picture
I posted from the Musee des Artes et Metiers? I don't know if it was
ever constructed, but the drawing shows the concept of doing this by
machine was around very early.

I think it's not so much that the procedures for heat treatment and
tempering of steel were not known prior to the Sheffield makers' use
in the mid-1800's; more that good steel was hard to come by.

The basics of hardening steel have been known dating back to ancient
times by swordmakers and other metalsmiths -- what was new in the
mid-1800's were the new steel-making proceses, which greatly increased
the availablilty of good steel.

That is the rub. The real change wasn't just cheap iron, but cheap
steel. I've been told that prior to the 1600s, iron cost like silver, steel
like gold - at least in terms of comparable purchasing power. We've
dropped the cost of steel from where it was just used for cutting edges, to
now we make nails of it, and other "disposable" items.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

Scott Moore wrote:
ken wrote:
I started to wonder how tey did things that far back. Like how did
they make files? I've looked around the internet and found just about
nothing. I have only a limited amount of available tim eon computer so
has anybody found an links?

Blacksmithing reached perhaps its purest form in the old west. A blacksmith
wanting to set up shop carried anvil and a hammer or so out to make a new
shop, and made all of his tools from scratch.

I get the point you're making, but if I was going cart a damn anvil
about, I'd make sure I found space for a couple of files too.


Tim
--
Cook my sock.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:04:11 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:


Wasn't all that long ago either. My Dad was working in the woods in
Ontario in '47. Kept reporting to the district supervisor that his smith
needed tools. Finally, Dad was told that he had an anvil, hammer, tongs
and a forge, as well as bar stock, a good smith should be able to make any
tools he needed. End of discussion
This is how I learned from Grandad (shoed his first plow horse at
eight years of age) naphtha gas blow torch (luxury item) a bunch of
used bricks, a couple hammers, a piece of rail, an old vice and
whatever scrap he could turn up among the neighbours.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

They had one huge advantage over us. There is no way we can make tools
300 years ago now.
************************************************** ***
I have decided that I should not be offended by
anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's
good, anyway.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:59:05 +0800, Old Nick wrote:
They had one huge advantage over us. There is no way we can make tools
300 years ago now.

Well, not without a time machine anyway.

Gary