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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
Hi all, Well my TO-20 (Ferguson) tractor doesn't have any spark.
AFAICT it's either the coil or the distributor that is bad. Distributor is Delco-Remy 1111722. I don't totally understand how the distributor works. There are two connections to it. One from the HV coil. And the other connects the low voltage coil to ground (negative) The distributor is off the tractor and when I spin the rotor, I don't see any connection between the low voltage coil input and ground. (case of distributor.) Should I see a closed connection at some point as I spin the rotor? (I'm measuring with a DMM ohmmeter.) Or does this also have some sort of spark gap? Thanks. George H. (Oh and how the bleep do I get this distributor apart?) |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Hi all, Well my TO-20 (Ferguson) tractor doesn't have any spark. AFAICT it's either the coil or the distributor that is bad. Distributor is Delco-Remy 1111722. I don't totally understand how the distributor works. There are two connections to it. One from the HV coil. And the other connects the low voltage coil to ground (negative) The distributor is off the tractor and when I spin the rotor, I don't see any connection between the low voltage coil input and ground. (case of distributor.) Should I see a closed connection at some point as I spin the rotor? (I'm measuring with a DMM ohmmeter.) Or does this also have some sort of spark gap? Thanks. George H. (Oh and how the bleep do I get this distributor apart?) Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side... off to Java Farm Supply. GH |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side... off to Java Farm Supply. GH If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor) as well. |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:30:31 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote: On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote: Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side... off to Java Farm Supply. GH If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor) as well. Decent, generic diagram for a distributor, coil, spark plugs he https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor You'll need to set the gap for the points after replacing or moving them around... -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 3:09:32 PM UTC-4, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:30:31 -0400 "Jim Wilkins" wrote: On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote: Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side... off to Java Farm Supply. GH If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor) as well. Decent, generic diagram for a distributor, coil, spark plugs he https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor You'll need to set the gap for the points after replacing or moving them around... -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ... just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it . -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety - and armed . Get outta my woods ! |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 05:30:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 3:09:32 PM UTC-4, Leon Fisk wrote: On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:30:31 -0400 "Jim Wilkins" wrote: On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote: Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side... off to Java Farm Supply. GH If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor) as well. Decent, generic diagram for a distributor, coil, spark plugs he https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor You'll need to set the gap for the points after replacing or moving them around... -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. If you were ACCURATE and marked it properly, and the timing was correct to start with, the timing should be good. You cantime with a timing light or you can "static time" see: https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/c...ferg&th=113880 and: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-how-time.html and: http://fergusontractors.org/nfs/setting-timing/ and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLZhGAEAng0 |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have a test light just grab the coil wire. |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:38:04 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have a test light just grab the coil wire. But put the screwdriver down first. On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:38:04 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote: On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have a test light just grab the coil wire. Put the screwdriver down first. |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:31:57 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ... just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it . -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety - and armed . Get outta my woods ! Oh.. I was watching some Aussie guy fix up a Ferg, and he set the timing at 'DC' so to speak. I guess I'm confused about which side of the low voltage points opening- closing- opening - cycle I'm setting 'zero' by. So if I'm getting this right, I want to set 'zero' at the position where the points have been closed and then open up.. (it's my job to get the engine spin direction correct.) That's the point (position) where the spark happens... (Huh. I never understood all this before... thanks.) George H. (in engine/ flywheel cycle) where th |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:31:57 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ... just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it . -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety - and armed . Get outta my woods ! OK thanks. Me and the boy will go F around with it as soon as it stops blowing and snowing here. I found a timing light in the 'tool' bus. (The tool bus is an old school bus left here by the previous owner and full of all sorts of junk... useful stuff.) George H. |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 3:38:04 PM UTC-4, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have a test light just grab the coil wire. Yeah thanks. But I'm certainly not grabbin' any a 'dem wires. I would have gone out today, but it was blowing and snowing here. |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On 22/04/2020 02:21, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:31:57 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote: On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark plugs for $20. Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing. (And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.) George H. ================================ https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual". George H. Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light and wants a beer. :^) GH Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ... just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it . -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety - and armed . Get outta my woods ! OK thanks. Me and the boy will go F around with it as soon as it stops blowing and snowing here. I found a timing light in the 'tool' bus. (The tool bus is an old school bus left here by the previous owner and full of all sorts of junk... useful stuff.) George H. When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times for initial set-up on cars. |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
"David Billington" wrote in message ...
When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times for initial set-up on cars. =================================== If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the spark jumps. However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after properly setting them. The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current, causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it. in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder. https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the term. Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable. The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a transformer. The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system whose concept may be easier to understand. When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the "dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have sparked across and eroded the points. Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in their designation. If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the marks appearing to move on the flywheel. If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know, since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast. Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS. http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/ Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry, thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college. |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...
If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to give the flame time to spread.... ================== Here's a good description; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing I've seen a mechanic set timing by manually rotating the distributor until he liked the sound of the exhaust. I set it by the book, but tune old carbs by idle speed, throttle response and the smell of the exhaust. |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message ... When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times for initial set-up on cars. =================================== If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the spark jumps. However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after properly setting them. The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current, causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it. in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder. https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the term. Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable. The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a transformer. The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system whose concept may be easier to understand. When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the "dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have sparked across and eroded the points. Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in their designation. If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the marks appearing to move on the flywheel. If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know, since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast. Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS. http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/ Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry, thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college. Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks. I did finally understand how my distributor works. So thanks for that too. In the end I just put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place. (I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the 'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended 7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between 30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?) So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) |
#21
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No spark (distributor question)
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT)
wrote: snip So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? How much oil are you burning? Black fried gunk sounds like burning oil to me but we all have different ways to describe things eh? -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI |
#22
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: "David Billington" wrote in message ... When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times for initial set-up on cars. =================================== If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the spark jumps. However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after properly setting them. The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current, causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it. in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder. https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the term. Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable. The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a transformer. The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system whose concept may be easier to understand. When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the "dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have sparked across and eroded the points. Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in their designation. If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the marks appearing to move on the flywheel. If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know, since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast. Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS. http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/ Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry, thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college. Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks. I did finally understand how my distributor works. So thanks for that too. In the end I just put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place. (I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the 'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended 7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between 30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?) So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil. Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original |
#23
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: "David Billington" wrote in message ... When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times for initial set-up on cars. =================================== If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the spark jumps. However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after properly setting them. The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current, causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it. in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder. https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the term. Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable. The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a transformer. The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system whose concept may be easier to understand. When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the "dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have sparked across and eroded the points. Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in their designation. If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the marks appearing to move on the flywheel. If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know, since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast. Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS. http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/ Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry, thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college. Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks. I did finally understand how my distributor works. So thanks for that too. In the end I just put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place. (I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the 'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended 7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between 30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?) So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) Spark plugs are made in what is called "heat ranges". Read https://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/spark-plug-heat-range/ -- cheers, John B. |
#24
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
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#25
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 5:04:28 PM UTC-4, Clare wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: "David Billington" wrote in message ... When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times for initial set-up on cars. =================================== If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the spark jumps. However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after properly setting them. The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current, causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it. in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder. https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the term. Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable. The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a transformer. The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system whose concept may be easier to understand. When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the "dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have sparked across and eroded the points. Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in their designation. If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the marks appearing to move on the flywheel. If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know, since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast. Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS. http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/ Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry, thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college. Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks. I did finally understand how my distributor works. So thanks for that too. In the end I just put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place. (I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the 'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended 7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between 30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?) So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil. Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original OK Thanks. I'll look into the carb. then. I'm mostly an idiot when it comes to engines. (I guess I should go talk to the guys at the tractor repair/ sales place... well after this virus thing clears up.) George H. |
#26
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 3:35:50 PM UTC-4, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) wrote: snip So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? How much oil are you burning? Black fried gunk sounds like burning oil to me but we all have different ways to describe things eh? -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI Hmm I'm not sure how much oil I'm burning. I've always figured the gunk was because of oil leaking around the piston rings. But that could be a wrong assumption. (One of the pistons was 'rebuilt' several years.. new rings and I had the piston sleeve 'redone'(not sure the right term.) Anyway the black gunk seems the same on each spark plug... So I thought maybe it's something else. George H. |
#27
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message ... On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil. Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original ===================================== Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and then sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion. Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem? (I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.) George H. |
#28
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
wrote in message ... On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: "Clare Snyder" wrote in message ... On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil. Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original ===================================== Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and then sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion. Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem? (I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.) George H. ================================= Ben Franklin couldn't resist: https://teachingamericanhistory.org/...my-of-farting/ Maybe the carb, or a clogged air filter. Does it backfire? Normally gas containing 10% ethanol can make an old engine not designed for it run leaner and lose power. Could a previous owner have tinkered with it, perhaps drilled out the main jet? Blowing out the small passages in a carb with compressed air often solves its problems. First buy a carb rebuild kit so you can replace any torn gaskets or lost tiny parts. It seems like things I buy precautionary spares for don't break, which is fine by me. It might help to ask someone with experience to show you how to work on the carb, though I learned from a book. Reassembling the float valve is tricky. I bought a used log splitter for only the cost of its brand new replacement engine because it had a difficult carb problem from the factory, which I finally diagnosed as a leak in the brass carburetor float that let it sink and raise the gas level in the bowl until the mixture was too rich to run. I'd added a shutoff to the fuel line to help work on it. After sitting for a week or two the carb gas evaporated and it would start just fine, then bog down and stall again in a few minutes. I found gasoline in the float by shaking it. The leak was impossible to locate, even submerging the dried-out float in water in a transparent vacuum chamber didn't reveal bubbling, but the replacement cost only about $3 and the splitter has served well for 20+ years since. |
#29
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
The timing light worked and the 'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended 7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between 30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?) The distro isnt advancing? You have a problem. Which is probably why your plugs are gummed up. __ "Journalists are extremely rare and shouldn’t be harmed, but propagandists are everywhere and should be hunted for sport" Yeah..with no bag limit. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#30
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:54:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: "Clare Snyder" wrote in message ... On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil. Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original ===================================== Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and then sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion. Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem? (I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.) George H. Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black. Check the exhaust - if its "dry" and black it's running rich. If it's gooey it's oil. If it's burning oil switch to a heavier oil (I'd run 15w40 or 20W50) and I'd also try putting some Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil for an hour or two before draining the oil - It's pretty darn good at freeing uup stuck piston rings which WILL make the engine burn oil. How many hours are on the little TO20 and has it ever been rebuilt? How has it been maintained? The Continental z120 is a pretty tough little engine but it's been around a LONG time!!! |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
... Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black. ================== The faint blue color of oil smoke can be hard to detect, depending on the lighting and background color. I just noticed it in a newscast ad video for a lumberjack competition when chainsaw startup exhaust drifted across a white poster. I usually don't see my saw's cold startup exhaust as blue or black against the natural background of green, grey and brown. But then condensation coming out of my chimney looks white against the sky from down sun, greyish against the trees from up sun. Unless you're a smoker the sniff test can be more sensitive, indicating the rich or leanness of the mixture when the exhaust is clear. You can search for other people's postings on that engine and tractor. I'm trying to not burn through too much of my metered 4G internet, since my unmetered dialup ISP shut down. https://forums.yesterdaystractors.co...c.php?t=745772 |
#32
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 7:51:44 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message ... Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black. ================== The faint blue color of oil smoke can be hard to detect, depending on the lighting and background color. I just noticed it in a newscast ad video for a lumberjack competition when chainsaw startup exhaust drifted across a white poster. I usually don't see my saw's cold startup exhaust as blue or black against the natural background of green, grey and brown. But then condensation coming out of my chimney looks white against the sky from down sun, greyish against the trees from up sun. Unless you're a smoker the sniff test can be more sensitive, indicating the rich or leanness of the mixture when the exhaust is clear. You can search for other people's postings on that engine and tractor. I'm trying to not burn through too much of my metered 4G internet, since my unmetered dialup ISP shut down. https://forums.yesterdaystractors.co...c.php?t=745772 Thanks Jim, I've been to yesterday's tractor... nice place for used parts. (or it use to be.) phone internet. I've got satellite here.(Huhges net) This improved a few years ago when Blue Horizon... (or some other company) came into the market and offered a service that still has 'reasonable' speeds even after you've used up your daily/ monthly data allowance. Not cheap though.. $60-90/ month George H. |
#33
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 9:08:16 PM UTC-4, Clare wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:54:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: "Clare Snyder" wrote in message ... On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil. Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original ===================================== Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and then sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion. Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem? (I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.) George H. Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black. Check the exhaust - if its "dry" and black it's running rich. If it's gooey it's oil. If it's burning oil switch to a heavier oil (I'd run 15w40 or 20W50) and I'd also try putting some Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil for an hour or two before draining the oil - It's pretty darn good at freeing uup stuck piston rings which WILL make the engine burn oil. How many hours are on the little TO20 and has it ever been rebuilt? How has it been maintained? The Continental z120 is a pretty tough little engine but it's been around a LONG time!!! Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day. It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the float level and that looked spot on. I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago. With any luck she'll out live me. :^) George H. |
#34
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
phone internet.
I've got satellite here.(Huhges net) This improved a few years ago when Blue Horizon... (or some other company) came into the market and offered a service that still has 'reasonable' speeds even after you've used up your daily/ monthly data allowance. Not cheap though.. $60-90/ month George H. ====================== Glad to help, and to hear that what I wrote was comprehensible. I flunked Technical Writing in college and post here for practice. I feel cheated by monthly TV/phone/net bills higher than what I pay for electricity ($40). My computer-clueless neighbor's difficulties with Internet-only government and commercial interactions indicate that Net access is becoming a basic necessity. Perhaps that's intentional because it drives people to carry smart phones that report their location. During the last extended power outage when power, cable and phone lines were down I couldn't find any useful weather info on the radio, but my 3G cellular Internet gave me a radar image of what precipitation was coming and about how soon it would arrive. I knew when to clean up fallen trees and repair roof damage and when to cover it with a tarp. I was on the predecessor of wireless Internet in 1972 when I maintained an experimental Army digital tactical (mobile) communications network. During exercises we were encouraged to chat with other nodes via Teletype to generate random traffic. The unit I was with drove up a dirt path to a forested mountaintop near the Iron Curtain and set up the equivalent of a cellular tower, communications center and its support village. https://www.militaryaerospace.com/rf...ngrange-satcom "Military forces have been using troposcatter communications in various forms since the 1960s to transmit voice and data without the use of satellites or high-frequency (HF) radio signals." |
#35
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago.
With any luck she'll out live me. :^) George H. ================================= Thanks for the TO20 recommendation. I used my machine shop to build a hydraulic front end loader attachment for my 18HP garden tractor to clear snow, for which it worked quite well, however the tractor isn't heavy or strong enough to more than scratch at our rocky New England soil. I'm looking at small Kubotas but would consider anything for which I can still get parts that I can't make. For instance although I machined a new steering sector gear and linkage for it I can't harden and temper such parts very well in my wood stove. |
#36
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On 26/04/2020 19:23, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: "David Billington" wrote in message ... When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times for initial set-up on cars. =================================== If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the spark jumps. However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after properly setting them. The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current, causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it. in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder. https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the term. Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable. The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a transformer. The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system whose concept may be easier to understand. When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the "dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have sparked across and eroded the points. Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in their designation. If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the marks appearing to move on the flywheel. If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know, since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast. Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS. http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/ Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry, thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college. Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks. I did finally understand how my distributor works. So thanks for that too. In the end I just put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place. (I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the 'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended 7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between 30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?) So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some with better timing? Though it does other things this tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass) the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine. George H. (did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political crap on this site/net? or was it natural?) If it's like the Lucas distributors I'm familiar with then the advance unit can seize on the central spindle normally through lack of oiling the centre shaft. Usually easy to dismantle, clean out any congealed lubricant, oil and re-assemble and you should have functional advance. |
#37
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 05:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
wrote: Huge snip Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day. It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the float level and that looked spot on. I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago. With any luck she'll out live me. :^) Found a nice service manual here (~55mb): http://www.ntractorclub.com/manuals/...e%20Manual.pdf === Per that manual you should have a "Delco-Remy Model No. 1111722 with crankshaft rotation advance of 26 and 24 degrees respectively, both models are fully automatic.. The centrifugal advance mechanism is in- corporated in the distributor to automatically vary the timing of the spark with respect to the position of the piston in the cylinder. At high speeds, the spark must occur at the plug earlier in the compression stroke In order for the fuel mixture to deliver full power. The advance mechanism consists of an ad- vance cam, breaker cam, a pair of ' advance weights, springs and a weight base that is In- tegral with the distributor shaft. At low speeds, the advance weights are held in to- ward the center by the spring tension. As the speed of the distributor shaft increases, the centrifugal force overcomes the spring tension and the weights move outward and the toggles on the weights engage the advance cam. This rotates the advance cam and break- er cam which in turn allows the breaker cam to open and close the contact points earlier, thus advancing the spark... === Maybe help you out some ;-) -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI |
#38
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:21:18 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote: On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 05:20:06 -0700 (PDT) wrote: Huge snip Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day. It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the float level and that looked spot on. I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago. With any luck she'll out live me. :^) Found a nice service manual here (~55mb): http://www.ntractorclub.com/manuals/...e%20Manual.pdf === Per that manual you should have a "Delco-Remy Model No. 1111722 with crankshaft rotation advance of 26 and 24 degrees respectively, both models are fully automatic.. The centrifugal advance mechanism is in- corporated in the distributor to automatically vary the timing of the spark with respect to the position of the piston in the cylinder. At high speeds, the spark must occur at the plug earlier in the compression stroke In order for the fuel mixture to deliver full power. The advance mechanism consists of an ad- vance cam, breaker cam, a pair of ' advance weights, springs and a weight base that is In- tegral with the distributor shaft. At low speeds, the advance weights are held in to- ward the center by the spring tension. As the speed of the distributor shaft increases, the centrifugal force overcomes the spring tension and the weights move outward and the toggles on the weights engage the advance cam. This rotates the advance cam and break- er cam which in turn allows the breaker cam to open and close the contact points earlier, thus advancing the spark... === Maybe help you out some ;-) I really suspect it is oil. Interesting to know what oil is being run and when it was last changed. Like I noted before I'd be putting some MMO in the oil and running it for a few hours, then drain the oil and refill with 15w40 all fleet (like rotella T) or 20W50 Castrol GTX or similar and see what happens. Quite possible the valve guide seals are poor but he DID say he had the head rebuilt recently so more likely the rings. The rings tend to sludge up and stick - and the MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) or Shaler Rislone can loosen the rings. I used to use Rislone years back but MMO is a lot less harsh and just as effective. |
#39
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 6:12:57 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago. With any luck she'll out live me. :^) George H. ================================= Thanks for the TO20 recommendation. I used my machine shop to build a hydraulic front end loader attachment for my 18HP garden tractor to clear snow, for which it worked quite well, however the tractor isn't heavy or strong enough to more than scratch at our rocky New England soil. I'm looking at small Kubotas but would consider anything for which I can still get parts that I can't make. For instance although I machined a new steering sector gear and linkage for it I can't harden and temper such parts very well in my wood stove. Oh I'm not sure it's a recommendation. It's just what I stumbled upon. And yes it's very nice that the local Massey-Ferguson dealer still has parts for it. (And knowledgeable guys behind the counter.) Old tractors are nice 'cause they use to let a model run for several years... and there were lots of them made. Bad things, it has no (external) hydraulics, and the pto/ hydraulic pump share the pto power... so you have to engage the pto to raise the 3-pt hitch. The lift(3-pt hitch) only has raise and lower positions... but I added this gizmo that does some feedback and allows for intermediate heights. The brakes* are kinda wimpy... but maybe this is typical of tractors? It's got a six speed transmission. (I've never had it in 5th 'road' gear.) Which I hear is preferred to the four speed Ford 9-N, but I've never driven a 9-N so don't know. George H. *I only fixed the brakes a few years ago... who needs brakes? My son wanted to drive the tractor for "take your tractor to school day" But it was a rainy crappy day and didn't happen. |
#40
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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No spark (distributor question)
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:21:22 AM UTC-4, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 05:20:06 -0700 (PDT) wrote: Huge snip Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day. It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the float level and that looked spot on. I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago. With any luck she'll out live me. :^) Found a nice service manual here (~55mb): http://www.ntractorclub.com/manuals/...e%20Manual.pdf === Per that manual you should have a "Delco-Remy Model No. 1111722 with crankshaft rotation advance of 26 and 24 degrees respectively, both models are fully automatic.. The centrifugal advance mechanism is in- corporated in the distributor to automatically vary the timing of the spark with respect to the position of the piston in the cylinder. At high speeds, the spark must occur at the plug earlier in the compression stroke In order for the fuel mixture to deliver full power. The advance mechanism consists of an ad- vance cam, breaker cam, a pair of ' advance weights, springs and a weight base that is In- tegral with the distributor shaft. At low speeds, the advance weights are held in to- ward the center by the spring tension. As the speed of the distributor shaft increases, the centrifugal force overcomes the spring tension and the weights move outward and the toggles on the weights engage the advance cam. This rotates the advance cam and break- er cam which in turn allows the breaker cam to open and close the contact points earlier, thus advancing the spark... === Maybe help you out some ;-) -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI Thanks! I've got that manual.. but it cost me ~$20. So these cams and springs are down inside the distro somewhere. (maybe I'll give it a look see... now I've had it apart once. :^) George H. |
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