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Default No spark (distributor question)

Hi all, Well my TO-20 (Ferguson) tractor doesn't have any spark.
AFAICT it's either the coil or the distributor that is bad.
Distributor is Delco-Remy 1111722. I don't totally understand how
the distributor works. There are two connections to it. One
from the HV coil. And the other connects the low voltage coil to
ground (negative) The distributor is off the tractor and when I
spin the rotor, I don't see any connection between the low voltage
coil input and ground. (case of distributor.) Should I see a
closed connection at some point as I spin the rotor?
(I'm measuring with a DMM ohmmeter.) Or does this also have some
sort of spark gap?

Thanks.

George H.
(Oh and how the bleep do I get this distributor apart?)
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Hi all, Well my TO-20 (Ferguson) tractor doesn't have any spark.
AFAICT it's either the coil or the distributor that is bad.
Distributor is Delco-Remy 1111722. I don't totally understand how
the distributor works. There are two connections to it. One
from the HV coil. And the other connects the low voltage coil to
ground (negative) The distributor is off the tractor and when I
spin the rotor, I don't see any connection between the low voltage
coil input and ground. (case of distributor.) Should I see a
closed connection at some point as I spin the rotor?
(I'm measuring with a DMM ohmmeter.) Or does this also have some
sort of spark gap?

Thanks.

George H.
(Oh and how the bleep do I get this distributor apart?)


Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side...
off to Java Farm Supply.
GH
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side...
off to Java Farm Supply.
GH

If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor)
as well.

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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:30:31 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side...
off to Java Farm Supply.
GH

If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor)
as well.


Decent, generic diagram for a distributor, coil, spark plugs he

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor

You'll need to set the gap for the points after replacing or moving
them around...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI



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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 3:09:32 PM UTC-4, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:30:31 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side...
off to Java Farm Supply.
GH

If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor)
as well.


Decent, generic diagram for a distributor, coil, spark plugs he

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor

You'll need to set the gap for the points after replacing or moving
them around...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI


Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
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Default No spark (distributor question)


Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE

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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE


Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE


Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.


Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE
Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.

Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH


Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and
use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open
and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ...
just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !



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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 05:30:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 3:09:32 PM UTC-4, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:30:31 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:03:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Never mind.. got it apart.. bad contacts on low voltage side...
off to Java Farm Supply.
GH

If the points went bad it's a good idea to replace the condenser (capacitor)
as well.


Decent, generic diagram for a distributor, coil, spark plugs he

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor

You'll need to set the gap for the points after replacing or moving
them around...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI


Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.

If you were ACCURATE and marked it properly, and the timing was
correct to start with, the timing should be good. You cantime with a
timing light or you can "static time"

see:
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/c...ferg&th=113880
and:
https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-how-time.html
and:
http://fergusontractors.org/nfs/setting-timing/
and:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLZhGAEAng0



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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE

Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.


Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH

No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but
I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points
open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have
a test light just grab the coil wire.
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:38:04 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE

Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.


Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH

No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but
I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points
open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have
a test light just grab the coil wire.


But put the screwdriver down first.

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:38:04 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE

Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.


Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH

No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but
I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points
open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have
a test light just grab the coil wire.


Put the screwdriver down first.
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:31:57 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE
Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.

Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH


Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and
use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open
and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ...
just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !


Oh.. I was watching some Aussie guy fix up a Ferg, and he set the timing
at 'DC' so to speak. I guess I'm confused about which side of the
low voltage points opening- closing- opening - cycle I'm setting
'zero' by.
So if I'm getting this right, I want to set 'zero' at the
position where the points have been closed and then open up..
(it's my job to get the engine spin direction correct.)
That's the point (position) where the spark happens...
(Huh. I never understood all this before... thanks.)

George H.
(in engine/ flywheel cycle) where th
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:31:57 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE
Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.

Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH


Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and
use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open
and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ...
just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !


OK thanks. Me and the boy will go F around with it as
soon as it stops blowing and snowing here.
I found a timing light in the 'tool' bus.
(The tool bus is an old school bus left here by the
previous owner and full of all sorts of junk...
useful stuff.)

George H.


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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 3:38:04 PM UTC-4, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE

Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.


Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH

No timing light required. a test light is helpful to static time but
I've done it for decades just watching for the spark. When the points
open, you get spark. If you can't see or hear the spark and don't have
a test light just grab the coil wire.


Yeah thanks. But I'm certainly not grabbin' any a 'dem wires.
I would have gone out today, but it was blowing and snowing
here.
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Default No spark (distributor question)

On 22/04/2020 02:21, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:31:57 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 4/21/2020 11:44 AM,
wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:05:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Hey, thanks all. The local farm supply had a rebuild kit with
points, (and 20 mil gap tool) capacitor, rotor and four new spark
plugs for $20.

Any hints on setting the timing? I made some marks on the distributor
before taking it off... but I've never adjusted the timing.
(And I've had the tractor for going on 20 years.)

George H.
================================
https://farmmanualsfast.com/products...iABEgKpwfD_BwE
Thanks Jim, I've only got the "Dealer Shop Manual".

George H.
Hmm looks like I need to find which neighbor has a timing light
and wants a beer. :^)

GH

Â* Or you can set the timing marks where it's supposed to be timed and
use a test light as you slowly advance the dist until the points open
and the light comes on . Static timing can get you very very close ...
just be sure the points are properly gapped before you try to time it .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

OK thanks. Me and the boy will go F around with it as
soon as it stops blowing and snowing here.
I found a timing light in the 'tool' bus.
(The tool bus is an old school bus left here by the
previous owner and full of all sorts of junk...
useful stuff.)

George H.


When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test
lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when
the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct
regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times
for initial set-up on cars.

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Default No spark (distributor question)

"David Billington" wrote in message ...


When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test
lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when
the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct
regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times
for initial set-up on cars.

===================================

If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go
out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the
spark jumps.

However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the
light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire
or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after
properly setting them.

The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing
through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases
or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current,
causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly
slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it
tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it.

in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside
the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue
between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder.
https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea
I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an
image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the
term.

Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable.
The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a
transformer.

The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and
current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of
finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across
the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system
whose concept may be easier to understand.

When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the
"dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease
in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries
to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the
spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's
stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have
sparked across and eroded the points.

Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along
with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil
voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The
cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in
their designation.

If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead
Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to
give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should
fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance
mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur
about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the
marks appearing to move on the flywheel.

If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark
further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down
the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same
effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of
preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor

When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had
until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know,
since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly
hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical
engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts
and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast.
Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or
military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use
as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test
stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS.
http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/

Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry,
thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college.

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Default No spark (distributor question)

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead
Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to
give the flame time to spread....

==================

Here's a good description;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

I've seen a mechanic set timing by manually rotating the distributor until
he liked the sound of the exhaust. I set it by the book, but tune old carbs
by idle speed, throttle response and the smell of the exhaust.

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Default No spark (distributor question)

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message ...


When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test
lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when
the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct
regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times
for initial set-up on cars.

===================================

If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go
out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the
spark jumps.

However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the
light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire
or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after
properly setting them.

The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing
through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases
or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current,
causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly
slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it
tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it.

in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside
the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue
between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder.
https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea
I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an
image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the
term.

Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable.
The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a
transformer.

The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and
current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of
finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across
the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system
whose concept may be easier to understand.

When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the
"dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease
in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries
to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the
spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's
stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have
sparked across and eroded the points.

Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along
with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil
voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The
cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in
their designation.

If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead
Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to
give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should
fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance
mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur
about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the
marks appearing to move on the flywheel.

If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark
further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down
the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same
effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of
preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor

When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had
until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know,
since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly
hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical
engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts
and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast.
Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or
military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use
as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test
stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS.
http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/

Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry,
thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college.


Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks.
I did finally understand how my distributor works.
So thanks for that too. In the end I just
put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place.
(I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the
dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the
'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended
7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any
advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between
30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?)

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)



  #22   Report Post  
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Posts: 4,564
Default No spark (distributor question)

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message ...


When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test
lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when
the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct
regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times
for initial set-up on cars.

===================================

If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go
out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the
spark jumps.

However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the
light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire
or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after
properly setting them.

The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing
through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases
or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current,
causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly
slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it
tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it.

in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside
the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue
between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder.
https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea
I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an
image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the
term.

Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable.
The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a
transformer.

The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and
current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of
finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across
the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system
whose concept may be easier to understand.

When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the
"dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease
in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries
to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the
spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's
stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have
sparked across and eroded the points.

Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along
with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil
voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The
cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in
their designation.

If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead
Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to
give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should
fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance
mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur
about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the
marks appearing to move on the flywheel.

If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark
further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down
the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same
effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of
preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor

When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had
until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know,
since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly
hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical
engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts
and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast.
Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or
military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use
as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test
stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS.
http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/

Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry,
thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college.


Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks.
I did finally understand how my distributor works.
So thanks for that too. In the end I just
put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place.
(I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the
dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the
'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended
7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any
advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between
30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?)

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)

Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil.
Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 17
Default No spark (distributor question)

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message ...


When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test
lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when
the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct
regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times
for initial set-up on cars.

===================================

If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go
out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the
spark jumps.

However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the
light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire
or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after
properly setting them.

The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing
through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases
or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current,
causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly
slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it
tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it.

in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside
the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue
between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder.
https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea
I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an
image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the
term.

Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable.
The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a
transformer.

The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and
current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of
finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across
the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system
whose concept may be easier to understand.

When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the
"dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease
in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries
to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the
spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's
stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have
sparked across and eroded the points.

Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along
with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil
voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The
cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in
their designation.

If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead
Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to
give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should
fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance
mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur
about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the
marks appearing to move on the flywheel.

If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark
further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down
the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same
effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of
preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor

When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had
until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know,
since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly
hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical
engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts
and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast.
Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or
military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use
as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test
stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS.
http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/

Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry,
thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college.


Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks.
I did finally understand how my distributor works.
So thanks for that too. In the end I just
put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place.
(I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the
dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the
'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended
7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any
advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between
30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?)

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)

Spark plugs are made in what is called "heat ranges". Read
https://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/spark-plug-heat-range/

--
cheers,

John B.

  #25   Report Post  
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Posts: 270
Default No spark (distributor question)

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 5:04:28 PM UTC-4, Clare wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message ...


When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test
lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when
the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct
regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times
for initial set-up on cars.

===================================

If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go
out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the
spark jumps.

However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the
light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire
or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after
properly setting them.

The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing
through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases
or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current,
causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly
slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it
tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it.

in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside
the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue
between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder.
https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea
I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an
image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the
term.

Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable.
The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a
transformer.

The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and
current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of
finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across
the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system
whose concept may be easier to understand.

When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the
"dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease
in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries
to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the
spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's
stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have
sparked across and eroded the points.

Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along
with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil
voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The
cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in
their designation.

If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead
Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to
give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should
fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance
mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur
about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the
marks appearing to move on the flywheel.

If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark
further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down
the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same
effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of
preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor

When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had
until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know,
since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly
hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical
engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts
and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast.
Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or
military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use
as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test
stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS.
http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/

Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry,
thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college.


Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks.
I did finally understand how my distributor works.
So thanks for that too. In the end I just
put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place.
(I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the
dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the
'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended
7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any
advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between
30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?)

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)

Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil.
Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original


OK Thanks. I'll look into the carb. then.
I'm mostly an idiot when it comes to engines.
(I guess I should go talk to the guys at the tractor
repair/ sales place... well after this virus thing clears up.)

George H.


  #27   Report Post  
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Posts: 270
Default No spark (distributor question)

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)

Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil.
Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original

=====================================

Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells
like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke
gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and then
sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion.


Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the
choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem?
(I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.)

George H.
  #28   Report Post  
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Posts: 5,888
Default No spark (distributor question)



wrote in message
...

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)

Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil.
Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original

=====================================

Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells
like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke
gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and
then
sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion.


Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the
choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem?
(I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.)

George H.

=================================
Ben Franklin couldn't resist:
https://teachingamericanhistory.org/...my-of-farting/

Maybe the carb, or a clogged air filter. Does it backfire?

Normally gas containing 10% ethanol can make an old engine not designed for
it run leaner and lose power. Could a previous owner have tinkered with it,
perhaps drilled out the main jet?

Blowing out the small passages in a carb with compressed air often solves
its problems. First buy a carb rebuild kit so you can replace any torn
gaskets or lost tiny parts. It seems like things I buy precautionary spares
for don't break, which is fine by me. It might help to ask someone with
experience to show you how to work on the carb, though I learned from a
book. Reassembling the float valve is tricky.

I bought a used log splitter for only the cost of its brand new replacement
engine because it had a difficult carb problem from the factory, which I
finally diagnosed as a leak in the brass carburetor float that let it sink
and raise the gas level in the bowl until the mixture was too rich to run.
I'd added a shutoff to the fuel line to help work on it. After sitting for a
week or two the carb gas evaporated and it would start just fine, then bog
down and stall again in a few minutes. I found gasoline in the float by
shaking it.

The leak was impossible to locate, even submerging the dried-out float in
water in a transparent vacuum chamber didn't reveal bubbling, but the
replacement cost only about $3 and the splitter has served well for 20+
years since.

  #30   Report Post  
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Posts: 4,564
Default No spark (distributor question)

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:54:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)

Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil.
Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original

=====================================

Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells
like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke
gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and then
sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion.


Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the
choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem?
(I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.)

George H.

Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black. Check the exhaust - if
its "dry" and black it's running rich. If it's gooey it's oil. If
it's burning oil switch to a heavier oil (I'd run 15w40 or 20W50) and
I'd also try putting some Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil for an hour or
two before draining the oil - It's pretty darn good at freeing uup
stuck piston rings which WILL make the engine burn oil.
How many hours are on the little TO20 and has it ever been rebuilt?
How has it been maintained? The Continental z120 is a pretty tough
little engine but it's been around a LONG time!!!


  #31   Report Post  
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Posts: 5,888
Default No spark (distributor question)

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...

Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black.
==================

The faint blue color of oil smoke can be hard to detect, depending on the
lighting and background color. I just noticed it in a newscast ad video for
a lumberjack competition when chainsaw startup exhaust drifted across a
white poster. I usually don't see my saw's cold startup exhaust as blue or
black against the natural background of green, grey and brown. But then
condensation coming out of my chimney looks white against the sky from down
sun, greyish against the trees from up sun.

Unless you're a smoker the sniff test can be more sensitive, indicating the
rich or leanness of the mixture when the exhaust is clear.

You can search for other people's postings on that engine and tractor. I'm
trying to not burn through too much of my metered 4G internet, since my
unmetered dialup ISP shut down.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.co...c.php?t=745772

  #32   Report Post  
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Posts: 270
Default No spark (distributor question)

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 7:51:44 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...

Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black.
==================

The faint blue color of oil smoke can be hard to detect, depending on the
lighting and background color. I just noticed it in a newscast ad video for
a lumberjack competition when chainsaw startup exhaust drifted across a
white poster. I usually don't see my saw's cold startup exhaust as blue or
black against the natural background of green, grey and brown. But then
condensation coming out of my chimney looks white against the sky from down
sun, greyish against the trees from up sun.

Unless you're a smoker the sniff test can be more sensitive, indicating the
rich or leanness of the mixture when the exhaust is clear.

You can search for other people's postings on that engine and tractor. I'm
trying to not burn through too much of my metered 4G internet, since my
unmetered dialup ISP shut down.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.co...c.php?t=745772


Thanks Jim, I've been to yesterday's tractor... nice place for
used parts. (or it use to be.)

phone internet.
I've got satellite here.(Huhges net)
This improved a few years ago when Blue Horizon... (or some other company)
came into the market and offered a service that still has 'reasonable'
speeds even after you've used up your daily/ monthly data allowance.

Not cheap though.. $60-90/ month

George H.
  #33   Report Post  
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Posts: 270
Default No spark (distributor question)

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 9:08:16 PM UTC-4, Clare wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:54:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 7:13:08 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)

Running rich most likely (float too high?) or possibly pumping oil.
Try a warmer plug. Champion F16 or even D21 instead of the original

=====================================

Running rich and burning oil give different exhaust smells. Oil smells
like -- burnt oil, a rich mixture smells like solvents, applying the choke
gives you an example. You can briefly hold your hand in the exhaust and then
sniff it. A modern car exhaust is the standard for proper combustion.


Thanks Jim. So if my exhaust smells the same as when I leave the
choke on, then maybe it's a carb problem?
(I'm resisting the urge to make some fart joke.)

George H.

Oil smoke is blue - rich fuel smoke is black. Check the exhaust - if
its "dry" and black it's running rich. If it's gooey it's oil. If
it's burning oil switch to a heavier oil (I'd run 15w40 or 20W50) and
I'd also try putting some Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil for an hour or
two before draining the oil - It's pretty darn good at freeing uup
stuck piston rings which WILL make the engine burn oil.
How many hours are on the little TO20 and has it ever been rebuilt?
How has it been maintained? The Continental z120 is a pretty tough
little engine but it's been around a LONG time!!!


Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day.
It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke
on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em
in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the
float level and that looked spot on.
I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago.
With any luck she'll out live me. :^)

George H.
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Default No spark (distributor question)

phone internet.
I've got satellite here.(Huhges net)
This improved a few years ago when Blue Horizon... (or some other company)
came into the market and offered a service that still has 'reasonable'
speeds even after you've used up your daily/ monthly data allowance.

Not cheap though.. $60-90/ month

George H.

======================
Glad to help, and to hear that what I wrote was comprehensible. I flunked
Technical Writing in college and post here for practice.

I feel cheated by monthly TV/phone/net bills higher than what I pay for
electricity ($40). My computer-clueless neighbor's difficulties with
Internet-only government and commercial interactions indicate that Net
access is becoming a basic necessity. Perhaps that's intentional because it
drives people to carry smart phones that report their location.

During the last extended power outage when power, cable and phone lines were
down I couldn't find any useful weather info on the radio, but my 3G
cellular Internet gave me a radar image of what precipitation was coming and
about how soon it would arrive. I knew when to clean up fallen trees and
repair roof damage and when to cover it with a tarp.

I was on the predecessor of wireless Internet in 1972 when I maintained an
experimental Army digital tactical (mobile) communications network. During
exercises we were encouraged to chat with other nodes via Teletype to
generate random traffic.

The unit I was with drove up a dirt path to a forested mountaintop near the
Iron Curtain and set up the equivalent of a cellular tower, communications
center and its support village.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/rf...ngrange-satcom

"Military forces have been using troposcatter communications in various
forms since the 1960s to transmit voice and data without the use of
satellites or high-frequency (HF) radio signals."

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Default No spark (distributor question)

I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago.
With any luck she'll out live me. :^)

George H.

=================================

Thanks for the TO20 recommendation. I used my machine shop to build a
hydraulic front end loader attachment for my 18HP garden tractor to clear
snow, for which it worked quite well, however the tractor isn't heavy or
strong enough to more than scratch at our rocky New England soil.

I'm looking at small Kubotas but would consider anything for which I can
still get parts that I can't make. For instance although I machined a new
steering sector gear and linkage for it I can't harden and temper such parts
very well in my wood stove.




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Default No spark (distributor question)

On 26/04/2020 19:23, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message ...


When the points open the light goes out at least if you have the test
lamp wired between the dizzy and the coil low tension side to show when
the points are conducting. Your post about the Aussie guy is correct
regarding the way the points operate, I've used static timing many times
for initial set-up on cars.

===================================

If the test lamp is in series between the coil and breaker points it will go
out when the points open and interrupt the coil current, which is when the
spark jumps.

However I connected the lamp across (in parallel with) the points so the
light turns on when they open, and I didn't need to disconnect the coil wire
or disturb the points or distributor position by reconnecting it after
properly setting them.

The coil is a large inductor which converts the energy of current flowing
through it into a magnetic field. When the strength of this field increases
or decreases it acts like a generator that opposes the change in current,
causing the current to appear to have inertia. Current increases fairly
slowly when 12V is applied across the coil by closing the points, and it
tries very hard to continue flowing when the points open to break it.

in the old low-tension (low-voltage) ignition system the points were inside
the combustion chamber. When the points opened the current would continue
between them as a spark, like arc welding, which fired the cylinder.
https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/ga...n-zmgz14jjzbea
I've burned through too much of my daily internet ration looking for an
image of the early Daimler igniter which IIRC really was pointed, thus the
term.

Separating the switching and spark gap functions made both more reliable.
The high tension system you have uses a coil with two windings, a
transformer.

The low voltage or primary winding is matched to the battery voltage and
current, and the high voltage or secondary winding of many more turns of
finer wire is optimized to create a high voltage, low current spark across
the spark plug. Otherwise it operates like the simpler low tension system
whose concept may be easier to understand.

When the points close the current and magnetic field build up during the
"dwell" time, which is part of the distributor shaft cam profile. The grease
in the ignition kit goes on this cam. When the points open the field tries
to keep the current flowing through both windings, and succeeds through the
spark plug gap, where the arc current rapidly depletes the magnetic field's
stored energy. The condenser (mostly) absorbs the current that would have
sparked across and eroded the points.

Then the condenser returns its stored electric charge to the coil, and along
with other inherently capacitive elements of the system causes the coil
voltage and current to oscillate and create radio and TV interference. The
cure is energy-absorbing resistance built into spark plugs with an R in
their designation.

If the gas vapor all ignited instantly it could be fired at piston Top Dead
Center, but since it doesn't (and shouldn't) the spark occurs before TDC to
give the flame time to spread. The timing mark is when/where the plug should
fire at idle speed. As the engine speeds up the centrifugal advance
mechanism rotates the breaker point mounting plate to make the spark occur
about the same length of time before TDC, so a strobe timing light shows the
marks appearing to move on the flywheel.

If the distributor has a vacuum advance its purpose is to advance the spark
further when the engine is at speed but lightly loaded, just cruising down
the highway. This improves fuel economy. Modern engines achieve the same
effect by advancing ignition timing until they sense the loud onset of
preignition ( knock), then backing it off a bit.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/r/...a-knock-sensor

When I entered the automotive electronics business in 1973 the above had
until recently been all the electricity an automotive engineer had to know,
since they bought radios from elsewhere. The new engineers Detroit quickly
hired weren't familiar with the many non-theoretical aspects of electrical
engineering such as component tolerance and corrosion of exposed contacts
and the rushed designs of 1974 plainly showed it, though they learned fast.
Some of what they introduced was taken from chemical lab instruments or
military aircraft, but those were much too complex and expensive to use
as-is. I had to learn fast myself in order to build the factory test
stations for the new electronics they were introducing like ABS.
http://www.safebraking.com/before-ab...brake-systems/

Fortunately I had studied material science, combustion chemistry,
thermocouples, hot wire mass air flow sensors etc in college.

Wow! OK more than I can digest. But thanks.
I did finally understand how my distributor works.
So thanks for that too. In the end I just
put it back together. Set the rotor at ~ the right place.
(I took a picture), checked for spark. A yup. And advanced the
dist. til it started. The timing light worked and the
'old girl' started at 30 deg. I set it for the recommended
7-8 deg. And then cranked up the engine rpm. I didn't see any
advancement of the timing. She seemed to run OK between
30 and 7 deg and I set it for 15. (?)

So let me ask a related question. The plugs are always
getting fouled (black fried gunk) on this tractor and
I clean 'em with kerosene. Could I maybe fix that some
with better timing? Though it does other things this
tractor spends most of it's life dragging a mower deck around
the 'estate' (The mower deck is called an estate groomer in the
manual. :^) Sorta medium rpm 2k, 1st or 2nd gear (depending on grass)
the grass is a heavy load on the pto/engine.

George H.
(did you guys do anything actively to reduce the political
crap on this site/net? or was it natural?)


If it's like the Lucas distributors I'm familiar with then the advance
unit can seize on the central spindle normally through lack of oiling
the centre shaft. Usually easy to dismantle, clean out any congealed
lubricant, oil and re-assemble and you should have functional advance.

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On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 05:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
wrote:

Huge snip
Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day.
It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke
on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em
in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the
float level and that looked spot on.
I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago.
With any luck she'll out live me. :^)


Found a nice service manual here (~55mb):

http://www.ntractorclub.com/manuals/...e%20Manual.pdf

===
Per that manual you should have a "Delco-Remy Model
No. 1111722 with crankshaft rotation advance of 26 and 24 degrees
respectively, both models are fully automatic..

The centrifugal advance mechanism is in-
corporated in the distributor to automatically
vary the timing of the spark with respect to
the position of the piston in the cylinder. At
high speeds, the spark must occur at the plug
earlier in the compression stroke In order for
the fuel mixture to deliver full power.
The advance mechanism consists of an ad-
vance cam, breaker cam, a pair of ' advance
weights, springs and a weight base that is In-
tegral with the distributor shaft.

At low speeds, the advance weights are held in to-
ward the center by the spring tension. As
the speed of the distributor shaft increases,
the centrifugal force overcomes the spring
tension and the weights move outward and the
toggles on the weights engage the advance
cam. This rotates the advance cam and break-
er cam which in turn allows the breaker cam
to open and close the contact points earlier,
thus advancing the spark...
===

Maybe help you out some ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:21:18 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 05:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
wrote:

Huge snip
Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day.
It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke
on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em
in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the
float level and that looked spot on.
I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago.
With any luck she'll out live me. :^)


Found a nice service manual here (~55mb):

http://www.ntractorclub.com/manuals/...e%20Manual.pdf

===
Per that manual you should have a "Delco-Remy Model
No. 1111722 with crankshaft rotation advance of 26 and 24 degrees
respectively, both models are fully automatic..

The centrifugal advance mechanism is in-
corporated in the distributor to automatically
vary the timing of the spark with respect to
the position of the piston in the cylinder. At
high speeds, the spark must occur at the plug
earlier in the compression stroke In order for
the fuel mixture to deliver full power.
The advance mechanism consists of an ad-
vance cam, breaker cam, a pair of ' advance
weights, springs and a weight base that is In-
tegral with the distributor shaft.

At low speeds, the advance weights are held in to-
ward the center by the spring tension. As
the speed of the distributor shaft increases,
the centrifugal force overcomes the spring
tension and the weights move outward and the
toggles on the weights engage the advance
cam. This rotates the advance cam and break-
er cam which in turn allows the breaker cam
to open and close the contact points earlier,
thus advancing the spark...
===

Maybe help you out some ;-)

I really suspect it is oil.
Interesting to know what oil is being run and when it was last
changed. Like I noted before I'd be putting some MMO in the oil and
running it for a few hours, then drain the oil and refill with 15w40
all fleet (like rotella T) or 20W50 Castrol GTX or similar and see
what happens. Quite possible the valve guide seals are poor but he
DID say he had the head rebuilt recently so more likely the rings. The
rings tend to sludge up and stick - and the MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil)
or Shaler Rislone can loosen the rings. I used to use Rislone years
back but MMO is a lot less harsh and just as effective.
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On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 6:12:57 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago.
With any luck she'll out live me. :^)

George H.

=================================

Thanks for the TO20 recommendation. I used my machine shop to build a
hydraulic front end loader attachment for my 18HP garden tractor to clear
snow, for which it worked quite well, however the tractor isn't heavy or
strong enough to more than scratch at our rocky New England soil.

I'm looking at small Kubotas but would consider anything for which I can
still get parts that I can't make. For instance although I machined a new
steering sector gear and linkage for it I can't harden and temper such parts
very well in my wood stove.


Oh I'm not sure it's a recommendation. It's just what I stumbled upon.
And yes it's very nice that the local Massey-Ferguson dealer still has
parts for it. (And knowledgeable guys behind the counter.) Old tractors
are nice 'cause they use to let a model run for several years... and
there were lots of them made.

Bad things,
it has no (external) hydraulics, and the pto/ hydraulic pump share
the pto power... so you have to engage the pto to raise the 3-pt hitch.
The lift(3-pt hitch) only has raise and lower positions...
but I added this gizmo that does some feedback and allows for
intermediate heights.

The brakes* are kinda wimpy... but maybe this is typical of tractors?

It's got a six speed transmission. (I've never had it in 5th 'road'
gear.) Which I hear is preferred to the four speed Ford 9-N,
but I've never driven a 9-N so don't know.

George H.


*I only fixed the brakes a few years ago... who needs brakes?
My son wanted to drive the tractor for "take your tractor to school
day" But it was a rainy crappy day and didn't happen.
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On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:21:22 AM UTC-4, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 05:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
wrote:

Huge snip
Hi Clare, others. I tried the smell test the other day.
It's got more of an oily smell than the gas I smell when I leave the choke
on. TBH the black plugs are not that much of a problem. I clean 'em
in the spring and maybe another time during the summer. I did check the
float level and that looked spot on.
I do love this old tractor. I had the head rebuilt a few years ago.
With any luck she'll out live me. :^)


Found a nice service manual here (~55mb):

http://www.ntractorclub.com/manuals/...e%20Manual.pdf

===
Per that manual you should have a "Delco-Remy Model
No. 1111722 with crankshaft rotation advance of 26 and 24 degrees
respectively, both models are fully automatic..

The centrifugal advance mechanism is in-
corporated in the distributor to automatically
vary the timing of the spark with respect to
the position of the piston in the cylinder. At
high speeds, the spark must occur at the plug
earlier in the compression stroke In order for
the fuel mixture to deliver full power.
The advance mechanism consists of an ad-
vance cam, breaker cam, a pair of ' advance
weights, springs and a weight base that is In-
tegral with the distributor shaft.

At low speeds, the advance weights are held in to-
ward the center by the spring tension. As
the speed of the distributor shaft increases,
the centrifugal force overcomes the spring
tension and the weights move outward and the
toggles on the weights engage the advance
cam. This rotates the advance cam and break-
er cam which in turn allows the breaker cam
to open and close the contact points earlier,
thus advancing the spark...
===

Maybe help you out some ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI


Thanks! I've got that manual.. but it cost me ~$20.
So these cams and springs are down inside the distro somewhere.
(maybe I'll give it a look see... now I've had it apart once. :^)

George H.
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