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Old November 7th 19, 04:09 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle. I'm trying to determine the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine. As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool holder in
a tool changer. To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be. Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer. Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs. Just do it once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle. Its already saving me a lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.

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Old November 7th 19, 09:35 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.¬* I'm trying to determine the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.¬* As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool holder in
a tool changer.¬* To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be.¬* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.¬* Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.¬* Just do it once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.¬* Its already saving me a lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This
makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a height
gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or
measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long as
everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for
the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine
is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in
the G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work
offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast
enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change. Sometimes
quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just
being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a
lot of time already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and
using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just like I do on the
machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am wondering if
its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can
tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool
changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how firmly
it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure
the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I missing
something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead of using
the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the
surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that would result
in different measurements of the same tool just depending on how firmly
I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand. Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it
would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I could
get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the
machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.
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Old November 7th 19, 10:01 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,071
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

Greetings Bob,
There is some variation in the flange location of regular CAT
spindles. But the tool doesn't really draw very far up into the taper
when clamped. Not enough to matter. In order to do so the socket would
need to expand and/or the tool shank would need to shrink quite a bit
and this doesn't happen. So tool setters just use a socket ground to
the tool taper and the tool is set into this socket. This socket is
either set on a tool setting fixture, or is mounted in a tool setting
fixture. And you can get a socket to set on a reference surface like a
surface plate. So you can do exactly this. I wouldn't be surprised if
you can buy one of these sockets from some outfit like MSC. If you
can't then just turn one.
Eric

On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:35:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.* I'm trying to determine the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.* As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool holder in
a tool changer.* To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be.* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.* Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.* Just do it once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.* Its already saving me a lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This
makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a height
gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or
measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long as
everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for
the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine
is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in
the G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work
offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast
enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change. Sometimes
quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just
being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a
lot of time already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and
using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just like I do on the
machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am wondering if
its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can
tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool
changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how firmly
it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure
the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I missing
something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead of using
the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the
surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that would result
in different measurements of the same tool just depending on how firmly
I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand. Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it
would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I could
get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the
machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.


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Old November 7th 19, 10:55 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1,587
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling


On 11/7/2019 2:01 PM, wrote:
Greetings Bob,
There is some variation in the flange location of regular CAT
spindles. But the tool doesn't really draw very far up into the taper
when clamped. Not enough to matter. In order to do so the socket would
need to expand and/or the tool shank would need to shrink quite a bit
and this doesn't happen. So tool setters just use a socket ground to
the tool taper and the tool is set into this socket. This socket is
either set on a tool setting fixture, or is mounted in a tool setting
fixture. And you can get a socket to set on a reference surface like a
surface plate. So you can do exactly this. I wouldn't be surprised if
you can buy one of these sockets from some outfit like MSC. If you
can't then just turn one.
Eric



So from reading that I can't (as I suspected) use the ring as a
reference. It also seems that if I want to measure off machine with a
fixture, I'll need to also use a physical tool zero mounted in a tool
holder as well. Maybe something like a gage pin in a collet chuck tool
holder.

The more I think about it though swapping tools between machines while
possible might be confusing and lead to crashes. I'd be better off to
go ahead and just duplicate tools. Probably need another dozen tool
holders eventually to cover the range of commonly used tools.

So you think just setting the tool in a socket fixture will be
repeatable enough it just won't matter? I'm not a whizz on the lathe,
but I can probably make something that will work.




On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:35:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle. I'm trying to determine the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine. As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool

holder in
a tool changer. To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be. Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer. Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs. Just do it once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle. Its already saving me a lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This
makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a height
gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or
measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long as
everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for
the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine
is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in
the G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work
offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast
enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change. Sometimes
quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just
being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a
lot of time already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and
using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just like I do on the
machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am wondering if
its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can
tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool
changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how firmly
it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure
the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I missing
something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead of using
the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the
surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that would result
in different measurements of the same tool just depending on how firmly
I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand. Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it
would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I could
get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the
machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.



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Old November 8th 19, 12:04 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,493
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am
wondering if its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but
as near as I can tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang
the tool in a tool changer. From what I understand the tool is only
reference by how firmly it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me
that says I can only measure the tool length offset on the machine
its being used on. Am I missing something? I guess I could have a
physical tool zero instead of using the spindle face, and have an
iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the surface plate to put tools in
to measure. Seems to me that would result in different measurements
of the same tool just depending on how firmly I set the tool holder
in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.


Could you set up a dial indicator to read the flange in the spindle,
then run all your sockets thru and record the variation?

Instead of machining a socket you could cast one.
https://www.amazon.com/RotoMetals-Lo.../dp/B001QUVQE2

Clamp two tool holders on opposite ends of a shaft to fixture the
lower one exactly upright in the mold.




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Old November 8th 19, 12:24 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2018
Posts: 18
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed machines
to an ISO20 quick change spindle. I'm trying to determine the easiest
way to measure tool length off the machine. As near as I can tell the
only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool holder in a tool
changer. To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to be.
Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper socket
to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer. Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs. Just do it once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle. Its already saving me a lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a second
machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is pulled
up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This makes it
dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a height gage. I can
measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or measure on the
surface plate with a height gage and as long as everything is cool they
measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for the work I do, and far
better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine is
always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in the
G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work offsets. Its
not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle noses.
I had to use the height setter after every tool change. Sometimes quite
creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just being able
to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a lot of time
already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and using M6 G43 to
apply the tool height offset just like I do on the machine in paragraph
one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around
how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am wondering if its even
practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can tell its only
purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool changer. From what I
understand the tool is only reference by how firmly it is pulled into the
spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure the tool length offset on
the machine its being used on. Am I missing something? I guess I could have
a physical tool zero instead of using the spindle face, and have an iso 20
ground "socket" I placed on the surface plate to put tools in to measure.
Seems to me that would result in different measurements of the same tool
just depending on how firmly I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting
on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand. Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it would
be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I could get
reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the machines I
could just measure once, and plug the value into both machines saving me
time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much run
continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out how to
save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool lengths
might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per part off a 50
piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.


I have no experience with this but I wonder if you could put each toolholder
in your spindle and measure the distance between the ring and some reference
surface on the spindle? That would answer your first question. Second,
even if they are different, could you measure each toolholder and engrave
its offset on the ring? Then you just add that offset to the tool length
when you set up a new tool in that holder. Not the "right" way others have
posted where you have a socket on your surface plate, but maybe it would be
good enough?

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

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Old November 8th 19, 12:48 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 268
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On 07/11/2019 23:04, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am
wondering if its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but
as near as I can tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang
the tool in a tool changer. From what I understand the tool is only
reference by how firmly it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me
that says I can only measure the tool length offset on the machine
its being used on. Am I missing something? I guess I could have a
physical tool zero instead of using the spindle face, and have an
iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the surface plate to put tools in
to measure. Seems to me that would result in different measurements
of the same tool just depending on how firmly I set the tool holder
in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

Could you set up a dial indicator to read the flange in the spindle,
then run all your sockets thru and record the variation?

Instead of machining a socket you could cast one.
https://www.amazon.com/RotoMetals-Lo.../dp/B001QUVQE2

Clamp two tool holders on opposite ends of a shaft to fixture the
lower one exactly upright in the mold.


Might be an idea but check the characteristics of the alloy being used
as not all are dimensionally stable, IIRC some actually shrink slightly
after a time to allow for removal and gauging of holes. Also I have
Bendalloy and it is recommended to coat the tube internally with oil to
prevent sticking to the tube so the release film thickness might be an
issue.

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Old November 8th 19, 01:17 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1,587
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On 11/7/2019 4:24 PM, Carl wrote:
"Bob La Londe"¬* wrote in message ...

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.¬* I'm trying to determine
the easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.¬* As near as I
can tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool
holder in a tool changer.¬* To do that it really doesn't have to be
all that consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement
needs to be. Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy
a taper socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.¬* Just doing quick changes and wanting
to use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.¬* Just do it
once at the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.¬* Its already saving me a lot
of time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle.
This makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a
height gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height
setter or measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long
as everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough
for the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary
beyond the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table
down and then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter.
The machine is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work
offset. Atleast in the G54 offset. I may use other values when using
additional work offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed
mill, but its fast enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change.
Sometimes quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20
spindle. Just being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap
tools saves me a lot of time already, but I want to start setting up
the tool table and using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just
like I do on the machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am wondering
if its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I
can tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a
tool changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how
firmly it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only
measure the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I
missing something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead
of using the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed
on the surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that
would result in different measurements of the same tool just depending
on how firmly I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the
surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan
to upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand.
Just haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible
it would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I
could get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of
the machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.


I have no experience with this but I wonder if you could put each
toolholder in your spindle and measure the distance between the ring and
some reference surface on the spindle?¬* That would answer your first
question.¬* Second, even if they are different, could you measure each
toolholder and engrave its offset on the ring?¬* Then you just add that
offset to the tool length when you set up a new tool in that holder.
Not the "right" way others have posted where you have a socket on your
surface plate, but maybe it would be good enough?



I would not want to risk engraving as these are run at 24K RPM. It
probably would not fail catastrophically, but it might contribute to
long term bearing life. I have considered seeing if I could measure
these relative to the spindle, but I'm not sure how I would go about it.
I don't think a "stack of shims" would get me there.



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Old November 8th 19, 01:18 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On 11/7/2019 4:48 PM, David Billington wrote:
On 07/11/2019 23:04, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am
wondering if its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but
as near as I can tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang
the tool in a tool changer. From what I understand the tool is only
reference by how firmly it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me
that says I can only measure the tool length offset on the machine
its being used on. Am I missing something? I guess I could have a
physical tool zero instead of using the spindle face, and have an
iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the surface plate to put tools in
to measure. Seems to me that would result in different measurements
of the same tool just depending on how firmly I set the tool holder
in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

Could you set up a dial indicator to read the flange in the spindle,
then run all your sockets thru and record the variation?

Instead of machining a socket you could cast one.
https://www.amazon.com/RotoMetals-Lo.../dp/B001QUVQE2


Clamp two tool holders on opposite ends of a shaft to fixture the
lower one exactly upright in the mold.


Might be an idea but check the characteristics of the alloy being used
as not all are dimensionally stable, IIRC some actually shrink slightly
after a time to allow for removal and gauging of holes. Also I have
Bendalloy and it is recommended to coat the tube internally with oil to
prevent sticking to the tube so the release film thickness might be an
issue.



Also, most of the low melt alloys I have looked at are pretty soft.
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Old November 8th 19, 01:22 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On 11/7/2019 2:55 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

On 11/7/2019 2:01 PM, wrote:
Greetings Bob,
There is some variation in the flange location of regular CAT
spindles. But the tool doesn't really draw very far up into the taper
when clamped. Not enough to matter. In order to do so the socket would
need to expand and/or the tool shank would need to shrink quite a bit
and this doesn't happen.¬* So tool setters just use a socket ground to
the tool taper and the tool is set¬* into this socket. This socket is
either set on a tool setting fixture, or is mounted in a tool setting
fixture. And you can get a socket to set on a reference surface like a
surface plate. So you can do exactly this. I wouldn't be surprised if
you can buy one of these sockets from some outfit like MSC. If you
can't then just turn one.
Eric



So from reading that I can't (as I suspected) use the ring as a
reference.¬* It also seems that if I want to measure off machine with a
fixture, I'll need to also use a physical tool zero mounted in a tool
holder as well.¬* Maybe something like a gage pin in a collet chuck tool
holder.

The more I think about it though swapping tools between machines while
possible might be confusing and lead to crashes.¬* I'd be better off to
go ahead and just duplicate tools.¬* Probably need another dozen tool
holders eventually to cover the range of commonly used tools.

So you think just setting the tool in a socket fixture will be
repeatable enough it just won't matter?¬* I'm not a whizz on the lathe,
but I can probably make something that will work.




On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:35:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.¬* I'm trying to determine

the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.¬* As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool

holder in
a tool changer.¬* To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be.¬* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.¬* Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.¬* Just do it

once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.¬* Its already saving me a

lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.


Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This
makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a

height
gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or
measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long as
everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for
the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary

beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down

and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine
is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in
the G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work
offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast
enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change.

Sometimes
quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just
being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a
lot of time already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and
using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just like I do on the
machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am

wondering if
its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can
tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool
changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how

firmly
it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure
the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I missing
something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead of using
the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the
surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that would result
in different measurements of the same tool just depending on how firmly
I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand.

Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it
would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I

could
get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the
machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.






I'm having a hard time finding a measuring fixture for any 20 taper.
The smallest I can find is for 30 taper tool holders. It looks like
making one really is my only option.



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