Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11   Report Post  
Old November 8th 19, 02:26 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2018
Posts: 24
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...

On 11/7/2019 4:24 PM, Carl wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle. I'm trying to determine the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine. As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool holder
in a tool changer. To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be. Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer. Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs. Just do it once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle. Its already saving me a lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.


Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This
makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a height
gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or
measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long as
everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for
the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine
is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in
the G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work
offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast
enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change. Sometimes
quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just
being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a
lot of time already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and
using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just like I do on the
machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am wondering if
its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can
tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool
changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how firmly
it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure
the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I missing
something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead of using
the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the
surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that would result
in different measurements of the same tool just depending on how firmly
I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand. Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it
would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I could
get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the
machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.


I have no experience with this but I wonder if you could put each
toolholder in your spindle and measure the distance between the ring and
some reference surface on the spindle? That would answer your first
question. Second, even if they are different, could you measure each
toolholder and engrave its offset on the ring? Then you just add that
offset to the tool length when you set up a new tool in that holder. Not
the "right" way others have posted where you have a socket on your
surface plate, but maybe it would be good enough?



I would not want to risk engraving as these are run at 24K RPM. It
probably would not fail catastrophically, but it might contribute to long
term bearing life. I have considered seeing if I could measure these
relative to the spindle, but I'm not sure how I would go about it. I don't
think a "stack of shims" would get me there.


The engraving was just for convenience at setup time so you didn't have to
track down the table of offsets for each holder. I was thinking of
something like a dial test indicator in a magnetic base attached to the
spindle head, so that the DTI arm rested on the top surface of the flange so
you could remove and insert holders in the spindle. Zero the DTI on the
first one, then the rest of the holders are relative to that one. Put a
tool in the first one and measure from tool point to the top of the flange,
and then use that plus the DTI reading for another holder to know what to
set the tool at in that holder. You will have to either make a fixture with
a hole that the taper drops through, with a flat surface so the cutting tool
is sticking straight up, and then set that fixture on your surface plate.
Or maybe just hold the top of the flange on the edge of your surface plate
so part of the flange rests on the plate and the taper portion hangs down,
and use your height gauge on the top of the tool to set the height.

If nothing else you could set up the DTI and check a couple of holders to
see how reproducible the flange location is. Oh, and manually rotate the
spindle to see how square and flat the top of the flange is. I've never
seen this done, but you asked for ideas :-).

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames


  #12   Report Post  
Old November 8th 19, 02:56 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,750
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.* I'm trying to determine the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.* As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool holder in
a tool changer.* To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be.* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.* Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.* Just do it once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.* Its already saving me a lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



I ran across this old thread on Practical Machinist:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-taper-232446/

It gives me the impression that I should be able to turn a fixture for
measuring tool height "good enough" even at my modest skill level on the
lathe.

  #13   Report Post  
Old November 9th 19, 01:43 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,750
Default ISO20 Taper Measuring Fixture

On 11/7/2019 6:56 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.* I'm trying to determine
the easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.* As near as I
can tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool
holder in a tool changer.* To do that it really doesn't have to be all
that consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement
needs to be.* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy
a taper socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.* Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.* Just do it once
at the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.* Its already saving me a lot
of time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



I ran across this old thread on Practical Machinist:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-taper-232446/


It gives me the impression that I should be able to turn a fixture for
measuring tool height "good enough" even at my modest skill level on the
lathe.



Well, I made a fixture to hold the tool holders to measure. Now I need
to make up a physical tool zero reference tool.

I turned a center in the three jaw. Then I mounted a tool holder
between centers. An indicator mounted in a lathe tool holder made it
pretty much dead easy to measure rise over run with the saddle. I did a
little math, looked at the protractor on the compound, and set it by eye.

I had to check it three times. The compound isn't all that smooth. I
probably should take it apart, stone it, and then put it back together a
little tighter than it is. I didn't have to check it three times because
it was off. I had to check it three times because it was dead on first
try. The needle jumped a bit due to the import quality of the compound,
but the average from end to end was nearly perfect. I was using a half
though indicator. It was bouncing less than two lines, and settled in
the middle when ever I stopped moving.

Turning the fixture itself was planned to do all important cuts in the
first setup. Cut the taper and the reference surface on the bottom.
Everything else was unimportant. I used a piece of stock that already
had a small hole in it big enough for the bottom of the tool taper and
the pull stud. I face it off, turned the taper with the compound, and
then made a clearance cut below the planned bottom/base of the fixture.

I had it mounted pretty close to the chuck. A regular left hand tool
wouldn't fit in the space I had available so I used a carbide insert
parting tool. I opened up the clearance cut and angled the parting tool
slightly away from the chuck. It has side side clearance on the insert,
but I wanted to make sure I could use it to make a nice clean draw cut
out of the slot to square up a ring on the bottom of the fixture. After
I was happy I parted it off and turned it around in the chuck.

With the work piece mounted bottom out I turned a recess in the bottom
leaving just a narrow ring around the outside for it to rest on.

The tool holders set down in the fixture on their taper and don't wobble
even a little. If I press them in hard there is just the tiniest amount
of stick when I pull them out. They feel solid in the hole. I don't
know if the taper is a match, but as long as its perpendicular to the
bottom I think it will be good enough.

I did everything I know how to do to make the fixture. Tomorrow I'll
test it on the surface plate with real tools in the taper. Then I'll
make some cuts with them and see what happens.

I'm not going to blue it and check it. I don't care if its a perfect
taper. I just care that the tools seat to a consistent depth and pretty
close to perpendicular with the base.


  #14   Report Post  
Old November 9th 19, 07:13 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,163
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:22:05 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/7/2019 2:55 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

On 11/7/2019 2:01 PM, wrote:
Greetings Bob,
There is some variation in the flange location of regular CAT
spindles. But the tool doesn't really draw very far up into the taper
when clamped. Not enough to matter. In order to do so the socket would
need to expand and/or the tool shank would need to shrink quite a bit
and this doesn't happen.* So tool setters just use a socket ground to
the tool taper and the tool is set* into this socket. This socket is
either set on a tool setting fixture, or is mounted in a tool setting
fixture. And you can get a socket to set on a reference surface like a
surface plate. So you can do exactly this. I wouldn't be surprised if
you can buy one of these sockets from some outfit like MSC. If you
can't then just turn one.
Eric



So from reading that I can't (as I suspected) use the ring as a
reference.* It also seems that if I want to measure off machine with a
fixture, I'll need to also use a physical tool zero mounted in a tool
holder as well.* Maybe something like a gage pin in a collet chuck tool
holder.

The more I think about it though swapping tools between machines while
possible might be confusing and lead to crashes.* I'd be better off to
go ahead and just duplicate tools.* Probably need another dozen tool
holders eventually to cover the range of commonly used tools.

So you think just setting the tool in a socket fixture will be
repeatable enough it just won't matter?* I'm not a whizz on the lathe,
but I can probably make something that will work.




On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:35:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.* I'm trying to determine

the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.* As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool

holder in
a tool changer.* To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be.* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.* Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.* Just do it

once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.* Its already saving me a

lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.


Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This
makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a

height
gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or
measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long as
everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for
the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary

beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down

and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine
is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in
the G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work
offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast
enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change.

Sometimes
quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just
being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a
lot of time already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and
using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just like I do on the
machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am

wondering if
its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can
tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool
changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how

firmly
it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure
the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I missing
something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead of using
the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the
surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that would result
in different measurements of the same tool just depending on how firmly
I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand.

Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it
would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I

could
get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the
machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.





I'm having a hard time finding a measuring fixture for any 20 taper.
The smallest I can find is for 30 taper tool holders. It looks like
making one really is my only option.

You really don't need contact for the whole taper length, just an area
of contact at the top and bottom. This means that it may be easier for
you to fit your home made taper to the tool because you anly need to
fit the taper to two small areas. You could probably get away with an
aluminum socket but I would use steel. Just use bearing blue to to see
where you need to polish away the last little bit if boring the taper
doesn't work.
Eric
  #15   Report Post  
Old November 11th 19, 03:47 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,750
Default ISO20 Taper Measuring Fixture

On 11/8/2019 5:43 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 11/7/2019 6:56 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.* I'm trying to determine
the easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.* As near as I
can tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool
holder in a tool changer.* To do that it really doesn't have to be
all that consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement
needs to be.* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or
buy a taper socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.* Just doing quick changes and wanting
to use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.* Just do it
once at the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.* Its already saving me a lot
of time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.



I ran across this old thread on Practical Machinist:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-taper-232446/


It gives me the impression that I should be able to turn a fixture for
measuring tool height "good enough" even at my modest skill level on
the lathe.



Well, I made a fixture to hold the tool holders to measure.* Now I need
to make up a physical tool zero reference tool.

I turned a center in the three jaw.* Then I mounted a tool holder
between centers.* An indicator mounted in a lathe tool holder made it
pretty much dead easy to measure rise over run with the saddle.* I did a
little math, looked at the protractor on the compound, and set it by eye.

I had to check it three times.* The compound isn't all that smooth.* I
probably should take it apart, stone it, and then put it back together a
little tighter than it is. I didn't have to check it three times because
it was off.* I had to check it three times because it was dead on first
try.* The needle jumped a bit due to the import quality of the compound,
but the average from end to end was nearly perfect. I was using a half
though indicator.* It was bouncing less than two lines, and settled in
the middle when ever I stopped moving.

Turning the fixture itself was planned to do all important cuts in the
first setup.* Cut the taper and the reference surface on the bottom.
Everything else was unimportant.* I used a piece of stock that already
had a small hole in it big enough for the bottom of the tool taper and
the pull stud.* I face it off, turned the taper with the compound, and
then made a clearance cut below the planned bottom/base of the fixture.

I had it mounted pretty close to the chuck.* A regular left hand tool
wouldn't fit in the space I had available so I used a carbide insert
parting tool.* I opened up the clearance cut and angled the parting tool
slightly away from the chuck.* It has side side clearance on the insert,
but I wanted to make sure I could use it to make a nice clean draw cut
out of the slot to square up a ring on the bottom of the fixture.* After
I was happy I parted it off and turned it around in the chuck.

With the work piece mounted bottom out I turned a recess in the bottom
leaving just a narrow ring around the outside for it to rest on.

The tool holders set down in the fixture on their taper and don't wobble
even a little. If I press them in hard there is just the tiniest amount
of stick when I pull them out.* They feel solid in the hole.* I don't
know if the taper is a match, but as long as its perpendicular to the
bottom I think it will be good enough.

I did everything I know how to do to make the fixture.* Tomorrow I'll
test it on the surface plate with real tools in the taper.* Then I'll
make some cuts with them and see what happens.

I'm not going to blue it and check it.* I don't care if its a perfect
taper.* I just care that the tools seat to a consistent depth and pretty
close to perpendicular with the base.




I wasn't going to test it for fit up since that's not really what its
for, but I couldn't help myself. I wiped the taper of my new "tool
zero" with write erase marker, and dropped it into the fixture. I held
it in firmly and gave it a spin. About 90% of the marker was wiped off.


  #16   Report Post  
Old November 11th 19, 06:21 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,163
Default ISO20 Taper Measuring Fixture

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:47:01 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/8/2019 5:43 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 11/7/2019 6:56 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.* I'm trying to determine
the easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.* As near as I
can tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool
holder in a tool changer.* To do that it really doesn't have to be
all that consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement
needs to be.* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or
buy a taper socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.* Just doing quick changes and wanting
to use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.* Just do it
once at the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.* Its already saving me a lot
of time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.


I ran across this old thread on Practical Machinist:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-taper-232446/


It gives me the impression that I should be able to turn a fixture for
measuring tool height "good enough" even at my modest skill level on
the lathe.



Well, I made a fixture to hold the tool holders to measure.* Now I need
to make up a physical tool zero reference tool.

I turned a center in the three jaw.* Then I mounted a tool holder
between centers.* An indicator mounted in a lathe tool holder made it
pretty much dead easy to measure rise over run with the saddle.* I did a
little math, looked at the protractor on the compound, and set it by eye.

I had to check it three times.* The compound isn't all that smooth.* I
probably should take it apart, stone it, and then put it back together a
little tighter than it is. I didn't have to check it three times because
it was off.* I had to check it three times because it was dead on first
try.* The needle jumped a bit due to the import quality of the compound,
but the average from end to end was nearly perfect. I was using a half
though indicator.* It was bouncing less than two lines, and settled in
the middle when ever I stopped moving.

Turning the fixture itself was planned to do all important cuts in the
first setup.* Cut the taper and the reference surface on the bottom.
Everything else was unimportant.* I used a piece of stock that already
had a small hole in it big enough for the bottom of the tool taper and
the pull stud.* I face it off, turned the taper with the compound, and
then made a clearance cut below the planned bottom/base of the fixture.

I had it mounted pretty close to the chuck.* A regular left hand tool
wouldn't fit in the space I had available so I used a carbide insert
parting tool.* I opened up the clearance cut and angled the parting tool
slightly away from the chuck.* It has side side clearance on the insert,
but I wanted to make sure I could use it to make a nice clean draw cut
out of the slot to square up a ring on the bottom of the fixture.* After
I was happy I parted it off and turned it around in the chuck.

With the work piece mounted bottom out I turned a recess in the bottom
leaving just a narrow ring around the outside for it to rest on.

The tool holders set down in the fixture on their taper and don't wobble
even a little. If I press them in hard there is just the tiniest amount
of stick when I pull them out.* They feel solid in the hole.* I don't
know if the taper is a match, but as long as its perpendicular to the
bottom I think it will be good enough.

I did everything I know how to do to make the fixture.* Tomorrow I'll
test it on the surface plate with real tools in the taper.* Then I'll
make some cuts with them and see what happens.

I'm not going to blue it and check it.* I don't care if its a perfect
taper.* I just care that the tools seat to a consistent depth and pretty
close to perpendicular with the base.




I wasn't going to test it for fit up since that's not really what its
for, but I couldn't help myself. I wiped the taper of my new "tool
zero" with write erase marker, and dropped it into the fixture. I held
it in firmly and gave it a spin. About 90% of the marker was wiped off.

I love it when that happens.
Eric
  #17   Report Post  
Old November 13th 19, 11:05 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,399
Default How Consistent Is The Ring on Taper Tooling

On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:22:05 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/7/2019 2:55 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

On 11/7/2019 2:01 PM, wrote:
Greetings Bob,
There is some variation in the flange location of regular CAT
spindles. But the tool doesn't really draw very far up into the taper
when clamped. Not enough to matter. In order to do so the socket would
need to expand and/or the tool shank would need to shrink quite a bit
and this doesn't happen.* So tool setters just use a socket ground to
the tool taper and the tool is set* into this socket. This socket is
either set on a tool setting fixture, or is mounted in a tool setting
fixture. And you can get a socket to set on a reference surface like a
surface plate. So you can do exactly this. I wouldn't be surprised if
you can buy one of these sockets from some outfit like MSC. If you
can't then just turn one.
Eric



So from reading that I can't (as I suspected) use the ring as a
reference.* It also seems that if I want to measure off machine with a
fixture, I'll need to also use a physical tool zero mounted in a tool
holder as well.* Maybe something like a gage pin in a collet chuck tool
holder.

The more I think about it though swapping tools between machines while
possible might be confusing and lead to crashes.* I'd be better off to
go ahead and just duplicate tools.* Probably need another dozen tool
holders eventually to cover the range of commonly used tools.

So you think just setting the tool in a socket fixture will be
repeatable enough it just won't matter?* I'm not a whizz on the lathe,
but I can probably make something that will work.




On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:35:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 11/7/2019 8:09 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
How consistent is the ring on taper tooling?

I recently changed out the spindle on one of my small high speed
machines to an ISO20 quick change spindle.* I'm trying to determine

the
easiest way to measure tool length off the machine.* As near as I can
tell the only purpose of the ring on ISO20 is to hang the tool

holder in
a tool changer.* To do that it really doesn't have to be all that
consistent.Well not as consistent as tool length measurement needs to
be.* Do I have to use an actual tool zero, and machine or buy a taper
socket to set the tools in on the surface plate?

I'm not using a tool changer.* Just doing quick changes and wanting to
use the tool table to reduce time doing touch offs.* Just do it

once at
the beginning of the job.

So far I really like the ISO20 spindle.* Its already saving me a

lot of
time over the ER spindle, and I have a second one ready to go in a
second machine when I have a spare afternoon to do it.


Lets try wording this a little differently:

One of my machines uses a tool holder with a flange that actually is
pulled up against the spindle face as it is locked in the spindle. This
makes it dead easy to measure tool lengths off the machine with a

height
gage. I can measure on the machine with an electronic height setter or
measure on the surface plate with a height gage and as long as
everything is cool they measure within a couple tenths. Good enough for
the work I do, and far better than the machine itself is capable of.

On another machine I never set the tool lengths because they vary

beyond
the Z travel, and its just faster and easier to crank the table down

and
then crank it up until the tool zeros my 2" height setter. The machine
is always machine (home) set with Z-zero at +2" work offset. Atleast in
the G54 offset. I may use other values when using additional work
offsets. Its not as fast as a tool table with a bed mill, but its fast
enough.

My main work horses have 24K spindles with until recently ER spindle
noses. I had to use the height setter after every tool change.

Sometimes
quite creatively. Recently I changed one out to an ISO20 spindle. Just
being able to push pull the 5 port air valve to swap tools saves me a
lot of time already, but I want to start setting up the tool table and
using M6 G43 to apply the tool height offset just like I do on the
machine in paragraph one.

However I have a problem. I am having a hard time wrapping my mind
around how to measure the tool length off the machine. I am

wondering if
its even practical. An ISO 20 does have a flange, but as near as I can
tell its only purpose is to provide a way to hang the tool in a tool
changer. From what I understand the tool is only reference by how

firmly
it is pulled into the spindle taper. To me that says I can only measure
the tool length offset on the machine its being used on. Am I missing
something? I guess I could have a physical tool zero instead of using
the spindle face, and have an iso 20 ground "socket" I placed on the
surface plate to put tools in to measure. Seems to me that would result
in different measurements of the same tool just depending on how firmly
I set the tool holder in the "fixture" setting on the surface plate.

This becomes more interesting because I have a second machine I plan to
upgrade to the ISO20 quick change spindle. Already have it on hand.

Just
haven't had an afternoon to spare to make the change. If possible it
would be nice to use some of the same tools on both machines. If I

could
get reliable relative tool lengths off (not in the spindle) of the
machines I could just measure once, and plug the value into both
machines saving me time.

I am a one man shop who started out as a hobbyist, and now pretty much
run continuously as my primary business. Taking time now to figure out
how to save time later is a cumulative gain. Five minutes setting tool
lengths might save more time over a year then shaving 20 minutes per
part off a 50 piece order.

I sincerely would like some help, guidance, or confirmation.





I'm having a hard time finding a measuring fixture for any 20 taper.
The smallest I can find is for 30 taper tool holders. It looks like
making one really is my only option.


Im sure someone in the past has offered them..but Im not aware of any
tool setting fixtures for 20 taper tooling. Ive never seen one.
So yeah, your probable best option is to simply make one. Ive got em
in NMTB 30 and 40 for my machines..I use em for tightening tooling
mostly.

Gunner
__

"Poor widdle Wudy...mentally ill, lies constantly, doesnt know who he is, or even what gender "he" is.

No more pathetic creature has ever walked the earth. But...he is locked into a mental hospital for the safety of the public.

Which is a very good thing."

Asun rauhassa, valmistaudun sotaan.



Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brown & Sharpe No 1 Taper Arbors Tooling B&S Wild_Bill Metalworking 1 December 29th 11 06:48 PM
Is Home Depot shafting shoppers? "Home Depot is a consistent abuser of its customers' time." Stephen Blackpool Home Repair 65 March 17th 07 01:53 PM
Making consistent spaced holes on Drill Press [email protected] Woodworking 13 March 8th 07 12:29 AM
Is this Consistent with BAd Dsihwasher Water Inlet Valve? despondent Home Repair 5 March 7th 06 08:35 PM
FS: 45 taper cnc tooling lot on ebay PrecisionMachinisT Metalworking 2 August 23rd 04 03:24 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2021 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"

 

Copyright © 2017