Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old December 11th 18, 01:14 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

"bob prohaska" wrote in message
news
Jim Wilkins wrote:


I don't have any machine tools except a lathe, so cutting a pair of
accurate wrench flats will be a "file and fit" proposition.


You can mill on a lathe, as long as the cutter in the chuck only
pushes the work on the carriage downward.




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Old December 11th 18, 01:27 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 2:52:00 PM UTC-8, bob prohaska wrote:

I suspect a lot of these valves were used in the '50s and '60s and
quite a few of them are still in service. If I knew what they're called
it's likely I could find a wrench, or at least what the wrench looks
like.

I don't have any machine tools except a lathe, so cutting a pair of
accurate wrench flats will be a "file and fit" proposition.


Yeah, that's do-able; just turn a thick disk, mark center and scribe lines
at 3/8 inch either side; hacksaw through half or less of the thickness
near those lines, and grind out the middle.

Then fine-tune with a file until it fits. Extra credit, weld a pipe onto the
disk and make a T-element on the other end of the pipe for a handle.

Actually, welding a couple of bars onto the endface of a pipe wouldn't be too bad:
clamp a right-thickness chunk between 'em to keep parallel.
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Old December 11th 18, 04:37 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 20:40:21 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
wrote:

I'd like to service a shower valve in a 1957 house with original plumbing.

The bonnet nut uses a round boss 7/8" in diameter with two flats milled
in it about 3/4" apart. It'd be a cinch if the valve stuck out of the wall,
any open-end would fit. Unfortunately it's recessed about an inch behind the
tile, so a socket is reuquired.

All the wrenches I can find fit hex nuts, does anybody know the correct name
for the required tool? From time to time "nuts" like this have crossed my
path, but I've never encountered one used in a position that requires a
socket to grab it.

At this point I don't even know what to look for. Correct terminology would
help a great deal.

Thanks for reading, and any guidance.


That's the problem with posting a question about unseen hardware here.
Like calling the body shop and asking "How much to fix my fender?" LOL
Sounds like what I call Double D, but I've never seen one on plumbing,
only on electronics and front wheel spindle washers.

The worst part about plumbing is that the guy who installs this crap
never has to disassemble it 10-50 years later. If only they'd put
anti-sieze on it in the first place...

Will calipers fit down in there to get good measurements to mill one
up? Find the Old Guy at the ACE near you and ask him, or an ancient
plumber.

--
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined
and that we can do nothing to change it look before they cross
the road." --Steven Hawking
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Old December 11th 18, 05:44 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 2:52:00 PM UTC-8, bob prohaska wrote:

I suspect a lot of these valves were used in the '50s and '60s and
quite a few of them are still in service. If I knew what they're called
it's likely I could find a wrench, or at least what the wrench looks
like.

I don't have any machine tools except a lathe, so cutting a pair of
accurate wrench flats will be a "file and fit" proposition.


Yeah, that's do-able; just turn a thick disk, mark center and scribe lines
at 3/8 inch either side; hacksaw through half or less of the thickness
near those lines, and grind out the middle.

Then fine-tune with a file until it fits. Extra credit, weld a pipe onto the
disk and make a T-element on the other end of the pipe for a handle.

Actually, welding a couple of bars onto the endface of a pipe wouldn't be too bad:
clamp a right-thickness chunk between 'em to keep parallel.


The idea of welding wrench jaws to a handle is a good one that I
didn't think of. I do have a welder, trying to make a wrench would
be an instructive exercise in any event.

In the ( probaby vain ) hope that somebody will recognize the valve's
maker or the needed wrench type a few photos have been put at
http://www.zefox.net/~bp/shower_valve/
For scale, the long threaded part is 5/8" diameter, the flats are about
3/4" apart and the OD of the boss is 7/8".

If the manufacturer is known it'd maybe let me anticipate what sort
of seals are required before I take it apart.

Thanks very much!

bob prohaska

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Old December 11th 18, 06:01 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 20:40:21 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
wrote:

I'd like to service a shower valve in a 1957 house with original plumbing.

The bonnet nut uses a round boss 7/8" in diameter with two flats milled
in it about 3/4" apart. It'd be a cinch if the valve stuck out of the wall,
any open-end would fit. Unfortunately it's recessed about an inch behind the
tile, so a socket is reuquired.

All the wrenches I can find fit hex nuts, does anybody know the correct name
for the required tool? From time to time "nuts" like this have crossed my
path, but I've never encountered one used in a position that requires a
socket to grab it.

At this point I don't even know what to look for. Correct terminology would
help a great deal.

Thanks for reading, and any guidance.


That's the problem with posting a question about unseen hardware here.
Like calling the body shop and asking "How much to fix my fender?" LOL
Sounds like what I call Double D, but I've never seen one on plumbing,
only on electronics and front wheel spindle washers.

Double-D looks right in the photos, but the few examples I can find
on-line are all much too small. Still, it's a start, I've never seen
the term before.

The worst part about plumbing is that the guy who installs this crap
never has to disassemble it 10-50 years later. If only they'd put
anti-sieze on it in the first place...

Yes, that's one of the larger questions. I've no idea how badly stuck
the threads are.

Will calipers fit down in there to get good measurements to mill one
up? Find the Old Guy at the ACE near you and ask him, or an ancient
plumber.

The one ancient plumber I talked to said "You've got a problem".
All the rest seem to be dead or retired.

My calipers won't fit, but I can get them close enough to have a pretty
good idea of the size. The flats are just under .750 across, the boss
OD is just under .875" across, the long thread (holds the decorative
cover on) is close to .625" in the photos at

http://www.zefox.net/~bp/shower_valve/

Thanks very much for the double-d tip!

bob prohaska




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Old December 11th 18, 12:13 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

"bob prohaska" wrote in message
news

http://www.zefox.net/~bp/shower_valve/

Thanks very much for the double-d tip!

bob prohaska


It may have been assembled with an open-end wrench before it was
placed in the wall. I'd look into modifying a cheap 3/4" or 19mm deep
impact socket, perhaps anneal it, drill / bore out the ID, mill
(grind) clearance notches across the end and turn it with Vise-Grips.
-jsw


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Old December 11th 18, 01:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

You are not ever going to find a ready-made wrench for that. The
welded-up suggestion is a good one. Another approach might be to use a
die grinder to cut the other 4 flats on your nut & turn it into a hex.
The nut being brass would make it more easily done.

However, fitting a wrench to that nut is likely to be only the first
problem in fixing that shower. After 60 years, that nut is not going to
come out gracefully and there's a good probability that something will
break in the process.

The right way to fix the valve is to replace it. I know, it's in a
tiled wall, but they make large plates to cover the hole. Google/images
"remodeling shower cover plate". Ask This Old House did a segment on
it:
https://www.thisoldhouse.com/how-to/...d-shower-valve

You might be able to fix the old valve, but you _know_ that it won't be
the end of it. Do it right, replace it, and be done with it.
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Old December 11th 18, 01:49 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
news
You are not ever going to find a ready-made wrench for that. The
welded-up suggestion is a good one. Another approach might be to
use a die grinder to cut the other 4 flats on your nut & turn it
into a hex. The nut being brass would make it more easily done.

However, fitting a wrench to that nut is likely to be only the first
problem in fixing that shower. After 60 years, that nut is not
going to come out gracefully and there's a good probability that
something will break in the process.

The right way to fix the valve is to replace it. I know, it's in a
tiled wall, but they make large plates to cover the hole.
Google/images "remodeling shower cover plate". Ask This Old House
did a segment on it:
https://www.thisoldhouse.com/how-to/...d-shower-valve

You might be able to fix the old valve, but you _know_ that it won't
be the end of it. Do it right, replace it, and be done with it.


I've partly disassembled a tree of old brass pipe from a contractor
neighbor's scrap pile. Some of the pipe-doped fittings unscrew fairly
easily, others require enough vise clamping pressure to crush the
pipe.

The pipe can be machined into 1/2" ID pivot pin bushings that
withstand more force than Oilite.

-jsw


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Old December 11th 18, 02:52 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 05:44:41 -0000 (UTC)
bob prohaska wrote:

snip
In the ( probaby vain ) hope that somebody will recognize the valve's
maker or the needed wrench type a few photos have been put at
http://www.zefox.net/~bp/shower_valve/
For scale, the long threaded part is 5/8" diameter, the flats are about
3/4" apart and the OD of the boss is 7/8".


I've got the same or very similar bathtub faucet. Mine wasn't mounted
so deep and you can fit a spanner wrench on the bonnets. Couldn't get
the seats out though. Didn't want to break something trying any harder
to turn them. Those two flats on the bonnet for a wrench are pretty
common or at least it used to be. For instance Streamway as shown he

https://www.danco.com/product/7j-2hc...amway-faucets/

is pretty close. You can download the whole Danco catalog here (huge!
180MB):

https://s16962.pcdn.co/wp-content/up...thAddendum.pdf

it has good pictures for a lot of old stems in it with manufacturer
names. Streamway has a few good examples on actual page 38 of pdf. I
couldn't find any special sockets to fit that shape though. Also a
nice schematic on page 5 detailing all the proper part names...

On my bathtub I just replaced the washer, packer, escutcheon nipple and
escutcheon. Used a 6-flute countersink to touch up the seats. Maybe a
conical grind stone too. Probably by hand or really slow in VSR drill.
Been over 10 years now, don't remember the details for sure...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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Old December 11th 18, 04:42 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,017
Default Socket for old shower valve bonnet needed

On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 20:40:21 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
wrote:

I'd like to service a shower valve in a 1957 house with original plumbing.

The bonnet nut uses a round boss 7/8" in diameter with two flats milled
in it about 3/4" apart. It'd be a cinch if the valve stuck out of the wall,
any open-end would fit. Unfortunately it's recessed about an inch behind the
tile, so a socket is reuquired.

All the wrenches I can find fit hex nuts, does anybody know the correct name
for the required tool? From time to time "nuts" like this have crossed my
path, but I've never encountered one used in a position that requires a
socket to grab it.

At this point I don't even know what to look for. Correct terminology would
help a great deal.

Thanks for reading, and any guidance.

bob prohaska


I would tell you to call a plumbing shop but you probably already did.
There is a shop I go to rarely for old stuff and they would at least
know if the tool is available. There is another thing you should do
along with this repair and that is install valves (AKA stops) in the
plumbing before the shower and tub valves. This way you only need to
shut off water to those valves and not the whole house. If you take
that valve apart and everything goes to hell with the valve you will
be happy that you installed the extra stops. Of course this assumes
you can get access easily to the plumbing under the floor.
Eric


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