I filled out the less common sizes in my tap and die collection from
the bin in a second-hand store, without regard to the OD of the dies,
since I'd probably only turn them by hand to repair existing threads.
Recently I got out the 1/4-18 NPT die to clean up rusty threads and
noticed that it was missing the adjusting screw that holds the die
open against the pressure of the diestock clamp screws.

The die is 1.5" round and the adjusting screw enters radially into the
slot, not perpendicular to the slot on a chord like normal split dies.
I made a 32TPI screw which fit when turned to 0.295" OD, not much more
than 0.281" or 9/32" which is a standardized thread:
https://www.amazon.com/Special-Threa.../dp/B0141JFGRM
The die manufacturer is Card, USA.

The female adjusting screw thread in the die is noticeably tapered.
Since this is a pipe thread die the exact cutting size doesn't matter
and the die OD is under 1.500" with the home made screw fully
inserted, but I have other similar dies for straight threads and
adjusting then to cut the right size without a gauge would be tedious
if my custom setscrew is out of spec..

Does anyone have this type of die to measure or know whether or not
9/32-32 is the proper thread size for this adjusting screw?

Thanks
-jsw

On 23/07/18 15:34, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I filled out the less common sizes in my tap and die collection from
the bin in a second-hand store, without regard to the OD of the dies,
since I'd probably only turn them by hand to repair existing threads.
Recently I got out the 1/4-18 NPT die to clean up rusty threads and
noticed that it was missing the adjusting screw that holds the die
open against the pressure of the diestock clamp screws.

The die is 1.5" round and the adjusting screw enters radially into the
slot, not perpendicular to the slot on a chord like normal split dies.
I made a 32TPI screw which fit when turned to 0.295" OD, not much more
than 0.281" or 9/32" which is a standardized thread:
https://www.amazon.com/Special-Threa.../dp/B0141JFGRM
The die manufacturer is Card, USA.

The female adjusting screw thread in the die is noticeably tapered.
Since this is a pipe thread die the exact cutting size doesn't matter
and the die OD is under 1.500" with the home made screw fully
inserted, but I have other similar dies for straight threads and
adjusting then to cut the right size without a gauge would be tedious
if my custom setscrew is out of spec..

Does anyone have this type of die to measure or know whether or not
9/32-32 is the proper thread size for this adjusting screw?

Thanks
-jsw


I can't help with your specific query as none of my pipe threading dies
are split they just have a notch or notches to prevent rotation and are
of a thickness to suit to intended thread size length. I presume they
are all accurately made so that when run onto the pipe to cut the thread
when the die is flush at the end of the pipe the gauge size of the
thread is correct hence no need for adjustment.Â* All are Rotostock pipe
threading dies to suit the Rotostock machine.

"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 23/07/18 15:34, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I filled out the less common sizes in my tap and die collection
from
the bin in a second-hand store, without regard to the OD of the
dies,
since I'd probably only turn them by hand to repair existing
threads.
Recently I got out the 1/4-18 NPT die to clean up rusty threads and
noticed that it was missing the adjusting screw that holds the die
open against the pressure of the diestock clamp screws.

The die is 1.5" round and the adjusting screw enters radially into
the
slot, not perpendicular to the slot on a chord like normal split
dies.
I made a 32TPI screw which fit when turned to 0.295" OD, not much
more
than 0.281" or 9/32" which is a standardized thread:

https://www.amazon.com/Special-Threa.../dp/B0141JFGRM
The die manufacturer is Card, USA.

The female adjusting screw thread in the die is noticeably tapered.
Since this is a pipe thread die the exact cutting size doesn't
matter
and the die OD is under 1.500" with the home made screw fully
inserted, but I have other similar dies for straight threads and
adjusting then to cut the right size without a gauge would be
tedious
if my custom setscrew is out of spec..

Does anyone have this type of die to measure or know whether or not
9/32-32 is the proper thread size for this adjusting screw?

Thanks
-jsw


I can't help with your specific query as none of my pipe threading
dies are split they just have a notch or notches to prevent rotation
and are of a thickness to suit to intended thread size length. I
presume they are all accurately made so that when run onto the pipe
to cut the thread when the die is flush at the end of the pipe the
gauge size of the thread is correct hence no need for adjustment.
All are Rotostock pipe threading dies to suit the Rotostock machine.


I thought dies were split so they could be tightened back to size
after grinding inside the holes to resharpening them. I resharpen old
taps by running a cylindrical stone in the flutes.

Anyway, rather than leaving the lathe set up I made some 9/32"-32
setscrews which seem to fit well. The Schrader valve and 5C collet
show that thread diameters can't be assumed.

On 23/07/18 19:41, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 23/07/18 15:34, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I filled out the less common sizes in my tap and die collection
from
the bin in a second-hand store, without regard to the OD of the
dies,
since I'd probably only turn them by hand to repair existing
threads.
Recently I got out the 1/4-18 NPT die to clean up rusty threads and
noticed that it was missing the adjusting screw that holds the die
open against the pressure of the diestock clamp screws.

The die is 1.5" round and the adjusting screw enters radially into
the
slot, not perpendicular to the slot on a chord like normal split
dies.
I made a 32TPI screw which fit when turned to 0.295" OD, not much
more
than 0.281" or 9/32" which is a standardized thread:

https://www.amazon.com/Special-Threa.../dp/B0141JFGRM
The die manufacturer is Card, USA.

The female adjusting screw thread in the die is noticeably tapered.
Since this is a pipe thread die the exact cutting size doesn't
matter
and the die OD is under 1.500" with the home made screw fully
inserted, but I have other similar dies for straight threads and
adjusting then to cut the right size without a gauge would be
tedious
if my custom setscrew is out of spec..

Does anyone have this type of die to measure or know whether or not
9/32-32 is the proper thread size for this adjusting screw?

Thanks
-jsw


I can't help with your specific query as none of my pipe threading
dies are split they just have a notch or notches to prevent rotation
and are of a thickness to suit to intended thread size length. I
presume they are all accurately made so that when run onto the pipe
to cut the thread when the die is flush at the end of the pipe the
gauge size of the thread is correct hence no need for adjustment.
All are Rotostock pipe threading dies to suit the Rotostock machine.

I thought dies were split so they could be tightened back to size
after grinding inside the holes to resharpening them. I resharpen old
taps by running a cylindrical stone in the flutes.

Anyway, rather than leaving the lathe set up I made some 9/32"-32
setscrews which seem to fit well. The Schrader valve and 5C collet
show that thread diameters can't be assumed.


Quite possibly although the pipe thread dies I have would require quite
a bit of dressing back to significantly effect the pipe thread size cut.
IIRC both NPT and BSP pipe threads are 1:16 taper on diameter so I think
would be fairly tolerant to dressing and still give usable thread
engagement but I've never had to dress a die yet.

I do use the adjustment feature with split dies with straight threads
and one application for threading M10 x 1 on stainless tubing I made a
double ended die holder with one die set for a roughing cut and the
other die set for a finish cut, works very well. The die holder locates
on a mandrel which fits in the tubing for alignment. That and using
decent high pressure lubricant when cutting threads I haven't had to
replace a die yet.

Most of my taps are small enough that if blunted for some reason it's
easier to replace but I'll bear in mind the sharpening for some larger
ones that are losing their edge from cutting threads in some poor
quality steel.

"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 23/07/18 19:41, Jim Wilkins wrote:

I thought dies were split so they could be tightened back to size
after grinding inside the holes to resharpening them. I resharpen
old
taps by running a cylindrical stone in the flutes.


Most of my taps are small enough that if blunted for some reason
it's easier to replace but I'll bear in mind the sharpening for some
larger ones that are losing their edge from cutting threads in some
poor quality steel.

The small taps I used for electronics are new and high quality. The
1/2" ones that I bought for repairs and home projects like my sawmill
came from a second hand store and were often dull from production use.
The largest is 2" NPT for which I paid less than 10% of its retail
price. I have a surface grinder with a cylindrical/tapered tool
grinding attachment and make sure the used taps I buy have center
holes in the ends.

On 24/07/18 02:39, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 23/07/18 19:41, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I thought dies were split so they could be tightened back to size
after grinding inside the holes to resharpening them. I resharpen
old
taps by running a cylindrical stone in the flutes.
Most of my taps are small enough that if blunted for some reason
it's easier to replace but I'll bear in mind the sharpening for some
larger ones that are losing their edge from cutting threads in some
poor quality steel.
The small taps I used for electronics are new and high quality. The
1/2" ones that I bought for repairs and home projects like my sawmill
came from a second hand store and were often dull from production use.
The largest is 2" NPT for which I paid less than 10% of its retail
price. I have a surface grinder with a cylindrical/tapered tool
grinding attachment and make sure the used taps I buy have center
holes in the ends.


The tool grinding attachment sounds like another thing I'll have to make
when I get my surface grinder up and running soon, any images of yours
or similar available?

"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 24/07/18 02:39, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 23/07/18 19:41, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I thought dies were split so they could be tightened back to size
after grinding inside the holes to resharpening them. I resharpen
old
taps by running a cylindrical stone in the flutes.
Most of my taps are small enough that if blunted for some reason
it's easier to replace but I'll bear in mind the sharpening for
some
larger ones that are losing their edge from cutting threads in
some
poor quality steel.
The small taps I used for electronics are new and high quality. The
1/2" ones that I bought for repairs and home projects like my
sawmill
came from a second hand store and were often dull from production
use.
The largest is 2" NPT for which I paid less than 10% of its retail
price. I have a surface grinder with a cylindrical/tapered tool
grinding attachment and make sure the used taps I buy have center
holes in the ends.


The tool grinding attachment sounds like another thing I'll have to
make when I get my surface grinder up and running soon, any images
of yours or similar available?


This shows the machine but I didn't find a photo of the center
grinding attachment
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1691.pdf

which looks like bench centers mounted on a swivel base.
http://www.penntoolco.com/spi-heavy-duty-bench-centers/

Notice that Chadwick copied the design of the head for the Quorn about
30 years later, except for the separate elevating screw.

This is the type of sharpening attachment I use the most:
http://www.shars.com/end-mill-grinding-fixture
It sharpens only the ends so when roughing a slot I minimize side wear
with plunge cuts.
-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news

Notice that Chadwick copied the design of the head for the Quorn
about 30 years later, except for the separate elevating screw.


Chaddock. The work holder was copied from the Deckel.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/deckel/page4.html

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:46:23 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"David Billington" wrote in message
news
On 24/07/18 02:39, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
news On 23/07/18 19:41, Jim Wilkins wrote:
I thought dies were split so they could be tightened back to size
after grinding inside the holes to resharpening them. I resharpen
old
taps by running a cylindrical stone in the flutes.
Most of my taps are small enough that if blunted for some reason
it's easier to replace but I'll bear in mind the sharpening for
some
larger ones that are losing their edge from cutting threads in
some
poor quality steel.
The small taps I used for electronics are new and high quality. The
1/2" ones that I bought for repairs and home projects like my
sawmill
came from a second hand store and were often dull from production
use.
The largest is 2" NPT for which I paid less than 10% of its retail
price. I have a surface grinder with a cylindrical/tapered tool
grinding attachment and make sure the used taps I buy have center
holes in the ends.


The tool grinding attachment sounds like another thing I'll have to
make when I get my surface grinder up and running soon, any images
of yours or similar available?


This shows the machine but I didn't find a photo of the center
grinding attachment
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1691.pdf

Why are both guys on the Specs page cutting diagonals? They both have
a hand on the X and Y axis handles. (Marketing never learns.)

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:46:23 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


This shows the machine but I didn't find a photo of the center
grinding attachment
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1691.pdf

Why are both guys on the Specs page cutting diagonals? They both
have
a hand on the X and Y axis handles. (Marketing never learns.)

I do that too. The design gives up some rigidity for versatility, like
a Shopsmith, and tends to develop a visible vibration pattern which
slight zig-zag motion breaks up. The manual suggests that 25
microinches is the best finish you can expect.

I use it as a mill for hardened steel and to grind lathe bits to
precise angles for threading and gear cutting. It's no match for the
Brown & Sharpe suface grinder I learned on, but I couldn't have
carried one of them into my basement.

Like the rest of my 50's/60's machinery it's better for a small shop
making experimental and prototype one-offs than a high production
environment. I'm far too inefficient to be a job shop. I tend to
redesign the part as I make it.
-jsw

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:35:24 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:46:23 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


This shows the machine but I didn't find a photo of the center
grinding attachment
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1691.pdf

Why are both guys on the Specs page cutting diagonals? They both
have
a hand on the X and Y axis handles. (Marketing never learns.)

I do that too. The design gives up some rigidity for versatility, like
a Shopsmith, and tends to develop a visible vibration pattern which
slight zig-zag motion breaks up. The manual suggests that 25
microinches is the best finish you can expect.

So you rest the other hand on the handle to stabilize it? Aren't the
gibs lockable?


I use it as a mill for hardened steel and to grind lathe bits to
precise angles for threading and gear cutting. It's no match for the
Brown & Sharpe suface grinder I learned on, but I couldn't have
carried one of them into my basement.

Like the rest of my 50's/60's machinery it's better for a small shop
making experimental and prototype one-offs than a high production
environment. I'm far too inefficient to be a job shop. I tend to
redesign the part as I make it.

That's often a good thing when you work for yourself, but not for
others.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:35:24 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:46:23 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


This shows the machine but I didn't find a photo of the center
grinding attachment
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1691.pdf

Why are both guys on the Specs page cutting diagonals? They both
have
a hand on the X and Y axis handles. (Marketing never learns.)

I do that too. The design gives up some rigidity for versatility,
like
a Shopsmith, and tends to develop a visible vibration pattern which
slight zig-zag motion breaks up. The manual suggests that 25
microinches is the best finish you can expect.

So you rest the other hand on the handle to stabilize it? Aren't the
gibs lockable?


The zig-zag consists of a slow continuous feed in or outward with the
left hand's leadscrew while moving the table back and forth with the
right hand's fast rack and pinion feed. It isn't the best way to grind
to a precise dimension but it breaks up the wheel's vibration
resonance and I normally just use the machine to grind below the dings
and rust pits on a block of sheared or flame-cut scrap steel and make
two sides parallel or all of them square enough to clamp before
milling it. The mill vise needs two flat and parallel sides to hold
work securely, the grinder needs only one to start and can grind the
others square or parallel.

The better way is to feed in almost the width of the grinding wheel
between passes, to equalize wear across it. I do that for a while
after dressing the wheel until some narrow workpiece job like
sharpening end mills wears it unevenly.

Like the rest of my 50's/60's machinery it's better for a small shop
making experimental and prototype one-offs than a high production
environment. I'm far too inefficient to be a job shop. I tend to
redesign the part as I make it.

That's often a good thing when you work for yourself, but
not for others.

Designing and prototyping the packaging was an extra service I could
offer to electrical engineers with minimal mechanical training or
experience. Packaging is very important for microwave circuits. That
largely means sealing your signals in and other signals out.

When I worked for others they had the proper shop. I've run CNC and
manual Bridgeports and 15" lathes etc and designed sheetmetal to be
fabricated on 10' vertical press brakes and Strippits. I just don't
have the space or need at home for larger machines.
-jsw

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:35:42 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:35:24 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:46:23 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


This shows the machine but I didn't find a photo of the center
grinding attachment
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1691.pdf

Why are both guys on the Specs page cutting diagonals? They both
have
a hand on the X and Y axis handles. (Marketing never learns.)

I do that too. The design gives up some rigidity for versatility,
like
a Shopsmith, and tends to develop a visible vibration pattern which
slight zig-zag motion breaks up. The manual suggests that 25
microinches is the best finish you can expect.

So you rest the other hand on the handle to stabilize it? Aren't the
gibs lockable?


The zig-zag consists of a slow continuous feed in or outward with the
left hand's leadscrew while moving the table back and forth with the
right hand's fast rack and pinion feed. It isn't the best way to grind
to a precise dimension but it breaks up the wheel's vibration
resonance and I normally just use the machine to grind below the dings
and rust pits on a block of sheared or flame-cut scrap steel and make
two sides parallel or all of them square enough to clamp before
milling it. The mill vise needs two flat and parallel sides to hold
work securely, the grinder needs only one to start and can grind the
others square or parallel.

Grok that. Thanks.


The better way is to feed in almost the width of the grinding wheel
between passes, to equalize wear across it. I do that for a while
after dressing the wheel until some narrow workpiece job like
sharpening end mills wears it unevenly.

Yes, I see the wisdom in that. Thanks for the Grinders 101. I've
obviously never used one.


Like the rest of my 50's/60's machinery it's better for a small shop
making experimental and prototype one-offs than a high production
environment. I'm far too inefficient to be a job shop. I tend to
redesign the part as I make it.

That's often a good thing when you work for yourself, but
not for others.

Designing and prototyping the packaging was an extra service I could
offer to electrical engineers with minimal mechanical training or
experience. Packaging is very important for microwave circuits. That
largely means sealing your signals in and other signals out.

I'll bet that paid well, in addition to being interesting and fun for
you.


When I worked for others they had the proper shop. I've run CNC and
manual Bridgeports and 15" lathes etc and designed sheetmetal to be
fabricated on 10' vertical press brakes and Strippits. I just don't
have the space or need at home for larger machines.

Understandable.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:35:42 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Yes, I see the wisdom in that. Thanks for the Grinders 101. I've
obviously never used one.

When I started in industry I quickly found that I couldn't reasonably
design a part to perform a task without knowing something of how to
make it, though not every newly minted engineer felt that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_engineering
"Traditional engineering is also known as over the wall engineering as
each stage blindly throws the development to the next stage over the
wall."

So I learned to operate some machine tools and observed how others
worked, in terms of the geometries they could or couldn't create and
the accuracy they could reasonably deliver. I didn't use the more
dangerous equipment until taking adult-ed night classes in machining
and welding at local high schools.

In small non-union startups that built custom equipment on order it
was easy to learn machine tool operation without threatening the
operators that I wanted their job since I clearly had a good job of my
own, building and testing the electronics. I tended to become the
liaison between engineering and production and had to learn new
operations myself so I could explain them, or convince the designer to
make a change..

Eventually when I bought a house I knew enough to assemble a small
machine shop that was adequate to make the devices I'd thought up.
I've never created anything patentable because I ultimately reduce
problems to very simple solutions, like using a sink spray as a
water-saving shower head.
-jsw

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 08:47:03 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
I've never created anything patentable because I ultimately reduce
problems to very simple solutions, like using a sink spray as a
water-saving shower head.

Poking around, studying old patents is very enlightening and humbling.
In the mechanical area there's not a lot someone hasn't already come up
with. They can be deceiving too. I have a pretty much standard looking
laminated padlock with a pin tumbler I found somewhere. It has a
relatively new patent number on it. Seemed kind of odd to me, nothing
special about the lock I haven't seen a zillion times before. So I
looked up the patent. It was for the locking pawls and a novel way of
manufacture. Yet they are still shimable and the core can be picked
with a just a stern look. Looks good for sales though. "Hey look, this
one must be better, it has a patent." ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 08:47:03 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
I've never created anything patentable because I ultimately reduce
problems to very simple solutions, like using a sink spray as a
water-saving shower head.

Poking around, studying old patents is very enlightening and
humbling.
In the mechanical area there's not a lot someone hasn't already come
up
with. They can be deceiving too. I have a pretty much standard
looking
laminated padlock with a pin tumbler I found somewhere. It has a
relatively new patent number on it. Seemed kind of odd to me,
nothing
special about the lock I haven't seen a zillion times before. So I
looked up the patent. It was for the locking pawls and a novel way
of
manufacture. Yet they are still shimable and the core can be picked
with a just a stern look. Looks good for sales though. "Hey look,
this
one must be better, it has a patent." ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI


I have an old Jacobs drill chuck, normal-looking except that the
sleeve is diamond knurled, with the patent date "SEP 16 1902" stamped
on it.

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 14:07:01 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
I have an old Jacobs drill chuck, normal-looking except that the
sleeve is diamond knurled, with the patent date "SEP 16 1902" stamped
on it.

That's an older one for sure. From what I can suss out it looks to be
the beginnings of what we consider to be a standard keyed chuck
nowadays.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US709014A/en

It looks like that patent was still being cited in the early 2000's...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 08:47:03 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:35:42 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Yes, I see the wisdom in that. Thanks for the Grinders 101. I've
obviously never used one.

When I started in industry I quickly found that I couldn't reasonably
design a part to perform a task without knowing something of how to
make it, though not every newly minted engineer felt that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_engineering
"Traditional engineering is also known as over the wall engineering as
each stage blindly throws the development to the next stage over the
wall."

I love that def. Isn't the vast majority of engineers that way?
Most teachers are instructors rather than educators in the same light.


So I learned to operate some machine tools and observed how others
worked, in terms of the geometries they could or couldn't create and
the accuracy they could reasonably deliver. I didn't use the more
dangerous equipment until taking adult-ed night classes in machining
and welding at local high schools.

I think innate curiosity drives much of that, of people wanting to do
more than they are, and wanting to find out how things work.


In small non-union startups that built custom equipment on order it
was easy to learn machine tool operation without threatening the
operators that I wanted their job since I clearly had a good job of my
own, building and testing the electronics. I tended to become the
liaison between engineering and production and had to learn new
operations myself so I could explain them, or convince the designer to
make a change..

Cool. You were lucky to have worked at small non-union businesses, or
your endeavor would have been quashed instantly. I'm sure that you
had good relationships there, and then got plenty of good referrals in
between those jobs.


Eventually when I bought a house I knew enough to assemble a small
machine shop that was adequate to make the devices I'd thought up.

Nice!


I've never created anything patentable because I ultimately reduce
problems to very simple solutions, like using a sink spray as a
water-saving shower head.

snort Whatever works, eh? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if someone
tried to patent that, too, though, nowadays. Biological and genetic
patents are really starting to bother me. I wonder how the Trump
administration will affect all that.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 08:47:03 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:35:42 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Yes, I see the wisdom in that. Thanks for the Grinders 101. I've
obviously never used one.

When I started in industry I quickly found that I couldn't
reasonably
design a part to perform a task without knowing something of how to
make it, though not every newly minted engineer felt that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_engineering
"Traditional engineering is also known as over the wall engineering
as
each stage blindly throws the development to the next stage over the
wall."

I love that def. Isn't the vast majority of engineers that way?

http://www.workplaceinsanity.com/201...ally-want.html

I've heard that specifically about the auto industry, but the
engineers I dealt with there were new hires brought in as vehicular
electronics mushroomed. That business is secretive and no one talked
shop. At Segway engineering was very hands-on and aware of production
concerns. Other places varied among the individuals.

Most teachers are instructors rather than educators in the same
light.

The teachers I had in various night schools were "night and day"
different from the ones in college, since they worked at a real job
for a living. In Mitre-subsidized night school I aced the Differential
Equations course I had barely passed in college, because he explained
it for people who use math as a tool rather than worship it as a gift
from Vishnu. In Analytical Geometry all the problems used 30, 45 or 60
degree triangles so the answers included the square roots of 2 or 3,
we just had to know where. We learned to do trig and logarithms in our
heads without a calculator. Problems at work such as decibel gain or
loss and phase shift modulation merely had different numbers in the
familiar places.
-jsw

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 21:42:16 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 08:47:03 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:35:42 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Yes, I see the wisdom in that. Thanks for the Grinders 101. I've
obviously never used one.

When I started in industry I quickly found that I couldn't
reasonably
design a part to perform a task without knowing something of how to
make it, though not every newly minted engineer felt that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_engineering
"Traditional engineering is also known as over the wall engineering
as
each stage blindly throws the development to the next stage over the
wall."

I love that def. Isn't the vast majority of engineers that way?

http://www.workplaceinsanity.com/201...ally-want.html

I've heard that specifically about the auto industry, but the
engineers I dealt with there were new hires brought in as vehicular
electronics mushroomed. That business is secretive and no one talked
shop. At Segway engineering was very hands-on and aware of production
concerns. Other places varied among the individuals.

Yeah, Segway was probably abruptly different from most settings for
engineers. My new neighbor was an engineer at Boeing in TX. A white
collar engineer/manager, which I found hard to wrap my head around.
I'm pretty sure he was a computer/paper/meeting engineer, a different
strip than most I've met.


Most teachers are instructors rather than educators in the same
light.

The teachers I had in various night schools were "night and day"
different from the ones in college, since they worked at a real job
for a living. In Mitre-subsidized night school I aced the Differential
Equations course I had barely passed in college, because he explained
it for people who use math as a tool rather than worship it as a gift
from Vishnu.

VBG.


In Analytical Geometry all the problems used 30, 45 or 60
degree triangles so the answers included the square roots of 2 or 3,
we just had to know where. We learned to do trig and logarithms in our
heads without a calculator. Problems at work such as decibel gain or
loss and phase shift modulation merely had different numbers in the
familiar places.

Cool.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

On 2018-08-01, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 08:47:03 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip

I've never created anything patentable because I ultimately reduce
problems to very simple solutions, like using a sink spray as a
water-saving shower head.

Poking around, studying old patents is very enlightening and humbling.
In the mechanical area there's not a lot someone hasn't already come up
with.

[ ... ]

Look for a four-volume book set of _Ingenious Mechanisms_ to see
lots of ways to do things. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 21:42:16 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
Yeah, Segway was probably abruptly different from most settings for
engineers.

Actually Segway was pretty typical for a small company begun and run
by engineers with an idea. I also helped develop a new color printer
concept of the former Centronics engineers and was a tech for new
product development at Unitrode.

https://www.amazon.com/Soul-New-Mach.../dp/0316491977
When it came out I was working on a very similar LSI-11 mini-computer
based Automated Test Equipment project with an equally well-organizd
group.We all read the book and saw nothing to change. The Ph.D in
charge was a brilliant, easy-going beard, ponytail, sandals, VW bus
type who worshipped Feynman.

Just as we completed it the economy tanked, orders for new capital
equipment vanished, and the company folded. R&D isn't a secure
long-term job.

My new neighbor was an engineer at Boeing in TX. A white
collar engineer/manager, which I found hard to wrap my head around.
I'm pretty sure he was a computer/paper/meeting engineer, a
different
strip than most I've met.


The pattern I've seen, known, read of or experienced in larger
companys was competent engineers being pushed into management to make
decisions about what (or not) to develop next, while the engineering
grunt work fell upon younger engineers or co-ops / interns who still
remembered how to calculate, and technicians like me who knew how to
build prototypes of testable, manufacturable working product.

I often began with a pencil scribbled schematic, parts list and verbal
description of the desired result. Once my completed schematic had
been approved they left me alone to build it however I chose. A
particularly hands-on engineer might model the dimensions of patch
antennas, RF transmission lines and matching stubs in the circuit
board material we had chosen.

A quirk I've noticed in more academic environments is what I call the
Artist Colony style of management, in which everyone has a supervisory
title and does their own thing independently, without formal
coordination. It's effective with a small group of cooperative people,
as long as the tasks can be divided without overlaps. Community
Theatre productions were like that too.

===
I've been cutting and bending 22 gauge galvanized on a 30" 3-in-1
sheet metal machine. It struggles with 22 and 24 would be easier.
-jsw

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2018-08-01, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 08:47:03 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip

I've never created anything patentable because I ultimately reduce
problems to very simple solutions, like using a sink spray as a
water-saving shower head.

Poking around, studying old patents is very enlightening and
humbling.
In the mechanical area there's not a lot someone hasn't already
come up
with.

[ ... ]

Look for a four-volume book set of _Ingenious Mechanisms_ to see
lots of ways to do things. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

The sort of problem I have difficulty with is for example how to
splice 4" x 8' steel channel for a 16' gantry hoist track without the
bolt holes weakening it or the heads or shanks interfering with the
trolley wheels. Welding would make it too long to store under cover.
Hand-fitting the bolt holes to minimize play is acceptable, tapered
shank bolts aren't.

I have a design and the materials for the intended use where it's
suspended from a roof beam at the center splice and tripods at both
ends. The version without center support is a paper exercise though I
might use a good solution.

C4 x 5.4 depth=4, width=1.584, web=0.184, area=1.59, Ixx=3.85,
Iyy=0.319
I get a safe(?) working stress of 12.5 ksi with a 500 Lb centered
load, or 1000 Lbs for the two 16' channels together.

-jsw

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 10:01:17 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 21:42:16 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
Yeah, Segway was probably abruptly different from most settings for
engineers.

Actually Segway was pretty typical for a small company begun and run
by engineers with an idea. I also helped develop a new color printer
concept of the former Centronics engineers and was a tech for new
product development at Unitrode.

Interesting. I wonder what percentage of companies are small (not the
SBA's number 500) and run by engineers with an idea. Entrepreneurship
is alive and well here, which is good.


https://www.amazon.com/Soul-New-Mach.../dp/0316491977
When it came out I was working on a very similar LSI-11 mini-computer
based Automated Test Equipment project with an equally well-organizd
group.We all read the book and saw nothing to change. The Ph.D in
charge was a brilliant, easy-going beard, ponytail, sandals, VW bus
type who worshipped Feynman.

Praise Dickey!


Just as we completed it the economy tanked, orders for new capital
equipment vanished, and the company folded. R&D isn't a secure
long-term job.

Ooh Noo!


My new neighbor was an engineer at Boeing in TX. A white
collar engineer/manager, which I found hard to wrap my head around.
I'm pretty sure he was a computer/paper/meeting engineer, a
different
strip than most I've met.

Lost the "e" off stripe there.


The pattern I've seen, known, read of or experienced in larger
companys was competent engineers being pushed into management to make
decisions about what (or not) to develop next, while the engineering
grunt work fell upon younger engineers or co-ops / interns who still
remembered how to calculate, and technicians like me who knew how to
build prototypes of testable, manufacturable working product.

Not what I expected, but I ran from corporate life after brief
exposure. Dilbert's life is real!


I often began with a pencil scribbled schematic, parts list and verbal
description of the desired result. Once my completed schematic had
been approved they left me alone to build it however I chose. A
particularly hands-on engineer might model the dimensions of patch
antennas, RF transmission lines and matching stubs in the circuit
board material we had chosen.

The sheer quantity of Good ****(tm) which first was sketched on
napkins and torn pieces of paper never fails to amaze me.


A quirk I've noticed in more academic environments is what I call the
Artist Colony style of management, in which everyone has a supervisory
title and does their own thing independently, without formal
coordination. It's effective with a small group of cooperative people,
as long as the tasks can be divided without overlaps. Community
Theatre productions were like that too.

And that works?


I've been cutting and bending 22 gauge galvanized on a 30" 3-in-1
sheet metal machine. It struggles with 22 and 24 would be easier.

Does the struggle leave you with a less-sharp bend, or what? What
width stock are you bending?

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 10:01:17 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

.....


I've been cutting and bending 22 gauge galvanized on a 30" 3-in-1
sheet metal machine. It struggles with 22 and 24 would be easier.

Does the struggle leave you with a less-sharp bend, or what? What
width stock are you bending?

3/4" angle 24" long, and the bend is tighter at the ends than in the
center. I corrected the angles by clamping them in a home made pan
brake as a vise and adjusting the angle with a rubber hammer and this:
https://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch...mer-66654.html

They are corner reinforcements for an insulated plywood and foam box
for the Alpicool C20 freezer, whose insulation is inadequate in a hot
car.

I made the 4' pan brake to form white aluminum flashing to cover my
exterior window frames, which I rebuilt in PT wood that doesn't hold
paint well. The brake isn't nearly stiff enough to bent 22 gauge steel
but it clamps it well.

When I was completed and was adjusting the brake a neighbor stopped
by, asked what it was, then when I told him, said I could borrow his
10' Tapco siding brake.

-jsw

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:05:35 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 10:01:17 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

.....


I've been cutting and bending 22 gauge galvanized on a 30" 3-in-1
sheet metal machine. It struggles with 22 and 24 would be easier.

Does the struggle leave you with a less-sharp bend, or what? What
width stock are you bending?

3/4" angle 24" long, and the bend is tighter at the ends than in the
center.

Thot so.


I corrected the angles by clamping them in a home made pan
brake as a vise and adjusting the angle with a rubber hammer and this:
https://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch...mer-66654.html

I have the cast iron version of that from eons ago.


They are corner reinforcements for an insulated plywood and foam box
for the Alpicool C20 freezer, whose insulation is inadequate in a hot
car.

Bueno.


I made the 4' pan brake to form white aluminum flashing to cover my
exterior window frames, which I rebuilt in PT wood that doesn't hold
paint well. The brake isn't nearly stiff enough to bent 22 gauge steel
but it clamps it well.

When I was completed and was adjusting the brake a neighbor stopped
by, asked what it was, then when I told him, said I could borrow his
10' Tapco siding brake.

Rat bastid. He waited, eh?


--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:05:35 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
I made the 4' pan brake to form white aluminum flashing to cover my
exterior window frames, which I rebuilt in PT wood that doesn't hold
paint well. The brake isn't nearly stiff enough to bent 22 gauge
steel
but it clamps it well.

When I was completed and was adjusting the brake a neighbor stopped
by, asked what it was, then when I told him, said I could borrow his
10' Tapco siding brake.

Rat bastid. He waited, eh?

The welded and machined end hinge and clamp assemblys bolt to straight
channel, angle and bar stock, so it wasn't recognizable until fully
assembled. I didn't know he had the brake, they aren't common
homeowner tools. Another neighbor gave me a leftover roll of the white
aluminum flashing.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 07:55:54 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:05:35 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
I made the 4' pan brake to form white aluminum flashing to cover my
exterior window frames, which I rebuilt in PT wood that doesn't hold
paint well. The brake isn't nearly stiff enough to bent 22 gauge
steel
but it clamps it well.

When I was completed and was adjusting the brake a neighbor stopped
by, asked what it was, then when I told him, said I could borrow his
10' Tapco siding brake.

Rat bastid. He waited, eh?

The welded and machined end hinge and clamp assemblys bolt to straight
channel, angle and bar stock, so it wasn't recognizable until fully
assembled.

I retract my curse.


I didn't know he had the brake, they aren't common
homeowner tools.

This is true, and mfgrs are very, very proud of those brakes.


Another neighbor gave me a leftover roll of the white aluminum flashing.

Nice score.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns