On Friday, September 10, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, DANKIRLIN wrote:
Fairbanks Morse used opposed piston engines in many railway engines that they
built in Beloit, and in Canada at Canadian Locomotive Company ( CLC ) in
Kingston Ontario. They first used these engines in marine applications where
they engine was mounted horizontally thereby providing access to both
crankshafts and bearings etc.

In railway locomotives, the engines where mounted verticaly which made access
to the bottom crank and bearings, a very time consuming process, and ultimately
the higher maintenance cost of this design led to very early retirements of
these engines. For railway use, this design was offered in the following sizes

6 cylinder / 1000 HP
6 cylinder / 1200 HP ( refinement od above )
8 cylinder / 1600 HP
10 cylinder / 2000 HP
12 cylinder / 2400 HP

Regards

Dan Kirlin
Waterloo, Ontario
We had two of their next to the very smallest 10 cylinder engines aboard my frigate that drove our 500KW auxiliary generators. They were louder than all get out.

wrote in message
...
On Friday, September 10, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, DANKIRLIN wrote:
Fairbanks Morse used opposed piston engines in many railway engines
that they
built in Beloit, and in Canada at Canadian Locomotive Company (
CLC ) in
Kingston Ontario. They first used these engines in marine
applications where
they engine was mounted horizontally thereby providing access to
both
crankshafts and bearings etc.

In railway locomotives, the engines where mounted verticaly which
made access
to the bottom crank and bearings, a very time consuming process,
and ultimately
the higher maintenance cost of this design led to very early
retirements of
these engines. For railway use, this design was offered in the
following sizes

6 cylinder / 1000 HP
6 cylinder / 1200 HP ( refinement od above )
8 cylinder / 1600 HP
10 cylinder / 2000 HP
12 cylinder / 2400 HP

Regards

Dan Kirlin
Waterloo, Ontario
We had two of their next to the very smallest 10 cylinder engines
aboard my frigate that drove our 500KW auxiliary generators. They
were louder than all get out.

What is a "frigate"?

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 06:40:17 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, September 10, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, DANKIRLIN wrote:
Fairbanks Morse used opposed piston engines in many railway engines that they
built in Beloit, and in Canada at Canadian Locomotive Company ( CLC ) in
Kingston Ontario. They first used these engines in marine applications where
they engine was mounted horizontally thereby providing access to both
crankshafts and bearings etc.

In railway locomotives, the engines where mounted verticaly which made access
to the bottom crank and bearings, a very time consuming process, and ultimately
the higher maintenance cost of this design led to very early retirements of
these engines. For railway use, this design was offered in the following sizes

6 cylinder / 1000 HP
6 cylinder / 1200 HP ( refinement od above )
8 cylinder / 1600 HP
10 cylinder / 2000 HP
12 cylinder / 2400 HP

Regards

Dan Kirlin
Waterloo, Ontario
We had two of their next to the very smallest 10 cylinder engines aboard my frigate that drove our 500KW auxiliary generators. They were louder than all get out.


Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:47:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Friday, September 10, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, DANKIRLIN wrote:
Fairbanks Morse used opposed piston engines in many railway engines
that they
built in Beloit, and in Canada at Canadian Locomotive Company (
CLC ) in
Kingston Ontario. They first used these engines in marine
applications where
they engine was mounted horizontally thereby providing access to
both
crankshafts and bearings etc.

In railway locomotives, the engines where mounted verticaly which
made access
to the bottom crank and bearings, a very time consuming process,
and ultimately
the higher maintenance cost of this design led to very early
retirements of
these engines. For railway use, this design was offered in the
following sizes

6 cylinder / 1000 HP
6 cylinder / 1200 HP ( refinement od above )
8 cylinder / 1600 HP
10 cylinder / 2000 HP
12 cylinder / 2400 HP

Regards

Dan Kirlin
Waterloo, Ontario
We had two of their next to the very smallest 10 cylinder engines
aboard my frigate that drove our 500KW auxiliary generators. They
were louder than all get out.

What is a "frigate"?

Navy ship. Most of those I read about are space frigates, so...

-


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is
for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 06:40:17 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, September 10, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, DANKIRLIN wrote:
Fairbanks Morse used opposed piston engines in many railway engines that they
built in Beloit, and in Canada at Canadian Locomotive Company ( CLC ) in
Kingston Ontario. They first used these engines in marine applications where
they engine was mounted horizontally thereby providing access to both
crankshafts and bearings etc.

In railway locomotives, the engines where mounted verticaly which made access
to the bottom crank and bearings, a very time consuming process, and ultimately
the higher maintenance cost of this design led to very early retirements of
these engines. For railway use, this design was offered in the following sizes

6 cylinder / 1000 HP
6 cylinder / 1200 HP ( refinement od above )
8 cylinder / 1600 HP
10 cylinder / 2000 HP
12 cylinder / 2400 HP

Regards

Dan Kirlin
Waterloo, Ontario
We had two of their next to the very smallest 10 cylinder engines aboard my frigate that drove our 500KW auxiliary generators. They were louder than all get out.


Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.

-


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is
for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:47:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
We had two of their next to the very smallest 10 cylinder engines
aboard my frigate that drove our 500KW auxiliary generators. They
were louder than all get out.

What is a "frigate"?

Navy ship. Most of those I read about are space frigates, so...

AFAICT the term is a catch-all for warships that don't fit into older
categories like Destroyer or Cruiser, but other navies may use it
differently.

Historically frigates were fast and powerful enough to operate on
their own, but not too valuable to risk like larger ships-of-the-line,
so the name acquired high status from their bold and daring individual
actions.

-jsw

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 12:27:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.

I've thought the same about my '99 Mazda as well, but maybe it's a little old...

As Al Gore said, "Electric cars aren't for everyone. They're just for about 90% of everyone." As range improves, I expect that number to reach well above 90%.

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 06:40:17 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, September 10, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, DANKIRLIN wrote:
Fairbanks Morse used opposed piston engines in many railway engines that they
built in Beloit, and in Canada at Canadian Locomotive Company ( CLC ) in
Kingston Ontario. They first used these engines in marine applications where
they engine was mounted horizontally thereby providing access to both
crankshafts and bearings etc.

In railway locomotives, the engines where mounted verticaly which made access
to the bottom crank and bearings, a very time consuming process, and ultimately
the higher maintenance cost of this design led to very early retirements of
these engines. For railway use, this design was offered in the following sizes

6 cylinder / 1000 HP
6 cylinder / 1200 HP ( refinement od above )
8 cylinder / 1600 HP
10 cylinder / 2000 HP
12 cylinder / 2400 HP

Regards

Dan Kirlin
Waterloo, Ontario
We had two of their next to the very smallest 10 cylinder engines aboard my frigate that drove our 500KW auxiliary generators. They were louder than all get out.


Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -
-


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is
for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 12:27:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.

I've thought the same about my '99 Mazda as well, but maybe it's a
little old...

As Al Gore said, "Electric cars aren't for everyone. They're just
for about 90% of everyone." As range improves, I expect that number
to reach well above 90%.

We don't have anywhere near the electric generating capacity to
support that.
....
I finally found a fairly decent and inexpensive battery monitor for
home energy projects:
https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multimet.../dp/B01M5CWR2P

It draws a little under 1 Watt for its own use, the current falling as
the voltage rises. With the display constantly lit it uses 35mA from
my 24V batteries.

The voltage error wandered as much as +/-50mV, 5 counts, as I stepped
up the input from 7.5V to 31V while measuring it with a 5-1/2 digit
Fluke. The current tracked my meters within +/-0.2A to 15A. It has a
200A 75mV shunt so an error of 0.1% of that isn't bad.

The downloadable manual is much better than the usual barely
comprehensible garble. Apparently long-pressing OK at CLR rezeroes the
current measurement. Otherwise the meter did what the manual said it
would.

Discharge current is positive, charge is negative, to make the graphic
gauge rise as the battery charges. Starting from reset on a full
battery, the Amp-Hour total increased as the battery discharged and
decreased as it recharged, passing through zero to negative when the
battery's charge current acceptance at 13.6V had fallen very low,
which is a good indication of a nearly full charge since the battery
doesn't waste charge as hydrogen if the charger limits the voltage
there. Exit lights and computer UPSs recharge lead batteries safely
but slowly indoors that way. OTOH the Watt-Hours total just increases
and after the initial discharge where it's useful it double-counts
energy in and back out.

While dedicated Lithium battery fuel gauges can self-calibrate this
one has to be told the battery's Amp-hour capacity. The capacity
indication appears to ignore the excess A-h charge when a lead-acid is
on float and starts the discharge percentage at your programmed value
of 100%. It looks like the A-h total will drift due to full charge
float current unless reset. I'm hoping the A-h total will remain
useful while the battery is partly discharged during an outage..

I tested it with full discharge cycles on an old 12V 18A-h AGM that
has deteriorated to 2.5 Amp-hours, and shallow cycles on my 100A-h
solar bank. The next week's weather forecast is too overcast for a
good test of solar recharging.

I didn't try the wireless connection because the USB one was reliable,
unlike the 30A + relay version of this device.

Previously I used separate unidirectional meters to measure Watt-hours
in and out. The problem is that a lead-acid discharges at a lower
voltage than it charges, which creates a difference between the
Wattage totals. Voltage would be a good indicator of state of charge
if I could leave the battery alone to settle for a few hours, but not
when I need to be using the power.

-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
...
I finally found a fairly decent and inexpensive battery monitor for
home energy projects:
https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multimet.../dp/B01M5CWR2P


I forgot to mention that for a solar panel / inverter system the
battery goes where the manual's Figure 1 shows the power supply, and
the inverter and solar controller are in parallel on the load side.
This makes discharge current positive and the gauge falls as the
battery discharges.

I fused the +Vin wire so a fault in the VAC-1100A can't draw the full
battery current, or at least the 70A it's fused at.

Since my inverter is a UPS it recharges the battery when grid power
returns, and the connection I suggested measures that current as
though it came from the solar panels.

I have a separate meter, a PZEM-031, at the input to the solar
controller to monitor panel output, mainly to detect problems like
high-resistance outdoor connections.

-jsw

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 16:16:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -

I can believe that. Where'd you put the batteries? Range?
Performance? What motor?

A friend bought one of the 4-cylinder 2WD Jeeps a couple years ago. It
had a Fix-It-Again-Tony engine. I asked him why on Earth did he spend
$36k on a tiny POS like that and he gave me a really lame set of
answers, none of which stood on its own, and even together didn't add
up to a sane answer to me. Whatever. His money.

The right rear window exploded while he was driving down the road. He
said he thought a sniper had tried to take him out, but it turned out
to be a known problem with glass stress.

American body, Italian engine, German trannny. (Those last two words
sound so normal together, don't they? LOL)

-


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is
for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

American body, Italian engine, German trannny. (Those last two words
sound so normal together, don't they? LOL)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedwig..._Inch_(musical)

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:37:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 12:27:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.

I've thought the same about my '99 Mazda as well, but maybe it's a
little old...

As Al Gore said, "Electric cars aren't for everyone. They're just
for about 90% of everyone." As range improves, I expect that number
to reach well above 90%.

We don't have anywhere near the electric generating capacity to
support that.

Oh, I know that. We need to go modular with nuclear bases to support
the solar and wind intermittents. Lots of work has been done recently
to heat fluids with solar during the day for conversion at night to
electricity, but that will have to be done with excess solar.


I finally found a fairly decent and inexpensive battery monitor for
home energy projects:
https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multimet.../dp/B01M5CWR2P

It draws a little under 1 Watt for its own use, the current falling as
the voltage rises. With the display constantly lit it uses 35mA from
my 24V batteries.

The voltage error wandered as much as +/-50mV, 5 counts, as I stepped
up the input from 7.5V to 31V while measuring it with a 5-1/2 digit
Fluke. The current tracked my meters within +/-0.2A to 15A. It has a
200A 75mV shunt so an error of 0.1% of that isn't bad.

Yeah, not bad. Digital DC Multimeter 0-90V 0-100A Voltmeter Ammeter
Power Capacity Time Meter | eBay https://is.gd/2uS2sC with shunt
board looks similar, with similar pricing. ($38 for the 2 pcs, lower
cap, higher price) The shunt is a separate piece on the DROK? It
appears that many Chinese vendors have embraced Amazon and the price
differences are minimal between Ebay an Amazon nowadays.

I picked up 5A, 20A, 50A, and 100A shunts for five a pop off Ebay so I
can avoid the errors, thinking they were worse. The Bayites we
discussed have since dropped in price a bit. It's about time for me
to start cutting holes in aluminum panels for their mounting.

Now that I've taken a year off to decompress, It's time ta git me
little solar farm up and running. It was nice not =having= to go out
into the cold mornings. Blackberries have taken over the East 40
again, though. Grrr...


The downloadable manual is much better than the usual barely
comprehensible garble. Apparently long-pressing OK at CLR rezeroes the
current measurement. Otherwise the meter did what the manual said it
would.

Cool. Do you miss the Chinglish, though? :-/


Discharge current is positive, charge is negative, to make the graphic
gauge rise as the battery charges. Starting from reset on a full
battery, the Amp-Hour total increased as the battery discharged and
decreased as it recharged, passing through zero to negative when the
battery's charge current acceptance at 13.6V had fallen very low,
which is a good indication of a nearly full charge since the battery
doesn't waste charge as hydrogen if the charger limits the voltage
there. Exit lights and computer UPSs recharge lead batteries safely
but slowly indoors that way.

Yes, charge current is a good indicator of SOC. UPS batteries seem to
last longer with their stingy system chargers, a good thing.


OTOH the Watt-Hours total just increases
and after the initial discharge where it's useful it double-counts
energy in and back out.

Hmm, not as useful.


While dedicated Lithium battery fuel gauges can self-calibrate this
one has to be told the battery's Amp-hour capacity. The capacity
indication appears to ignore the excess A-h charge when a lead-acid is
on float and starts the discharge percentage at your programmed value
of 100%. It looks like the A-h total will drift due to full charge
float current unless reset. I'm hoping the A-h total will remain
useful while the battery is partly discharged during an outage..

These sounded smarter, at first, than their Bayite predecessors.


I tested it with full discharge cycles on an old 12V 18A-h AGM that
has deteriorated to 2.5 Amp-hours,

A test bed is a test bed, but 1/6 cap? snort


and shallow cycles on my 100A-h
solar bank. The next week's weather forecast is too overcast for a
good test of solar recharging.

We're finally having dry and, if you can call mid-50s spring-like,
welcomed weather here. Bright sun and blue-skied afternoons, YES!


I didn't try the wireless connection because the USB one was reliable,
unlike the 30A + relay version of this device.

USB seems like a handy connector style. Standard USB? I found some
micro boards/connectors on Ebay a while back @ dirt cheap $, and I
have lots of std/micro cables around for my cell, Fire, and Kindle.
What was wrong with the relay version, circuitry or relay contact
failure?


Previously I used separate unidirectional meters to measure Watt-hours
in and out. The problem is that a lead-acid discharges at a lower
voltage than it charges, which creates a difference between the
Wattage totals.

Yeah, that sounds self-defeating, with the lead/lag A/V play, but now
you know.


Voltage would be a good indicator of state of charge
if I could leave the battery alone to settle for a few hours, but not
when I need to be using the power.

True. What are you going to do with all that -power-, though? 2.5Ah!
Wow. gd&r That's enough to idle your laptop with the monitor off.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 06:51:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 16:16:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -

I can believe that. Where'd you put the batteries? Range?
Performance? What motor?

Military surplusaircraft generator for motor, 6 GC2h batteries in the
trunk where the fueltank used to be and 2 under the hood withthe motor

50 miles at 30mph, 30 miles at 50mph, running through the 4 speed
manual trans with no clutch and a simple stepped resistance controller
with series/parallel switching and field weakening.

24 volts through resistor to 24 without resisrtor, to 48 with resistor
to 48 without resistor, to reduced field current through rheostat.

A friend bought one of the 4-cylinder 2WD Jeeps a couple years ago. It
had a Fix-It-Again-Tony engine. I asked him why on Earth did he spend
$36k on a tiny POS like that and he gave me a really lame set of
answers, none of which stood on its own, and even together didn't add
up to a sane answer to me. Whatever. His money.

The right rear window exploded while he was driving down the road. He
said he thought a sniper had tried to take him out, but it turned out
to be a known problem with glass stress.

American body, Italian engine, German trannny. (Those last two words
sound so normal together, don't they? LOL)

-


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is
for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:35:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

American body, Italian engine, German trannny. (Those last two words
sound so normal together, don't they? LOL)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedwig..._Inch_(musical)

Egad! Run away, run away!

-


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is
for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:44:00 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 06:51:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 16:16:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -

I can believe that. Where'd you put the batteries? Range?
Performance? What motor?

Military surplusaircraft generator for motor,

That's cool how generators can be used as motors.


6 GC2h batteries in the
trunk where the fueltank used to be and 2 under the hood withthe motor

That probably balanced the load pretty well.


50 miles at 30mph, 30 miles at 50mph, running through the 4 speed
manual trans with no clutch and a simple stepped resistance controller
with series/parallel switching and field weakening.

That's not bad for old-school. Did you rig up an accelerator pedal,
or use hand controls? Toggles and a BAN? (big ass knob


24 volts through resistor to 24 without resisrtor, to 48 with resistor
to 48 without resistor, to reduced field current through rheostat.

So, 4 power ranges with some variability plus the tranny to change
speed ranges. That sounds like it probably worked pretty well. Massive
wirewounds? What kind of horsepower would it kick out? Any idea?
128s weighed 1,800ish, and probably not much change swapping out heavy
gas and engine for batteries. Those remind me of the very early
Datsuns, the first Japanese cars here in the '60s.

--
[Television is] the triumph of machine over people.
-- Fred Allen

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:37:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
.....
I finally found a fairly decent and inexpensive battery monitor for
home energy projects:
https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multimet.../dp/B01M5CWR2P
...

Yes, charge current is a good indicator of SOC. UPS batteries seem
to
last longer with their stingy system chargers, a good thing.

I've heard that power wheelchair batteries may not last very long
because the user charges them only while in bed, so they rarely reach
full charge. The numbers are 1-2 years, compared to maybe 5 years for
the same battery in a golf cart that has longer to recharge. I know
from a job repairing medical equipment that the owners buy the
cheapest wet batteries when the original AGMs die. Supposedly that's a
consequence of the slow and fussy bureaucracy of government
healthcare.

My backup system could have the same charging problem. I hope a week
or so at partial discharge followed by a full equalizing charge
outdoors after the grid returns won't hurt the batteries much.


While dedicated Lithium battery fuel gauges can self-calibrate this
one has to be told the battery's Amp-hour capacity. The capacity
indication appears to ignore the excess A-h charge when a lead-acid
is
on float and starts the discharge percentage at your programmed
value
of 100%. It looks like the A-h total will drift due to full charge
float current unless reset. I'm hoping the A-h total will remain
useful while the battery is partly discharged during an outage..

These sounded smarter, at first, than their Bayite predecessors.

More importantly the VAC-1100A measures bidirectional current in the
ground lead of the supply that powers it, meaning that one current
sense input functions at as much as -37.5mV below the negative power
supply rail. The other +/- current meters that I have need an isolated
power supply that lets them float the negative-lead shunt up to their
+1.2V reference voltage. However the meter vendors don't offer a
suitable step-down switching power supply with an isolated output.
I've been using cheap surplus cell phone chargers with obsolete plugs,
which are fine for bench testing but not for running on DC during
power outages.

I've mentioned both this power supply problem and the poor/absent
manuals to Drok. Perhaps they listened.

I tested it with full discharge cycles on an old 12V 18A-h AGM that
has deteriorated to 2.5 Amp-hours,

A test bed is a test bed, but 1/6 cap? snort

It was the best one remaining from a bunch of second-hand exit light
AGMs I acquired around 2010. Its low capacity minimizes cycle times
while I check out the discharge testing hardware.

What was wrong with the relay version, circuitry or relay contact
failure?

A flaky USB connection, and possibly intermittent measurement errors,
I only checked it briefly and may have misread the tiny display. It's
for unattended discharge capacity testing using the relay to
disconnect the battery at 10.5V, but those tests are time consuming
and way down on my to-do list.


Previously I used separate unidirectional meters to measure
Watt-hours
in and out. The problem is that a lead-acid discharges at a lower
voltage than it charges, which creates a difference between the
Wattage totals.

Yeah, that sounds self-defeating, with the lead/lag A/V play, but
now
you know.

I thought I could correct the Watt-hour difference with a simple
factor like 12/13, but the discharge voltage drop also varies with the
load current, SOC and battery age. For example after that old AGM
drops out at 10.5V @ 5A it recovers to about 12.1V. I pulled 5 A-h out
of it at lower current.

Voltage would be a good indicator of state of charge
if I could leave the battery alone to settle for a few hours, but
not
when I need to be using the power.

True. What are you going to do with all that -power-, though?
2.5Ah!
Wow. gd&r That's enough to idle your laptop with the monitor
off.

I have nominally 4 KWH of storage and a measured 300 Watts of 24V
charging power, slightly more than enough to keep up with the fridge,
two computers and the TV or to replace what the fridge used overnight.
..

-jsw

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:48:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:44:00 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 06:51:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 16:16:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -

I can believe that. Where'd you put the batteries? Range?
Performance? What motor?

Military surplusaircraft generator for motor,

That's cool how generators can be used as motors.


6 GC2h batteries in the
trunk where the fueltank used to be and 2 under the hood withthe motor

That probably balanced the load pretty well.
It was still a bit light on the front, and I added a fiat station
wagon spring on the rear


50 miles at 30mph, 30 miles at 50mph, running through the 4 speed
manual trans with no clutch and a simple stepped resistance controller
with series/parallel switching and field weakening.

That's not bad for old-school. Did you rig up an accelerator pedal,
or use hand controls? Toggles and a BAN? (big ass knob

It was all done with a drum switch from an old forklift, rewired and
connected to the accellerator pedal through a spring, which allowed
the linkage to work the rheostat when it reached the end of the drum
switch travel. The 24/48 switching was done with a few big-assed
diodes and a single contactor.


24 volts through resistor to 24 without resisrtor, to 48 with resistor
to 48 without resistor, to reduced field current through rheostat.

So, 4 power ranges with some variability plus the tranny to change
speed ranges. That sounds like it probably worked pretty well. Massive
wirewounds? What kind of horsepower would it kick out? Any idea?

The resistors were made of 16? guage stainless steel sheet about 1
1/4 inches wide, about18 inches? long. Actually there were two
resistor stages - full resistance, half resistance, no resistance
128s weighed 1,800ish, and probably not much change swapping out heavy
gas and engine for batteries. Those remind me of the very early
Datsuns, the first Japanese cars here in the '60s.

It was about 100 lbs heavier after removing sound deadening, exhaust,
fuelsystem, engine, etc.
This was the sporty little coupe body - looked pretty sweet but even
though less than 5 years old it had a fair bit of "metal worm"
infestation.

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:48:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


It was all done with a drum switch from an old forklift, rewired and
connected to the accellerator pedal through a spring, which allowed
the linkage to work the rheostat when it reached the end of the drum
switch travel. The 24/48 switching was done with a few big-assed
diodes and a single contactor.


24 volts through resistor to 24 without resisrtor, to 48 with
resistor
to 48 without resistor, to reduced field current through rheostat.

So, 4 power ranges with some variability plus the tranny to change
speed ranges. That sounds like it probably worked pretty well.
Massive
wirewounds? What kind of horsepower would it kick out? Any idea?

The resistors were made of 16? guage stainless steel sheet about 1
1/4 inches wide, about18 inches? long. Actually there were two
resistor stages - full resistance, half resistance, no resistance
128s weighed 1,800ish, and probably not much change swapping out
heavy
gas and engine for batteries. Those remind me of the very early
Datsuns, the first Japanese cars here in the '60s.

It was about 100 lbs heavier after removing sound deadening,
exhaust,
fuelsystem, engine, etc.
This was the sporty little coupe body - looked pretty sweet but even
though less than 5 years old it had a fair bit of "metal worm"
infestation.

Electric conversions are much nicer now, with efficient and smoothly
variable speed controls.
http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_...0Kits/567.html

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:21:24 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:48:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:44:00 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 06:51:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 16:16:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -

I can believe that. Where'd you put the batteries? Range?
Performance? What motor?

Military surplusaircraft generator for motor,

That's cool how generators can be used as motors.


6 GC2h batteries in the
trunk where the fueltank used to be and 2 under the hood withthe motor

That probably balanced the load pretty well.
It was still a bit light on the front, and I added a fiat station
wagon spring on the rear

Those were pre-airbag times, weren't they?


50 miles at 30mph, 30 miles at 50mph, running through the 4 speed
manual trans with no clutch and a simple stepped resistance controller
with series/parallel switching and field weakening.

That's not bad for old-school. Did you rig up an accelerator pedal,
or use hand controls? Toggles and a BAN? (big ass knob

It was all done with a drum switch from an old forklift, rewired and
connected to the accellerator pedal through a spring, which allowed
the linkage to work the rheostat when it reached the end of the drum
switch travel. The 24/48 switching was done with a few big-assed
diodes and a single contactor.

Pretty cool.


24 volts through resistor to 24 without resisrtor, to 48 with resistor
to 48 without resistor, to reduced field current through rheostat.

So, 4 power ranges with some variability plus the tranny to change
speed ranges. That sounds like it probably worked pretty well. Massive
wirewounds? What kind of horsepower would it kick out? Any idea?

The resistors were made of 16? guage stainless steel sheet about 1
1/4 inches wide, about18 inches? long. Actually there were two
resistor stages - full resistance, half resistance, no resistance

Less than a few ohms apiece? How did you think to use that?


128s weighed 1,800ish, and probably not much change swapping out heavy
gas and engine for batteries. Those remind me of the very early
Datsuns, the first Japanese cars here in the '60s.

It was about 100 lbs heavier after removing sound deadening, exhaust,
fuelsystem, engine, etc.
This was the sporty little coupe body - looked pretty sweet but even
though less than 5 years old it had a fair bit of "metal worm"
infestation.

I've heard about those places which cause that to happen to vehicles
and I've chosen to avoid living in them, TYVM. Snow is fun to watch
-others- live with, but rust is something I don't want to know about.
g

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:37:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
.....
I finally found a fairly decent and inexpensive battery monitor for
home energy projects:
https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multimet.../dp/B01M5CWR2P
...

Yes, charge current is a good indicator of SOC. UPS batteries seem
to
last longer with their stingy system chargers, a good thing.

I've heard that power wheelchair batteries may not last very long
because the user charges them only while in bed, so they rarely reach
full charge.

Huh? Not fully charged after 8-10hrs?


The numbers are 1-2 years, compared to maybe 5 years for
the same battery in a golf cart that has longer to recharge. I know
from a job repairing medical equipment that the owners buy the
cheapest wet batteries when the original AGMs die. Supposedly that's a
consequence of the slow and fussy bureaucracy of government
healthcare.

My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.


My backup system could have the same charging problem. I hope a week
or so at partial discharge followed by a full equalizing charge
outdoors after the grid returns won't hurt the batteries much.

It shouldn't, but with _your_ batteries... LOL


While dedicated Lithium battery fuel gauges can self-calibrate this
one has to be told the battery's Amp-hour capacity. The capacity
indication appears to ignore the excess A-h charge when a lead-acid
is
on float and starts the discharge percentage at your programmed
value
of 100%. It looks like the A-h total will drift due to full charge
float current unless reset. I'm hoping the A-h total will remain
useful while the battery is partly discharged during an outage..

These sounded smarter, at first, than their Bayite predecessors.

More importantly the VAC-1100A measures bidirectional current in the
ground lead of the supply that powers it, meaning that one current
sense input functions at as much as -37.5mV below the negative power
supply rail. The other +/- current meters that I have need an isolated
power supply that lets them float the negative-lead shunt up to their
+1.2V reference voltage. However the meter vendors don't offer a
suitable step-down switching power supply with an isolated output.
I've been using cheap surplus cell phone chargers with obsolete plugs,
which are fine for bench testing but not for running on DC during
power outages.

I've mentioned both this power supply problem and the poor/absent
manuals to Drok. Perhaps they listened.

That's good.


I tested it with full discharge cycles on an old 12V 18A-h AGM that
has deteriorated to 2.5 Amp-hours,

A test bed is a test bed, but 1/6 cap? snort

It was the best one remaining from a bunch of second-hand exit light
AGMs I acquired around 2010. Its low capacity minimizes cycle times
while I check out the discharge testing hardware.

OK, it does what you need.


What was wrong with the relay version, circuitry or relay contact
failure?

A flaky USB connection, and possibly intermittent measurement errors,
I only checked it briefly and may have misread the tiny display. It's
for unattended discharge capacity testing using the relay to
disconnect the battery at 10.5V, but those tests are time consuming
and way down on my to-do list.

It's hard to stay attentive to long-term monitoring. I tend to set my
watch for a handful of minutes, then go check, resetting the watch
alarm each time.


Previously I used separate unidirectional meters to measure
Watt-hours
in and out. The problem is that a lead-acid discharges at a lower
voltage than it charges, which creates a difference between the
Wattage totals.

Yeah, that sounds self-defeating, with the lead/lag A/V play, but
now
you know.

I thought I could correct the Watt-hour difference with a simple
factor like 12/13, but the discharge voltage drop also varies with the
load current, SOC and battery age. For example after that old AGM
drops out at 10.5V @ 5A it recovers to about 12.1V. I pulled 5 A-h out
of it at lower current.

Internal resistances play havoc with everything, triggering dropouts,
alarms, etc. Batteries can be perfectly good for most things, but try
to start a car with one and it will go TU in a heartbeat.

What do you make of these: 12 Volts Lead Acid Battery Desulfator
Assembled Kit | eBay https://is.gd/5cBjNg $8 (120Hz pulse)


Voltage would be a good indicator of state of charge
if I could leave the battery alone to settle for a few hours, but
not
when I need to be using the power.

True. What are you going to do with all that -power-, though?
2.5Ah!
Wow. gd&r That's enough to idle your laptop with the monitor
off.

I have nominally 4 KWH of storage and a measured 300 Watts of 24V
charging power, slightly more than enough to keep up with the fridge,
two computers and the TV or to replace what the fridge used overnight.

Whew! I'm glad it's not just that one battery. :-) What does that
4kwh work out to in ah? 166.7? Not a bad set. (Pair of group 27s?)

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 19:56:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

snip


My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.

Your neighbor is misinformed. The Medicare Claims Processing Manual
(Chapter20) has an entire section on processing for purchases of used
equipment (30.1.1 - Used Equipment) and an other section on purchasing
used rental equipment.

https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-.../clm104c20.pdf

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 12:25:32 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:21:24 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:48:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:44:00 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 06:51:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 16:16:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -

I can believe that. Where'd you put the batteries? Range?
Performance? What motor?

Military surplusaircraft generator for motor,

That's cool how generators can be used as motors.


6 GC2h batteries in the
trunk where the fueltank used to be and 2 under the hood withthe motor

That probably balanced the load pretty well.
It was still a bit light on the front, and I added a fiat station
wagon spring on the rear

Those were pre-airbag times, weren't they?

Definitely. Early energy absorbing bumper days


50 miles at 30mph, 30 miles at 50mph, running through the 4 speed
manual trans with no clutch and a simple stepped resistance controller
with series/parallel switching and field weakening.

That's not bad for old-school. Did you rig up an accelerator pedal,
or use hand controls? Toggles and a BAN? (big ass knob

It was all done with a drum switch from an old forklift, rewired and
connected to the accellerator pedal through a spring, which allowed
the linkage to work the rheostat when it reached the end of the drum
switch travel. The 24/48 switching was done with a few big-assed
diodes and a single contactor.

Pretty cool.


24 volts through resistor to 24 without resisrtor, to 48 with resistor
to 48 without resistor, to reduced field current through rheostat.

So, 4 power ranges with some variability plus the tranny to change
speed ranges. That sounds like it probably worked pretty well. Massive
wirewounds? What kind of horsepower would it kick out? Any idea?

The resistors were made of 16? guage stainless steel sheet about 1
1/4 inches wide, about18 inches? long. Actually there were two
resistor stages - full resistance, half resistance, no resistance

Less than a few ohms apiece? How did you think to use that?

Basic knowlege, I needed something that wouldn't overheat and melt,
and wouldn't drive me to bankrupsy. Stainless steel and nichrome are
first cousins - - -


128s weighed 1,800ish, and probably not much change swapping out heavy
gas and engine for batteries. Those remind me of the very early
Datsuns, the first Japanese cars here in the '60s.

It was about 100 lbs heavier after removing sound deadening, exhaust,
fuelsystem, engine, etc.
This was the sporty little coupe body - looked pretty sweet but even
though less than 5 years old it had a fair bit of "metal worm"
infestation.

I've heard about those places which cause that to happen to vehicles
and I've chosen to avoid living in them, TYVM. Snow is fun to watch
-others- live with, but rust is something I don't want to know about.
g
This car was only on theroad for 2 years - it rusted while sitting
waiting for the engine to be replaced underwarranty. The dealership
went broke while the car was in their care - ther OP got it back after
the bankeupsy was cleared - with a brand new engine installed but not
connected and never run.
He sold it to a friend, who had an X19 with a bad engine - who gave me
the car for changing the engine. I thinkit had all of 15000 miles on
it.

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 19:56:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:37:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
.....
I finally found a fairly decent and inexpensive battery monitor for
home energy projects:
https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multimet.../dp/B01M5CWR2P
...

Yes, charge current is a good indicator of SOC. UPS batteries seem
to
last longer with their stingy system chargers, a good thing.

I've heard that power wheelchair batteries may not last very long
because the user charges them only while in bed, so they rarely reach
full charge.

Huh? Not fully charged after 8-10hrs?

The charger I have is 8 amps.
Thats 80 amp hours maximum in 8 hours. On mmost chairs, that is a
full charge - but some have heavier batteries (and also heavier
chargers)


The numbers are 1-2 years, compared to maybe 5 years for
the same battery in a golf cart that has longer to recharge. I know
from a job repairing medical equipment that the owners buy the
cheapest wet batteries when the original AGMs die. Supposedly that's a
consequence of the slow and fussy bureaucracy of government
healthcare.

My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.


The "authourized supplier"setup is alsowhat puts the price so high. If
it is being paid by the insurance, theprice is ridiculous.

A chair that costs $2400 through insurance in Ontario sells for less
than $300 in Hong Kong - and because they won't pay for used equipment
or equipment not purchaced from the authorized suppliers, used chairs
have very little value.

At least here in Ontario. - with the ADP - Assistive Device Program.

My backup system could have the same charging problem. I hope a week
or so at partial discharge followed by a full equalizing charge
outdoors after the grid returns won't hurt the batteries much.

It shouldn't, but with _your_ batteries... LOL


While dedicated Lithium battery fuel gauges can self-calibrate this
one has to be told the battery's Amp-hour capacity. The capacity
indication appears to ignore the excess A-h charge when a lead-acid
is
on float and starts the discharge percentage at your programmed
value
of 100%. It looks like the A-h total will drift due to full charge
float current unless reset. I'm hoping the A-h total will remain
useful while the battery is partly discharged during an outage..

These sounded smarter, at first, than their Bayite predecessors.

More importantly the VAC-1100A measures bidirectional current in the
ground lead of the supply that powers it, meaning that one current
sense input functions at as much as -37.5mV below the negative power
supply rail. The other +/- current meters that I have need an isolated
power supply that lets them float the negative-lead shunt up to their
+1.2V reference voltage. However the meter vendors don't offer a
suitable step-down switching power supply with an isolated output.
I've been using cheap surplus cell phone chargers with obsolete plugs,
which are fine for bench testing but not for running on DC during
power outages.

I've mentioned both this power supply problem and the poor/absent
manuals to Drok. Perhaps they listened.

That's good.


I tested it with full discharge cycles on an old 12V 18A-h AGM that
has deteriorated to 2.5 Amp-hours,

A test bed is a test bed, but 1/6 cap? snort

It was the best one remaining from a bunch of second-hand exit light
AGMs I acquired around 2010. Its low capacity minimizes cycle times
while I check out the discharge testing hardware.

OK, it does what you need.


What was wrong with the relay version, circuitry or relay contact
failure?

A flaky USB connection, and possibly intermittent measurement errors,
I only checked it briefly and may have misread the tiny display. It's
for unattended discharge capacity testing using the relay to
disconnect the battery at 10.5V, but those tests are time consuming
and way down on my to-do list.

It's hard to stay attentive to long-term monitoring. I tend to set my
watch for a handful of minutes, then go check, resetting the watch
alarm each time.


Previously I used separate unidirectional meters to measure
Watt-hours
in and out. The problem is that a lead-acid discharges at a lower
voltage than it charges, which creates a difference between the
Wattage totals.

Yeah, that sounds self-defeating, with the lead/lag A/V play, but
now
you know.

I thought I could correct the Watt-hour difference with a simple
factor like 12/13, but the discharge voltage drop also varies with the
load current, SOC and battery age. For example after that old AGM
drops out at 10.5V @ 5A it recovers to about 12.1V. I pulled 5 A-h out
of it at lower current.

Internal resistances play havoc with everything, triggering dropouts,
alarms, etc. Batteries can be perfectly good for most things, but try
to start a car with one and it will go TU in a heartbeat.

What do you make of these: 12 Volts Lead Acid Battery Desulfator
Assembled Kit | eBay https://is.gd/5cBjNg $8 (120Hz pulse)


Voltage would be a good indicator of state of charge
if I could leave the battery alone to settle for a few hours, but
not
when I need to be using the power.

True. What are you going to do with all that -power-, though?
2.5Ah!
Wow. gd&r That's enough to idle your laptop with the monitor
off.

I have nominally 4 KWH of storage and a measured 300 Watts of 24V
charging power, slightly more than enough to keep up with the fridge,
two computers and the TV or to replace what the fridge used overnight.

Whew! I'm glad it's not just that one battery. :-) What does that
4kwh work out to in ah? 166.7? Not a bad set. (Pair of group 27s?)

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 12:25:32 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:21:24 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:48:22 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:44:00 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 06:51:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 16:16:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:27:41 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:43:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Be prepared to see Achates opposed piston multi-fuel engines in light
trucks within 5 years. they are 2 stroke turbo-compounded engines with
INSANE torque that fit into the same space as a common inline engine
like a cummins, or V8 like a Powerstroke.

Like the Kei cars in Japan? I've been seeing 440cc and 660cc engines
listed in Toyota Car and Truck shows lately.

I wonder if they could support generators for massive electric car
range extension. That might be the clincher for selling electric cars
to the masses, even though 90%+ of people don't need that kind of
range.

Rather than rebuilding my 4.7L Toyota engine next decade, should it
need it, I'd rather put the money into an electric motor and
batteries.


That's what I did with my 1975 Fiat 128L coupe back in about 1980. It
wasn't the most dependable ride, but it was sure better than when it
was FIAT powered - - -

I can believe that. Where'd you put the batteries? Range?
Performance? What motor?

Military surplusaircraft generator for motor,

That's cool how generators can be used as motors.


6 GC2h batteries in the
trunk where the fueltank used to be and 2 under the hood withthe motor

That probably balanced the load pretty well.
It was still a bit light on the front, and I added a fiat station
wagon spring on the rear

Those were pre-airbag times, weren't they?

Definitely. Early energy absorbing bumper days


50 miles at 30mph, 30 miles at 50mph, running through the 4 speed
manual trans with no clutch and a simple stepped resistance controller
with series/parallel switching and field weakening.

That's not bad for old-school. Did you rig up an accelerator pedal,
or use hand controls? Toggles and a BAN? (big ass knob

It was all done with a drum switch from an old forklift, rewired and
connected to the accellerator pedal through a spring, which allowed
the linkage to work the rheostat when it reached the end of the drum
switch travel. The 24/48 switching was done with a few big-assed
diodes and a single contactor.

Pretty cool.


24 volts through resistor to 24 without resisrtor, to 48 with resistor
to 48 without resistor, to reduced field current through rheostat.

So, 4 power ranges with some variability plus the tranny to change
speed ranges. That sounds like it probably worked pretty well. Massive
wirewounds? What kind of horsepower would it kick out? Any idea?

The resistors were made of 16? guage stainless steel sheet about 1
1/4 inches wide, about18 inches? long. Actually there were two
resistor stages - full resistance, half resistance, no resistance

Less than a few ohms apiece? How did you think to use that?

Basic knowlege, I needed something that wouldn't overheat and melt,
and wouldn't drive me to bankrupsy. Stainless steel and nichrome are
first cousins - - -


128s weighed 1,800ish, and probably not much change swapping out heavy
gas and engine for batteries. Those remind me of the very early
Datsuns, the first Japanese cars here in the '60s.

It was about 100 lbs heavier after removing sound deadening, exhaust,
fuelsystem, engine, etc.
This was the sporty little coupe body - looked pretty sweet but even
though less than 5 years old it had a fair bit of "metal worm"
infestation.

I've heard about those places which cause that to happen to vehicles
and I've chosen to avoid living in them, TYVM. Snow is fun to watch
-others- live with, but rust is something I don't want to know about.
g
This car was only on theroad for 2 years - it rusted while sitting
waiting for the engine to be replaced underwarranty. The dealership
went broke while the car was in their care - ther OP got it back after
the bankeupsy was cleared - with a brand new engine installed but not
connected and never run.
He sold it to a friend, who had an X19 with a bad engine - who gave me
the car for changing the engine. I thinkit had all of 15000 miles on
it.

Dad had a 128 back about then. Ran like a scalded dog, and handled
like a slot car. Mom and I drove it to Montana and back from Texas in
1974. The only time I ever got it a little loose on the road was
going about 60 mph in a turn on a dirt road over the top of a rise so
it unloaded on the back side.

It rusted out in about 2 years. Dad figured they dropped it in the
harbor unloading it. But those Fiat commercials a couple years ago
showed what really happened.... They drove them over underwater.

Pete Keillor

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I've heard that power wheelchair batteries may not last very long
because the user charges them only while in bed, so they rarely
reach
full charge.

Huh? Not fully charged after 8-10hrs?

Not with a taper charger, the current automatically decreases as the
voltage rises. That's good to control hydrogen generation and
electrolyte loss but the batteries don't charge as fast as you'd
expect from the charger rating. If you need a full charge quickly you
have to raise the voltage well into the gassing range for a few hours.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...d_acid_battery
https://www.iotaengineering.com/ppli..._Batteries.pdf

An even smarter way is to also monitor and limit the current, relative
to the battery's SOC and Amp-hour capacity. But that's for industry or
submarines, and too much to expect for consumer equipment.

Subs can have battery charging problems too. This is one of several
plausible scenarios for the sinking.
http://www.burtonsys.com/USS_Scorpion.html

My P20L solar controller shows the danger of trying to be Smart with
insufficient information. The wet, AGM and gel battery type selections
have it raising the limit voltage temporarily for a Bulk / Absorption
phase but it doesn't know the battery's capacity or how far it has
discharged, so it overdoes the higher voltage on shallow cycling. I
changed the battery type to Lithium in which it simply limits current
once the battery reaches the programmed Float voltage.

My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be
recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month
old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable
are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.

There is a flourishing grey market in recycling those things. I
repaired them for a major dealer and stayed away from the unofficial
end to avoid liability and the temptation to divert still-useful
discarded parts to home projects.

At Segway the scrap bins were conveniently next to the lab exit so the
engineers wouldn't have to carry their heavy home-project acquisitions
very far. If an especially juicy artifact became available it was
announced and left in an open space for us to plunder. I got the 3"
diameter guide pins from a fender mold and some thick plate stock.
Whatever steel it is, it machines nicely to a good finish.

My backup system could have the same charging problem. I hope a week
or so at partial discharge followed by a full equalizing charge
outdoors after the grid returns won't hurt the batteries much.

It shouldn't, but with _your_ batteries... LOL

That's why I kept a few old ones to test until the HF carbon pile
tester tells me they've degenerated into trade-ins.

....It's
for unattended discharge capacity testing using the relay to
disconnect the battery at 10.5V, but those tests are time consuming
and way down on my to-do list.

It's hard to stay attentive to long-term monitoring. I tend to set
my
watch for a handful of minutes, then go check, resetting the watch
alarm each time.

I set up the test in a place I walk past while doing other things,
normally the top of the washing machine. The laundry sink is handy in
case I splash acid. I extended my solar panel wiring there for free
long term trickle charging.

What do you make of these: 12 Volts Lead Acid Battery Desulfator
Assembled Kit | eBay https://is.gd/5cBjNg $8 (120Hz pulse)

I haven't looked at pulse desulfators for the practical reason that my
home made variable DC supplies soon show if the sulfated battery is
responding, by the increasing current it will accept. I've learned how
to interpret the voltages and currents the meters show me.

If you want set-and-forget I don't see why pulse desulfators wouldn't
work. However you won't know the result until your vehicle fails to
start.

Also the pulse voltage can damage connected electronics if the battery
won't absorb it and pulse desulfators aren't as suited to routinely
topping off the battery in the car, to make up the parasitic drain of
the computer etc. My variable DC chargers can show me if the battery
is starting to sulfate and needs attention, without disconnecting it.
I use old batteries my neighbors have discarded in my garden tractor
and they demand fairly frequent maintenance.

Whew! I'm glad it's not just that one battery. :-) What does that
4kwh work out to in ah? 166.7? Not a bad set. (Pair of group 27s?)

Group 31s, the same size with more convenient terminals. 24V * 105A-h
is 2.5 KWH, but in practice I get less than 2 KWH. The limit is when
the battery voltage drops to the inverter's low voltage cutoff as the
refrigerator compressor starts. I can still run the laptops and TV for
a while longer.

Setting the cutoff lower gains me only a few minutes. Once the battery
approaches 11V at light load its impedance increases rapidly.

-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news


This may apply to Gunner's bolt collection, it does to mine.

At Segway the scrap bins were conveniently next to the lab exit ...

Industry has no use for material that can't be sold as new under
warranty. Every piece of hardware I removed to repair anything was
instantly scrap and had to be replaced with new stock, correctly
torqued one time.

The old stuff or anything pulled from stock to use in the lab
accumulated until cleanup days when it had to disappear. The old
hardware doesn't even have significant scrap value because it's
plated, possibly with toxic Cadmium that will vaporize when it's
melted.

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be
recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month
old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable
are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.

The firms I worked for restored used medical equipment to a condition
Medicare would accept, as long as the customers' paperwork was fully
in order. And that was a major issue for many of the elderly. I know
some fell through the cracks but not why. Just doing my job here,
Ma'am.

As I've seen in my own affairs the system has little or no flexibility
to accomodate unforeseen exceptions, yet it's easily milked by those
who understand it. The government strives for fairness, economy and
value are completely foreign to Uncle Sugar. At least the industry pay
scale was nice.
-jsw

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 12:25:32 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:
That probably balanced the load pretty well.
It was still a bit light on the front, and I added a fiat station
wagon spring on the rear

Those were pre-airbag times, weren't they?

Definitely. Early energy absorbing bumper days

Erm, I meant for suspension height, not passenger safety.


snip
The resistors were made of 16? guage stainless steel sheet about 1
1/4 inches wide, about18 inches? long. Actually there were two
resistor stages - full resistance, half resistance, no resistance

Less than a few ohms apiece? How did you think to use that?

Basic knowlege, I needed something that wouldn't overheat and melt,
and wouldn't drive me to bankrupsy. Stainless steel and nichrome are
first cousins - - -

Ah dinna know that. What was the actual resistance, or did you
measure it?


snip
I've heard about those places which cause that to happen to vehicles
and I've chosen to avoid living in them, TYVM. Snow is fun to watch
-others- live with, but rust is something I don't want to know about.
g
This car was only on theroad for 2 years - it rusted while sitting
waiting for the engine to be replaced underwarranty. The dealership
went broke while the car was in their care - ther OP got it back after
the bankeupsy was cleared - with a brand new engine installed but not
connected and never run.
He sold it to a friend, who had an X19 with a bad engine - who gave me
the car for changing the engine. I thinkit had all of 15000 miles on
it.

Amazing story. Everybody but the dealer benefited from the car.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder

wrote:


Ah dinna know that. What was the actual resistance, or did you
measure it?

How would you measure a very low resistance? It isn't easy.
-jsw

On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:09:08 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder

wrote:


Ah dinna know that. What was the actual resistance, or did you
measure it?

How would you measure a very low resistance? It isn't easy.
-jsw

With a Wheatstone bridge, although lead resistance becomes an issue in
measuring hundreths of an ohm.

But this is an easy one. You can just look up the values in online
tables. I made a water heater out of 19 gauge stainless wire once, and
I worked with a table to figure the length.

It worked off of my car cigarette lighter. It was too hard to clean
soup off of it. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 05 Feb 2018 20:38:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:09:08 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder

wrote:


Ah dinna know that. What was the actual resistance, or did you
measure it?

How would you measure a very low resistance? It isn't easy.
-jsw

With a Wheatstone bridge, although lead resistance becomes an issue in
measuring hundreths of an ohm.

But this is an easy one. You can just look up the values in online
tables. I made a water heater out of 19 gauge stainless wire once, and
I worked with a table to figure the length.

It worked off of my car cigarette lighter. It was too hard to clean
soup off of it. g
correct - used tables of resistance vs cross sectional
area/length/alloy

On Mon, 05 Feb 2018 16:46:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 12:25:32 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:
That probably balanced the load pretty well.
It was still a bit light on the front, and I added a fiat station
wagon spring on the rear

Those were pre-airbag times, weren't they?

Definitely. Early energy absorbing bumper days

Erm, I meant for suspension height, not passenger safety.


I had air shocks on the FRONT of my 1996 Ramcharger to keep the plow
frame off the ground. Firestone and a few other manufacturers had
"bags" available backthen as well.

snip
The resistors were made of 16? guage stainless steel sheet about 1
1/4 inches wide, about18 inches? long. Actually there were two
resistor stages - full resistance, half resistance, no resistance

Less than a few ohms apiece? How did you think to use that?

Basic knowlege, I needed something that wouldn't overheat and melt,
and wouldn't drive me to bankrupsy. Stainless steel and nichrome are
first cousins - - -

Ah dinna know that. What was the actual resistance, or did you
measure it?

Cannot remember exactly but something 1.5 ohms or less, for sure.

snip
I've heard about those places which cause that to happen to vehicles
and I've chosen to avoid living in them, TYVM. Snow is fun to watch
-others- live with, but rust is something I don't want to know about.
g
This car was only on theroad for 2 years - it rusted while sitting
waiting for the engine to be replaced underwarranty. The dealership
went broke while the car was in their care - ther OP got it back after
the bankeupsy was cleared - with a brand new engine installed but not
connected and never run.
He sold it to a friend, who had an X19 with a bad engine - who gave me
the car for changing the engine. I thinkit had all of 15000 miles on
it.

Amazing story. Everybody but the dealer benefited from the car.

The owner sure didn't About $3000 car - got 2 years of driving out of
it and got $200 for it 3 years later.

If ANYONE benefitted from the car it was the dealer. They made the
initial markup and goit paid by Fiat for installing the engine - and
STILL went bust.

On 2018-02-06, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder

wrote:


Ah dinna know that. What was the actual resistance, or did you
measure it?

How would you measure a very low resistance? It isn't easy.
-jsw

Put a known current through it -- either with a bench power
supply with a current limit adjustment, or an adjustable voltage across
a known resistance in series with the unknown one. In the second case,
measure the voltage across the known resistance to calculate the
current, and measure the voltage drop between the two ends of the SS
resistor using a low voltage digital multimeter. Divide measured
voltage by the current and you have the resistance. (Or, if you have a
lab multimeter with four-wire resistance measurement (as I do), simply
run two wires to each end of the SS resistor. One pair feeds a known
current from the multimeter, and the other pair measures the voltage
across the SS resistor, eliminating the resistance of the test leads
from the equation. (Known current through one pair, but almost zero
current through the other, for measuring the voltage across the
SS resistance.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mon, 05 Feb 2018 21:21:25 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

I had air shocks on the FRONT of my 1996 Ramcharger to keep the plow
frame off the ground. Firestone and a few other manufacturers had
"bags" available backthen as well.

Make that my 1976 Ramcharger ----------

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 11:24:18 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I've heard that power wheelchair batteries may not last very long
because the user charges them only while in bed, so they rarely
reach
full charge.

Huh? Not fully charged after 8-10hrs?

Not with a taper charger, the current automatically decreases as the
voltage rises. That's good to control hydrogen generation and
electrolyte loss but the batteries don't charge as fast as you'd
expect from the charger rating. If you need a full charge quickly you
have to raise the voltage well into the gassing range for a few hours.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...d_acid_battery
https://www.iotaengineering.com/ppli..._Batteries.pdf

An even smarter way is to also monitor and limit the current, relative
to the battery's SOC and Amp-hour capacity. But that's for industry or
submarines, and too much to expect for consumer equipment.

Yeah, precisely tailored chargers for known battery and cell types.


Subs can have battery charging problems too. This is one of several
plausible scenarios for the sinking.
http://www.burtonsys.com/USS_Scorpion.html

Oh, ouch!


My P20L solar controller shows the danger of trying to be Smart with
insufficient information. The wet, AGM and gel battery type selections
have it raising the limit voltage temporarily for a Bulk / Absorption
phase but it doesn't know the battery's capacity or how far it has
discharged, so it overdoes the higher voltage on shallow cycling. I
changed the battery type to Lithium in which it simply limits current
once the battery reaches the programmed Float voltage.

Yeah. It appears that almost none of the battery chargers are very
smart, despite having microcomputers inside.


My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be
recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month
old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable
are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.

There is a flourishing grey market in recycling those things. I
repaired them for a major dealer and stayed away from the unofficial
end to avoid liability and the temptation to divert still-useful
discarded parts to home projects.

Oh, too bad.


At Segway the scrap bins were conveniently next to the lab exit so the
engineers wouldn't have to carry their heavy home-project acquisitions
very far. If an especially juicy artifact became available it was
announced and left in an open space for us to plunder. I got the 3"
diameter guide pins from a fender mold and some thick plate stock.
Whatever steel it is, it machines nicely to a good finish.

Choice!


My backup system could have the same charging problem. I hope a week
or so at partial discharge followed by a full equalizing charge
outdoors after the grid returns won't hurt the batteries much.

It shouldn't, but with _your_ batteries... LOL

That's why I kept a few old ones to test until the HF carbon pile
tester tells me they've degenerated into trade-ins.

The venerable "core" status.


....It's
for unattended discharge capacity testing using the relay to
disconnect the battery at 10.5V, but those tests are time consuming
and way down on my to-do list.

It's hard to stay attentive to long-term monitoring. I tend to set
my
watch for a handful of minutes, then go check, resetting the watch
alarm each time.

I set up the test in a place I walk past while doing other things,
normally the top of the washing machine. The laundry sink is handy in
case I splash acid. I extended my solar panel wiring there for free
long term trickle charging.

Bueno.


What do you make of these: 12 Volts Lead Acid Battery Desulfator
Assembled Kit | eBay https://is.gd/5cBjNg $8 (120Hz pulse)

I haven't looked at pulse desulfators for the practical reason that my
home made variable DC supplies soon show if the sulfated battery is
responding, by the increasing current it will accept. I've learned how
to interpret the voltages and currents the meters show me.

Yeah, that's good.


If you want set-and-forget I don't see why pulse desulfators wouldn't
work. However you won't know the result until your vehicle fails to
start.

Luckily (?) the vast majority of my car batteries had cells go out, so
batteries usually didn't give me much trouble until the day they died.
While that's a bummer for that day, it wasn't causing me to call tow
trucks all over town for weeks, as some people I knew were wont to do.
g


Also the pulse voltage can damage connected electronics if the battery
won't absorb it and pulse desulfators aren't as suited to routinely
topping off the battery in the car, to make up the parasitic drain of
the computer etc. My variable DC chargers can show me if the battery
is starting to sulfate and needs attention, without disconnecting it.
I use old batteries my neighbors have discarded in my garden tractor
and they demand fairly frequent maintenance.

I've never had the patience to put up with cranky batteries.


Whew! I'm glad it's not just that one battery. :-) What does that
4kwh work out to in ah? 166.7? Not a bad set. (Pair of group 27s?)

Group 31s, the same size with more convenient terminals. 24V * 105A-h
is 2.5 KWH, but in practice I get less than 2 KWH. The limit is when
the battery voltage drops to the inverter's low voltage cutoff as the
refrigerator compressor starts. I can still run the laptops and TV for
a while longer.

My 2002 18-cube fridge takes 135w max according to the Kill-a-watt.
What do your fridge, TV, and laptops pull?


Setting the cutoff lower gains me only a few minutes. Once the battery
approaches 11V at light load its impedance increases rapidly.

Which means the voltage drop is even more rapid with any current
drain, yeah.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 13:36:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be
recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month
old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable
are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.

The firms I worked for restored used medical equipment to a condition
Medicare would accept, as long as the customers' paperwork was fully
in order. And that was a major issue for many of the elderly. I know
some fell through the cracks but not why. Just doing my job here,
Ma'am.

I think that has changed now, according to those two instances I saw.
Refurbs were just fine with our folks, who grew up with the Crash. I
think most folks today, other than Millennials, would accept them,
too.


As I've seen in my own affairs the system has little or no flexibility
to accomodate unforeseen exceptions, yet it's easily milked by those
who understand it. The government strives for fairness, economy and
value are completely foreign to Uncle Sugar. At least the industry pay
scale was nice.

But of course.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

On 6 Feb 2018 04:18:59 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2018-02-06, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:48:24 -0500, Clare Snyder

wrote:


Ah dinna know that. What was the actual resistance, or did you
measure it?

How would you measure a very low resistance? It isn't easy.
-jsw

Put a known current through it -- either with a bench power
supply with a current limit adjustment, or an adjustable voltage across
a known resistance in series with the unknown one. In the second case,
measure the voltage across the known resistance to calculate the
current, and measure the voltage drop between the two ends of the SS
resistor using a low voltage digital multimeter. Divide measured
voltage by the current and you have the resistance. (Or, if you have a
lab multimeter with four-wire resistance measurement (as I do), simply
run two wires to each end of the SS resistor. One pair feeds a known
current from the multimeter, and the other pair measures the voltage
across the SS resistor, eliminating the resistance of the test leads
from the equation. (Known current through one pair, but almost zero
current through the other, for measuring the voltage across the
SS resistance.

Enjoy,
DoN.

I calculated, then cut, and then verified by applying a low voltage
and measuring the current - then checking motor current under load
through the resistor to make sure it was limited to close to the
current I desired.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 11:24:18 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Yeah, precisely tailored chargers for known battery and cell types.
...
Yeah. It appears that almost none of the battery chargers are very
smart, despite having microcomputers inside.

When the smart charger is built into the battery it knows the
battery's capacity and can measure its temperature. Consumers often
don't know either.


If you want set-and-forget I don't see why pulse desulfators
wouldn't
work. However you won't know the result until your vehicle fails to
start.

Luckily (?) the vast majority of my car batteries had cells go out,
so
batteries usually didn't give me much trouble until the day they
died.
While that's a bummer for that day, it wasn't causing me to call tow
trucks all over town for weeks, as some people I knew were wont to
do.
g

The HF Carbon Pile seems to indicate a battery's remaining starting
current pretty well. Autozone measured the warm-engine starting
current for me, confirming what I had measured at home. When the truck
finally became hard to start in cold weather the carbon pile showed
the large voltage drop at the starting current value. I used my
chargers and the carbon pile to extend the life of the battery by
several years and knew when to replace it before getting stuck.

I realize that most people don't want to add batteries to the list of
techie stuff they have to fuss with (plumbing etc) but if you do, it
does the trick.


I've never had the patience to put up with cranky batteries.

I neglected batteries until they became my job.


My 2002 18-cube fridge takes 135w max according to the Kill-a-watt.
What do your fridge, TV, and laptops pull?

The fridge starts at 100W and slowly decreases to 80W. The 22"
HDTV/monitor takes ~30W with the backlight at zero, 65W with it at the
default setting. The laptops draw 30W at idle, up to 45W when busy
such as recording a show. They are older, thicker ones with SSD boot
drives plus Terabyte spinning storage for recordings. The power
consumption is low enough to ignore on grid AC even at our $0.19/KWH
rate, but it costs a lot to get from batteries. Although I'm not in
the TEOTWAWKI group I do expect future shortages and brownouts

I've been tossing around the idea of replacing my 1970's fridge with
this. Are chest-type refrigerators practical? I think it's easier to
find and remove something from a crowded cooler than a crowded
refrigerator shelf.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008VX01P2...d_rd_w=pU 4Jp
It doesn't need a separate pure sine inverter because it automatically
switches to DC if grid power fails.

http://ncph.org/history-at-work/reth...-refrigerator/
"But when I hooked my refrigerator up to an electricity meter, I
discovered something surprising. It was drawing only about as much
electricity as a modern-day refrigerator."

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 13:36:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:26 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

My neighbor found out that Medicare won't allow things to be
recycled.
They will fund new items only. 2-month old hospital beds, 6 month
old
3-wheeled electric scooters, etc. which are perfectly serviceable
are
just tossed. That sickens me. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the
saying goes.

The firms I worked for restored used medical equipment to a
condition
Medicare would accept, as long as the customers' paperwork was fully
in order. And that was a major issue for many of the elderly. I know
some fell through the cracks but not why. Just doing my job here,
Ma'am.

I think that has changed now, according to those two instances I
saw.
Refurbs were just fine with our folks, who grew up with the Crash. I
think most folks today, other than Millennials, would accept them,
too.


The government paid big bucks for me to replace the seat, arm rests
and wheel bearings on a wheelchair at a factory-authorized dealership.
I don't know where the guy who sold refurbs out of an old barn
for -much- less got his parts, maybe China?