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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a countrywith 1800 nukes

Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:51:05 -0600, Ignoramus1521
wrote:

Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i

It can boil down to "he who shoots first wins" or "he who blinks
looses"

ONE large nuke could neutralize many countries - but if B hits A 1st,
and A figures there is nothing left to lose, b could be totally
obliterated within hours - wiped right off the map - with a lot of
colateral damage all around. (ie - if NK hits the USA first, and USA
retaliates, SK and half of Asia would be SERIOUSLY affected -
including China and Japan
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:51:05 -0600, Ignoramus1521
wrote:

Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i

To be totally truthfull - NOBODY can win a nuke war in today's
climate - EVERYONE loses as soon as the next nuke is deployed in
anger.
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

"Ignoramus1521" wrote in message
...
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear
conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some
ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


https://www.amazon.com/Thermonuclear.../dp/141280664X

https://www.amazon.com/strategy-tech.../dp/084240015X

http://www.c4i.org/unrestricted.pdf

Japan's Army leadership made a similar judgement in 1941. They soon
discovered that their military couldn't prevent our submarines from
sinking all their shipping and our bombers from burning their cities.
By the end there wasn't much left to nuke.

Like the Norks the Japanese dug in deep and prepared for a long
resistance. My father told me the surviving defenders on Okinawa would
come up from their bunkers to watch and cheer his Air Corps unit's
baseball games. They knew they had lost but were too indoctrinated
with Bushido to surrender.

-n%cw8H


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 00:21:58 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:51:05 -0600, Ignoramus1521
wrote:

Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i

To be totally truthfull - NOBODY can win a nuke war in today's
climate - EVERYONE loses as soon as the next nuke is deployed in
anger.


Bingo.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a countrywith 1800 nukes

On 11/30/2017 9:19 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:51:05 -0600, Ignoramus1521
wrote:

Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i

It can boil down to "he who shoots first wins" or "he who blinks
looses"

ONE large nuke could neutralize many countries - but if B hits A 1st,
and A figures there is nothing left to lose, b could be totally
obliterated within hours - wiped right off the map - with a lot of
colateral damage all around. (ie - if NK hits the USA first, and USA
retaliates, SK and half of Asia would be SERIOUSLY affected -
including China and Japan

And that's why we can't nuke NK...EVER. Best you can do is a surgical
strike against one little prick.
I can't believe it hasn't been done already.
Anything else is the end of the world as we
know it.
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:16:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ignoramus1521" wrote in message
...
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear
conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some
ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


https://www.amazon.com/Thermonuclear.../dp/141280664X


Amazon.com: The Worlds of Herman Kahn: The Intuitive Science of
Thermonuclear War (9780674017146): Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi: Books
https://is.gd/ylDBlw looks interesting, too. Khan sounds like quite
a guy.


https://www.amazon.com/strategy-tech.../dp/084240015X


$896 used? Sucha deal!


http://www.c4i.org/unrestricted.pdf


Downloaded.


Japan's Army leadership made a similar judgement in 1941. They soon
discovered that their military couldn't prevent our submarines from
sinking all their shipping and our bombers from burning their cities.
By the end there wasn't much left to nuke.


Too bad their Emperor didn't make the call earlier. That was one
helluva way to test our two new nuke technologies, but better a couple
hundred thou than a million between both sides. It worked.

I worry that NK or Paki will get too rambunctious and light one off.
One is led by a bipolar child, the other by fundi Islamics. shudder


Like the Norks the Japanese dug in deep and prepared for a long
resistance. My father told me the surviving defenders on Okinawa would
come up from their bunkers to watch and cheer his Air Corps unit's
baseball games. They knew they had lost but were too indoctrinated
with Bushido to surrender.


Amazing.

I found a whole bunch of strategy books available on KU for free and
I'm making my way through them from Sun Tzu and Thucidides forward.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:51:05 -0600, Ignoramus1521
wrote:

Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.


Precisely. This negotiation with NK seems to require the addition of
some 9mm pieces of copper clad lead from one of Poindexter's General's
BaekDuSans rather than a nuke. At least that's my hope.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 00:19:54 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:51:05 -0600, Ignoramus1521
wrote:

Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i

It can boil down to "he who shoots first wins" or "he who blinks
looses"

ONE large nuke could neutralize many countries - but if B hits A 1st,
and A figures there is nothing left to lose, b could be totally
obliterated within hours - wiped right off the map - with a lot of
colateral damage all around. (ie - if NK hits the USA first, and USA
retaliates, SK and half of Asia would be SERIOUSLY affected -
including China and Japan


And that's precisely why we can't use them.

If SK doesn't evacuate Seoul before the ball begins, they'll lose it
to enough NK missiles to take it down to bedrock within minutes of the
party starting. But how good is NK's anti-aircraft?

Will China bomb a mile-wide border at their border to tell NK that
they will not be accepting any refugees? They seriously don't want
any of them. (_smart_ concept, that.)

I'm just starting _America: Imagine a World Without Her_ by Dinesh
D'Souza. HE is the type of immigrant America needs. Brilliant.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

Ignoramus1521 on Thu, 30 Nov 2017
20:51:05 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.


Can a country which is highly dependent on a technical
infrastructure which is in turn dependent on a rather fragile
electrical grid survive an EMP attack?
And can it retaliate against a country which essentially has no
such comparable infrastructure?

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

Clare Snyder wrote:



ONE large nuke could neutralize many countries - but if B hits A 1st,
and A figures there is nothing left to lose, b could be totally
obliterated within hours - wiped right off the map - with a lot of
colateral damage all around. (ie - if NK hits the USA first, and USA
retaliates, SK and half of Asia would be SERIOUSLY affected -
including China and Japan

Yes, ESPECIALLY Japan, as they are downwind from N. Korea. If the US were
to launch a heavy counterstrike at N. Korea, it is hard to know what would
happen. Would that strike so discombobulate their chain of command that
nothing else would be launched? Does the US know a lot about where these
weapons are stored, so that most of those storage sites or the sites they
had pre-planned to launch from would be unavailable? (Good chance we know a
lot more than we let anyone think we know.)

Also, we have anti-missiles that can shoot down ICBMs in the early launch
phase, but we have to have those assets really close to the launch site.
You can bet if the balloon went up, these assets would be moved in really
close, to have a good shot.

I have no doubt whatsoever that if N.K. launched an ICBM at a US territory,
there would be a massive counterstrike that would leave Pyong Yang
obliterated so that an entire 25 mile radius looked like ground zero at
Nagasaki. I'm sure there is a war plan alread loaded into the Minuteman LCC
computers for just this scenario. You think Trump would hesitate to do it?

Jon
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pyotr filipivich wrote:


Can a country which is highly dependent on a technical
infrastructure which is in turn dependent on a rather fragile
electrical grid survive an EMP attack?
And can it retaliate against a country which essentially has no
such comparable infrastructure?

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?

Pyong Yang is NOT stone age, and it seems the rulers there are fine if the
rest of the country IS.

If the US did a major counterstrike on Pyong Yang, it would not be stone
age, it would be totally wiped out.

As for our ability to deliver such a counterstike after an EMP attach, I
think the US has worked REALLY hard to make sure that they could do so.
Certainly, the Trident subs would not be affected, and supposedly they have
standing orders to retaliate if they can determine that the US has been
nuked. The Minuteman missiles and their launch control centers are
underground, so even if their wire-line command network is popped, they
should still be operable. Maybe they don't even use the wire-line stuff
anymore. They have satellite, HF and VLF backup communications. Plus, the
one last scheme is a Minuteman missile with a tape recorder and a VHF
transmitter that can be launched vertically over North Dakota. It can be
fed an Emergency Action Notification from a number of sources including the
"TACAMO" aircraft, and then will broadcast that message to the launch crews
for several hours before falling back to earth.

So, I think an EMP would not take out the command authority to launch a
counterstrike. Now, the REST of the country would be in a MESS! But, these
scenarios of absolutely nothing more sophisticated than a donkey cart being
functional are, I think, way over the top. Certainly, anything with big
antennas or long wires (broadcast stations and the power grid) are going to
go out, and need some level of repair. But, I suspect a lot of cars may
survive, at least partially, and a lot of infrastructure, like trucks and
trains will survive to some extent. (Yes, the entire train signalling
system will be shot, but I think the locomotives will be running or be able
to be gotten running within a couple days.)

Jon
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
pyotr filipivich wrote:


Can a country which is highly dependent on a technical
infrastructure which is in turn dependent on a rather fragile
electrical grid survive an EMP attack?
And can it retaliate against a country which essentially has no
such comparable infrastructure?

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?

Pyong Yang is NOT stone age, and it seems the rulers there are fine
if the
rest of the country IS.

If the US did a major counterstrike on Pyong Yang, it would not be
stone
age, it would be totally wiped out.

As for our ability to deliver such a counterstike after an EMP
attach, I
think the US has worked REALLY hard to make sure that they could do
so.
Certainly, the Trident subs would not be affected, and supposedly
they have
standing orders to retaliate if they can determine that the US has
been
nuked. The Minuteman missiles and their launch control centers are
underground, so even if their wire-line command network is popped,
they
should still be operable. Maybe they don't even use the wire-line
stuff
anymore. They have satellite, HF and VLF backup communications.
Plus, the
one last scheme is a Minuteman missile with a tape recorder and a
VHF
transmitter that can be launched vertically over North Dakota. It
can be
fed an Emergency Action Notification from a number of sources
including the
"TACAMO" aircraft, and then will broadcast that message to the
launch crews
for several hours before falling back to earth.

So, I think an EMP would not take out the command authority to
launch a
counterstrike. Now, the REST of the country would be in a MESS!
But, these
scenarios of absolutely nothing more sophisticated than a donkey
cart being
functional are, I think, way over the top. Certainly, anything with
big
antennas or long wires (broadcast stations and the power grid) are
going to
go out, and need some level of repair. But, I suspect a lot of cars
may
survive, at least partially, and a lot of infrastructure, like
trucks and
trains will survive to some extent. (Yes, the entire train
signalling
system will be shot, but I think the locomotives will be running or
be able
to be gotten running within a couple days.)

Jon


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
"The Starfish Prime electromagnetic pulse also made those effects
known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about
1,445 kilometres (898 mi) away from the detonation point, knocking out
about 300 streetlights, setting off numerous burglar alarms and
damaging a telephone company microwave link."


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:50:19 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

pyotr filipivich wrote:


Can a country which is highly dependent on a technical
infrastructure which is in turn dependent on a rather fragile
electrical grid survive an EMP attack?
And can it retaliate against a country which essentially has no
such comparable infrastructure?


Nukes against EMPs would win every time, except if it happens,
everyone loses. Subs would be safe, and each sub (US, Britain,
Russia, France, and India) could take out half the world, so a single
country would be no large task.


How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?


With traditional carpet bombing.


Pyong Yang is NOT stone age, and it seems the rulers there are fine if the
rest of the country IS.


Right, and ditto for most of the Middle East, China, India, and
others.


If the US did a major counterstrike on Pyong Yang, it would not be stone
age, it would be totally wiped out.

As for our ability to deliver such a counterstike after an EMP attach, I
think the US has worked REALLY hard to make sure that they could do so.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtgklHQ52WE . 4 small nukes launched
from ships stationed at the corners of the US (ME, FL, WA, CA, or
maybe one larger one from the west side of TX toward OK) would takes
us down without any chance of being intercepted in time.

A week or two later, 50M-100M could be dead. Some would die from
accidents at the time of EMP delivery, others to panic, other to gang
violence, others to YOU HAVE/I WANT murders by otherwise normal
people, others to fried medical implants, etc. As soon as food runs
out, the killing begins in earnest.

It also might kick off Gunner's Great Cull.


Certainly, the Trident subs would not be affected, and supposedly they have
standing orders to retaliate if they can determine that the US has been
nuked. The Minuteman missiles and their launch control centers are
underground, so even if their wire-line command network is popped, they
should still be operable. Maybe they don't even use the wire-line stuff
anymore. They have satellite, HF and VLF backup communications. Plus, the
one last scheme is a Minuteman missile with a tape recorder and a VHF
transmitter that can be launched vertically over North Dakota. It can be
fed an Emergency Action Notification from a number of sources including the
"TACAMO" aircraft, and then will broadcast that message to the launch crews
for several hours before falling back to earth.


Yes, those and undersea ULF transmitters. The EMPs would probably
knock out many satellites, too, with no safe re-entry vectors.


So, I think an EMP would not take out the command authority to launch a
counterstrike. Now, the REST of the country would be in a MESS! But, these
scenarios of absolutely nothing more sophisticated than a donkey cart being
functional are, I think, way over the top. Certainly, anything with big
antennas or long wires (broadcast stations and the power grid) are going to
go out, and need some level of repair.


Everything plugged in will fry. Computers, TVs, microwaves, ranges,
stoves, fridges, washers, dryers, pumps, light bulbs, transformers,
many power lines. Many vehicles, especially pre-EFI and
pre-electronic ignition would likely run, maybe even more.

Major transformers would be unable to be rebuilt/built since they
require massive power to run the industries producing them.
Pretty much everything which hasn't been hardened by the military,
like 1/4 of their bases and most of their vehicles, would fry.


But, I suspect a lot of cars may
survive, at least partially, and a lot of infrastructure, like trucks and
trains will survive to some extent. (Yes, the entire train signalling
system will be shot, but I think the locomotives will be running or be able
to be gotten running within a couple days.)


The problem is that most of our systems are JIT, meaning that if the
31 trucks don't restock the Walmart within 3 days, it will be bare of
food.

It's always best to determine the WCS, then hope for a lesser
scenario. I'm wondering if an EMP will dust my solar panels and
batteries, but I have replacement switches and controllers.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

On 2017-12-01, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Japan's Army leadership made a similar judgement in 1941. They soon
discovered that their military couldn't prevent our submarines from
sinking all their shipping and our bombers from burning their cities.
By the end there wasn't much left to nuke.

Like the Norks the Japanese dug in deep and prepared for a long
resistance. My father told me the surviving defenders on Okinawa would
come up from their bunkers to watch and cheer his Air Corps unit's
baseball games. They knew they had lost but were too indoctrinated
with Bushido to surrender.


World War II was different because there was no nuclear weapons (until
the end). Nuclear weapons actually did what I was alluding to,
specifically, raising the level of pain for Japan so much as to force
immediate surrender.

Now there are nuclear weapons and North Korea can inflict pain on USA
remotely, outside of the theater of operations.

If NK's arsenal and operational control is survivable, and half way
accurate, then NK can win the war by inflicting too much pain on the
US (nuking several cities) and forcing it to surrender, despite our
obvious military superiority.

The question facing our decision makers, may come to "we lost Chicago
and Houston, is it worth it to continue destroying North Korea".

It may sound crazy, but it is not. North Korea can lose 80% of its
population, but force the US to surrender, pay reparations, and so on,
in case IF it is able to inflict unbearable pain on us.

Now if the US actually loses that war, the terms of surrender will be
atrocious, and it will not be an honorable surrender.

I am surprised that these quite simple issues are not even discussed
publicly, even though it could easily come to just this scenario.

i


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

"Ignoramus7946" wrote in message
...
On 2017-12-01, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Japan's Army leadership made a similar judgement in 1941. They soon
discovered that their military couldn't prevent our submarines from
sinking all their shipping and our bombers from burning their
cities.
By the end there wasn't much left to nuke.

Like the Norks the Japanese dug in deep and prepared for a long
resistance. My father told me the surviving defenders on Okinawa
would
come up from their bunkers to watch and cheer his Air Corps unit's
baseball games. They knew they had lost but were too indoctrinated
with Bushido to surrender.


World War II was different because there was no nuclear weapons
(until
the end). Nuclear weapons actually did what I was alluding to,
specifically, raising the level of pain for Japan so much as to
force
immediate surrender.

Now there are nuclear weapons and North Korea can inflict pain on
USA
remotely, outside of the theater of operations.

If NK's arsenal and operational control is survivable, and half way
accurate, then NK can win the war by inflicting too much pain on the
US (nuking several cities) and forcing it to surrender, despite our
obvious military superiority.

The question facing our decision makers, may come to "we lost
Chicago
and Houston, is it worth it to continue destroying North Korea".

It may sound crazy, but it is not. North Korea can lose 80% of its
population, but force the US to surrender, pay reparations, and so
on,
in case IF it is able to inflict unbearable pain on us.

Now if the US actually loses that war, the terms of surrender will
be
atrocious, and it will not be an honorable surrender.

I am surprised that these quite simple issues are not even discussed
publicly, even though it could easily come to just this scenario.

i


Those who know something can't discuss it. Did you know anything about
the Voenno-Kosmicheski Sily?



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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:03:34 -0600, Ignoramus7946
wrote:

On 2017-12-01, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Japan's Army leadership made a similar judgement in 1941. They soon
discovered that their military couldn't prevent our submarines from
sinking all their shipping and our bombers from burning their cities.
By the end there wasn't much left to nuke.

Like the Norks the Japanese dug in deep and prepared for a long
resistance. My father told me the surviving defenders on Okinawa would
come up from their bunkers to watch and cheer his Air Corps unit's
baseball games. They knew they had lost but were too indoctrinated
with Bushido to surrender.


World War II was different because there was no nuclear weapons (until
the end). Nuclear weapons actually did what I was alluding to,
specifically, raising the level of pain for Japan so much as to force
immediate surrender.

Now there are nuclear weapons and North Korea can inflict pain on USA
remotely, outside of the theater of operations.

If NK's arsenal and operational control is survivable, and half way
accurate, then NK can win the war by inflicting too much pain on the
US (nuking several cities) and forcing it to surrender, despite our
obvious military superiority.

The question facing our decision makers, may come to "we lost Chicago
and Houston, is it worth it to continue destroying North Korea".

It may sound crazy, but it is not. North Korea can lose 80% of its
population, but force the US to surrender, pay reparations, and so on,
in case IF it is able to inflict unbearable pain on us.

Now if the US actually loses that war, the terms of surrender will be
atrocious, and it will not be an honorable surrender.

I am surprised that these quite simple issues are not even discussed
publicly, even though it could easily come to just this scenario.

i


Along those lines there was an interview with Ho Chi Minh published in
a French magazine, very early in the war, in which the interviewer
asked Ho whether he thought that N. Vietnam could win a war with the
"greatest industrial power in the world". Ho replied that of course
they couldn't win the war but they could prolong it until politically
the U.S. would not be able to continue.

But, on the other hand, the Germans almost literally destroyed
Stalingrad in 1942 and the Russians continued to fight for three more
years.
--
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John B.

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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:03:34 -0600, Ignoramus7946
wrote:

On 2017-12-01, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Japan's Army leadership made a similar judgement in 1941. They soon
discovered that their military couldn't prevent our submarines from
sinking all their shipping and our bombers from burning their cities.
By the end there wasn't much left to nuke.

Like the Norks the Japanese dug in deep and prepared for a long
resistance. My father told me the surviving defenders on Okinawa would
come up from their bunkers to watch and cheer his Air Corps unit's
baseball games. They knew they had lost but were too indoctrinated
with Bushido to surrender.


World War II was different because there was no nuclear weapons (until
the end). Nuclear weapons actually did what I was alluding to,
specifically, raising the level of pain for Japan so much as to force
immediate surrender.

Now there are nuclear weapons and North Korea can inflict pain on USA
remotely, outside of the theater of operations.

If NK's arsenal and operational control is survivable, and half way
accurate, then NK can win the war by inflicting too much pain on the
US (nuking several cities) and forcing it to surrender, despite our
obvious military superiority.

The question facing our decision makers, may come to "we lost Chicago
and Houston, is it worth it to continue destroying North Korea".


WHAT? If we lost two cities, SK would be an island shortly
thereafter, whether China liked it or not. Talk about waking sleeping
giants...


It may sound crazy, but it is not. North Korea can lose 80% of its
population, but force the US to surrender, pay reparations, and so on,
in case IF it is able to inflict unbearable pain on us.


No, it cannot. Our military and our people do not know the word
"unbearable".


Now if the US actually loses that war, the terms of surrender will be
atrocious, and it will not be an honorable surrender.

I am surprised that these quite simple issues are not even discussed
publicly, even though it could easily come to just this scenario.


Evidently, we think totally differently than you, Ig. The USA cannot
lose to Korea, even if it lost =eighteen= cities to NK nukes. As soon
as a single hit was scored on a US city, Trump would be on the horn to
neighboring countries telling them to move their populations away from
the border which would be glowing sand from the 40th to the 45th
latitude and the 125th to the 128th longitude. Or possibly just hot
from several hundred neutron bombs. He might even use tactical nukes
to blow down any further launches if he saw a trajectory for the
mainland USA.

This is no longer a game, Ig. He'd have to make most of the million+
NK troops go away before landing anyone, depending on what he'd used
to bomb them. This is for all the marbles, since for the US to lose
yet another war would be curtains for any power we maintain in the
world today. For the world's sake, we can't lose.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

On 2017-12-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus7946" wrote in message
...
On 2017-12-01, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Japan's Army leadership made a similar judgement in 1941. They soon
discovered that their military couldn't prevent our submarines from
sinking all their shipping and our bombers from burning their
cities.
By the end there wasn't much left to nuke.

Like the Norks the Japanese dug in deep and prepared for a long
resistance. My father told me the surviving defenders on Okinawa
would
come up from their bunkers to watch and cheer his Air Corps unit's
baseball games. They knew they had lost but were too indoctrinated
with Bushido to surrender.


World War II was different because there was no nuclear weapons
(until
the end). Nuclear weapons actually did what I was alluding to,
specifically, raising the level of pain for Japan so much as to
force
immediate surrender.

Now there are nuclear weapons and North Korea can inflict pain on
USA
remotely, outside of the theater of operations.

If NK's arsenal and operational control is survivable, and half way
accurate, then NK can win the war by inflicting too much pain on the
US (nuking several cities) and forcing it to surrender, despite our
obvious military superiority.

The question facing our decision makers, may come to "we lost
Chicago
and Houston, is it worth it to continue destroying North Korea".

It may sound crazy, but it is not. North Korea can lose 80% of its
population, but force the US to surrender, pay reparations, and so
on,
in case IF it is able to inflict unbearable pain on us.

Now if the US actually loses that war, the terms of surrender will
be
atrocious, and it will not be an honorable surrender.

I am surprised that these quite simple issues are not even discussed
publicly, even though it could easily come to just this scenario.

i


Those who know something can't discuss it.



Did you know anything about the Voenno-Kosmicheski Sily?


I know a little bit, yes, I read a fair amount of stuff about nuclear
weapons. And Russia news, as you might have guessed. But nothing
beyond what you would get from reading the Internet.

i
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:08:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


A week or two later, 50M-100M could be dead. Some would die from
accidents at the time of EMP delivery, others to panic, other to gang
violence, others to YOU HAVE/I WANT murders by otherwise normal
people, others to fried medical implants, etc. As soon as food runs
out, the killing begins in earnest.

It also might kick off Gunner's Great Cull.


Oh most definitely. Once the cage door is kicked open..the lions and
bears will come out and eat the Left, down to the roots.

They will have proven themselves as the cause of another country
being able to cause so much damage to the US and as such...would be
eradicated. Unfortunately...most of the useful ones like scientists
and so forth would likely die with the masses of regular mentally ill
Democrats.

Unless they can get out of reach of the lumpenproletariat

Hope they have made plans for such. However...no matter how smart the
leftwing boffin is...its unlikely he/she/it would have ever considered
themselves a viable physical target.

Hence...during the Month of Rage...they will likely die.

The Great Cull would be a much..much more precise and surgical
operation.


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:08:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

But, I suspect a lot of cars may
survive, at least partially, and a lot of infrastructure, like trucks and
trains will survive to some extent. (Yes, the entire train signalling
system will be shot, but I think the locomotives will be running or be able
to be gotten running within a couple days.)


The problem is that most of our systems are JIT, meaning that if the
31 trucks don't restock the Walmart within 3 days, it will be bare of
food.

It's always best to determine the WCS, then hope for a lesser
scenario. I'm wondering if an EMP will dust my solar panels and
batteries, but I have replacement switches and controllers.


Probably...probably not the solar panels, definately not the
batteries. However...your spare controllers are kept in closed metal
containers...right?


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:03:34 -0600, Ignoramus7946
wrote:

If NK's arsenal and operational control is survivable, and half way
accurate, then NK can win the war by inflicting too much pain on the
US (nuking several cities) and forcing it to surrender, despite our
obvious military superiority.


Forcing it to surrender? That my friend..will never happen. At the
best..it will cause the US to carpet bomb NK down to bedrock. At
worst...it will result in bio weapons being used in NK...and the
people therein..will rot as they breath their last slobbering breaths,
nearly overcome with the dust raised by the carpet bombing of every
building in their land.


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521 wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


I think that if country B used any or all of its 18 nukes, it would be bombed out of existence. If any of B's weapons managed to survive, they would be useless as there would be no one to launch them.

The U.S. and Russia at one time had enough nuclear weapons to put the top 1 inch of soil of the entire world into space

Dan




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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

On 12/4/2017 1:34 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:08:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


A week or two later, 50M-100M could be dead. Some would die from
accidents at the time of EMP delivery, others to panic, other to gang
violence, others to YOU HAVE/I WANT murders by otherwise normal
people, others to fried medical implants, etc. As soon as food runs
out, the killing begins in earnest.

It also might kick off Gunner's Great Cull.


Oh most definitely.


No "cull". This is settled.
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 01:34:05 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:08:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


A week or two later, 50M-100M could be dead. Some would die from
accidents at the time of EMP delivery, others to panic, other to gang
violence, others to YOU HAVE/I WANT murders by otherwise normal
people, others to fried medical implants, etc. As soon as food runs
out, the killing begins in earnest.

It also might kick off Gunner's Great Cull.


Oh most definitely. Once the cage door is kicked open..the lions and
bears will come out and eat the Left, down to the roots.

They will have proven themselves as the cause of another country
being able to cause so much damage to the US and as such...would be
eradicated. Unfortunately...most of the useful ones like scientists
and so forth would likely die with the masses of regular mentally ill
Democrats.

Unless they can get out of reach of the lumpenproletariat

Hope they have made plans for such. However...no matter how smart the
leftwing boffin is...its unlikely he/she/it would have ever considered
themselves a viable physical target.

Hence...during the Month of Rage...they will likely die.

The Great Cull would be a much..much more precise and surgical
operation.


Probably the greatest argument against the possibility of The Great
Cull is the people that seem to appear to believe in it. In this case
an impoverished and broken down old man that can't manage his own
life.

Gunner can't even manage to pay his taxes never mind manage a "precise
and surgical" nation wide project to murder millions of people.

Of course Gunner denies any active part in The Great Cull but stop and
think about it for a moment. Would anyone who is smart and wealthy
enough, and don't think for a moment that The Great Cull would not
cost millions, is going to befriend a down and out bum like Gunner and
tell him all the secrets of The Great Cull so that he can blab them
all over the Internet?

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On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 08:28:14 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521 wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


I think that if country B used any or all of its 18 nukes, it would be bombed out of existence. If any of B's weapons managed to survive, they would be useless as there would be no one to launch them.

The U.S. and Russia at one time had enough nuclear weapons to put the top 1 inch of soil of the entire world into space

Dan



I agree. Whatever damage "B" could inflict on "A" there's no chance
that "A" is not going to respond severely.

"B" has has a number of problems that are not exposed in the
over-simplified scenario.

I can't see "A" surrendering as long as they still have a competent
capacity to remove "B" from the map.

Ending "B's" existence won't end the enormous "pain" that was inflicted
on "A"; but then neither does surrendering to "B" end "A's" pain.

I would be more concerned about what the sudden destabilation that "A's
capituation would cause on the world scene. If "A" did surrender to
"B", then at best: the rest of the free world falls with "A".

Worst case? "A" not only lost the war with "B", but suffered even more
from a second war over who would control the world in "A's" absence.
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Ignoramus1521 on Thu, 30 Nov 2017
20:51:05 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.


Can a country which is highly dependent on a technical
infrastructure which is in turn dependent on a rather fragile
electrical grid survive an EMP attack?
And can it retaliate against a country which essentially has no
such comparable infrastructure?

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?


Drop some food on them. They'll change tunes real fast.
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On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:16:29 -0800, Tavonnie R Webber
wrote:

On 12/4/2017 1:34 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:08:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


A week or two later, 50M-100M could be dead. Some would die from
accidents at the time of EMP delivery, others to panic, other to gang
violence, others to YOU HAVE/I WANT murders by otherwise normal
people, others to fried medical implants, etc. As soon as food runs
out, the killing begins in earnest.

It also might kick off Gunner's Great Cull.


Oh most definitely.


No "cull". This is settled.


Oh, yeah. Libs have been ever-so-sweet to everyone lately. Sure.

--
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

On 12/5/2017 5:01 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:16:29 -0800, Tavonnie R Webber
wrote:

On 12/4/2017 1:34 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:08:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


A week or two later, 50M-100M could be dead. Some would die from
accidents at the time of EMP delivery, others to panic, other to gang
violence, others to YOU HAVE/I WANT murders by otherwise normal
people, others to fried medical implants, etc. As soon as food runs
out, the killing begins in earnest.

It also might kick off Gunner's Great Cull.

Oh most definitely.


No "cull". This is settled.


Oh, yeah. Libs have been ever-so-sweet to everyone lately. Sure.


You can't define "liberal" any better than any other right-wingnut
knuckle-dragger who can't define it. It's just a swearword to you.
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 10:51:02 -0800, Bill Spradlin
wrote:

On 12/5/2017 5:01 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:16:29 -0800, Tavonnie R Webber
wrote:

On 12/4/2017 1:34 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:08:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


A week or two later, 50M-100M could be dead. Some would die from
accidents at the time of EMP delivery, others to panic, other to gang
violence, others to YOU HAVE/I WANT murders by otherwise normal
people, others to fried medical implants, etc. As soon as food runs
out, the killing begins in earnest.

It also might kick off Gunner's Great Cull.

Oh most definitely.

No "cull". This is settled.


Oh, yeah. Libs have been ever-so-sweet to everyone lately. Sure.


You can't define "liberal" any better than any other right-wingnut
knuckle-dragger who can't define it. It's just a swearword to you.


So funny Comrade...ROFLMAO!!!

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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521 wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


Paraphrasing an example given by Carl Sagan: The leader of Country A and the leader of Country B are standing in a room, knee-deep in gasoline. Leader A has 1800 books of matches. Leader B has 18 books of matches. Now, describe a scenario that comes out good for either of them.
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:00:17 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521 wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


Paraphrasing an example given by Carl Sagan: The leader of Country A and the leader of Country B are standing in a room, knee-deep in gasoline. Leader A has 1800 books of matches. Leader B has 18 books of matches. Now, describe a scenario that comes out good for either of them.

V


Very carefully back away being carefull not to draw a spark and hope
the other ******* doesn't light a match before you get out - and a
long way away!!!
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:00:17 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521 wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


Paraphrasing an example given by Carl Sagan: The leader of Country A and the leader of Country B are standing in a room, knee-deep in gasoline. Leader A has 1800 books of matches. Leader B has 18 books of matches. Now, describe a scenario that comes out good for either of them.



You are describing MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) described as " a
doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a
full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two or more opposing sides would
cause the complete annihilation of both the attacker and the defender.

In the case above numbers of matchbooks is probably immaterial.
--
Cheers,

John B.

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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 9:00:22 PM UTC-5, rangerssuck wrote:
On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521 wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


Paraphrasing an example given by Carl Sagan: The leader of Country A and the leader of Country B are standing in a room, knee-deep in gasoline. Leader A has 1800 books of matches. Leader B has 18 books of matches. Now, describe a scenario that comes out good for either of them.


So, that example was pretty extreme, but not far from reality. Here's another, describing an entirely different type of fight. This was a scene in an episode of MASH, when Colonel Potter was explaining to Hawkeye why he had to fire his sidearm (while they were both a little drunk and pinned down in a roadside ditch:

"First they shoot. Then we shoot. Then they shoot. Then we shoot. Whoever shoots last, wins."
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:48:17 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:00:17 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521 wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus, nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i


Paraphrasing an example given by Carl Sagan: The leader of Country A and the leader of Country B are standing in a room, knee-deep in gasoline. Leader A has 1800 books of matches. Leader B has 18 books of matches. Now, describe a scenario that comes out good for either of them.

V


Very carefully back away being carefull not to draw a spark and hope
the other ******* doesn't light a match before you get out - and a
long way away!!!


Or, A walks toward B, feigning concession, with his right hand out.
Unbeknownst to B, A also picks up a long screwdriver off the bench as
he approaches. Evil B is then flushed from the world, easing world
tension immediately. His kind of evil has to be snuffed out before it
spreads.

Unfortunately, A is forced to continue to play World Cop for both his
own country's and the world's sake, like it or not.

The rest of us live happily ever after, -if- the other evil, Party D
in A's country, doesn't take them down internally in the interim, as
they are trying. I'm reading Dinesh D'Souza's _America: Imagine A
World Without Her_, where he brings up even more dirt on the evil
Dems. He's a former White House analyst, and his deep research has
permitted him to show to us a lot of connections we might otherwise
overlook, or pay lesser attention to. Highly recommended book.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:48:17 -0500, Clare Snyder

wrote:

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:00:17 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:51:12 PM UTC-5, Ignoramus1521
wrote:
Let's say that country A has 1,800 nuclear weapons.

And let's say that country B has 18 nuclear weapons that can
reach
country A with 1 square mile accuracy.

And further let's suppose that these two countries are in a
nuclear conflict.

Is it possible that country B could "win a nuclear war" and force
country A to end the war on highly unfavorable terms, despite
having
only 1% of A's nuclear arsenal?

The real answer is that it is entirely possible, if country B's
arsenal is survivable (hard to find and well defended) and
country B
can take more pain than country A.

What this brings up is a realization that nuclear war is in some
ways
similar to a negotiation, rather than straight war like most
conventional war. The reason for this is a unique ability of
nuclear
weapons to deliver a lot of pain over a long distance. Thus,
nuclear
weapons can hurt countries directly, as opposed to conventional
weapons, which have to first work against their militaries.

i

Paraphrasing an example given by Carl Sagan: The leader of Country
A and the leader of Country B are standing in a room, knee-deep in
gasoline. Leader A has 1800 books of matches. Leader B has 18 books
of matches. Now, describe a scenario that comes out good for either
of them.

V


Very carefully back away being carefull not to draw a spark and hope
the other ******* doesn't light a match before you get out - and a
long way away!!!


Or, A walks toward B, feigning concession, with his right hand out.
Unbeknownst to B, A also picks up a long screwdriver off the bench
as
he approaches. Evil B is then flushed from the world, easing world
tension immediately. His kind of evil has to be snuffed out before
it
spreads.

Unfortunately, A is forced to continue to play World Cop for both
his
own country's and the world's sake, like it or not.

The rest of us live happily ever after, -if- the other evil, Party D
in A's country, doesn't take them down internally in the interim, as
they are trying. I'm reading Dinesh D'Souza's _America: Imagine A
World Without Her_, where he brings up even more dirt on the evil
Dems. He's a former White House analyst, and his deep research has
permitted him to show to us a lot of connections we might otherwise
overlook, or pay lesser attention to. Highly recommended book.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti


You don't have to imagine a world without American power, just study
world history before 1945.


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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

Larry Jaques on Fri, 01 Dec 2017
17:08:53 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?


With traditional carpet bombing.


Which will do what? Bomb them further back in the stone age?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against acountry with 1800 nukes

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Larry Jaques on Fri, 01 Dec 2017
17:08:53 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?


With traditional carpet bombing.


Which will do what? Bomb them further back in the stone age?



Into radioactive amoebas. ;-)

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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a countrywith 1800 nukes

On 12/7/2017 3:25 PM, Michael A Terrell wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
Larry Jaques on Fri, 01 Dec 2017
17:08:53 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?

With traditional carpet bombing.


Which will do what? Bomb them further back in the stone age?



Into radioactive amoebas. ;-)

Nobody wins a nuclear war.
Everybody loses...even those who choose not to participate.
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Default OT Can a country with 18 nukes win a nuclear war against a country with 1800 nukes

Michael A Terrell on Thu, 7 Dec 2017
18:25:03 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
Larry Jaques on Fri, 01 Dec 2017
17:08:53 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

How do you bomb back to the stone age, a society which for most
intents is already there?

With traditional carpet bombing.


Which will do what? Bomb them further back in the stone age?


Into radioactive amoebas. ;-)


Traditional carpet bombing will do that?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
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