On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:39:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:53:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress

William Pentland is a professional agitator.
https://muckrack.com/william-pentland/articles?page=3


Does that mean you disagree that distribution is the problem?

--
Ed Huntress

The storm blew down trees that broke power lines and poles, so in that
sense distribution was a problem. The bucket trucks have a safe wind
limit of 35(??) MPH which the last storm exceeded all the next day,
delaying restoration. The news said a crew could install two poles per
day. One of their anchors took Pole Climbing 101 and demonstrated that
he already has the right job.

A crew had just trimmed the trees near the lines here a week before
but they don't touch trees on private property that are further back.
I did ask.
https://www.eversource.com/Content/g.../tree-trimming

Eversource serves NH, MA and CT but not Maine, so I know nothing of
conditions there. Eversource brings in crews from all over the
Northeast and some from Canada to repair damage quickly, and loans
crews out for their problems. I think I've seen a truck from Ohio.
Smaller independents are slower to restore power.

Eversource has crews on standby for another windstorm tonight.

-jsw


Somehow I thought you lived in Maine. Is it NH?

--
Ed Huntress

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 7:21:23 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:


But still, it seems to me that there could be (at the cost of a few
bucks each) a transponder in, say, each transformer that would let
them know it's got power. Much easier than driving around with a
flashlight to look at the poles & wires.
=======================

The easiest and cheapest solution is to see who calls to complain.

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:29:44 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell
wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?

I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time
Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a
disappointingly short time.



Do you have any idea how much power it takes to run a CATV
distribution system? Those pole mounted power transformers are a
60V,
30A modified square wave from a Constant Voltage Transformer.

That is 1800 VA, continuous, and typically powers about a half
mile
of CATV system. How much do you want to be added to your bill, to
extend
that three hour design?

Go to your local phone company's central office. Take a look at their
backup power and then tell me how I get dial tone for $11/month and
it's got enough batteries to last until doomsday, and enough generator
& fuel to last till the coming of the messiah.

========================

I built a test load for a 48V 1000A central office battery charger, to
replace an old wood-framed one that had burned up. I didn't tie down
all the 4/0 welding cables for the initial test and when we switched
it on the suddenly magnetized cables slamming into the metal frame
sounded like lightning had hit the building.
-jsw

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:39:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:53:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress

William Pentland is a professional agitator.
https://muckrack.com/william-pentland/articles?page=3


Does that mean you disagree that distribution is the problem?

--
Ed Huntress

The storm blew down trees that broke power lines and poles, so in
that
sense distribution was a problem. The bucket trucks have a safe wind
limit of 35(??) MPH which the last storm exceeded all the next day,
delaying restoration. The news said a crew could install two poles
per
day. One of their anchors took Pole Climbing 101 and demonstrated
that
he already has the right job.

A crew had just trimmed the trees near the lines here a week before
but they don't touch trees on private property that are further
back.
I did ask.
https://www.eversource.com/Content/g.../tree-trimming

Eversource serves NH, MA and CT but not Maine, so I know nothing of
conditions there. Eversource brings in crews from all over the
Northeast and some from Canada to repair damage quickly, and loans
crews out for their problems. I think I've seen a truck from Ohio.
Smaller independents are slower to restore power.

Eversource has crews on standby for another windstorm tonight.

-jsw


Somehow I thought you lived in Maine. Is it NH?

--
Ed Huntress

Ned Simmons lives in Maine, I'm in NH. I grew up in Exeter and
bicycled as far as Greenland.
-jsw

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 19:33:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:39:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:53:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
om...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress

William Pentland is a professional agitator.
https://muckrack.com/william-pentland/articles?page=3


Does that mean you disagree that distribution is the problem?

--
Ed Huntress

The storm blew down trees that broke power lines and poles, so in
that
sense distribution was a problem. The bucket trucks have a safe wind
limit of 35(??) MPH which the last storm exceeded all the next day,
delaying restoration. The news said a crew could install two poles
per
day. One of their anchors took Pole Climbing 101 and demonstrated
that
he already has the right job.

A crew had just trimmed the trees near the lines here a week before
but they don't touch trees on private property that are further
back.
I did ask.
https://www.eversource.com/Content/g.../tree-trimming

Eversource serves NH, MA and CT but not Maine, so I know nothing of
conditions there. Eversource brings in crews from all over the
Northeast and some from Canada to repair damage quickly, and loans
crews out for their problems. I think I've seen a truck from Ohio.
Smaller independents are slower to restore power.

Eversource has crews on standby for another windstorm tonight.

-jsw


Somehow I thought you lived in Maine. Is it NH?

--
Ed Huntress

Ned Simmons lives in Maine, I'm in NH. I grew up in Exeter and
bicycled as far as Greenland.
-jsw

Aha. Now I remember. The memory is the second thing to go. d8-)

I guess we talked about Greenland, which is where my family is from,
since around 1675 or 1680.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 19:33:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Aha. Now I remember. The memory is the second thing to go. d8-)


Straight man: "What's the first?"

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 19:44:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 19:33:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Aha. Now I remember. The memory is the second thing to go. d8-)


Straight man: "What's the first?"

I used to know, but I forgot...

--
Ed Huntress

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Michael A Terrell" wrote in message
...
rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?

I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time
Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a
disappointingly short time.



Do you have any idea how much power it takes to run a CATV
distribution system? Those pole mounted power transformers are a
60V, 30A modified square wave from a Constant Voltage Transformer.

That is 1800 VA, continuous, and typically powers about a half
mile of CATV system. How much do you want to be added to your bill,
to extend that three hour design?

It takes that much power to deliver 0dBmV to each house?


Simple, 12 ch one way analog systems are extinct. Today they carry
digital TV, and internet. Both are bidirectional. They also monitor
system status with the return channels. A weak, or missing sgnal at an
EOL testpoint will ntify the headend faster than a customer can find the
right phone number, and has more useful data.

Here is a quick shot of the levels Involved in my DOCIS 3.0 modem. I
don't have a modern FSM for the QAM256 bit video used for digital TV

Downstream Bonding Channel Value
Channel ID 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Frequency 681000000 Hz 687000000 Hz 693000000 Hz 699000000 Hz
705000000 Hz 711000000 Hz 717000000 Hz 723000000 Hz
Signal to Noise Ratio 37 dB 36 dB 36 dB 36 dB 37 dB 37 dB 38 dB
38 dB
Downstream Modulation QAM256 QAM256 QAM256 QAM256 QAM256 QAM256
QAM256 QAM256
Power Level
The Downstream Power Level reading is a snapshot taken at the time this
page was requested. Please Reload/Refresh this Page for a new reading
0 dBmV -1 dBmV -1 dBmV -1 dBmV -1 dBmV 0 dBmV 0 dBmV 1 dBmV

Upstream Bonding Channel Value
Channel ID 3 1 2 4
Frequency 30200000 Hz 17400000 Hz 23800000 Hz 36600000 Hz
Ranging Service ID 7992 7992 7992 7992
Symbol Rate 5.120 Msym/sec 5.120 Msym/sec 2.560 Msym/sec 5.120 Msym/sec
Power Level 41 dBmV 41 dBmV 38 dBmV 40 dBmV
Upstream Modulation [4] 16QAM
[2] 64QAM
[4] 16QAM
[2] 64QAM
[3] QPSK
[3] 16QAM
[2] 64QAM
[4] 16QAM
[2] 64QAM

Ranging Status Success Success Success Success

Signal Stats (Codewords) Bonding Channel Value
Channel ID 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Total Unerrored Codewords 29160951386 29160125781 29160129343
29160128668 29160098379 29160057034 29159825336 29159451723
Total Correctable Codewords 3106 2757 6792 13887 20869 51354
113548 165190
Total Uncorrectable Codewords 4952 1906 2551 4315 3557 15497
186133 509452

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:53:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress

William Pentland is a professional agitator.
https://muckrack.com/william-pentland/articles?page=3


Does that mean you disagree that distribution is the problem?

--
Ed Huntress

The storm blew down trees that broke power lines and poles, so in that
sense distribution was a problem. The bucket trucks have a safe wind
limit of 35(??) MPH which the last storm exceeded all the next day,
delaying restoration. The news said a crew could install two poles per
day. One of their anchors took Pole Climbing 101 and demonstrated that
he already has the right job.

A crew had just trimmed the trees near the lines here a week before
but they don't touch trees on private property that are further back.
I did ask.
https://www.eversource.com/Content/g.../tree-trimming

Eversource serves NH, MA and CT but not Maine, so I know nothing of
conditions there. Eversource brings in crews from all over the
Northeast and some from Canada to repair damage quickly, and loans
crews out for their problems. I think I've seen a truck from Ohio.
Smaller independents are slower to restore power.



The crew that restored my power (N. Central Florida) after Irma were
form where I had lived in Ohio. I talked with them for about ten minutes
while they ordered a new 40' pressure treated power pole, and discussed
what had changed in the last 30 years.

They were stunned to learn that I had managed to get their company's
authorization to pole mount a NEMA cabinet with a single 'Heterodyne
Signal Processor' to interconnect the community loops of two different
CATV companies. The design only worked because one system was sub split
(below NTSC Ch 2), and the other was mid split (Between NTSC Chs 6-7).


You needed a minimum of Ch 2 and Ch 13 to set system gain controls.
I fed Ch 2 from 'Metrovision' into our subsplit loop, and converted
their Ch13 forward channel to T10, return channel. At our headend, I
used a pair of additional HSP. One converted T10 to Ch2, to feed to
their headend. The second converted Ch2 to Ch13 for the schools in our
service area. We provided a clean, NTSC analog modulator to a school in
our service area, while Metrovision used the cheapest FM video crap from
Catel. We left the control up to Metrovision. Our side looked as good as
our main CATV system, while anything provided through Metrovision was
smeared.

The design from Metrovison was costed at over $30,000, and was their
excuse for never interfacing with United Video Cablevision.

My design was designed and built for under $3000. It took one NEMA
box, three RCA HSP, and a handful of splitters that were used as
combiners or splitters inside the NEMA box, and two for the headend. I
was chewed out at turn on, because my levels were .25 dB hot at initial
power up.

The NEMA Enclosure was similar to this.

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Enclosures_-z-_Subpanels_-z-_Thermal_Management_-z-_Lighting/Enclosures/Padlocking_Enclosures/RHC242408?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product-search&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIruHw9fWy1wIVhjyBCh2cWARtE AYYAyABEgLgT_D_BwE

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:45:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near
the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian hydro.

Aren't Leftists wonderful? No to this, no to that, no to the other,
then SAVE ME from everything--after they've hosed any systems which
could have.

Maybe we need two governments. One large one to serve just the
Leftists covered by massive taxes paid only by them, then a small
one
to serve the actual Americans, with few taxes paid only by us.


The government they long for would ship their useless butts to the
gulag.

(Shhhh! They're getting closer.)

--
America rose from abnormal origina. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:39:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

The storm blew down trees that broke power lines and poles, so in that
sense distribution was a problem. The bucket trucks have a safe wind
limit of 35(??) MPH which the last storm exceeded all the next day,
delaying restoration.





The news said a crew could install two poles per
day. One of their anchors took Pole Climbing 101 and demonstrated that
he already has the right job.

Heh, heh, heh. That's a good reality check for a Leftjournalist.


A crew had just trimmed the trees near the lines here a week before
but they don't touch trees on private property that are further back.
I did ask.

The problem is that wherever the trees can fall on lines, they will in
a storm. All trees tall enough to impact lines should be topped
(usually not a good idea, but one option) or removed, not just
trimmed, if the power line is above ground. It's a binary problem and
solution. Fix it or suffer the consequences. Any trees tall enough
to impact the lines should be considered to be on the utility's right
of way. Yes, the owner should be given the choice of topping or
felling, and if they want the wood, the utility can leave the cut
remains. All or nothing. State legal teams need to get this to
happen. They already have right-of-ways through private property, so
this is a small extension.

== Looking at Santa Rosa and Napa Valley should be a clear indication
of why this needs to be done. 5,700 homes lost to simple gusty winds
because people wouldn't let the utility trim trees. ==

I took the option to ask the tree trimmers hired by Pacific Power to
take the whole trees down instead of just trimming them, and they did
it for me. The agreement was that I would handle the remains, but
when I returned home that day, they had chipped it, too. I asked if
they wanted to get rid of the chips and got two truckloads of them,
which I installed in place of a front lawn. Win/Win/Win.


https://www.eversource.com/Content/g.../tree-trimming

Eversource serves NH, MA and CT but not Maine, so I know nothing of
conditions there. Eversource brings in crews from all over the
Northeast and some from Canada to repair damage quickly, and loans
crews out for their problems. I think I've seen a truck from Ohio.
Smaller independents are slower to restore power.

Eversource has crews on standby for another windstorm tonight.

Yeah, linesmen are just like firefighters in that respect, swarming
from all over to fix a problem ASAP.

--
America rose from abnormal origina. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 19:04:55 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:29:44 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell
wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?

I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time
Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a
disappointingly short time.



Do you have any idea how much power it takes to run a CATV
distribution system? Those pole mounted power transformers are a
60V,
30A modified square wave from a Constant Voltage Transformer.

That is 1800 VA, continuous, and typically powers about a half
mile
of CATV system. How much do you want to be added to your bill, to
extend
that three hour design?

Go to your local phone company's central office. Take a look at their
backup power and then tell me how I get dial tone for $11/month and
it's got enough batteries to last until doomsday, and enough generator
& fuel to last till the coming of the messiah.

========================

I built a test load for a 48V 1000A central office battery charger, to
replace an old wood-framed one that had burned up. I didn't tie down
all the 4/0 welding cables for the initial test and when we switched
it on the suddenly magnetized cables slamming into the metal frame
sounded like lightning had hit the building.

I'll bet the janitor had to sweep up a whole lot of buttonholes that
evening.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:47:38 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 7:21:23 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:


But still, it seems to me that there could be (at the cost of a few
bucks each) a transponder in, say, each transformer that would let
them know it's got power. Much easier than driving around with a
flashlight to look at the poles & wires.
=======================

The easiest and cheapest solution is to see who calls to complain.

Ayup. That gives them the range and the range gives them what lines
are involved. That's how they initially determine what teams to send
out with what replacement equipment.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 18:52:52 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:



Finding the MPP with the DPS5015 shows me how much more current an
MPPT controller would give, compared to a direct connection from the
panel to the battery as with a PWM controller. I've read that an
MPPT
controller isn't cost-effective for arrays of 200W or less, or for
trickle charging batteries whose voltage is already close to the
MPP.

Yup, but they can give you a whole lot more usable power on larger
systems. I intend to expand this 1kW system to 6kW at some time in
the future, so I should probably buy that Outback before more
panels.
So, with the new 100w panel, are you now only up to 145w
(theoretical)?

Here is a good analysis of PWM vs MPPT:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...WM-or-MPPT.pdf
On Amazon PWM controllers go for $20 or less, MPPTs for $100 and up.

I use a metered adjustable linear regulator to top up and mildly
equalize batteries with power from my HF 45W kit. As they near full
charge the batteries draw less than the full current the panels can
provide and easy voltage adjustment becomes more important than
controller efficiency. 1.5A is enough for the marine batteries, 1.0A
for the vehicles. A Schottky diode in the regulator keeps battery
current from feeding back if I step on the wires and crush them
together against a stone.
-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 19:04:55 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
I built a test load for a 48V 1000A central office battery charger,
to
replace an old wood-framed one that had burned up. I didn't tie down
all the 4/0 welding cables for the initial test and when we switched
it on the suddenly magnetized cables slamming into the metal frame
sounded like lightning had hit the building.

I'll bet the janitor had to sweep up a whole lot of buttonholes that
evening.

Everyone was used to the high noise level of a sheet metal fab shop.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:39:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


The problem is that wherever the trees can fall on lines, they will
in
a storm. All trees tall enough to impact lines should be topped
(usually not a good idea, but one option) or removed, not just
trimmed, if the power line is above ground. It's a binary problem
and
solution. Fix it or suffer the consequences. Any trees tall enough
to impact the lines should be considered to be on the utility's
right
of way. Yes, the owner should be given the choice of topping or
felling, and if they want the wood, the utility can leave the cut
remains. All or nothing. State legal teams need to get this to
happen. They already have right-of-ways through private property,
so
this is a small extension.


The owner of roadside trees is generally the town and removing them is
an expensive and difficult political issue. People complain in the
paper about trees cut on private property.

I recently had my property lines surveyed and found that one corner
was out on the pavement. The town engineer's map of the road
right-of-way overlaps my deed by nearly 20', as he showed me with his
cell phone GPS. He prefers to avoid stirring up trouble.
-jsw

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 8:29:08 AM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:47:38 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 7:21:23 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:


But still, it seems to me that there could be (at the cost of a few
bucks each) a transponder in, say, each transformer that would let
them know it's got power. Much easier than driving around with a
flashlight to look at the poles & wires.
=======================

The easiest and cheapest solution is to see who calls to complain.

Ayup. That gives them the range and the range gives them what lines
are involved. That's how they initially determine what teams to send
out with what replacement equipment.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

Cheapest, but hardly efficient. Again, transponders would be cheap and could provide otherwise useful telemetry (voltage, load, etc). Our local utility (PSE&G) has installed 200W solar panels on many poles. Lots of poles - 40MW total. Some of these units have antennas on them. I don't know whether they are in constant communication to a central computer, but if they are, they could provide some useful information about outages. But I don't think they use that information. They just wait for enough people to call and then send out a car.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 08:33:56 -0800 (PST)
rangerssuck wrote:

snip
Cheapest, but hardly efficient. Again, transponders would
be cheap and could provide otherwise useful telemetry
(voltage, load, etc). Our local utility (PSE&G) has
installed 200W solar panels on many poles. Lots of poles -
40MW total. Some of these units have antennas on them. I
don't know whether they are in constant communication to a
central computer, but if they are, they could provide some
useful information about outages. But I don't think they
use that information. They just wait for enough people to
call and then send out a car.

Utility installed "smart meters" here several years ago. They use one
of the cell networks (my understanding) to report meter readings and
such several times a day. When power goes out they are suppose to be
able to still send out a death gasp.

I gave up calling in outages when they said I would be charged for the
service call if they deem it isn't there fault...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

Cheapest, but hardly efficient. Again, transponders would be cheap and
could provide otherwise useful telemetry (voltage, load, etc). Our
local utility (PSE&G) has installed 200W solar panels on many poles.
Lots of poles - 40MW total. Some of these units have antennas on them.
I don't know whether they are in constant communication to a central
computer, but if they are, they could provide some useful information
about outages. But I don't think they use that information. They just
wait for enough people to call and then send out a car.
======================================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
We haven't seen a quick, easy solution because the issue is very
complex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadb...er_power_lines
"Deployment of BPL has illustrated a number of fundamental challenges,
the primary one being that power lines are inherently a very noisy
environment."

This is a somewhat similar system in which independent nodes
intercommunicate over a single radio frequency using a collision
detection and avoidance protocol similar to Ethernet's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_f...raffic_control)

-jsw

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 1:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

Cheapest, but hardly efficient. Again, transponders would be cheap and
could provide otherwise useful telemetry (voltage, load, etc). Our
local utility (PSE&G) has installed 200W solar panels on many poles.
Lots of poles - 40MW total. Some of these units have antennas on them.
I don't know whether they are in constant communication to a central
computer, but if they are, they could provide some useful information
about outages. But I don't think they use that information. They just
wait for enough people to call and then send out a car.
======================================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
We haven't seen a quick, easy solution because the issue is very
complex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadb...er_power_lines
"Deployment of BPL has illustrated a number of fundamental challenges,
the primary one being that power lines are inherently a very noisy
environment."

This is a somewhat similar system in which independent nodes
intercommunicate over a single radio frequency using a collision
detection and avoidance protocol similar to Ethernet's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_f...raffic_control)

-jsw

Oh, fer crissake, they're just not trying very hard. Our water company recently did a third upgrade of our meter sender. The first could be read by a car driving by. The next could be read by helicopter, and the current on communicates directly with a satellite, so they tell me.

Power monitors wouldn't have to transmit a whole lot of data to say "I am alive."

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 1:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

Cheapest, but hardly efficient. Again, transponders would be cheap
and
could provide otherwise useful telemetry (voltage, load, etc). Our
local utility (PSE&G) has installed 200W solar panels on many poles.
Lots of poles - 40MW total. Some of these units have antennas on
them.
I don't know whether they are in constant communication to a central
computer, but if they are, they could provide some useful
information
about outages. But I don't think they use that information. They
just
wait for enough people to call and then send out a car.
======================================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
We haven't seen a quick, easy solution because the issue is very
complex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadb...er_power_lines
"Deployment of BPL has illustrated a number of fundamental
challenges,
the primary one being that power lines are inherently a very noisy
environment."

This is a somewhat similar system in which independent nodes
intercommunicate over a single radio frequency using a collision
detection and avoidance protocol similar to Ethernet's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_f...raffic_control)

-jsw

Oh, fer crissake, they're just not trying very hard. Our water company
recently did a third upgrade of our meter sender. The first could be
read by a car driving by. The next could be read by helicopter, and
the current on communicates directly with a satellite, so they tell
me.

Power monitors wouldn't have to transmit a whole lot of data to say "I
am alive."
======================

They aren't going to waste money on an incomplete temporary solution.
Water meters don't need to track and report phasing and overloads in
real time or command load shedding.

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 1:36:05 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 1:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

Cheapest, but hardly efficient. Again, transponders would be cheap
and
could provide otherwise useful telemetry (voltage, load, etc). Our
local utility (PSE&G) has installed 200W solar panels on many poles.
Lots of poles - 40MW total. Some of these units have antennas on
them.
I don't know whether they are in constant communication to a central
computer, but if they are, they could provide some useful
information
about outages. But I don't think they use that information. They
just
wait for enough people to call and then send out a car.
======================================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
We haven't seen a quick, easy solution because the issue is very
complex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadb...er_power_lines
"Deployment of BPL has illustrated a number of fundamental
challenges,
the primary one being that power lines are inherently a very noisy
environment."

This is a somewhat similar system in which independent nodes
intercommunicate over a single radio frequency using a collision
detection and avoidance protocol similar to Ethernet's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_f...raffic_control)

-jsw

Oh, fer crissake, they're just not trying very hard. Our water company
recently did a third upgrade of our meter sender. The first could be
read by a car driving by. The next could be read by helicopter, and
the current on communicates directly with a satellite, so they tell
me.

Power monitors wouldn't have to transmit a whole lot of data to say "I
am alive."
======================

They aren't going to waste money on an incomplete temporary solution.
Water meters don't need to track and report phasing and overloads in
real time or command load shedding.

As if sending managers out in cars in a storm isn't expensive or half-assed?
As I said, the solar panels they have already installed appear to have some sort of telemetry capability (I assume based on the fact that there are antennas attached). I can imagine that being useful to locating faults. Or not.

Meanwhile, in the past few years, my electric service has been much improved, since they did some pretty big infrastructure upgrades. They raised the HV on our poles from 8KV to 13KV (half the I^^2R loss). In doing that, they replaced every transformer, several poles and the substation transformers. Where my line voltage often dipped as low as 104 volts on a regular basis, it is now rock solid 117V. Even when it rains and the wind blows.

When they replaced the transformers, each had a 8/13KV switch, set to 8KV. After everything was in place, they brought in more trucks than I knew they had, so that there was at least one bucket truck for every two transformers. They shut off the power for less than ten minutes to switch every one of them. Pretty impressive.

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 1:36:05 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:


They aren't going to waste money on an incomplete temporary
solution.
Water meters don't need to track and report phasing and overloads
in
real time or command load shedding.

As if sending managers out in cars in a storm isn't expensive or
half-assed?

Exempt employees aren't paid overtime. What's the expense?

As I said, the solar panels they have already installed appear
to have some sort of telemetry capability (I assume based
on the fact that there are antennas attached). I can imagine
that being useful to locating faults. Or not.

Smart Grid components are appearing but I don't think they are ready
for mass deployment.
https://stopsmartmeters.org/

Meanwhile, in the past few years, my electric service has
been much improved, since they did some pretty big
infrastructure upgrades. They raised the HV on our poles
from 8KV to 13KV (half the I^^2R loss).

Ours is "19.9KV" which may be a regulatory step, otherwise why not
call it 20KV?.
-jsw

On 11/10/2017 03:22 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

from 8KV to 13KV (half the I^^2R loss).

Ours is "19.9KV" which may be a regulatory step, otherwise why not
call it 20KV?.

Probably the same reason that telephone central offices run on 48V DC, nominal, to stay within the "Less than 50V" section of the electrical codes. (Actual voltage is somewhat above that except when actually running on battery power.)

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 18:07:00 -0600, Robert Nichols wrote:

On 11/10/2017 03:22 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

from 8KV to 13KV (half the I^^2R loss).

Ours is "19.9KV" which may be a regulatory step, otherwise why not
call it 20KV?.

Probably the same reason that telephone central offices run on 48V DC, nominal, to stay within the "Less than 50V" section of the electrical codes. (Actual voltage is somewhat above that except when actually running on battery power.)

19.9 KV is 34.5 KV / sqrt(3), ie, the distribution-system
primary voltage of 19.9 KV looks like a 3-phase phase-voltage
from 34.5 KV transmission-line-voltage.

--
jiw

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 09:55:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:39:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


The problem is that wherever the trees can fall on lines, they will
in
a storm. All trees tall enough to impact lines should be topped
(usually not a good idea, but one option) or removed, not just
trimmed, if the power line is above ground. It's a binary problem
and
solution. Fix it or suffer the consequences. Any trees tall enough
to impact the lines should be considered to be on the utility's
right
of way. Yes, the owner should be given the choice of topping or
felling, and if they want the wood, the utility can leave the cut
remains. All or nothing. State legal teams need to get this to
happen. They already have right-of-ways through private property,
so
this is a small extension.


The owner of roadside trees is generally the town and removing them is
an expensive and difficult political issue. People complain in the
paper about trees cut on private property.

Which is why it needs to be addressed like the community problem it
is. State-level. Dis -aincho- tree, Mr. Nimby.


I recently had my property lines surveyed and found that one corner
was out on the pavement. The town engineer's map of the road
right-of-way overlaps my deed by nearly 20', as he showed me with his
cell phone GPS. He prefers to avoid stirring up trouble.

Power outages are "large stir", sir.

--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 09:55:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 18:39:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


The problem is that wherever the trees can fall on lines, they
will
in
a storm. All trees tall enough to impact lines should be topped
(usually not a good idea, but one option) or removed, not just
trimmed, if the power line is above ground. It's a binary problem
and
solution. Fix it or suffer the consequences. Any trees tall
enough
to impact the lines should be considered to be on the utility's
right
of way. Yes, the owner should be given the choice of topping or
felling, and if they want the wood, the utility can leave the cut
remains. All or nothing. State legal teams need to get this to
happen. They already have right-of-ways through private property,
so
this is a small extension.


The owner of roadside trees is generally the town and removing them
is
an expensive and difficult political issue. People complain in the
paper about trees cut on private property.

Which is why it needs to be addressed like the community problem it
is. State-level. Dis -aincho- tree, Mr. Nimby.


I recently had my property lines surveyed and found that one corner
was out on the pavement. The town engineer's map of the road
right-of-way overlaps my deed by nearly 20', as he showed me with
his
cell phone GPS. He prefers to avoid stirring up trouble.

Power outages are "large stir", sir.

All that matters is which authority figure can be blamed, in this case
God or Mother Nature.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 08:16:40 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 09:55:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

cell phone GPS. He prefers to avoid stirring up trouble.

Power outages are "large stir", sir.

All that matters is which authority figure can be blamed, in this case
God or Mother Nature.

Yeah, sucks. The Outraged Left need to be put in their places by
common sense things like keeping weapons (trees) out of the range of
our electric infrastructure (targets), period. Trim around them or
bury the utility where possible, giving them the choice, but one or
the other must be done. For the Santa Rosa fires to have happened in
the first place lends enough nasty reality to warrant the changes
immediately everywhere in the world, should they be sane enough to
choose wisely. Continue draining the swamp. MAGA


--
America rose from abnormal origins. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 7:20:31 PM UTC-5, Robert Nichols wrote:
On 11/10/2017 03:22 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

from 8KV to 13KV (half the I^^2R loss).

Ours is "19.9KV" which may be a regulatory step, otherwise why not
call it 20KV?.

Probably the same reason that telephone central offices run on 48V DC, nominal, to stay within the "Less than 50V" section of the electrical codes. (Actual voltage is somewhat above that except when actually running on battery power.)

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

I haven't done ony research on the (not THAT interesting)., but I bet that the 48V "battery" - actually -48V - predates any "Less than 50V" in the code. I spent a couple of weeks verifying test procedures at Bell Labs, where they have samples of EVERY device ever approved for connection to the PSTN. They go all the way back to stuff from the 19th century. All of them run on the same -48V system.

I have to say (probably have said it here before) that it's remarkable that you can take one of these ancient phones and plug it into a modern phone system and it still works. The same system can provide multi-megabit data service over the same wires. The Bellcore standards are pretty rigid, but allow for future improvements without obsoleting existing equipment.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news

Here is a good analysis of PWM vs MPPT:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...WM-or-MPPT.pdf
On Amazon PWM controllers go for $20 or less, MPPTs for $100 and up.


At 11AM the two 100W panels were sending 175W into the batteries
through a $20 PWM controller. I can't justify a $100 MPPT controller
to gain 25W.
-jsw

On 11/11/2017 08:42 AM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 7:20:31 PM UTC-5, Robert Nichols wrote:
On 11/10/2017 03:22 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...

from 8KV to 13KV (half the I^^2R loss).

Ours is "19.9KV" which may be a regulatory step, otherwise why not
call it 20KV?.

Probably the same reason that telephone central offices run on 48V DC, nominal, to stay within the "Less than 50V" section of the electrical codes. (Actual voltage is somewhat above that except when actually running on battery power.)

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

I haven't done ony research on the (not THAT interesting)., but I bet that the 48V "battery" - actually -48V - predates any "Less than 50V" in the code. I spent a couple of weeks verifying test procedures at Bell Labs, where they have samples of EVERY device ever approved for connection to the PSTN. They go all the way back to stuff from the 19th century. All of them run on the same -48V system.

Back when I was working there (started in No. 5 Crossbar, 40+ years ago) I was told that's the reason it's called "-48V" rather than "-50V" even though the actual voltage is more like -52V or -53V. I just accepted that.

In that "stuff from the 19th century", the central office didn't supply power to the subscriber phones. You had your own dry cell batteries to power the carbon microphone, so whatever voltage ran the CO switchboard was irrelevant.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:28:38 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news

Here is a good analysis of PWM vs MPPT:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...WM-or-MPPT.pdf
On Amazon PWM controllers go for $20 or less, MPPTs for $100 and up.


At 11AM the two 100W panels were sending 175W into the batteries
through a $20 PWM controller. I can't justify a $100 MPPT controller
to gain 25W.

Not at this level of play. When you get into kilowatts and battery
banks, they make sense.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:28:38 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news

Here is a good analysis of PWM vs MPPT:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...WM-or-MPPT.pdf
On Amazon PWM controllers go for $20 or less, MPPTs for $100 and
up.


At 11AM the two 100W panels were sending 175W into the batteries
through a $20 PWM controller. I can't justify a $100 MPPT controller
to gain 25W.

Not at this level of play. When you get into kilowatts and battery
banks, they make sense.


I don't mind spending for test equipment that increases my knowledge,
like wattmeters, but there's a tight limit to my investment in solar
power that by my calculation will never break even and only reduces
the inconvenience of a long power outage.

I use solar power to keep my vehicle batteries topped up. In this case
it extends rather than reduces their lifespan for a significant
savings, at no cost for electricity. The HF 45W kit is enough,
typically the battery draws less than 1 Amp as it nears a full charge.

I first tried a small solar charger safely inside on the dash but the
windshield reduced its output to less than the vehicle computer's
parasitic drain.
-jsw

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:50:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:28:38 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
Here is a good analysis of PWM vs MPPT:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...WM-or-MPPT.pdf
On Amazon PWM controllers go for $20 or less, MPPTs for $100 and
up.


At 11AM the two 100W panels were sending 175W into the batteries
through a $20 PWM controller. I can't justify a $100 MPPT controller
to gain 25W.

Not at this level of play. When you get into kilowatts and battery
banks, they make sense.


I don't mind spending for test equipment that increases my knowledge,
like wattmeters, but there's a tight limit to my investment in solar
power that by my calculation will never break even and only reduces
the inconvenience of a long power outage.

Until it's permanent. With the new 200w, you might fare much better
during a 3 month outage if major transformers were blown by a solar
flare, EMP, or terrorists shooting them up and blowing up the mfgr
plant. We have 1000x the required number of potential tangoes in the
US right now for that, not including ANTIFA or BLM. 60 of them
working together around the country concurrently could take us down to
9th century level in hours. It's only expensive until it isn't. Then
it's a necessity.


I use solar power to keep my vehicle batteries topped up. In this case
it extends rather than reduces their lifespan for a significant
savings, at no cost for electricity. The HF 45W kit is enough,
typically the battery draws less than 1 Amp as it nears a full charge.

Good to know.


I first tried a small solar charger safely inside on the dash but the
windshield reduced its output to less than the vehicle computer's
parasitic drain.

Tinted windshield, or just the dual-pane with plastic in the middle?

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:50:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...the inconvenience of a long power outage.

Until it's permanent. With the new 200w, you might fare much better
during a 3 month outage if major transformers were blown by a solar
flare, EMP, or terrorists shooting them up and blowing up the mfgr
plant. We have 1000x the required number of potential tangoes in
the
US right now for that, not including ANTIFA or BLM. 60 of them
working together around the country concurrently could take us down
to
9th century level in hours. It's only expensive until it isn't.
Then
it's a necessity.


I'd actually be more concerned about stray bullets from the 100,000 NH
hunters out chasing the terrorists. Normally we can fire only shotguns
upward, but anyone caught up a utility pole without a truck nearby
would be a rifle target.

The massive bombing of WW2 took over a year to cripple Germany and
Japan, after several years of preparation and difficult lessons.
Commando raids were costly and had relatively little effect unless the
target was unusually vulnerable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid

Much of US infrastructure intentionally includes the redundancy to
resist or recover from nuclear attacks, for instance the power grid,
the Internet and phone systems, and the National System of Interstate
and *Defense* Highways. The people who built them had first-hand
experience of how hard it had been to disable Germany.

Around here at least the contractors and the town and State road
departments are well equipped with the types of heavy equipment that
originally built the infrastructure. FEMA needs to send only the suits
who evaluate the damage and repair costs.

I hear that the South has begun to acquire equipment to deal with
increasingly severe winters.
http://www.myajc.com/news/local/snow...EXKQ51aMGzznK/

-jsw

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:28:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:50:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...the inconvenience of a long power outage.

Until it's permanent. With the new 200w, you might fare much better
during a 3 month outage if major transformers were blown by a solar
flare, EMP, or terrorists shooting them up and blowing up the mfgr
plant. We have 1000x the required number of potential tangoes in
the
US right now for that, not including ANTIFA or BLM. 60 of them
working together around the country concurrently could take us down
to
9th century level in hours. It's only expensive until it isn't.
Then
it's a necessity.


I'd actually be more concerned about stray bullets from the 100,000 NH
hunters out chasing the terrorists. Normally we can fire only shotguns
upward, but anyone caught up a utility pole without a truck nearby
would be a rifle target.

Maybe, and only during hunting season.
https://www.google.com/search?q=atta...utf-8&oe=utf-8

The worst is the potential increase in things like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack
References at the bottom, too. An attack from the inside on multiple
points would overload any possibility of rerouting.


The massive bombing of WW2 took over a year to cripple Germany and
Japan, after several years of preparation and difficult lessons.
Commando raids were costly and had relatively little effect unless the
target was unusually vulnerable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid

Yes, I read a time travel book written around that raid. Exciting!

But we're talking about an open, free society who has let an unknown
number of terrorists (+ hundreds of thousands of potential terrorists)
loose in times of "peace" while half of society grumbles if someone
"profiles" them. Not the same at all.


Much of US infrastructure intentionally includes the redundancy to
resist or recover from nuclear attacks, for instance the power grid,
the Internet and phone systems, and the National System of Interstate
and *Defense* Highways. The people who built them had first-hand
experience of how hard it had been to disable Germany.

Redundancy once parts are missing? They're talking about everything
we have, the whole grid, being maxed out right now, Jim. Can you say
"cascading failures"? VERY new portions are hardened, but in the case
of an EMP, the lines act as antennae, gathering the pulse. One on
each north coast would take down a minimum of half the US grid. What
then?


Around here at least the contractors and the town and State road
departments are well equipped with the types of heavy equipment that
originally built the infrastructure. FEMA needs to send only the suits
who evaluate the damage and repair costs.

I'm talking about once they decide to really cripple us. 60 tangoes
at once, all over the US. Most gas pumps would be out, truck supply
would be out


I hear that the South has begun to acquire equipment to deal with
increasingly severe winters.
http://www.myajc.com/news/local/snow...EXKQ51aMGzznK/

Targeted on natural outages, not terrorism. Hmm, in the case of EMP,
or solar flare, are -any- known snow plow electrical systems immune?
Any diesel trucks newer than 20 years immune?

Bottom line: Got Preps?

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:28:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:50:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...the inconvenience of a long power outage.

Until it's permanent. With the new 200w, you might fare much
better
during a 3 month outage if major transformers were blown by a
solar
flare, EMP, or terrorists shooting them up and blowing up the mfgr
plant. We have 1000x the required number of potential tangoes in
the
US right now for that, not including ANTIFA or BLM. 60 of them
working together around the country concurrently could take us
down
to
9th century level in hours. It's only expensive until it isn't.
Then
it's a necessity.


I'd actually be more concerned about stray bullets from the 100,000
NH
hunters out chasing the terrorists. Normally we can fire only
shotguns
upward, but anyone caught up a utility pole without a truck nearby
would be a rifle target.

Maybe, and only during hunting season.
https://www.google.com/search?q=atta...utf-8&oe=utf-8

The worst is the potential increase in things like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack
References at the bottom, too. An attack from the inside on
multiple
points would overload any possibility of rerouting.


The massive bombing of WW2 took over a year to cripple Germany and
Japan, after several years of preparation and difficult lessons.
Commando raids were costly and had relatively little effect unless
the
target was unusually vulnerable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid

Yes, I read a time travel book written around that raid. Exciting!

But we're talking about an open, free society who has let an unknown
number of terrorists (+ hundreds of thousands of potential
terrorists)
loose in times of "peace" while half of society grumbles if someone
"profiles" them. Not the same at all.


Much of US infrastructure intentionally includes the redundancy to
resist or recover from nuclear attacks, for instance the power grid,
the Internet and phone systems, and the National System of
Interstate
and *Defense* Highways. The people who built them had first-hand
experience of how hard it had been to disable Germany.

Redundancy once parts are missing? They're talking about everything
we have, the whole grid, being maxed out right now, Jim. Can you say
"cascading failures"? VERY new portions are hardened, but in the
case
of an EMP, the lines act as antennae, gathering the pulse. One on
each north coast would take down a minimum of half the US grid.
What
then?


Around here at least the contractors and the town and State road
departments are well equipped with the types of heavy equipment that
originally built the infrastructure. FEMA needs to send only the
suits
who evaluate the damage and repair costs.

I'm talking about once they decide to really cripple us. 60 tangoes
at once, all over the US. Most gas pumps would be out, truck supply
would be out


I hear that the South has begun to acquire equipment to deal with
increasingly severe winters.
http://www.myajc.com/news/local/snow...EXKQ51aMGzznK/

Targeted on natural outages, not terrorism. Hmm, in the case of
EMP,
or solar flare, are -any- known snow plow electrical systems immune?
Any diesel trucks newer than 20 years immune?

Bottom line: Got Preps?

For a week or two, but not the collapse of civilization. Then the
problem would be the hungry raiding hordes and the best answer might
be to join the local warlord's army instead of trying to conceal
yourself and your stash from them.

Got useful military or survival skills?
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55957

-5Gn26mC&

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 12:16:34 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:28:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 09:50:42 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...the inconvenience of a long power outage.

Until it's permanent. With the new 200w, you might fare much better
during a 3 month outage if major transformers were blown by a solar
flare, EMP, or terrorists shooting them up and blowing up the mfgr
plant. We have 1000x the required number of potential tangoes in
the
US right now for that, not including ANTIFA or BLM. 60 of them
working together around the country concurrently could take us down
to
9th century level in hours. It's only expensive until it isn't.
Then
it's a necessity.


I'd actually be more concerned about stray bullets from the 100,000 NH
hunters out chasing the terrorists. Normally we can fire only shotguns
upward, but anyone caught up a utility pole without a truck nearby
would be a rifle target.

Maybe, and only during hunting season.
https://www.google.com/search?q=atta...utf-8&oe=utf-8

The worst is the potential increase in things like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack
References at the bottom, too. An attack from the inside on multiple
points would overload any possibility of rerouting.


The massive bombing of WW2 took over a year to cripple Germany and
Japan, after several years of preparation and difficult lessons.
Commando raids were costly and had relatively little effect unless the
target was unusually vulnerable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid

Yes, I read a time travel book written around that raid. Exciting!

But we're talking about an open, free society who has let an unknown
number of terrorists (+ hundreds of thousands of potential terrorists)
loose in times of "peace" while half of society grumbles if someone
"profiles" them. Not the same at all.


Much of US infrastructure intentionally includes the redundancy to
resist or recover from nuclear attacks, for instance the power grid,
the Internet and phone systems, and the National System of Interstate
and *Defense* Highways. The people who built them had first-hand
experience of how hard it had been to disable Germany.

Redundancy once parts are missing? They're talking about everything
we have, the whole grid, being maxed out right now, Jim. Can you say
"cascading failures"? VERY new portions are hardened, but in the case
of an EMP, the lines act as antennae, gathering the pulse. One on
each north coast would take down a minimum of half the US grid. What
then?


Around here at least the contractors and the town and State road
departments are well equipped with the types of heavy equipment that
originally built the infrastructure. FEMA needs to send only the suits
who evaluate the damage and repair costs.

I'm talking about once they decide to really cripple us. 60 tangoes
at once, all over the US. Most gas pumps would be out, truck supply
would be out


I hear that the South has begun to acquire equipment to deal with
increasingly severe winters.
http://www.myajc.com/news/local/snow...EXKQ51aMGzznK/

Targeted on natural outages, not terrorism. Hmm, in the case of EMP,
or solar flare, are -any- known snow plow electrical systems immune?
Any diesel trucks newer than 20 years immune?

Bottom line: Got Preps?


Good post!


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On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 12:16:34 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

The worst is the potential increase in things like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack
References at the bottom, too. An attack from the inside on multiple
points would overload any possibility of rerouting.


The shooters "only" used a rather weak cartridge. If they had been
using..say.. 3006 AP rounds..the damage could have been much...much
worse and if repeated at transitional locations...it could have shut
down a very wide area.

" More than 100 expended 7.62×39mm cases were later found at the
site."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-ame...ark-1468423254

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...grid-in-danger

http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecur...tmare-scenario


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