Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:40:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If it's only affected after a power outage, could the start cap on
the
motor be leaking down?


No, Larry, during an outage I have only the 30A or so max from the
genny to start the motor and that isn't enough to start it under load.
When the power is on this house can pull 200A from the grid all day,
the neighborhood was originally wired for electric heat.

The washing machine also won't start on 30A unless I push the
spring-tensioned motor inward to let the belt slip.

-jsw


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On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:00:46 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:40:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If it's only affected after a power outage, could the start cap on
the
motor be leaking down?


No, Larry, during an outage I have only the 30A or so max from the
genny to start the motor and that isn't enough to start it under load.


The way you said it was...curious. "long outage"


When the power is on this house can pull 200A from the grid all day,
the neighborhood was originally wired for electric heat.


Mine was wired that way, too, and I absolutely hated the baseboard
crap. The first thing I did was spend $9,000 to toss the 240v radiant
heat, put in a 96% efficient gas heater with A/C, pull out the single
glazed aluminum windows and put in dual-glazed PVC windows, and get
all-new, -efficient- kitchen and washroom appliances. That gave me 2
new dual circuits for 3 new 240v outlets in the shop (seldom used
concurrently), one dual circuit for the new A/C condenser, a circuit
for the furnace, and 3 spare slots.


The washing machine also won't start on 30A unless I push the
spring-tensioned motor inward to let the belt slip.


Cheater! Get a new washer. I hear they're only 1/4hp now, and won't
blow a 15a breaker.

--
One of the reasons (progressive) college students get so upset
about everything is the poor quelity of teaching they receive.
Well-educated people are generally unshockable. They have no
intellectual hinterland and no curiosity about the world around
them or about anything that has preceded their own lives.
Centuries of history, culture, and wisdom are dismissed as
products of "dead white men."
--MILO. Dangerous
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On 11/4/2017 3:11 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

If you don't mind some shipping costs I can help you out with some basic
stuff.Â* I'm not a "real" machinist, but I am perfectly competent at
turning stock into a pile of unrecoverable chips.



COOL! I'll let you know when I'm there. I'll need an adapter for the
motor shaft to a timing belt pulley and a 5/8" x 4"shaft.
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:00:46 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:40:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If it's only affected after a power outage, could the start cap on
the
motor be leaking down?


No, Larry, during an outage I have only the 30A or so max from the
genny to start the motor and that isn't enough to start it under
load.


The way you said it was...curious. "long outage"


This is what that curious-to-you phrase means:
http://www.nh1.com/news/new-hampshir...-in-nh-history
The storm hit on Sunday night and the crews are only now completing
the final restorations.

I ran the fridge on the UPS overnight, then since we hadn't lost power
I checked the run time on the 6 year old batteries, which was still
adequate. The solar panels I have now aren't enough to keep up with
daily demand so I took advantage of Home Depot's sale on "100W" panels
for $99 with free home delivery.

They are Grape Solar polycrystallines which get good enough reviews
that lack technical details. I have the equipment to measure and
record their output and will give them a good checkout, and perhaps
buy an MPPT controller if it makes economic sense. Right now MPPTs
cost about as much as another 100W panel without adding as much output
from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track changes
automatically.

When the power is on this house can pull 200A from the grid all day,
the neighborhood was originally wired for electric heat.


Mine was wired that way, too, and I absolutely hated the baseboard
crap. The first thing I did was spend $9,000 to toss the 240v
radiant
heat, put in a 96% efficient gas heater with A/C, pull out the
single
glazed aluminum windows and put in dual-glazed PVC windows, and get
all-new, -efficient- kitchen and washroom appliances. That gave me
2
new dual circuits for 3 new 240v outlets in the shop (seldom used
concurrently), one dual circuit for the new A/C condenser, a circuit
for the furnace, and 3 spare slots.


I left the electric heat intact as an automatic backup for the wood
heat, with new thermostats that can be set below 50F. Heat in the
bathroom is very nice when I've let the house cool below 55F.

The washing machine also won't start on 30A unless I push the
spring-tensioned motor inward to let the belt slip.


Cheater! Get a new washer. I hear they're only 1/4hp now, and
won't
blow a 15a breaker.


My old Dependable Care Maytags are easily modified to wash with water
heated on the wood stove and poured in. I bypassed the water level
control which allows these top loaders to wash with as little water as
a front loader. Water isn't short here but heating it is expensive.
The one I'm using now simply has an added Wash/Spin switch that
reverses the start winding. All I had to do to change the wiring was
rearrange the Fastons.

-jsw


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On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:00:46 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:40:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If it's only affected after a power outage, could the start cap on
the
motor be leaking down?

No, Larry, during an outage I have only the 30A or so max from the
genny to start the motor and that isn't enough to start it under
load.


The way you said it was...curious. "long outage"


This is what that curious-to-you phrase means:
http://www.nh1.com/news/new-hampshir...-in-nh-history
The storm hit on Sunday night and the crews are only now completing
the final restorations.


It's that Globular Swarming, uh, I meant Crimate Change, uh, I mean
Tipping Point again. Leftist scientists say it'll be happening every
5 years from now on.


I ran the fridge on the UPS overnight, then since we hadn't lost power
I checked the run time on the 6 year old batteries, which was still
adequate. The solar panels I have now aren't enough to keep up with
daily demand so I took advantage of Home Depot's sale on "100W" panels
for $99 with free home delivery.


Not a bad price.


They are Grape Solar polycrystallines which get good enough reviews
that lack technical details. I have the equipment to measure and
record their output and will give them a good checkout, and perhaps
buy an MPPT controller if it makes economic sense. Right now MPPTs
cost about as much as another 100W panel without adding as much output


A PWM controller was included with the $1119 kit I got. 1080w of poly
solar (6x 180w panels @ $170 ea.) I found a backup "MPPT" controller
for $26, ($99 now http://tinyurl.com/yajajczf ) so I'll be testing the
two against each other to see if the pseudo-MPPT gives any better
output. These Taiwanese jobs were the next step up at $300.
http://tinyurl.com/ybvt6mme An Outback Flexmax 80 would be a nice one
to grow into (with datalogger) but they cost $509. They're good for
150v solar arrays, so I could triple-up panels in series/parallel for
less loss. Some day.


from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track changes
automatically.


Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look for
some more articles on MPP to see.


When the power is on this house can pull 200A from the grid all day,
the neighborhood was originally wired for electric heat.


Mine was wired that way, too, and I absolutely hated the baseboard
crap. The first thing I did was spend $9,000 to toss the 240v
radiant
heat, put in a 96% efficient gas heater with A/C, pull out the
single
glazed aluminum windows and put in dual-glazed PVC windows, and get
all-new, -efficient- kitchen and washroom appliances. That gave me
2
new dual circuits for 3 new 240v outlets in the shop (seldom used
concurrently), one dual circuit for the new A/C condenser, a circuit
for the furnace, and 3 spare slots.


I left the electric heat intact as an automatic backup for the wood
heat, with new thermostats that can be set below 50F. Heat in the
bathroom is very nice when I've let the house cool below 55F.


Grok that. I disabled my shiny chrome heater, but put a $20 milkhouse
heater in there to warm things up before showers. Heavenly.


The washing machine also won't start on 30A unless I push the
spring-tensioned motor inward to let the belt slip.


Cheater! Get a new washer. I hear they're only 1/4hp now, and
won't
blow a 15a breaker.


My old Dependable Care Maytags are easily modified to wash with water
heated on the wood stove and poured in. I bypassed the water level
control which allows these top loaders to wash with as little water as
a front loader. Water isn't short here but heating it is expensive.


Yeah, the older Kenmore and Maytags were bulletproof. My Magic Chef
(? yeah, me, too) is a cheaped-out Maytag with plastic bucket. They
had to replace the washer motor within 6 weeks. And the dryer thumped
for the first 5 minutes due to soft rollers. I had them replace 'em
although the tech said it wouldn't matter. Once he showed me the soft
rubber rollers he removed, I understood. The type of rubber makes for
thumps for the first few minutes, but a quieter dryer for the next 45.

I switched to a warm wash/cold rinse, which showed on my electric bill
years ago to be the best way. With solar hot water and LED lighting,
I may have $20/mo electric bills. The furnace has a variable speed DC
fan motor for more savings. Carrier Infinity = no wood smoke = Love
it.


The one I'm using now simply has an added Wash/Spin switch that
reverses the start winding. All I had to do to change the wiring was
rearrange the Fastons.


One of my water heater elements will be solar soon, so that should
effectively drop my electric bill by half. We'll see what 900w will
do in a 20gal tank. I'll run solar all day. The other element is
3800w and I installed a timer (limited to 3hr/day) to bump it to 120F
in the evening when necessary. Now to find sensors to collect data on
it...

--
One of the reasons (progressive) college students get so upset
about everything is the poor quelity of teaching they receive.
Well-educated people are generally unshockable. They have no
intellectual hinterland and no curiosity about the world around
them or about anything that has preceded their own lives.
Centuries of history, culture, and wisdom are dismissed as
products of "dead white men."
--MILO. Dangerous


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"Tom Gardner" wrote in message news
On 11/4/2017 3:11 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

If you don't mind some shipping costs I can help you out with some basic
stuff. I'm not a "real" machinist, but I am perfectly competent at
turning stock into a pile of unrecoverable chips.



COOL! I'll let you know when I'm there. I'll need an adapter for the
motor shaft to a timing belt pulley and a 5/8" x 4"shaft.

*** Doesn't sound to hard. I'm sure I can destroy those parts easily. Use
the contact form at cncmolds.com to start a private mail conversation when
you are ready.


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On Sun, 05 Nov 2017 07:37:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track changes
automatically.


Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look for
some more articles on MPP to see.


Nope. Conditions vary so much that a single snapshot of an MPP in
time wouldn't be of much use. It appears that the MPPT controller
changes the resistance of the circuit so it continues to output max
power at all times, from 1 to 1000 times per second. (one of 84
million 400 thousand snapshots a day.

https://www.teachengineering.org/les...pveff_lesson03
(I know, k12 site, but it had the info I sought.)

--
One of the reasons (progressive) college students get so upset
about everything is the poor quelity of teaching they receive.
Well-educated people are generally unshockable. They have no
intellectual hinterland and no curiosity about the world around
them or about anything that has preceded their own lives.
Centuries of history, culture, and wisdom are dismissed as
products of "dead white men."
--MILO. Dangerous
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Posts: 5,888
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:00:46 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
m...
On Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:40:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If it's only affected after a power outage, could the start cap
on
the
motor be leaking down?

No, Larry, during an outage I have only the 30A or so max from the
genny to start the motor and that isn't enough to start it under
load.

The way you said it was...curious. "long outage"


This is what that curious-to-you phrase means:
http://www.nh1.com/news/new-hampshir...-in-nh-history
The storm hit on Sunday night and the crews are only now completing
the final restorations.


It's that Globular Swarming, uh, I meant Crimate Change, uh, I mean
Tipping Point again. Leftist scientists say it'll be happening
every
5 years from now on.


We were wrong to doubt Chicken Little.


I ran the fridge on the UPS overnight, then since we hadn't lost
power
I checked the run time on the 6 year old batteries, which was still
adequate. The solar panels I have now aren't enough to keep up with
daily demand so I took advantage of Home Depot's sale on "100W"
panels
for $99 with free home delivery.


Not a bad price.


They are Grape Solar polycrystallines which get good enough reviews
that lack technical details. I have the equipment to measure and
record their output and will give them a good checkout, and perhaps
buy an MPPT controller if it makes economic sense. Right now MPPTs
cost about as much as another 100W panel without adding as much
output


A PWM controller was included with the $1119 kit I got. 1080w of
poly
solar (6x 180w panels @ $170 ea.) I found a backup "MPPT"
controller
for $26, ($99 now http://tinyurl.com/yajajczf ) so I'll be testing
the
two against each other to see if the pseudo-MPPT gives any better
output. These Taiwanese jobs were the next step up at $300.
http://tinyurl.com/ybvt6mme An Outback Flexmax 80 would be a nice
one
to grow into (with datalogger) but they cost $509. They're good for
150v solar arrays, so I could triple-up panels in series/parallel
for
less loss. Some day.


There's this, if you want to look cool and easy to operate:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0739P1K9Y...a-351132182348

from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track
changes
automatically.


Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even
without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look for
some more articles on MPP to see.


If the sky is clear the panel output doesn't change much in an hour.
We are downwind of Vermont's mountains and if it is at all cloudy the
solar output may vary so much that I'd be better off recharging from a
generator.


One of my water heater elements will be solar soon, so that should
effectively drop my electric bill by half. We'll see what 900w will
do in a 20gal tank. I'll run solar all day. The other element is
3800w and I installed a timer (limited to 3hr/day) to bump it to
120F
in the evening when necessary. Now to find sensors to collect data
on
it...


My well-insulated 40 gallon electric water heater draws ~1 KWH per
day, 28 KWH on the bill for September.

-jsw


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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 05 Nov 2017 07:37:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track
changes
automatically.


Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even
without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look for
some more articles on MPP to see.


Nope. Conditions vary so much that a single snapshot of an MPP in
time wouldn't be of much use. It appears that the MPPT controller
changes the resistance of the circuit so it continues to output max
power at all times, from 1 to 1000 times per second. (one of 84
million 400 thousand snapshots a day.

https://www.teachengineering.org/les...pveff_lesson03
(I know, k12 site, but it had the info I sought.)


I made that measurement on my HF 45W panels with a large rheostat and
a DC Volt/Amp/Watt meter and found a range of several volts where the
efficiency was at least 95% of the peak.

Batteries charge with Amps, not Watts. Any charging voltage above the
12.6V that the battery gives back is only a lost entry fee. The graph
shows that the current continues to increase as the load (battery)
pulls the panel voltage further below the Maximum Power Point.

The DPS5015 displays output Volts, Amps and Watts and with another
wattmeter like the blue Aode in the input, the output can be adjusted
for the maximum charging current reading, then you can compare Watts
in and out to see efficiency.

-jsw


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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 05 Nov 2017 07:37:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track
changes
automatically.


Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even
without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look for
some more articles on MPP to see.


Nope. Conditions vary so much that a single snapshot of an MPP in
time wouldn't be of much use. It appears that the MPPT controller
changes the resistance of the circuit so it continues to output max
power at all times, from 1 to 1000 times per second. (one of 84
million 400 thousand snapshots a day.

https://www.teachengineering.org/les...pveff_lesson03
(I know, k12 site, but it had the info I sought.)


http://lib.tkk.fi/Dipl/2010/urn100399.pdf

Finding the MPP with the DPS5015 shows me how much more current an
MPPT controller would give, compared to a direct connection from the
panel to the battery as with a PWM controller. I've read that an MPPT
controller isn't cost-effective for arrays of 200W or less, or for
trickle charging batteries whose voltage is already close to the MPP.
-jsw




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On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 14:48:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:00:46 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
om...
On Fri, 3 Nov 2017 12:40:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If it's only affected after a power outage, could the start cap
on
the
motor be leaking down?

No, Larry, during an outage I have only the 30A or so max from the
genny to start the motor and that isn't enough to start it under
load.

The way you said it was...curious. "long outage"

This is what that curious-to-you phrase means:
http://www.nh1.com/news/new-hampshir...-in-nh-history
The storm hit on Sunday night and the crews are only now completing
the final restorations.


It's that Globular Swarming, uh, I meant Crimate Change, uh, I mean
Tipping Point again. Leftist scientists say it'll be happening
every
5 years from now on.


We were wrong to doubt Chicken Little.


Ohmigodwe'reallgonnadie. g


I ran the fridge on the UPS overnight, then since we hadn't lost
power
I checked the run time on the 6 year old batteries, which was still
adequate. The solar panels I have now aren't enough to keep up with
daily demand so I took advantage of Home Depot's sale on "100W"
panels
for $99 with free home delivery.


Not a bad price.


They are Grape Solar polycrystallines which get good enough reviews
that lack technical details. I have the equipment to measure and
record their output and will give them a good checkout, and perhaps
buy an MPPT controller if it makes economic sense. Right now MPPTs
cost about as much as another 100W panel without adding as much
output


A PWM controller was included with the $1119 kit I got. 1080w of
poly
solar (6x 180w panels @ $170 ea.) I found a backup "MPPT"
controller
for $26, ($99 now http://tinyurl.com/yajajczf ) so I'll be testing
the
two against each other to see if the pseudo-MPPT gives any better
output. These Taiwanese jobs were the next step up at $300.
http://tinyurl.com/ybvt6mme An Outback Flexmax 80 would be a nice
one
to grow into (with datalogger) but they cost $509. They're good for
150v solar arrays, so I could triple-up panels in series/parallel
for
less loss. Some day.


There's this, if you want to look cool and easy to operate:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0739P1K9Y...a-351132182348


I would all but guarantee that it's not an actual MPPT controller.
(Oh, it says "Not True MPPT". How about that!) MANY of the cheap
Chiwanese units aren't. I'll find out whether or not my cheapie is
real once it's installed. It's likely also "MPPT compatible".


from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track
changes
automatically.


Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even
without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look for
some more articles on MPP to see.


If the sky is clear the panel output doesn't change much in an hour.
We are downwind of Vermont's mountains and if it is at all cloudy the
solar output may vary so much that I'd be better off recharging from a
generator.


It all depends on what you're doing with the power. I'll be spending
it as quickly as it's produced until summer comes. Then it goes to
feed the batteries, of which I'll have too few. If you have the
controller for it, you can have excess volts converted to amps for
storage in the batteries at various levels. I'll run a 24vdc bank (of
two), with up to 43v in...if the controller decides to work well.


One of my water heater elements will be solar soon, so that should
effectively drop my electric bill by half. We'll see what 900w will
do in a 20gal tank. I'll run solar all day. The other element is
3800w and I installed a timer (limited to 3hr/day) to bump it to
120F
in the evening when necessary. Now to find sensors to collect data
on
it...


My well-insulated 40 gallon electric water heater draws ~1 KWH per
day, 28 KWH on the bill for September.


Why aren't you using it? (Oh, woodstove heating water, right. Isn't
that hot in the summer?)

I ran 558kwh in the hideous August heat, and only 202 last month. The
overly-long/hot July bumped my Comfort Level payments from $38 to
$43/mo. Half is for admin and half is the charge for electrons. sigh

--
In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings
we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to
our efforts.
-- Peter McWilliams
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 14:48:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


My well-insulated 40 gallon electric water heater draws ~1 KWH per
day, 28 KWH on the bill for September.


Why aren't you using it? (Oh, woodstove heating water, right. Isn't
that hot in the summer?)


I -am- using the electric water heater. My sink spray shower is very
efficient.
-jsw


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On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 18:52:52 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 05 Nov 2017 07:37:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track
changes
automatically.

Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even
without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look for
some more articles on MPP to see.


Nope. Conditions vary so much that a single snapshot of an MPP in
time wouldn't be of much use. It appears that the MPPT controller
changes the resistance of the circuit so it continues to output max
power at all times, from 1 to 1000 times per second. (one of 84
million 400 thousand snapshots a day.

https://www.teachengineering.org/les...pveff_lesson03
(I know, k12 site, but it had the info I sought.)


http://lib.tkk.fi/Dipl/2010/urn100399.pdf


Schools can buy solar simulators now, with which they can do this type
of experimenting. Guessing that FLC won before reading the article,
which looks like one I'll enjoy. Thanks.


Finding the MPP with the DPS5015 shows me how much more current an
MPPT controller would give, compared to a direct connection from the
panel to the battery as with a PWM controller. I've read that an MPPT
controller isn't cost-effective for arrays of 200W or less, or for
trickle charging batteries whose voltage is already close to the MPP.


Yup, but they can give you a whole lot more usable power on larger
systems. I intend to expand this 1kW system to 6kW at some time in
the future, so I should probably buy that Outback before more panels.
So, with the new 100w panel, are you now only up to 145w
(theoretical)?

--
In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings
we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to
our efforts.
-- Peter McWilliams
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On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 20:09:18 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 14:48:54 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


My well-insulated 40 gallon electric water heater draws ~1 KWH per
day, 28 KWH on the bill for September.


Why aren't you using it? (Oh, woodstove heating water, right. Isn't
that hot in the summer?)


I -am- using the electric water heater. My sink spray shower is very
efficient.


Dayum, must be. That or your monthly shower is short. gd&r

The cutoff showerheads sure save water/power. I like lots of water to
do quick rinses, so shutting it off after wetting down, shampooing,
then soap/scrubbing, then turning on for a quick rinse with many hard,
fine streams is great. Instead of lo-flo, I go with hi-flo/short
showers. A wimpy hand sprayer wouldn't suit me at all. I'm in and
out in four minutes, loofah in hand. (Dad was Air Force and related
the GI shower theme to me.)

--
In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings
we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to
our efforts.
-- Peter McWilliams
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 18:52:52 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 05 Nov 2017 07:37:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:09:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

from a small system. My DPS5015 switching regulator can be used
to
find and charge at the maximum power point but it won't track
changes
automatically.

Interesting, but sort of a moot point without automation. Or is
it?
Finding the MPP of the system might be good for a boost, even
without
the tracking, but I haven't seen any studies on that. I'll look
for
some more articles on MPP to see.

Nope. Conditions vary so much that a single snapshot of an MPP in
time wouldn't be of much use. It appears that the MPPT controller
changes the resistance of the circuit so it continues to output
max
power at all times, from 1 to 1000 times per second. (one of 84
million 400 thousand snapshots a day.

https://www.teachengineering.org/les...pveff_lesson03
(I know, k12 site, but it had the info I sought.)


http://lib.tkk.fi/Dipl/2010/urn100399.pdf


Schools can buy solar simulators now, with which they can do this
type
of experimenting. Guessing that FLC won before reading the article,
which looks like one I'll enjoy. Thanks.


Finding the MPP with the DPS5015 shows me how much more current an
MPPT controller would give, compared to a direct connection from the
panel to the battery as with a PWM controller. I've read that an
MPPT
controller isn't cost-effective for arrays of 200W or less, or for
trickle charging batteries whose voltage is already close to the
MPP.


Yup, but they can give you a whole lot more usable power on larger
systems. I intend to expand this 1kW system to 6kW at some time in
the future, so I should probably buy that Outback before more
panels.
So, with the new 100w panel, are you now only up to 145w
(theoretical)?


I have around 200W now and ordered another 200W. The limitation on
solar here is large shade trees that cut my air conditioning bill to
$5 a month. One solar array catches an opening between the trees
before noon, the other after it. I used an extra freestanding HF panel
to find a convenient area for the new panels where I can get power
from 8AM to 2PM though it's not a good spot for a permanent mount.

After the leaves fall there's sun all day, filtered somewhat by bare
branches. I already have enough solar power to keep my vehicle and
backup batteries topped off but this last storm and run time test
showed how dependent I am on a generator if I can't keep food cold
outdoors.
-jsw




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On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .


Yup, but they can give you a whole lot more usable power on larger
systems. I intend to expand this 1kW system to 6kW at some time in
the future, so I should probably buy that Outback before more


Oops, I meant MidNite Solar Classic 150-SL @ about the same price.


panels.
So, with the new 100w panel, are you now only up to 145w
(theoretical)?


I have around 200W now and ordered another 200W.


Oh, good. You're inching toward real power, good for something more
than a 5" tv, am/fm radio, or LED lighting.



The limitation on
solar here is large shade trees that cut my air conditioning bill to
$5 a month.


But if you have solar, you can generate your own free electrons. Are
the trees on your lot/cuttable? IMHO, shade is extremely overrated,
except when you want to sit outside in the spring/fall, in which case
you need precisely one tall shrub or small tree. I took down 4 large
trees and I sure don't miss the trouble they caused. I no longer have
trouble mowing and with only 3 trees left (1 constantly shedding
Redwood and 2 deciduous at the property lines, sharing the bounty with
neighbors' fields) I have a metric ****load less raking.


One solar array catches an opening between the trees
before noon, the other after it. I used an extra freestanding HF panel
to find a convenient area for the new panels where I can get power
from 8AM to 2PM though it's not a good spot for a permanent mount.


Just hope you don't have a branch come down and poke through them.
Impermanent placement sucks. Moving things twice daily is a PITA.
What are your future plans mounting and expansion?


After the leaves fall there's sun all day, filtered somewhat by bare
branches. I already have enough solar power to keep my vehicle and
backup batteries topped off but this last storm and run time test
showed how dependent I am on a generator if I can't keep food cold
outdoors.


You'll get enough power on a bright day (in the shade) to top off your
batteries, but even a small amount of real shade kills a full panel's
voltage and current. I haven't yet experienced this, but I've seen it
demonstrated often enough in vids on Djutube. Oddly, I wasn't
inclined to fool around with the little HF system. I just installed
it and tested it. But I put in 4 little concrete reinforcements for
the base and another under the batteries, so I guess I was done for
those days. All that research first must have filled the need to play,
measure, and chart.

--
In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings
we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to
our efforts.
-- Peter McWilliams
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On Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:02:23 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..


Yup, but they can give you a whole lot more usable power on larger
systems. I intend to expand this 1kW system to 6kW at some time in
the future, so I should probably buy that Outback before more


Oops, I meant MidNite Solar Classic 150-SL @ about the same price.


panels.
So, with the new 100w panel, are you now only up to 145w
(theoretical)?


I have around 200W now and ordered another 200W.


Oh, good. You're inching toward real power, good for something more
than a 5" tv, am/fm radio, or LED lighting.



The limitation on
solar here is large shade trees that cut my air conditioning bill to
$5 a month.


But if you have solar, you can generate your own free electrons. Are
the trees on your lot/cuttable? IMHO, shade is extremely overrated,
except when you want to sit outside in the spring/fall, in which case
you need precisely one tall shrub or small tree. I took down 4 large
trees and I sure don't miss the trouble they caused. I no longer have
trouble mowing and with only 3 trees left (1 constantly shedding
Redwood and 2 deciduous at the property lines, sharing the bounty with
neighbors' fields) I have a metric ****load less raking.


One solar array catches an opening between the trees
before noon, the other after it. I used an extra freestanding HF panel
to find a convenient area for the new panels where I can get power
from 8AM to 2PM though it's not a good spot for a permanent mount.


Just hope you don't have a branch come down and poke through them.
Impermanent placement sucks. Moving things twice daily is a PITA.
What are your future plans mounting and expansion?


After the leaves fall there's sun all day, filtered somewhat by bare
branches. I already have enough solar power to keep my vehicle and
backup batteries topped off but this last storm and run time test
showed how dependent I am on a generator if I can't keep food cold
outdoors.


You'll get enough power on a bright day (in the shade) to top off your
batteries, but even a small amount of real shade kills a full panel's
voltage and current.


That is true of some panels One of the technologies is worse than
the other - ac't remember the terminology - and good panels have
schotky bypass diodes that will allow the panel to produce reduced
voltage instead of going totally off-line when a portion is shaded.

I haven't yet experienced this, but I've seen it
demonstrated often enough in vids on Djutube. Oddly, I wasn't
inclined to fool around with the little HF system. I just installed
it and tested it. But I put in 4 little concrete reinforcements for
the base and another under the batteries, so I guess I was done for
those days. All that research first must have filled the need to play,
measure, and chart.


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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
One solar array catches an opening between the trees
before noon, the other after it. I used an extra freestanding HF
panel
to find a convenient area for the new panels where I can get power
from 8AM to 2PM though it's not a good spot for a permanent mount.


Just hope you don't have a branch come down and poke through them.
Impermanent placement sucks. Moving things twice daily is a PITA.
What are your future plans mounting and expansion?


It's still a backup for outages, until I set up outdoor battery
storage and can let them charge more quickly to the equalization and
gassing voltage. Limiting the battery voltage to non-gassing 13.6V as
the APC1400 SmartUPS does extends the recharge time past one day. I
think I can get away with a partial recharge for a week or so by using
a generator and my 24V 20A welding transformer charger to make up
solar shortages.

Speaking of falling branches, last Sunday's storm brought down two
full grown oaks and the top of a third among my sheds out back without
doing more than dent the edges of the corrugated roofs as the trees
landed right beside and between them.
-jsw


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On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 22:23:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
One solar array catches an opening between the trees
before noon, the other after it. I used an extra freestanding HF
panel
to find a convenient area for the new panels where I can get power
from 8AM to 2PM though it's not a good spot for a permanent mount.


Just hope you don't have a branch come down and poke through them.
Impermanent placement sucks. Moving things twice daily is a PITA.
What are your future plans mounting and expansion?


It's still a backup for outages, until I set up outdoor battery
storage and can let them charge more quickly to the equalization and
gassing voltage. Limiting the battery voltage to non-gassing 13.6V as
the APC1400 SmartUPS does extends the recharge time past one day. I
think I can get away with a partial recharge for a week or so by using
a generator and my 24V 20A welding transformer charger to make up
solar shortages.


Yes, charging outdoors does allow your hydrogen producers to avoid the
lebenty seben different sparky things inside the home. I'll surround
my batteries with batts of fiberglass, vent the box with a screened 2"
hole top and bottom, and allow charging and discharging to keep them
from freezing. It's easier here than there, as we have a nicer
(non-Global Warming, kumbaya) climate. I'll be running in (mostly) DC
mode until I put up a second+ kW, expand my battery bank, and get a
real inverter. The 2kW HF inverter is 120v only and is semi-sine. :-/
I'll call Carrier today and ask if the Infinity will run on it.


Speaking of falling branches, last Sunday's storm brought down two
full grown oaks and the top of a third among my sheds out back without
doing more than dent the edges of the corrugated roofs as the trees
landed right beside and between them.


Congrats, you got lucky and dodged yet another bullet, and now have
enough additional firewood for 3-6 more years. After you put in the
week to process it and a year to age.

--
In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings
we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to
our efforts.
-- Peter McWilliams
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
What are your future plans mounting and expansion?


It's still a backup for outages, ...


The problem I see with solar power is the lifespan cost of the
batteries. If I pay $100 for a battery that stores 1 KWH, i.e. 83A-h
at 12V, and it lasts 500 cycles at full discharge or 1000 at 50% DOD
the operating cost is $0.20 per KWH of "free" electricity, more than
grid power even here where it's up at $0.19.

OTOH if I buy that battery for emergency backup I want it to last as
long as possible and so won't cycle it very often or very far, except
to confirm that it's still able to run the fridge overnight.

The compromise I want to try is to have enough solar power to fix
lunch, watch the TV news and browse the net at noon without drawing
much from the batteries. I've been experimenting with a 300W rice
cooker as a general-purpose heating appliance. The outside doesn't
warm up and waste heat. It does get hot enough to boil over so I may
loan it a thermocouple and temperature controller.
-jsw




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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 22:23:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
Yes, charging outdoors does allow your hydrogen producers to avoid
the
lebenty seben different sparky things inside the home.


One of my tasks as battery test tech at [not Segway] was sparking
freshly charged lead acid batteries to see if the engineer's venting
schemes worked (NOT!). A hydrogen meter found it everywhere including
the lowest point in the building.

The gave me a circuit board antistatic bin to contain the blast. The
engineer thought it was a dishpan.
-jsw


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On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 10:43:15 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 22:23:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
Yes, charging outdoors does allow your hydrogen producers to avoid
the
lebenty seben different sparky things inside the home.


One of my tasks as battery test tech at [not Segway] was sparking
freshly charged lead acid batteries to see if the engineer's venting
schemes worked (NOT!). A hydrogen meter found it everywhere including
the lowest point in the building.

The gave me a circuit board antistatic bin to contain the blast. The
engineer thought it was a dishpan.
-jsw


LOWEST point? That was either a heluva lot of hydrogen, or one crappy ventilation system.
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On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:43:24 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 22:23:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
Yes, charging outdoors does allow your hydrogen producers to avoid
the
lebenty seben different sparky things inside the home.


One of my tasks as battery test tech at [not Segway] was sparking
freshly charged lead acid batteries to see if the engineer's venting
schemes worked (NOT!).


Sure! What's the worst that could happen?


A hydrogen meter found it everywhere including
the lowest point in the building.


Lowest point, with hydrogen's buoyancy? Interesting. Was it a small
amount which had been fluffed around by fast-moving air, or what?


The gave me a circuit board antistatic bin to contain the blast. The
engineer thought it was a dishpan.


I hope they also gave you a rubber apron, shoulder length nitrile
gloves, face mask, and goggles.

--
In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings
we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to
our efforts.
-- Peter McWilliams
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On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:18:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
What are your future plans mounting and expansion?


It's still a backup for outages, ...


The problem I see with solar power is the lifespan cost of the
batteries. If I pay $100 for a battery that stores 1 KWH, i.e. 83A-h
at 12V, and it lasts 500 cycles at full discharge or 1000 at 50% DOD
the operating cost is $0.20 per KWH of "free" electricity, more than
grid power even here where it's up at $0.19.


No, solar ain't cheap, but it buys self-sufficiency, and a normal-as-
possible life during power outages. Good PV batteries can last a
decade. Trojan and Rolls-Surette seem to be two very good brands with
long histories and experience. I'm looking at Trojan 6-volters:
T105-RE ($532/4 Amazon) and L16RE-B ($1352 for 4 @ Amazon via a vendor
who has outlets in each state/free "local" pickup. I think mine is
Medford, 30 miles down I-5.) A Vegas vendor wanted $1572 + $1600 to
ship last year, so run away from Batteries In A Flash. Anyway,
they're 225 and 370Ah each, respectively.


OTOH if I buy that battery for emergency backup I want it to last as
long as possible and so won't cycle it very often or very far, except
to confirm that it's still able to run the fridge overnight.


_A_ battery? Banks are needed for power, and to finance the
batteries. :-/


The compromise I want to try is to have enough solar power to fix
lunch, watch the TV news and browse the net at noon without drawing


Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the regional
power is down for days/weeks?


much from the batteries. I've been experimenting with a 300W rice
cooker as a general-purpose heating appliance. The outside doesn't
warm up and waste heat. It does get hot enough to boil over so I may
loan it a thermocouple and temperature controller.


What do you mean by "general-purpose heating appliance"? Are you
using/going to be using it for heating air, water, and food, or what?

Air alternative: Pick up a couple of the $10 12v car heaters from HF.
About 150w each, and enough to warm up a tent in a hurry, combined
with our 100-120w human bodies. http://tinyurl.com/ybyq6nx4

I use my rice cooker with the steamer top ($50 304-stainless-bowl
model from Miracle, http://tinyurl.com/yas3umjn ) to cook up enough
rice and veggies for a week's dinners in 20 minutes. Love those
things. This is my 4th cooker in 45 years.

--
In reality, serendipity accounts for one percent of the blessings
we receive in life, work and love. The other 99 percent is due to
our efforts.
-- Peter McWilliams
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On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the regional
power is down for days/weeks?


I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a disappointingly short time.


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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:18:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
...
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
OTOH if I buy that battery for emergency backup I want it to last as
long as possible and so won't cycle it very often or very far,
except
to confirm that it's still able to run the fridge overnight.


_A_ battery? Banks are needed for power, and to finance the
batteries. :-/


That was an example, similar to what Batteries Plus recently quoted to
me.

The compromise I want to try is to have enough solar power to fix
lunch, watch the TV news and browse the net at noon without drawing


Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?


So far the TV stations and the landline and cellular services have
stayed up on their batteries and generators. The Northeast has to
prepare for both tropical hurricanes (TS Sandy) in summer and arctic
ice storms in winter. I have both 3G and 4G wireless internet.

Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian hydro.

much from the batteries. I've been experimenting with a 300W rice
cooker as a general-purpose heating appliance. The outside doesn't
warm up and waste heat. It does get hot enough to boil over so I may
loan it a thermocouple and temperature controller.


What do you mean by "general-purpose heating appliance"? Are you
using/going to be using it for heating air, water, and food, or
what?


Food-heating. I didn't write 'cooking' because it doesn't get hot
enough to fry.

Air alternative: Pick up a couple of the $10 12v car heaters from
HF.
About 150w each, and enough to warm up a tent in a hurry, combined
with our 100-120w human bodies. http://tinyurl.com/ybyq6nx4


Wood stove, remember?


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rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the regional
power is down for days/weeks?


I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a disappointingly short time.




Do you have any idea how much power it takes to run a CATV
distribution system? Those pole mounted power transformers are a 60V,
30A modified square wave from a Constant Voltage Transformer.

That is 1800 VA, continuous, and typically powers about a half mile
of CATV system. How much do you want to be added to your bill, to extend
that three hour design?
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"Michael A Terrell" wrote in message
...
rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?


I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time
Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a
disappointingly short time.




Do you have any idea how much power it takes to run a CATV
distribution system? Those pole mounted power transformers are a
60V, 30A modified square wave from a Constant Voltage Transformer.

That is 1800 VA, continuous, and typically powers about a half
mile of CATV system. How much do you want to be added to your bill,
to extend that three hour design?


It takes that much power to deliver 0dBmV to each house?

-jsw


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"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?


I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time
Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a
disappointingly short time.


The neighbors tell me they lose Xfinity TV and phone during outages,
but not cell service. I no longer ask utilities much about their
infrastructure because it arouses suspicions.


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On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:45:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:18:53 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news "Larry Jaques" wrote in
message
...
On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:18:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
OTOH if I buy that battery for emergency backup I want it to last as
long as possible and so won't cycle it very often or very far,
except
to confirm that it's still able to run the fridge overnight.


_A_ battery? Banks are needed for power, and to finance the
batteries. :-/


That was an example, similar to what Batteries Plus recently quoted to
me.

The compromise I want to try is to have enough solar power to fix
lunch, watch the TV news and browse the net at noon without drawing


Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?


So far the TV stations and the landline and cellular services have
stayed up on their batteries and generators. The Northeast has to
prepare for both tropical hurricanes (TS Sandy) in summer and arctic
ice storms in winter. I have both 3G and 4G wireless internet.

Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian hydro.


Aren't Leftists wonderful? No to this, no to that, no to the other,
then SAVE ME from everything--after they've hosed any systems which
could have.

Maybe we need two governments. One large one to serve just the
Leftists covered by massive taxes paid only by them, then a small one
to serve the actual Americans, with few taxes paid only by us.


much from the batteries. I've been experimenting with a 300W rice
cooker as a general-purpose heating appliance. The outside doesn't
warm up and waste heat. It does get hot enough to boil over so I may
loan it a thermocouple and temperature controller.


What do you mean by "general-purpose heating appliance"? Are you
using/going to be using it for heating air, water, and food, or
what?


Food-heating. I didn't write 'cooking' because it doesn't get hot
enough to fry.


OK.


Air alternative: Pick up a couple of the $10 12v car heaters from
HF.
About 150w each, and enough to warm up a tent in a hurry, combined
with our 100-120w human bodies. http://tinyurl.com/ybyq6nx4


Wood stove, remember?


Evidently not. sigh But if you wanted to camp out in your living
room...

--
America rose from abnormal origina. The nation didn't grow organ-
ically or gradually from indigenous tribes--like, say, the French
or the Poles--but emerged out of courageous, conscious acts of
will by Pilgrims and Patriots. --Michael Medved, Right Turns


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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:45:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near
the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian hydro.


Aren't Leftists wonderful? No to this, no to that, no to the other,
then SAVE ME from everything--after they've hosed any systems which
could have.

Maybe we need two governments. One large one to serve just the
Leftists covered by massive taxes paid only by them, then a small
one
to serve the actual Americans, with few taxes paid only by us.


The government they long for would ship their useless butts to the
gulag.


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On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:45:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near
the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian hydro.


Aren't Leftists wonderful? No to this, no to that, no to the other,
then SAVE ME from everything--after they've hosed any systems which
could have.

Maybe we need two governments. One large one to serve just the
Leftists covered by massive taxes paid only by them, then a small
one
to serve the actual Americans, with few taxes paid only by us.


The government they long for would ship their useless butts to the
gulag.


_Forbes_ says that Maine's power problem is the grid, not generation:

[Nov. 5, 2017]

"Nearly half of the people living in Maine spent a significant part of
last week in the dark after a storm caused widespread power outages.

"Central Maine Power, a subsidiary of the Spanish utility holding
company Avangrid, reported an estimated 400,000 customer accounts –
more than 60% of the utility’s customer base – were without service on
Monday...

"...Solar companies did not cause the prolonged power outage in Maine.
Neither did deregulation. CMP did. Yes, the same utility company with
the slogan "Flip a switch and we're there."

"Contrary to what one would suspect based on the slogan, CMP’s
incompetence and lack of planning turned what should have been a short
power outage into a prolonged and painful experience. The mega-scale
utility projects proposed by CMP and supported by LePage’s
administration would not have made an iota of difference.

"The CMP Maine Power Reliability Program (MPRP) certainly did not keep
the lights on in Maine despite the program’s $1.4 billion price tag."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress
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On Nov 9, 2017, Ed Huntress wrote
(in ):

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:45:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near
the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian hydro.

Aren't Leftists wonderful? No to this, no to that, no to the other,
then SAVE ME from everything--after they've hosed any systems which
could have.

Maybe we need two governments. One large one to serve just the
Leftists covered by massive taxes paid only by them, then a small
one
to serve the actual Americans, with few taxes paid only by us.


The government they long for would ship their useless butts to the
gulag.


_Forbes_ says that Maine's power problem is the grid, not generation:

[Nov. 5, 2017]

"Nearly half of the people living in Maine spent a significant part of
last week in the dark after a storm caused widespread power outages.

"Central Maine Power, a subsidiary of the Spanish utility holding
company Avangrid, reported an estimated 400,000 customer accounts €“
more than 60% of the utilitys customer base €“ were without service on
Monday...

"...Solar companies did not cause the prolonged power outage in Maine.
Neither did deregulation. CMP did. Yes, the same utility company with
the slogan "Flip a switch and we're there."

"Contrary to what one would suspect based on the slogan, CMPs
incompetence and lack of planning turned what should have been a short
power outage into a prolonged and painful experience. The mega-scale
utility projects proposed by CMP and supported by LePages
administration would not have made an iota of difference.

"The CMP Maine Power Reliability Program (MPRP) certainly did not keep
the lights on in Maine despite the programs $1.4 billion price tag."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/william...ers-should-be-
outraged-over-worst-power-outage-in-maines-history/#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?


Not enough information to tell.

However, I read the Forbes article to imply that there had been decades of
deferred maintenance on Maines power distribution system, and MPRP was the
funding vehicle chosen to make the down payment of bringing the distribition
system up to snuff.

In Puerto Rico, they had the same problem, but no MPRP equivalent, and the
hurricanes blew the existing ramshackle system into the sea. Total
replacement is underway. Probably take a year.

Fortunate for Maine that they are too far North for real hurricanes.

Joe Gwinn

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On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 14:46:39 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

On Nov 9, 2017, Ed Huntress wrote
(in ):

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:45:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near
the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian hydro.

Aren't Leftists wonderful? No to this, no to that, no to the other,
then SAVE ME from everything--after they've hosed any systems which
could have.

Maybe we need two governments. One large one to serve just the
Leftists covered by massive taxes paid only by them, then a small
one
to serve the actual Americans, with few taxes paid only by us.

The government they long for would ship their useless butts to the
gulag.


_Forbes_ says that Maine's power problem is the grid, not generation:

[Nov. 5, 2017]

"Nearly half of the people living in Maine spent a significant part of
last week in the dark after a storm caused widespread power outages.

"Central Maine Power, a subsidiary of the Spanish utility holding
company Avangrid, reported an estimated 400,000 customer accounts –
more than 60% of the utility’s customer base – were without service on
Monday...

"...Solar companies did not cause the prolonged power outage in Maine.
Neither did deregulation. CMP did. Yes, the same utility company with
the slogan "Flip a switch and we're there."

"Contrary to what one would suspect based on the slogan, CMP’s
incompetence and lack of planning turned what should have been a short
power outage into a prolonged and painful experience. The mega-scale
utility projects proposed by CMP and supported by LePage’s
administration would not have made an iota of difference.

"The CMP Maine Power Reliability Program (MPRP) certainly did not keep
the lights on in Maine despite the program’s $1.4 billion price tag."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/william...ers-should-be-
outraged-over-worst-power-outage-in-maines-history/#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?


Not enough information to tell.


I agree. I thought maybe Jim knows more about it, because he lives
with it.


However, I read the Forbes article to imply that there had been decades of
deferred maintenance on Maine’s power distribution system, and MPRP was the
funding vehicle chosen to make the down payment of bringing the distribition
system up to snuff.

In Puerto Rico, they had the same problem, but no MPRP equivalent, and the
hurricanes blew the existing ramshackle system into the sea. Total
replacement is underway. Probably take a year.

Fortunate for Maine that they are too far North for real hurricanes.

Joe Gwinn


Yup. I'm less than 3 miles from tidewater and 6 miles from Raritan Bay
in NJ. We lost power with Irene in 2011, but it was restored in less
than two days. We never lost power with Sandy.

--
Ed Huntress


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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:45:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Week-long storm outages tend to occur in relatively narrow strips,
like between all snow and all rain, or wind and flood damage near
the
coast. They aren't regional like power generation blackouts which
we
haven't suffered yet, though our safety margin is shrinking due to
political opposition to coal, nuclear, pipelines and Canadian
hydro.

Aren't Leftists wonderful? No to this, no to that, no to the
other,
then SAVE ME from everything--after they've hosed any systems
which
could have.

Maybe we need two governments. One large one to serve just the
Leftists covered by massive taxes paid only by them, then a small
one
to serve the actual Americans, with few taxes paid only by us.


The government they long for would ship their useless butts to the
gulag.


_Forbes_ says that Maine's power problem is the grid, not
generation:

[Nov. 5, 2017]

"Nearly half of the people living in Maine spent a significant part
of
last week in the dark after a storm caused widespread power outages.

"Central Maine Power, a subsidiary of the Spanish utility holding
company Avangrid, reported an estimated 400,000 customer accounts -
more than 60% of the utility's customer base - were without service
on
Monday...

"...Solar companies did not cause the prolonged power outage in
Maine.
Neither did deregulation. CMP did. Yes, the same utility company
with
the slogan "Flip a switch and we're there."

"Contrary to what one would suspect based on the slogan, CMP's
incompetence and lack of planning turned what should have been a
short
power outage into a prolonged and painful experience. The mega-scale
utility projects proposed by CMP and supported by LePage's
administration would not have made an iota of difference.

"The CMP Maine Power Reliability Program (MPRP) certainly did not
keep
the lights on in Maine despite the program's $1.4 billion price
tag."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress



https://globalresilience.northeaster...power-outages/
"Drought conditions across much of Maine may have contributed to the
large numbers of trees that toppled during a storm that walloped the
Northeast this week, officials said."

The more rural areas of New Hampshire are also the slowest to be
restored, as they prioritize the repairs that will help the most
people. Maine is settled one town deep along the coast and much of the
interior is sparsely populated.

-jsw




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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress


William Pentland is a professional agitator.
https://muckrack.com/william-pentland/articles?page=3



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On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:53:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress


William Pentland is a professional agitator.
https://muckrack.com/william-pentland/articles?page=3


Does that mean you disagree that distribution is the problem?

--
Ed Huntress
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On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:29:44 AM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the regional
power is down for days/weeks?


I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a disappointingly short time.




Do you have any idea how much power it takes to run a CATV
distribution system? Those pole mounted power transformers are a 60V,
30A modified square wave from a Constant Voltage Transformer.

That is 1800 VA, continuous, and typically powers about a half mile
of CATV system. How much do you want to be added to your bill, to extend
that three hour design?


Go to your local phone company's central office. Take a look at their backup power and then tell me how I get dial tone for $11/month and it's got enough batteries to last until doomsday, and enough generator & fuel to last till the coming of the messiah.

The cable company can afford some generators, and if they want to raise everyone's bills a couple of bucks a month to cover their cost, I'd be OK with that. I doubt many other people would notice the increase, tiny as it is compared to the cable company's other increases.
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On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 7:21:23 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques
wrote:

[big snip]

Just curious: do you continue to get TV and internet when the
regional
power is down for days/weeks?


I have determined that my cable system (Spectrum, formerly Time
Warner) stays up for five hours after an outage. That's a
disappointingly short time.


The neighbors tell me they lose Xfinity TV and phone during outages,
but not cell service. I no longer ask utilities much about their
infrastructure because it arouses suspicions.


Yes, it does sometimes raise suspicions. I know what I know about the phone system and its backup power because I spent two years contracting for AT&T in about 30 local offices in the NY metro area. Part of my job was verifying power budgets and delivery to AT&T's colocation cages. The stuff they have in those places is impressive, and it works.

My knowledge the cable company power situation is empirically gained. Five hours (give or take a very little) after the power fails, the cable (and data) fail.

More interesting (and I have to get some better contacts to find out more) is the electrical utility. During a major outage, I had a talk with a supervisor. I was wondering why it seemed so damned hard to find the busted wire or blown fuse. You know where the lights are on, you know where the lights are out. Look at a friggin map and fix it. "Not so easy" he said. The notion that there's any sort of "grid" in the local system is just a fantasy. A real diagram would be more like a picture of a bowl of spaghetti. I know, for instance that there are loops and parallels and distributed transformers, etc.

But still, it seems to me that there could be (at the cost of a few bucks each) a transponder in, say, each transformer that would let them know it's got power. Much easier than driving around with a flashlight to look at the poles & wires.

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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:53:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:43:58 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/william.../#104f6b79fc96

What do you think? Are they right?

--
Ed Huntress


William Pentland is a professional agitator.
https://muckrack.com/william-pentland/articles?page=3


Does that mean you disagree that distribution is the problem?

--
Ed Huntress


The storm blew down trees that broke power lines and poles, so in that
sense distribution was a problem. The bucket trucks have a safe wind
limit of 35(??) MPH which the last storm exceeded all the next day,
delaying restoration. The news said a crew could install two poles per
day. One of their anchors took Pole Climbing 101 and demonstrated that
he already has the right job.

A crew had just trimmed the trees near the lines here a week before
but they don't touch trees on private property that are further back.
I did ask.
https://www.eversource.com/Content/g.../tree-trimming

Eversource serves NH, MA and CT but not Maine, so I know nothing of
conditions there. Eversource brings in crews from all over the
Northeast and some from Canada to repair damage quickly, and loans
crews out for their problems. I think I've seen a truck from Ohio.
Smaller independents are slower to restore power.

Eversource has crews on standby for another windstorm tonight.

-jsw


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