On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:30:59 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:02:50 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:32:36 -0400, wrote:


Likewize. I think all CKs had the shuttle shift.

I think I remember reading in the manual that some didn't. And the
trans on mine indicates a reverse position that doesn't seem to exist.
I presume that's there for models without the shuttle. Anyway, I can
tell you it's a pain to replace that shuttle gear assembly. Not
terribly difficult, just a pain. Sure is nice to have it back working
though. How bad are your brakes? Mine look good inside, but are barely
adequate to keep the machine from rolling backwards on a 10% grade. I
keep the bucket flipped and low in case of emergency.

The brakes are great. No problem locking up the wheels.

Are they bands on drums, with a cam assist to a flat plate?

How can the
shuttle shift work without a torque converter?

Clutch.

When my CK gets low on
transmission fluid it takes forever for it to warm up enough to move.
I need to fill it way above the full mark on the dipstick for it to
move as soon as I start it. I think it may have the wrong dipstick.
Also weird is that the engine NEVER gets low on oil. And it's not gas
leaking past the rings keeping the oil level up.

No trans fluid. Just gear oil in the torque tube and trans.

It must be a leak
between the engine and the transmission unit that is filling the
engine very slowly with transmission fluid.

Bummer.

I have been having trouble
getting the carb adjustment right. Found out why. There is about 1/16"
play in the throttle shaft where it goes through the back side of the
carb. This winter the carb is coming off so I can rebuild it.
Eric

Yeah, I crudely bushed mine and added some o rings to take up space.
Runs decent but not perfect, hard to know if it was ever much better.
Hand throttle was terrible until I fixed a seized cross shaft linkage
for the foot throttle. Took a whole afternoon including some lathe
work, but was worth it to have a foot throttle.

Have you seen this?
http://www.earthmoversmagazine.co.uk...3-1024x680.jpg
Mine is not quite so shiny. Hoe is different on mine, lift
cylinder is buried in the boom.

Oops, just realized I've been talking 530 and you guys 580. That
explains why you have brakes, and I have brake simulators.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:29:37 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Path: not-for-mail
Subject: mini backhoe
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
References:






Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag1: yes
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag2: yes
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag3: yep
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag4: you bet
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag5: stupid cocksucker
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag6: stupid cocksucker and THIEF
From: Gunner Asch
Organization: right-wing knuckle-dragging ****bags
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On 10/16/2017 1:14 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 12:54:57 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Hey, Wieber! Why aren't you posting the "headers" any longer?

Because Ive already established that you are a buffoonish and ignorant
****bag.

Was there anything else you needed to know?

Plink

Gunner

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 10/16/2017 6:26 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:29:37 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Path: not-for-mail
Subject: mini backhoe
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
References:






Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag1: yes
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag2: yes
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag3: yep
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag4: you bet
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag5: stupid cocksucker
Mark-Wieber-Is-A-Thief-And-****bag6: stupid cocksucker and THIEF

LOL!


From: Gunner Asch
Organization: right-wing knuckle-dragging ****bags
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On 10/16/2017 1:14 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 12:54:57 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Hey, Wieber! Why aren't you posting the "headers" any longer?

Because Ive already established that I am a buffoonish and ignorant
****bag.

You sure have, Wieber! The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does
it, ****flaps?

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:47:26 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:32:36 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 08:53:42 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 23:02:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 15:33:16 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make a mini backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding on the grounds that I will.

Before starting in on how I should just buy a real backhoe, let me say I do not need a real backhoe. I can really get by with just using a shovel. But a mini backhoe that would be say 3 times as fast as just using a shovel appeals to me.

I have thought about building a tiny mini backhoe, but the cost would be nearly the same as a some what bigger machine. The hydraulic cylinders and hydraulic valves are the major expense and they would not be significantly less for a tiny backhoe.

I purchased the plan that are on Ebay for $13.99 and are not real happy with them. Most of the drawings are three dimensional showing all the hidden lines. And most dimensions are in the text. And the pages all have the same title block. But I did not pay a lot so can not expect a lot.

I am hoping to collect most of the material ( not including hydraulics ) from the local scrap yard. I am intending to put the engine, hydraulic pump, filter and tank as a unit with quick disconnects. So I can remove that part and connect it to a log splitter or what ever. And hope to find a boat trailer at the scrap yard to supply the wheels. I have already bought some 3/16 rectangular 4 by 3 inch tubing for the booms and chassis. All in pieces only 4 feet long, but I have a welder. I also have some cut offs of 1 inch rod and some 1" bronze bushings.

So what I would like is comments. Especially from anyone that has built a mini backhoe. Good sources for hydraulic cylinders and valves would be nice. The Surplus Center is already bookmarked. Things to avoid would be nice.

Oh yes, I am thinking about using my feet to swivel the boom instead of of using a hydraulic cylinder. It seems like that might be okay to do. Maybe have a plan on how to add power to swivel the boom if using my feet is too much work. Or maybe figure out a way to use car clutch and brake parts to swivel the boom. I am sure there will be comments on that idea.

Dan
Greetings Dan,
Forget the foot powered swing. To get any real work done you will
need to swing the hoe back and forth A LOT. I am by no means a
backhoe expert but I do have many hours on mine. For a while I had
some problems that made the boom swing slow and it was maddening. I
was used to the much faster swing that it had when I fist bought it.
Now that it swings fast again I really appreciate it. Furthermore,
even though running my backhoe only requires pulling or pushing levers
or foot pedals it is still tiring work if done for long. Having to
swing even a small boom when fully extended will be hard to do very
many times.
Also, cylinder size is important. A friend of mine has a backhoe
smaller than mine on the back of his Case. My Case is a 580 CK and his
is the next size down. My backhoe was made by Case to fit my tractor.
My friend's is an aftermarket unit that is sort of a universal fit
type. On his they scrimped on the cylinder size to save money. To get
enough power his runs a higher pressure than mine. The upshot is that
his machine is more jerky, the smaller high pressure cylinders move
quickly and are harder to control. Even though my machine moves as
fast as his it is easier to control. We both noticed this.
Finally, don't build a machine that has you rotating with the
boom. My friend's add on backhoe works like this and all the back and
forth wears you out.
I LOVE my backhoe. Even though it is pretty worn out it still does
a lot of work much faster than I ever could. I bought it to install my
septic system. After doing that I have built a road on my property ,
fixed another road, buried my neighbor's horse, dug the water, power
and phone ditches to my house and shop, dug up several big stumps with
their associated root systems, and just last weekend planted 7 pretty
big cedar trees. All these jobs required the backhoe. And using the
backhoe is fun. Using the loader is fun too but there is something
cool about being able to dig a hole 10 feet deep in a short time.
Watching the dipper rip out big roots in seconds that would take all
day to dig and chop out by hand is really cool.
Eric
Pretty hard to beat an old Construction King Backhoe Loader unit.
They were really DESIGNED as a backhoe
Mine has the Shuttle Shift feature too. And it's gas powered so I
don't have to smell diesel fumes. A deisel engine would probably be
better but the smell makes me sick to my stomach.
Eric
Likewize. I think all CKs had the shuttle shift.
They didn't. My friend's CK oes not. The shuttle shift is weird. There
is a torque converter as well as a clutch in the tractor. So to change
gears requires stepping on the clutch but forward to reverse and back
is just done by moving the lever. I have only the vaguest idea how it
all works inside but I love it. I had never even sat on a backhoe when
I bought mine. Took some learning to run it passably well. But man, is
it ever fun.
Eric
Every CK we had on the lot back when I worked on industrial equipment
had the shuttle so I ASS U MEd it was standard equip

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:53:17 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:30:59 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:02:50 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:32:36 -0400, wrote:


Likewize. I think all CKs had the shuttle shift.

I think I remember reading in the manual that some didn't. And the
trans on mine indicates a reverse position that doesn't seem to exist.
I presume that's there for models without the shuttle. Anyway, I can
tell you it's a pain to replace that shuttle gear assembly. Not
terribly difficult, just a pain. Sure is nice to have it back working
though. How bad are your brakes? Mine look good inside, but are barely
adequate to keep the machine from rolling backwards on a 10% grade. I
keep the bucket flipped and low in case of emergency.

The brakes are great. No problem locking up the wheels.

Are they bands on drums, with a cam assist to a flat plate?

How can the
shuttle shift work without a torque converter?

Clutch.

When my CK gets low on
transmission fluid it takes forever for it to warm up enough to move.
I need to fill it way above the full mark on the dipstick for it to
move as soon as I start it. I think it may have the wrong dipstick.
Also weird is that the engine NEVER gets low on oil. And it's not gas
leaking past the rings keeping the oil level up.

No trans fluid. Just gear oil in the torque tube and trans.

It must be a leak
between the engine and the transmission unit that is filling the
engine very slowly with transmission fluid.

Bummer.

I have been having trouble
getting the carb adjustment right. Found out why. There is about 1/16"
play in the throttle shaft where it goes through the back side of the
carb. This winter the carb is coming off so I can rebuild it.
Eric

Yeah, I crudely bushed mine and added some o rings to take up space.
Runs decent but not perfect, hard to know if it was ever much better.
Hand throttle was terrible until I fixed a seized cross shaft linkage
for the foot throttle. Took a whole afternoon including some lathe
work, but was worth it to have a foot throttle.

Have you seen this?
http://www.earthmoversmagazine.co.uk...3-1024x680.jpg
Mine is not quite so shiny. Hoe is different on mine, lift
cylinder is buried in the boom.

Oops, just realized I've been talking 530 and you guys 580. That
explains why you have brakes, and I have brake simulators.
Do you step on the clutch to use shuttle shift? Mine is just a lever
on the steering column. My brakes are the shoe/disc combination.
Where the shoe stops one disc from rotating which causes the balls to
climb the ramp which presses on the disc. I guess it's a good way to
amplify foot pressure in a purely mechanical way. But they are prone
to locking up.
Eric

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:14:10 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:53:17 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

Oops, just realized I've been talking 530 and you guys 580. That
explains why you have brakes, and I have brake simulators.

Do you step on the clutch to use shuttle shift?

Yes. It has a neutral position which I had to use the other day
because the transmission won't go into neutral or 1st. I think one of
the shift forks has come out of its groove. Couldn't have happened
unless something's wrong with the shifter, which wouldn't surprise me.
Shuttle cover looks like this
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...OL-COVER-0WVC/
Left lever is forward-reverse, right lever is high-low range.

Mine is just a lever
on the steering column.

On mine the forward reverse shuttle is a mechanical shifter on the top
of the torque tube. Here's a parts breakdown of the entire assembly.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...-HOUSING-0WVZ/
I replaced the subassembly 8A. I see that the same thing is used on
some 580s.

My brakes are the shoe/disc combination.
Where the shoe stops one disc from rotating which causes the balls to
climb the ramp which presses on the disc.

Sounds like mine is the same arrangement.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...E-SYSTEM-0WCr/
It's not a shoe though, but a band around a drum. I cleaned
everything, lightly greased the balls, and adjusted. It works Ok on
the level, but is really crap when I'm pointed up a steep hill and
stopped trying to shift gears. I figured it surely must have worked
better when new, but a friend who knows these tractors from the old
days told me the brakes were never any good. Based on your experience
though, I'll give everything a more critical look next time it's
apart.

Ed, if you're reading this, please give your opinion on the
arrangement. The plate 35 presses against the inside of the housing.
It seems to me that the cam/ball/disc thing can only be effective IF
the band is effective, which makes it a dubious idea. Ever known
anything else that uses such a system?

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:31:55 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:14:10 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:53:17 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

Oops, just realized I've been talking 530 and you guys 580. That
explains why you have brakes, and I have brake simulators.

Do you step on the clutch to use shuttle shift?

Yes. It has a neutral position which I had to use the other day
because the transmission won't go into neutral or 1st. I think one of
the shift forks has come out of its groove. Couldn't have happened
unless something's wrong with the shifter, which wouldn't surprise me.
Shuttle cover looks like this
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...OL-COVER-0WVC/
Left lever is forward-reverse, right lever is high-low range.

Mine is just a lever
on the steering column.

On mine the forward reverse shuttle is a mechanical shifter on the top
of the torque tube. Here's a parts breakdown of the entire assembly.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...-HOUSING-0WVZ/
I replaced the subassembly 8A. I see that the same thing is used on
some 580s.

My brakes are the shoe/disc combination.
Where the shoe stops one disc from rotating which causes the balls to
climb the ramp which presses on the disc.

Sounds like mine is the same arrangement.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...E-SYSTEM-0WCr/
It's not a shoe though, but a band around a drum. I cleaned
everything, lightly greased the balls, and adjusted. It works Ok on
the level, but is really crap when I'm pointed up a steep hill and
stopped trying to shift gears. I figured it surely must have worked
better when new, but a friend who knows these tractors from the old
days told me the brakes were never any good. Based on your experience
though, I'll give everything a more critical look next time it's
apart.

Ed, if you're reading this, please give your opinion on the
arrangement. The plate 35 presses against the inside of the housing.
It seems to me that the cam/ball/disc thing can only be effective IF
the band is effective, which makes it a dubious idea. Ever known
anything else that uses such a system?

Wphew, you're really asking the wrong guy. It looks to me like the
balls ride on ramps, and the drum would have to be clutched to a stop
(by the band), or nearly so, for the balls to ride up the ramps and
put pressure on the discs, right? It looks like the balls are part of
a freewheeling clutch.

If I'm reading it right, then I agree: I can't see any other way you
could apply pressure to the discs.

Transmissions like this are outside of my realm of experience.
However, that balls-riding-up-ramp thing, if that's what it is, is a
type of freesheeling/overrunning clutch that has been used in
machinery for decades -- maybe 100 years. Saab had one in their
original 2-stroke-engine cars, but the balls were arranged around the
outside of a cam and pressed against the inside of a wheel, IIRC.
Also, if my memory is working, I think that Harleys have a face-ramp
type somewhere in their power train.

Such freewheeling clutches are known to be problems when they get
worn. But, again, I'm making some guesses based on that vague
illustration.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:45:14 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:31:55 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

Sounds like mine is the same arrangement.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...E-SYSTEM-0WCr/
It's not a shoe though, but a band around a drum. I cleaned
everything, lightly greased the balls, and adjusted. It works Ok on
the level, but is really crap when I'm pointed up a steep hill and
stopped trying to shift gears. I figured it surely must have worked
better when new, but a friend who knows these tractors from the old
days told me the brakes were never any good. Based on your experience
though, I'll give everything a more critical look next time it's
apart.

Ed, if you're reading this, please give your opinion on the
arrangement. The plate 35 presses against the inside of the housing.
It seems to me that the cam/ball/disc thing can only be effective IF
the band is effective, which makes it a dubious idea. Ever known
anything else that uses such a system?

Wphew, you're really asking the wrong guy. It looks to me like the
balls ride on ramps, and the drum would have to be clutched to a stop
(by the band), or nearly so, for the balls to ride up the ramps and
put pressure on the discs, right?

Exactly. I suppose it's supposed to multiply the effect of the band.
Except that the band is wimpy, and unless it's gripping sufficiently,
there isn't much pressure on the balls and the plate.

It looks like the balls are part of
a freewheeling clutch.

It's a very primitive manual brake system. One housing outboard on
each side of the transmission. Here are some pics

guts http://www.hagantractorparts.com/CaseBrakeAssembly.jpg

In this one, you can see the left brake housing just ahead of the rear
axle housing. The disc pushes against the outboard face of the
housing.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/f...mg_1620_rs-jpg

Here's one that's a little more true to life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ractor0002.jpg
Brake housing is just below the guy's hand. Comes off easily, bands
stay with the housing. Then the drum with the disc and balls slides
off the output shaft. Points given for being easy to work on but it's
quite a bit of iron considering the anemic performance.

On 10/17/2017 2:45 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:31:55 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:14:10 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:53:17 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:
Oops, just realized I've been talking 530 and you guys 580. That
explains why you have brakes, and I have brake simulators.
Do you step on the clutch to use shuttle shift?
Yes. It has a neutral position which I had to use the other day
because the transmission won't go into neutral or 1st. I think one of
the shift forks has come out of its groove. Couldn't have happened
unless something's wrong with the shifter, which wouldn't surprise me.
Shuttle cover looks like this
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...OL-COVER-0WVC/
Left lever is forward-reverse, right lever is high-low range.

Mine is just a lever
on the steering column.
On mine the forward reverse shuttle is a mechanical shifter on the top
of the torque tube. Here's a parts breakdown of the entire assembly.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...-HOUSING-0WVZ/
I replaced the subassembly 8A. I see that the same thing is used on
some 580s.

My brakes are the shoe/disc combination.
Where the shoe stops one disc from rotating which causes the balls to
climb the ramp which presses on the disc.
Sounds like mine is the same arrangement.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...E-SYSTEM-0WCr/
It's not a shoe though, but a band around a drum. I cleaned
everything, lightly greased the balls, and adjusted. It works Ok on
the level, but is really crap when I'm pointed up a steep hill and
stopped trying to shift gears. I figured it surely must have worked
better when new, but a friend who knows these tractors from the old
days told me the brakes were never any good. Based on your experience
though, I'll give everything a more critical look next time it's
apart.

Ed, if you're reading this, please give your opinion on the
arrangement. The plate 35 presses against the inside of the housing.
It seems to me that the cam/ball/disc thing can only be effective IF
the band is effective, which makes it a dubious idea. Ever known
anything else that uses such a system?
Also, if my memory is working, I think that Harleys have a face-ramp
type somewhere in their power train.


Â* Yup , rotating ramp and balls to disengage the clutch via a pushrod
thru the hollow trans mainshaft .

Â* --

Â* Snag

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I have about the same tools as you do. Well not a real mill, just a
drill mill. And I will probably make a wood model or two. I do have
plans but am not sure how good they are. And do have a real backhoe
not too far away that I can look at. Your front end loader convinced
me that it was possible for me to build a mini backhoe.

Dan
===========================

My loader would have been significantly more expensive if I didn't
have a lathe to modify cheap second-hand parts.

Working on a custom (not mine) snowplow mount this afternoon reminded
me that it would be very nice to have a long shank reamer that cuts on
the pull to align holes in the two welded side plates of a fork
connection, or in this case increase the mounting pin clearance.

-jsw

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 5:14:47 PM UTC-4, Christopher Tidy wrote:
A few tips from a fellow backhoe enthusiast here. Just what I can think of spontaneously:

- Try to design your backhoe to have smooth curves without sharp corners. Taper any reinforcement plates to make a diamond shape and use a tail-out on your welds. This helps to reduce stress concentrations and fatigue cracking, which is a big problem on backhoes.

That is one of the things I do not like about the plans I have. Some places look like they would be big stress concentrators.

- You will not regret having power slew, even on a really small machine.

I am convinced. If you have a hydraulic pump, tank ,and filter, might as well have power everything.

Get a two-lever valve block if you can (these are available second hand.)

Not sure I understand what you are saying. There are four hydraulic cylinders so one needs four valves. Are you saying use two two lever valve blocks instead of a 4 valve block?

I was thinking about a 3 valve block for the three cylinders used in digging and a 1 valve block for the boom swivel. So the one valve block could be mounted so it is actuated left and right rather than forward and aft. Even better might be a swivel valve that is operated by one's feet. Have not got my head around how to do that.

Dan


Chris

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:14:10 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:53:17 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:30:59 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:02:50 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:32:36 -0400, wrote:


Likewize. I think all CKs had the shuttle shift.

I think I remember reading in the manual that some didn't. And the
trans on mine indicates a reverse position that doesn't seem to exist.
I presume that's there for models without the shuttle. Anyway, I can
tell you it's a pain to replace that shuttle gear assembly. Not
terribly difficult, just a pain. Sure is nice to have it back working
though. How bad are your brakes? Mine look good inside, but are barely
adequate to keep the machine from rolling backwards on a 10% grade. I
keep the bucket flipped and low in case of emergency.

The brakes are great. No problem locking up the wheels.

Are they bands on drums, with a cam assist to a flat plate?

How can the
shuttle shift work without a torque converter?

Clutch.

When my CK gets low on
transmission fluid it takes forever for it to warm up enough to move.
I need to fill it way above the full mark on the dipstick for it to
move as soon as I start it. I think it may have the wrong dipstick.
Also weird is that the engine NEVER gets low on oil. And it's not gas
leaking past the rings keeping the oil level up.

No trans fluid. Just gear oil in the torque tube and trans.

It must be a leak
between the engine and the transmission unit that is filling the
engine very slowly with transmission fluid.

Bummer.

I have been having trouble
getting the carb adjustment right. Found out why. There is about 1/16"
play in the throttle shaft where it goes through the back side of the
carb. This winter the carb is coming off so I can rebuild it.
Eric

Yeah, I crudely bushed mine and added some o rings to take up space.
Runs decent but not perfect, hard to know if it was ever much better.
Hand throttle was terrible until I fixed a seized cross shaft linkage
for the foot throttle. Took a whole afternoon including some lathe
work, but was worth it to have a foot throttle.

Have you seen this?
http://www.earthmoversmagazine.co.uk...3-1024x680.jpg
Mine is not quite so shiny. Hoe is different on mine, lift
cylinder is buried in the boom.

Oops, just realized I've been talking 530 and you guys 580. That
explains why you have brakes, and I have brake simulators.
Do you step on the clutch to use shuttle shift? Mine is just a lever
on the steering column. My brakes are the shoe/disc combination.
Where the shoe stops one disc from rotating which causes the balls to
climb the ramp which presses on the disc. I guess it's a good way to
amplify foot pressure in a purely mechanical way. But they are prone
to locking up.
Eric
Particularly when they are adjusted a bit loose, oe half worn out.

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 5:14:47 PM UTC-4, Christopher Tidy wrote:
A few tips from a fellow backhoe enthusiast here. Just what I can think of spontaneously:

- Try to design your backhoe to have smooth curves without sharp corners. Taper any reinforcement plates to make a diamond shape and use a tail-out on your welds. This helps to reduce stress concentrations and fatigue cracking, which is a big problem on backhoes.

That is one of the things I do not like about the plans I have. Some places look like they would be big stress concentrators.

- You will not regret having power slew, even on a really small machine.

I am convinced. If you have a hydraulic pump, tank ,and filter, might as well have power everything.

Get a two-lever valve block if you can (these are available second hand.)

Not sure I understand what you are saying. There are four hydraulic cylinders so one needs four valves. Are you saying use two two lever valve blocks instead of a 4 valve block?

I was thinking about a 3 valve block for the three cylinders used in digging and a 1 valve block for the boom swivel. So the one valve block could be mounted so it is actuated left and right rather than forward and aft. Even better might be a swivel valve that is operated by one's feet. Have not got my head around how to do that.

Dan


Chris Just put a lever and belcrank setup on your pedals, with the spool centered with the pedals squared. Can be crosswize or fore and aft mounted

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 11:09:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make a mini backhoe.. I may never make one, but I am proceeding on the grounds that I will.

Before starting in on how I should just buy a real backhoe, let me say I do not need a real backhoe. I can really get by with just using a shovel. But a mini backhoe that would be say 3 times as fast as just using a shovel appeals to me.

I have thought about building a tiny mini backhoe, but the cost would be nearly the same as a some what bigger machine. The hydraulic cylinders and hydraulic valves are the major expense and they would not be significantly less for a tiny backhoe.

I purchased the plan that are on Ebay for $13.99 and are not real happy with them. Most of the drawings are three dimensional showing all the hidden lines. And most dimensions are in the text. And the pages all have the same title block. But I did not pay a lot so can not expect a lot.

I am hoping to collect most of the material ( not including hydraulics ) from the local scrap yard. I am intending to put the engine, hydraulic pump, filter and tank as a unit with quick disconnects. So I can remove that part and connect it to a log splitter or what ever. And hope to find a boat trailer at the scrap yard to supply the wheels. I have already bought some 3/16 rectangular 4 by 3 inch tubing for the booms and chassis. All in pieces only 4 feet long, but I have a welder. I also have some cut offs of 1 inch rod and some 1" bronze bushings.

So what I would like is comments. Especially from anyone that has built a mini backhoe. Good sources for hydraulic cylinders and valves would be nice. The Surplus Center is already bookmarked. Things to avoid would be nice.

Oh yes, I am thinking about using my feet to swivel the boom instead of of using a hydraulic cylinder. It seems like that might be okay to do. Maybe have a plan on how to add power to swivel the boom if using my feet is too much work. Or maybe figure out a way to use car clutch and brake parts to swivel the boom. I am sure there will be comments on that idea.

Dan

There are ones that places such as harbor freight sells, called a Towable backhoe. It has a small engine powering the hydraulic system. These cost around 2k or so and work great. If your handy, you could probably build a small one. Google them and see the design, it might be exactly what you need.

~

wrote in message
...
...
I was thinking about a 3 valve block for the three cylinders used in
digging and a 1 valve block for the boom swivel. So the one valve
block could be mounted so it is actuated left and right rather than
forward and aft. Even better might be a swivel valve that is
operated by one's feet. Have not got my head around how to do that.

Dan
=============================

You might consider if you would ever want a manual or hydraulic thumb,
perhaps to lift stumps or boulders out of the hole. Rocks can be
difficult to grip with chains.
http://www.acs-coupler.com/excavator...-thumb-patriot

-jsw

Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017 02:25:49 UTC+2 schrieb :
That is one of the things I do not like about the plans I have. Some places
look like they would be big stress concentrators.

You're welcome to post your sketches here. I'll take a look (send me an e-mail if I don't) and others can give their opinions too. You won't get a detailed analysis, but we can likely help you to avoid the worst stress concentrations.

Get a two-lever valve block if you can (these are available second hand.)

Not sure I understand what you are saying. There are four hydraulic cylinders so one needs four valves. Are you saying use two two lever valve blocks instead of a 4 valve block?

No, I mean you could get one of these (valve block on the right):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138493...posted-public/

The two big levers operate four spool valves (the small levers in the centre are to raise and lower the stabiliser legs). You can see the tops of the valve spools in the pictures.

That's my own pile of backhoe spares and the block is going onto my machine soon (to replace a leaky block), so it's not for sale, but they are often available from places which stock used backhoe parts. Two levers are a lot more comfortable to use than four levers.

The idea of the bell crank and foot pedals definitely sounds possible. One backhoe manufacturer used to have some arrangement like that, but it wasn't a manufacturer I'm familiar with. Might have been Case.

One last thing: if you're going to use the machine a lot, think about pivot wear. Use large bearing surfaces, lock the pin so that wear only occurs at one interface, and maybe consider replaceable bushes.

Nice project. Enjoy it!

Chris

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:12:35 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:45:14 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:31:55 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

Sounds like mine is the same arrangement.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...E-SYSTEM-0WCr/
It's not a shoe though, but a band around a drum. I cleaned
everything, lightly greased the balls, and adjusted. It works Ok on
the level, but is really crap when I'm pointed up a steep hill and
stopped trying to shift gears. I figured it surely must have worked
better when new, but a friend who knows these tractors from the old
days told me the brakes were never any good. Based on your experience
though, I'll give everything a more critical look next time it's
apart.

Ed, if you're reading this, please give your opinion on the
arrangement. The plate 35 presses against the inside of the housing.
It seems to me that the cam/ball/disc thing can only be effective IF
the band is effective, which makes it a dubious idea. Ever known
anything else that uses such a system?

Wphew, you're really asking the wrong guy. It looks to me like the
balls ride on ramps, and the drum would have to be clutched to a stop
(by the band), or nearly so, for the balls to ride up the ramps and
put pressure on the discs, right?

Exactly. I suppose it's supposed to multiply the effect of the band.
Except that the band is wimpy, and unless it's gripping sufficiently,
there isn't much pressure on the balls and the plate.

It looks like the balls are part of
a freewheeling clutch.

It's a very primitive manual brake system. One housing outboard on
each side of the transmission. Here are some pics

guts http://www.hagantractorparts.com/CaseBrakeAssembly.jpg

In this one, you can see the left brake housing just ahead of the rear
axle housing. The disc pushes against the outboard face of the
housing.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/f...mg_1620_rs-jpg

Here's one that's a little more true to life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ractor0002.jpg
Brake housing is just below the guy's hand. Comes off easily, bands
stay with the housing. Then the drum with the disc and balls slides
off the output shaft. Points given for being easy to work on but it's
quite a bit of iron considering the anemic performance.

It's strange, for a brake. There must have been some considerations
that aren't obvious, in order to engineer something like that.

After all, leading-shoe drum brakes will give you all the mechanical
"amplification" you want.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 08:00:23 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:12:35 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:45:14 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:31:55 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

Sounds like mine is the same arrangement.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...E-SYSTEM-0WCr/
It's not a shoe though, but a band around a drum. I cleaned
everything, lightly greased the balls, and adjusted. It works Ok on
the level, but is really crap when I'm pointed up a steep hill and
stopped trying to shift gears. I figured it surely must have worked
better when new, but a friend who knows these tractors from the old
days told me the brakes were never any good. Based on your experience
though, I'll give everything a more critical look next time it's
apart.

Ed, if you're reading this, please give your opinion on the
arrangement. The plate 35 presses against the inside of the housing.
It seems to me that the cam/ball/disc thing can only be effective IF
the band is effective, which makes it a dubious idea. Ever known
anything else that uses such a system?

Wphew, you're really asking the wrong guy. It looks to me like the
balls ride on ramps, and the drum would have to be clutched to a stop
(by the band), or nearly so, for the balls to ride up the ramps and
put pressure on the discs, right?

Exactly. I suppose it's supposed to multiply the effect of the band.
Except that the band is wimpy, and unless it's gripping sufficiently,
there isn't much pressure on the balls and the plate.

It looks like the balls are part of
a freewheeling clutch.

It's a very primitive manual brake system. One housing outboard on
each side of the transmission. Here are some pics

guts http://www.hagantractorparts.com/CaseBrakeAssembly.jpg

In this one, you can see the left brake housing just ahead of the rear
axle housing. The disc pushes against the outboard face of the
housing.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/f...mg_1620_rs-jpg

Here's one that's a little more true to life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ractor0002.jpg
Brake housing is just below the guy's hand. Comes off easily, bands
stay with the housing. Then the drum with the disc and balls slides
off the output shaft. Points given for being easy to work on but it's
quite a bit of iron considering the anemic performance.

It's strange, for a brake. There must have been some considerations
that aren't obvious, in order to engineer something like that.

After all, leading-shoe drum brakes will give you all the mechanical
"amplification" you want.

Appears to be a holdover from earlier farm tractor models.
The bare tractor is only about 3200 lbs. With a loader and hoe it's
nearly triple that. Did some searching yesterday and found several
comments about the inadequacies of these brakes, and one mention of
improving them by using oversize balls. Perhaps with disc friction
material wear, the balls must move so far on the ramps that the drum
rotates too much before the disc makes contact. I'll check it out next
time the brake housings are off. Maybe the drum assembly can be
shimmed a bit outboard.

I can see the attraction of using the vehicle's momentum to provide
leverage, which works well on electric trailer brakes for example. But
if the compound balls/ramp/disc thing was a good idea it should have
been more popular.

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 07:08:30 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 08:00:23 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:12:35 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:45:14 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:31:55 -0700, Cemetery Polka wrote:

Sounds like mine is the same arrangement.
https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/m...E-SYSTEM-0WCr/
It's not a shoe though, but a band around a drum. I cleaned
everything, lightly greased the balls, and adjusted. It works Ok on
the level, but is really crap when I'm pointed up a steep hill and
stopped trying to shift gears. I figured it surely must have worked
better when new, but a friend who knows these tractors from the old
days told me the brakes were never any good. Based on your experience
though, I'll give everything a more critical look next time it's
apart.

Ed, if you're reading this, please give your opinion on the
arrangement. The plate 35 presses against the inside of the housing.
It seems to me that the cam/ball/disc thing can only be effective IF
the band is effective, which makes it a dubious idea. Ever known
anything else that uses such a system?

Wphew, you're really asking the wrong guy. It looks to me like the
balls ride on ramps, and the drum would have to be clutched to a stop
(by the band), or nearly so, for the balls to ride up the ramps and
put pressure on the discs, right?

Exactly. I suppose it's supposed to multiply the effect of the band.
Except that the band is wimpy, and unless it's gripping sufficiently,
there isn't much pressure on the balls and the plate.

It looks like the balls are part of
a freewheeling clutch.

It's a very primitive manual brake system. One housing outboard on
each side of the transmission. Here are some pics

guts http://www.hagantractorparts.com/CaseBrakeAssembly.jpg

In this one, you can see the left brake housing just ahead of the rear
axle housing. The disc pushes against the outboard face of the
housing.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/f...mg_1620_rs-jpg

Here's one that's a little more true to life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ractor0002.jpg
Brake housing is just below the guy's hand. Comes off easily, bands
stay with the housing. Then the drum with the disc and balls slides
off the output shaft. Points given for being easy to work on but it's
quite a bit of iron considering the anemic performance.

It's strange, for a brake. There must have been some considerations
that aren't obvious, in order to engineer something like that.

After all, leading-shoe drum brakes will give you all the mechanical
"amplification" you want.

Appears to be a holdover from earlier farm tractor models.
The bare tractor is only about 3200 lbs. With a loader and hoe it's
nearly triple that. Did some searching yesterday and found several
comments about the inadequacies of these brakes, and one mention of
improving them by using oversize balls. Perhaps with disc friction
material wear, the balls must move so far on the ramps that the drum
rotates too much before the disc makes contact. I'll check it out next
time the brake housings are off. Maybe the drum assembly can be
shimmed a bit outboard.

I can see the attraction of using the vehicle's momentum to provide
leverage, which works well on electric trailer brakes for example. But
if the compound balls/ramp/disc thing was a good idea it should have
been more popular.

My first thought was that it's very compact, which may have been the
main idea. My second thought was that it's something from an era when
we expected to make adjustments and replacements to mechanical parts
for all kinds of things -- including cars.

Still, I'd like to know what the engineers were thinking. Overrunning
clutches in most applications are either on or off, like a Bendix
drive; the balls are either fully released, or locked on. There
doubtless are exceptions, but, as I said, the mechanism is known to
give trouble when parts wear.

At least you can see what's going on. A digital version would be a
real headache. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 5:14:47 PM UTC-4, Christopher Tidy wrote:
A few tips from a fellow backhoe enthusiast here. Just what I can think of spontaneously:

- Try to design your backhoe to have smooth curves without sharp corners. Taper any reinforcement plates to make a diamond shape and use a tail-out on your welds. This helps to reduce stress concentrations and fatigue cracking, which is a big problem on backhoes.

That is one of the things I do not like about the plans I have. Some places look like they would be big stress concentrators.

- You will not regret having power slew, even on a really small machine.

I am convinced. If you have a hydraulic pump, tank ,and filter, might as well have power everything.

Get a two-lever valve block if you can (these are available second hand.)

Not sure I understand what you are saying. There are four hydraulic cylinders so one needs four valves. Are you saying use two two lever valve blocks instead of a 4 valve block?

I was thinking about a 3 valve block for the three cylinders used in digging and a 1 valve block for the boom swivel. So the one valve block could be mounted so it is actuated left and right rather than forward and aft. Even better might be a swivel valve that is operated by one's feet. Have not got my head around how to do that.

Dan


Chris
Greetings Dan,
My Case has what are called "Case Style" conrols. There are also
"John Deere Style" controls. I have never used the Deere style
controls but more than one person I have spoken to about backhoes has
derided the Case style control. In fact, I was told that Case backhoes
could be ordered new from the factory with Deere style controls.
My case uses three levers and two foot pedals to control the how.
As well as two levers for the outriggers. I think the Deere controls
don't use the foot pedals. The foot pedals control the swing, the
levers the the digging motions.
I would advise against the foot pedal controls. This is because on
my machine it is easy to step on the foot pedal when getting in and
out of the seat. And this makes the boom swing fast. Which is
dangerous.
You should really take a close look at a backhoe control lever
setup on a machine. Maybe your local heavy equipment rental place has
one. Maybe talk to an operator or two.
I rented a small excavator several years ago that used a joystick
control. Much better. It took me almost no time to learn using the
joystick. My Case controls were much harder to learn. They take more
finesse. When you are digging the bottom of a ditch and it needs to be
level the dipper has to be drawn backwards while at the same time it
must be raised. It took me many hours to learn to do that operation
even half way good.
Finally, think about adding a thumb. My hoe doesn't have one but I
got a cylinder recently to add one. I know, mission creep and all
that.
Cheers,
Eric

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

...When you are digging the bottom of a ditch and it needs to be
level the dipper has to be drawn backwards while at the same time it
must be raised. It took me many hours to learn to do that operation
even half way good. ...
Eric

I practice that whenever someone lets me try their machine, most
recently a Kubota. Is there a control layout that makes it easier?

-jsw

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 09:52:03 -0700, wrote:


My Case has what are called "Case Style" conrols. There are also
"John Deere Style" controls. I have never used the Deere style
controls but more than one person I have spoken to about backhoes has
derided the Case style control. In fact, I was told that Case backhoes
could be ordered new from the factory with Deere style controls.
My case uses three levers and two foot pedals to control the how.
As well as two levers for the outriggers. I think the Deere controls
don't use the foot pedals.

On the one I used for about 150 hours a while back, all hand controls.
Dipper control moves left and right for bucket tip. Boom control moves
left and right for swing. That's if I remember right, because after a
while it just becomes muscle memory. I'd used Case controls before and
now after. No problem with either, although I'm occasionally still
trying to move the Case levers sideways. Some will find either
more instinctive than the other.

The foot pedals control the swing, the
levers the the digging motions.
I would advise against the foot pedal controls. This is because on
my machine it is easy to step on the foot pedal when getting in and
out of the seat. And this makes the boom swing fast. Which is
dangerous.

I find that the least dangerous thing on the 530. No handholds, no
ROPS, vestigial fenders. Definitely made for an era when men were men,
and sleepy heads lost limbs.

The Deere hoe I used was on a dozer. If you wanted to get out to be
near the hoe, it was a long way around through the door. Much shorter
to climb around the hoe controls, but one needs to take care to not
snag a pant leg. Same with my skidsteer. No safeties at all. If you
climb out with the bucket up you damned sure better not step on the
lift pedal on your way out. They've engineered most of these risks out
of modern machines. One friend's skidsteer has so many safeties it can
be a pain sometimes. Another's needs its seat safety adjusted. He's
heavier and has no issues. But when I'm in it and a bump lifts a bit
of my weight off the seat, the brakes slam on. The halt bounces me
back off the seat and then there's rounds two three and four before
things settle down. Upside is that I can't remember the last time I
felt the need to go on a carnival ride.

Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017 19:15:12 UTC+2 schrieb Jim Wilkins:

I practice that whenever someone lets me try their machine, most
recently a Kubota. Is there a control layout that makes it easier?

What layout does the Kubota use? I find the JCB cross-pattern levers pretty comfortable for this, but I'm not sure if they're better than other layouts.

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017 19:15:12 UTC+2 schrieb Jim Wilkins:

I practice that whenever someone lets me try their machine, most
recently a Kubota. Is there a control layout that makes it easier?

What layout does the Kubota use? I find the JCB cross-pattern levers
pretty comfortable for this, but I'm not sure if they're better than
other layouts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excavator_controls

Am Donnerstag, 19. Oktober 2017 12:49:30 UTC+2 schrieb Jim Wilkins:

What layout does the Kubota use? I find the JCB cross-pattern levers
pretty comfortable for this, but I'm not sure if they're better than
other layouts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excavator_controls

Yes, the older JCB pattern is different. Lever motions at 45 degrees (into the corners).

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 14:38:03 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:

I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make
a mini backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding
on the grounds that I will.
snip

If you haven't already, download the manual from HF for their little
backhoe:

https://manuals.harborfreight.com/ma...2999/62365.pdf

It has an hydraulic schematic, parts blowout... may help you sort stuff
out some in your head

You can find several different types of plans on Ebay for ten bucks a
pop, too. Cutlists, patterns, assembly tips, etc. Pretty cool. I've
wanted one of those for decades, too, but I've seldom had a use for
one. Instead, I pulled a couple dozen shrubs/trees out using my
cherry picker (engine hoist). The key: soak the ground 36 hours
before digging, dig straight down a foot away from the shrub or small
tree (larger roots can be hacked off with a 12" wood blade on a
sawzall), chain the trunk or trunk bunch, then lift straight up with
the hoist in 2T mode. Up they come in under half an hour apiece.

But I still want a backhoe, anti-tank missiles, artillery, space ship,
and mass quantities of high explosives. After all, I'm a red-blooded
American boy who knows how to blow off a finger or two. (right, Pete?)
(No, no known uses for any of it/no plotting. I'd settle for a gW
vaporizing laser or disruptor for my yard to keep the riff raff, dogs,
and zombies out.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 06:49:29 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017 19:15:12 UTC+2 schrieb Jim Wilkins:

I practice that whenever someone lets me try their machine, most
recently a Kubota. Is there a control layout that makes it easier?

What layout does the Kubota use? I find the JCB cross-pattern levers
pretty comfortable for this, but I'm not sure if they're better than
other layouts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excavator_controls


IIRC Kubota uses Deere pattern (some were actually convertible "dual
pattern" if memory searves correctly

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 11:14:21 AM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 14:38:03 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:

I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make
a mini backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding
on the grounds that I will.
snip

If you haven't already, download the manual from HF for their little
backhoe:

https://manuals.harborfreight.com/ma...2999/62365.pdf

It has an hydraulic schematic, parts blowout... may help you sort stuff
out some in your head

You can find several different types of plans on Ebay for ten bucks a
pop, too. Cutlists, patterns, assembly tips, etc. Pretty cool. I've
wanted one of those for decades, too, but I've seldom had a use for
one. Instead, I pulled a couple dozen shrubs/trees out using my
cherry picker (engine hoist). The key: soak the ground 36 hours
before digging, dig straight down a foot away from the shrub or small
tree (larger roots can be hacked off with a 12" wood blade on a
sawzall), chain the trunk or trunk bunch, then lift straight up with
the hoist in 2T mode. Up they come in under half an hour apiece.

But I still want a backhoe, anti-tank missiles, artillery, space ship,
and mass quantities of high explosives. After all, I'm a red-blooded
American boy who knows how to blow off a finger or two. (right, Pete?)
(No, no known uses for any of it/no plotting. I'd settle for a gW
vaporizing laser or disruptor for my yard to keep the riff raff, dogs,
and zombies out.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

All I want are the personal helicopter and jet pack promised to me by Popular Science magazine in the early 60s.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make a mini backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding on the grounds that I will.

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe? Either HF or Northern sells a
very nice one. A friend has one. I've borrowed it several times.
Nice. It has a trailer hitch so you just tow it to the job.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On Friday, October 20, 2017 at 11:03:11 AM UTC-4, Neon John wrote:

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe? Either HF or Northern sells a
very nice one. A friend has one. I've borrowed it several times.
Nice. It has a trailer hitch so you just tow it to the job.

John
John DeArmond


That would be the sensible thing to do. But I have a lathe, Drill Mill, a bunch of welders and a bunch of misc. tools. Have been retired almost 20 years and do not play golf. So I need something to do.

Dan

Am Freitag, 20. Oktober 2017 17:03:11 UTC+2 schrieb Neon John:

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe?

Because it isn't as much fun? :-)

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:54:31 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Am Freitag, 20. Oktober 2017 17:03:11 UTC+2 schrieb Neon John:

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe?

Because it isn't as much fun? :-)
Generally when you buy one (chinese) from HF you get to "build" it
anyway. It's just a semi-finished kit shipped semi-assembled. You take
it apart and use your lathe, mill, and welders to make it what it
should have been - a fully functional machine - - -

On 10/20/2017 8:03 AM, Neon John wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make a mini backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding on the grounds that I will.

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe?

I am certain the majority of people who follow this group make the wrong
decision on make-or-buy.

Am Samstag, 21. Oktober 2017 06:32:59 UTC+2 schrieb Rudy Canoza:

I am certain the majority of people who follow this group make the wrong
decision on make-or-buy.

There aren't universal right and wrong decisions here. It depends on the person, tools available, interest and time. Lately I built two workbenches and a vice (vise, if you're American) myself. This was better for me, because the end products were exactly what I needed and it was fun. But someone else might have preferred to buy them.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:32:55 -0700, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

On 10/20/2017 8:03 AM, Neon John wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make a mini backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding on the grounds that I will.

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe?

I am certain the majority of people who follow this group make the wrong
decision on make-or-buy.

If this was a home economics NG, you would be right. But this is
nominally a recreational metalworking NG, and making wrong economic
decisions is our raison d'être. d8-)

Making things when it makes no economic sense to do so, and keeping
ridiculous old junk alive by fixing and making spare parts for it, is
our equivalent of camping in a tent when you have a perfectly good
house to sleep in.

--
Ed Huntress

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Am Samstag, 21. Oktober 2017 06:32:59 UTC+2 schrieb Rudy Canoza:

I am certain the majority of people who follow this group make the
wrong
decision on make-or-buy.

There aren't universal right and wrong decisions here. It depends on
the person, tools available, interest and time. Lately I built two
workbenches and a vice (vise, if you're American) myself. This was
better for me, because the end products were exactly what I needed and
it was fun. But someone else might have preferred to buy them.

=============

I faced the build-or-buy decision continually as a builder and
sometimes designer of industrial test equipment for new products.
Sometims the best choice was a split, such as contracting for the
refrigeration but building the heaters and controls for temperature
cycling chambers.

If the schedule permitted I'd attempt some new task like brazing
copper tubing at least once to better understand its potentials and
limitations. That's how I got into machining and welding and sheet
metal fab; I never intended to do them for a living, only better
understand how to employ them efficiently. The time was an educational
expense, just like the chemistry lab work we practiced but would
likely have an assistant for later.

I found that I really enjoyed imagining some new mechanism and then
creating it, sometimes more than using it. After the one flight lesson
I took the instructor, an aerospace engineer, told me that students
divide into those who enjoy building planes and those who only want to
fly them. I'm definitely on the builder side.

-jsw

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:32:55 -0700, Rudy Canoza

wrote:

On 10/20/2017 8:03 AM, Neon John wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make a mini
backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding on the
grounds that I will.

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe?

I am certain the majority of people who follow this group make the
wrong
decision on make-or-buy.

If this was a home economics NG, you would be right. But this is
nominally a recreational metalworking NG, and making wrong economic
decisions is our raison d'être. d8-)

Making things when it makes no economic sense to do so, and keeping
ridiculous old junk alive by fixing and making spare parts for it,
is
our equivalent of camping in a tent when you have a perfectly good
house to sleep in.

--
Ed Huntress

Or spending a great deal of money to catch a few fish.

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 07:21:19 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:32:55 -0700, Rudy Canoza

wrote:

On 10/20/2017 8:03 AM, Neon John wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


I am trying to collect material and ideas in order to make a mini
backhoe. I may never make one, but I am proceeding on the
grounds that I will.

Why don't you just buy a mini-backhoe?

I am certain the majority of people who follow this group make the
wrong
decision on make-or-buy.

If this was a home economics NG, you would be right. But this is
nominally a recreational metalworking NG, and making wrong economic
decisions is our raison d'être. d8-)

Making things when it makes no economic sense to do so, and keeping
ridiculous old junk alive by fixing and making spare parts for it,
is
our equivalent of camping in a tent when you have a perfectly good
house to sleep in.

--
Ed Huntress

Or spending a great deal of money to catch a few fish.

That's why I use my SB lathe to build my own fishing rods.

A $1,000 investment and ten or twenty hours of work will save you
$200. Such a deal!

--
Ed Huntress

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Am Samstag, 21. Oktober 2017 06:32:59 UTC+2 schrieb Rudy Canoza:

I am certain the majority of people who follow this group make the
wrong
decision on make-or-buy.

There aren't universal right and wrong decisions here. It depends on
the person, tools available, interest and time. Lately I built two
workbenches and a vice (vise, if you're American) myself. This was
better for me, because the end products were exactly what I needed and
it was fun. But someone else might have preferred to buy them.
====================

I can build things that aren't commercially available, like the variac
battery charging power supplies that are economically practical only
with cheap flea market parts, or the hydraulic front-end loader for my
Sears garden tractor. It fit my need to clear snow to the upwind side
of my yard although the tractor is too small and light to excavate
soil.

The sawmill was harder to justify versus buying one. I was looking at
Wood-Mizer and its competition until a neighbor parted out a crashed
motorcycle whose wheels were nearly perfect for a homebrew bandsaw
mill and I found a cheap heap of surplus pallet rack channel iron to
use for the tracks and frame.

-jsw

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 07:21:19 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...
Or spending a great deal of money to catch a few fish.

That's why I use my SB lathe to build my own fishing rods.

A $1,000 investment and ten or twenty hours of work will save you
$200. Such a deal!

--
Ed Huntress

After using small home made tools to solve the immediate problem I
cleaned them up to look nice and took them to job interviews. I think
they got me into Segway.

-jsw