I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-...screw-machines

They and their parts are all scrap material despite being in good
condition.

I know that they are impossible to sell. What I do not understand is
why?

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?

On 01/10/17 19:31, Ignoramus13481 wrote:
I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-...screw-machines

They and their parts are all scrap material despite being in good
condition.

I know that they are impossible to sell. What I do not understand is
why?

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?

I bought a few bits a couple of years ago from a guy that ran a
succesful screw machine company in the UK but he hadÂ* sold the machines
to another company and retired. He said they contacted him shortly after
to come and help them set up the machines for a job which he did but
ultimately they were on their own after that. It seems he had worked
with them most of his life and knew them well but fewer and fewer people
are about who know how to use them so they had become largely useless
and went for scrap.

Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

Jon

On 01-Oct-17 1:46 PM, David Billington wrote:
....

... but fewer and fewer people
are about who know how to use them so they had become largely useless
and went for scrap.

But that wouldn't be so unless they weren't being used prior to losing
the knowledge base--there'd still be plenty of people who did know them
if they hadn't been unused for quite some time already.

I "know nuthink!" per Schultzie's line about commercial screw production
but one presumes more highly automated machines did replace them and
probably including at least some robotics but what, specifically?

Or, is it simply that there's no US production left; it's all in China
and the like...

--

In article ,
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-...8-multiple-spi
ndle-automatic-screw-machines

Well, it weighs more than 16 tons, which makes it a bit difficult for a
small shop to justify, and presumably makes the scrap value high enough
to make it expensive (counting scrap value and rigging, much less what
it wants for power, or a non-scrap price.)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 13:31:05 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-...screw-machines

They and their parts are all scrap material despite being in good
condition.

I know that they are impossible to sell. What I do not understand is
why?

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?


They are still very much in use across the US. However..that being
said..so much "mass production" has gone to other countries that much
of the use that Acmes and Davenports and Coromants etc etc are pretty
much locked into companies that cant change to the expensive CNCs
stuff like Star etc etc and have products that cant be done overseas.

Id be very interested in buying some coolant pumps if you are parting
out the machines. I take care of a double handful of Acmes and Im
running low on coolant pumps.. the gears tend to take a beating if
you have ignorant small villagers from South America running them..

As you may be aware...most Acmes etc etc are now used as "roughing" or
"first op" machines as they are wearing out and finding someone to
rebuild one is both impossible and expensive as ****.

So they are set up to do the primary machining from bar stock, then
the roughed parts go to CNC lathes for machining to specs

They very much are still used to machine things that dont need tenths
tolerances. A perfect example would be..lug nuts. Washers, fittings
and so forth. Acmes can be found that will do up to 12" diameter
parts..though they have become rather rare as has the work for them.

One of my clients
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PdgsBZPt8m3tfmdH2

These are just a few of the 12 they run. The above three run 1/2 a
shift a day..and their output is completed (finished to tolerance) on
these, over the next 2 shifts.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EkjVFqg5mC2D1su82

Other companies...

http://www.m-reng.com/wp-content/upl...quipment-4.jpg

http://www.m-reng.com/

For those who may never have seen a "screw machine"

" Multi-Spindle Screw Machines
The multi-spindle screw machine is turning machine that allows
multiple tools to cut multiple pieces of material simultaneously. Like
a Gatling gun, the multiple spindles are carried in a precision
machined drum that typically rotates in a horizontal orientation. The
total number of operations needed to complete a part are divided among
the number of spindles, so that a part is completed with one full
rotation of the drum. However, because multiple parts are being
machined simultaneously, a part is completed each time the drum
indexes, making for a very efficient process. Usually configured in 4,
5, 6 or 8 spindle models, each spindle is attacked by a cross-slide
and end-slide tool effectively making each spindle a 2-axis lathe. "

There are about 4 types..but they typically are called either "Swiss
screw machines" or "Multi-spindle" screw machines.

Mechanical Swiss screw machines are typically used for high precision
small parts under 3/4", and include Tornos, Bechler, Star, Brown and
Sharpe etc

They nearly always machine (1) part at a time, with multiple tools in
operation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zymiEXw6jZU

They also come in CNC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU1-G7Eh1fk


Multi spindle machines are rather different.... They perform an
operation on each part as the part is spun around an axis. Hence you
may have 6 parts in the machine..each part is undergoing a single
machining operation, then its spun to the next tool ..then to the
next..and finally popped out of the machine into a collection area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GFYjm5E4cA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOGdQgiBMS8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnCFDkxAVPE

They even come in CNC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2dd_G_vjGE



A rather good recruitment video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Pka6jrwHY&t=9s

This may give you some idea of how they are laid out....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZls0HwsIzI



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On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 13:58:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 01-Oct-17 1:46 PM, David Billington wrote:
...

... but fewer and fewer people
are about who know how to use them so they had become largely useless
and went for scrap.

But that wouldn't be so unless they weren't being used prior to losing
the knowledge base--there'd still be plenty of people who did know them
if they hadn't been unused for quite some time already.

I "know nuthink!" per Schultzie's line about commercial screw production
but one presumes more highly automated machines did replace them and
probably including at least some robotics but what, specifically?

Or, is it simply that there's no US production left; it's all in China
and the like...

CNC screw machines (see the links in my previous post) have done a
fair amount of change over...but..suprisingly little. The machines
posted..many of them depended on a moving "program wheel"..IE a "cam"
to tell each tool what to do.....and each one was "programmed" by a
special milling machine....

This is a rack of cams
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...iphone-334.jpg
https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.co...5b/540x360.jpg
https://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.ne...D_Champion.jpg

This is how they are setup in the machine

http://podmoremfg.com/images/capa_esco_cam.jpg



Some thoughts on the old cam machines...

http://todaysmachiningworld.com/maga...crew-machines/


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On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 13:55:40 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

Jon

Absolutely correct. Setting up a manual screw machine can take a
couple hours to a full shift. And then machine hundreds of thousands
of parts fairly quickly.

CNC takes much less time, but then makes those parts much slower...but
often with higher precision.

The old manual screw machines take up floor space. A lot of it with
their bar feeders which accept 12' bars. I have clients who have
machines dedicated to making a single part for a single customer who
only orders 1 or 2 times a year..but orders many thousands at each
order. So the machines sit for 6 months..then run 3 shifts a day for
a couple weeks, then sit for 6 months... all run by a single operator
who simply checks parts and makes sure the bar feeders are full...

Then they go back to sleep for 6 months....




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On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?


They are still very much in use across the US. However..that being
said..so much "mass production" has gone to other countries that much
of the use that Acmes and Davenports and Coromants etc etc are pretty
much locked into companies that cant change to the expensive CNCs
stuff like Star etc etc and have products that cant be done overseas.

Id be very interested in buying some coolant pumps if you are parting
out the machines. I take care of a double handful of Acmes and Im
running low on coolant pumps.. the gears tend to take a beating if
you have ignorant small villagers from South America running them..

I will see what I can salvage...

As you may be aware...most Acmes etc etc are now used as "roughing" or
"first op" machines as they are wearing out and finding someone to
rebuild one is both impossible and expensive as ****.

So they are set up to do the primary machining from bar stock, then
the roughed parts go to CNC lathes for machining to specs

They very much are still used to machine things that dont need tenths
tolerances. A perfect example would be..lug nuts. Washers, fittings
and so forth. Acmes can be found that will do up to 12" diameter
parts..though they have become rather rare as has the work for them.

OK, good point about wearing out...

One of my clients
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PdgsBZPt8m3tfmdH2

Nice

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

Everyone else has covered this well, but you bring up something here
that's worth adding: Extended high-volume continuous production has
always been a rare exception in manufacturing. Back in the 1960s, and
even in the '50s, there were articles (and, I think books) on the
subject "the myth of mass production." Most production in the US and
elsewhere has been batch production, and the time and cost of
changeover has always been a big factor in production costs. Screw
machines are slow to change over and require some expertise; CNC
lathes are much faster. And they are much, much more versatile.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.


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On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.

Going to Texas is how stuff gets shipped to Mexico, through El Paso
and Laredo.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:40:23 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.

Going to Texas is how stuff gets shipped to Mexico, through El Paso
and Laredo.

See if Mexicans will buy your machines. Ive sold a number of them to
mechadoras down south.


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Ignoramus13481 wrote:



I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be
made.

"Back in the day", when there were carburetors, they had 100 special parts
on each one, needle valves, jets and the screws that held it all together,
that were made by the barrel on screw machines. Lots of other products has
screw machine-produced parts, too. All the threaded plumbing fittings were
made on screw machines. Well, a lot of that production has moved overseas,
some of those products are made differently (think fuel injection) and a lot
of these parts are molded or cast in some manner now. So, there is less
demand for this. Also, there are rotary transfer machines that are used
to make all sorts of reall high production parts. These can even beat a
screw machine for throughput.

For one thing, screw machines were at one time used to make -- SCREWS!
I suspect that it would be VERY rare to make screws that way, now. Mostly,
they'd be coined and have the threads rolled. Nowhere as precise, but
precise enough to hold some gadget together.


Jon

Gunner Asch wrote:



That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.
"Re-shoring" has been going on for about 10 years or so. As the Chinese,
Vietnamese and Indian economies continue to build up, the incredible
difference in labor cost gets smaller. And then, the cost and delay of
shipping and all the communication issues start to become a problem.
I'm pretty sure this trend will continue.

Jon

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 10:33:29 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus13481 wrote:



I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be
made.

I hope you don't mind if I pick some nits. d8-)


"Back in the day", when there were carburetors, they had 100 special parts
on each one, needle valves, jets and the screws that held it all together,
that were made by the barrel on screw machines.

Yeah, mostly little Swiss automatics, though, not the big ones. Lots
of fuel-system parts are still made on those machines (Citizen-Cimcom,
Tsugami, etc.) They're basically the same machines, only now they're
CNC instead of cam-controlled.

Lots of other products has
screw machine-produced parts, too. All the threaded plumbing fittings were
made on screw machines.

Hmm...for the past 60 years or so, actually on dial-index transfer
machines.

Well, a lot of that production has moved overseas,
some of those products are made differently (think fuel injection) and a lot
of these parts are molded or cast in some manner now. So, there is less
demand for this. Also, there are rotary transfer machines that are used
to make all sorts of reall high production parts. These can even beat a
screw machine for throughput.

For one thing, screw machines were at one time used to make -- SCREWS!
I suspect that it would be VERY rare to make screws that way, now. Mostly,
they'd be coined

....sort of. Cold-headed, actually.

and have the threads rolled.

Yes.

Nowhere as precise, but
precise enough to hold some gadget together.


Jon

Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
where they work in their bare feet.

When I was at Wasino, we turned the big-end con-rod bolts for Cosworth
racing engines on our precision CNC lathes, which would turn to +/- 50
microinches. I think they were $24/each, or possibly $24/pair, when we
were done. d8-)

Do you remember Dobbie Dave, who used to hang out here? I wrote an
article about him and his shop about 15 years ago. Most of his income
was (and maybe still is) from production on his four 1947 B&S,
leather-belt-driven screw machines (known commonly as "Brownies.")

He found himself a niche. He was a sole source, making parts for
lie-detector machines, and a couple of other little hinge pins and
such.

--
Ed Hunttress

On 02/10/17 16:37, Jon Elson wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:


That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.
"Re-shoring" has been going on for about 10 years or so. As the Chinese,
Vietnamese and Indian economies continue to build up, the incredible
difference in labor cost gets smaller. And then, the cost and delay of
shipping and all the communication issues start to become a problem.
I'm pretty sure this trend will continue.

Jon

I caught up with an old boss of mine over the weekend and the company he
works for has a manufacturing branch in China which has it's issues but
is generally a benefit to the company. He mentioned that now there are
regular trains, very long ones, that run from China to Europe and they
get things shipped on those as they're far quicker than getting things
shipped by sea from China to Europe, the UK.

I build model engines and repair old things and like to used NOS screws
and nuts. Last year at a local FM i bought a flat [soft drink or beer
case bottom] of small [6 to 2] screws from the late 40;s or 30's
for$10. They are so nice compared to the crap you get nowdays that are
formed , rolled cold headed.
I was lucky. You should see the sharp edges on phillister heads.
CP

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 10:33:29 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus13481 wrote:



I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be
made.

"Back in the day", when there were carburetors, they had 100 special parts
on each one, needle valves, jets and the screws that held it all together,
that were made by the barrel on screw machines. Lots of other products has
screw machine-produced parts, too. All the threaded plumbing fittings were
made on screw machines. Well, a lot of that production has moved overseas,
some of those products are made differently (think fuel injection) and a lot
of these parts are molded or cast in some manner now. So, there is less
demand for this. Also, there are rotary transfer machines that are used
to make all sorts of reall high production parts. These can even beat a
screw machine for throughput.

For one thing, screw machines were at one time used to make -- SCREWS!
I suspect that it would be VERY rare to make screws that way, now. Mostly,
they'd be coined and have the threads rolled. Nowhere as precise, but
precise enough to hold some gadget together.


Jon

Well stated. Bravo!


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Ed Huntress writes:

Everyone else has covered this well, but you bring up something here
that's worth adding: Extended high-volume continuous production has
always been a rare exception in manufacturing. Back in the 1960s, and
even in the '50s, there were articles (and, I think books) on the
subject "the myth of mass production." Most production in the US and
elsewhere has been batch production, and the time and cost of
changeover has always been a big factor in production costs. Screw
machines are slow to change over and require some expertise; CNC
lathes are much faster. And they are much, much more versatile.

My understanding is that the Thor Power Tool decision in 1979 [1]
screwed up (pun intended) the bolt and rivet industry much as it did
the publishing industry.

Company gets an order for, say, 100,000 3/16" x 1-1/8" button-head
soft iron black-finish rivets. So they tool up, make 500,000, deliver
the 100K order and stock the remainder. Same for maybe 2,000
varieties of rivets in dozens of styles, size and materials. After a
few years, they can deliver almost anything from stock. Similar for
bolts.

Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax liability. Then
they go to making just the order and the customer has to pick up the
set-up and material procurement costs rather than having the maker
spread them over several/many years.

Under that rubric, CNC may be a cheaper way to go than screw machines.


[1] http://www.sfwa.org/2005/01/how-thor...ed-publishing/

I vaguely recall that there was an "Acme Bolt & Rivet" case as
well but I can't find a reference.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Jon Elson writes:

For one thing, screw machines were at one time used to make -- SCREWS!
I suspect that it would be VERY rare to make screws that way, now. Mostly,
they'd be coined and have the threads rolled. Nowhere as precise, but
precise enough to hold some gadget together.

I learned to distinguish between rolled and cut wood screws when I was
a kid. It's been decades since I saw a cut wood screw other than old
stock in my own dusty parts bins.

As an aside, 50 years ago I bought some 1/4" x #0 wood screws from a
hardware store going out of business after 3 generations. Just had my
second occasions to use some of them, to screw a carefully fitted
copper patch to my (tobacco) pipe to stop two cracks from joining and
wrecking the pipe. Second time I've done that and the other pipe is
still good after 20 years. But I do wonder just how 1/4" x 0 screws
were made.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On 10/2/2017 11:52 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
[hogwash]

You buy blow-up dolls instead.

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:40:23 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.

Going to Texas is how stuff gets shipped to Mexico, through El Paso
and Laredo.

See if Mexicans will buy your machines. Ive sold a number of them to
mechadoras down south.

I regularly sell to a fellow from Guatemala. I would hate to warehouse
screw machines though.

i

On 2017-10-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
where they work in their bare feet.

I know of two factories near me that employ large amount of cold
headers and thread rollers, making megatons of screws, and humming
along very nicely.

i

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:26:13 -0500, Ignoramus21874
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
where they work in their bare feet.

I know of two factories near me that employ large amount of cold
headers and thread rollers, making megatons of screws, and humming
along very nicely.

i

A you move up the scale in quality, you get into more US-made
fasteners. The bottom-end, high-volume commodity fasteners are almost
all made overseas.

--
Ed Huntress

On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Ed Huntress writes:

Everyone else has covered this well, but you bring up something here
that's worth adding: Extended high-volume continuous production has
always been a rare exception in manufacturing. Back in the 1960s, and
even in the '50s, there were articles (and, I think books) on the
subject "the myth of mass production." Most production in the US and
elsewhere has been batch production, and the time and cost of
changeover has always been a big factor in production costs. Screw
machines are slow to change over and require some expertise; CNC
lathes are much faster. And they are much, much more versatile.

My understanding is that the Thor Power Tool decision in 1979 [1]
screwed up (pun intended) the bolt and rivet industry much as it did
the publishing industry.

Company gets an order for, say, 100,000 3/16" x 1-1/8" button-head
soft iron black-finish rivets. So they tool up, make 500,000, deliver
the 100K order and stock the remainder. Same for maybe 2,000
varieties of rivets in dozens of styles, size and materials. After a
few years, they can deliver almost anything from stock. Similar for
bolts.

Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax liability. Then
they go to making just the order and the customer has to pick up the
set-up and material procurement costs rather than having the maker
spread them over several/many years.

Under that rubric, CNC may be a cheaper way to go than screw machines.


[1] http://www.sfwa.org/2005/01/how-thor...ed-publishing/

I vaguely recall that there was an "Acme Bolt & Rivet" case as
well but I can't find a reference.

Hmm. I never saw that reference to publishing before. It's
interesting.

I don't know how much the tax issue drove the big switch to minimal
inventories. Maybe it was a big issue, but the one that was touted
over and over, as US industry tried out just-in-time (JIT) inventory
control, was the shear interest and rental charges for maintaining
inventories. JIT looked like an answer, and it has been for many
industries.

But my sister-in-law, who was a buyer of castings and forgings for
Caterpillar, said they eventually renamed it "OSWO," for "Oh ****,
we're out."

d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax liability.


And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was very common
for shops to run a ****load of parts..ship what was ordered, then put
the balance in storage until the next order.

This is one of the reasons I have a **** ton of nuts, bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several times..and
yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer


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On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:24:05 -0500, Ignoramus21874
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:40:23 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.

Going to Texas is how stuff gets shipped to Mexico, through El Paso
and Laredo.

See if Mexicans will buy your machines. Ive sold a number of them to
mechadoras down south.

I regularly sell to a fellow from Guatemala. I would hate to warehouse
screw machines though.

i


They do tend to take up space dont they? (Grin)


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On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:26:13 -0500, Ignoramus21874
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
where they work in their bare feet.

I know of two factories near me that employ large amount of cold
headers and thread rollers, making megatons of screws, and humming
along very nicely.

Lots of them in So. Cal. Much fewer than years ago though.

http://www.ftc-usa.com/

http://www.aircraftbolts.com/

Some of these are suppliers..some are manufactures/suppliers like the
two above

http://www.fastenerindustry.com/Alls...California.htm


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On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 20:39:26 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:26:13 -0500, Ignoramus21874
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
where they work in their bare feet.

I know of two factories near me that employ large amount of cold
headers and thread rollers, making megatons of screws, and humming
along very nicely.

Lots of them in So. Cal. Much fewer than years ago though.

http://www.ftc-usa.com/

http://www.aircraftbolts.com/

Some of these are suppliers..some are manufactures/suppliers like the
two above

http://www.fastenerindustry.com/Alls...California.htm



I forgot the aerospace poprivit maker...Cherry

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/


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On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 20:30:39 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:24:05 -0500, Ignoramus21874
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:40:23 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.

Going to Texas is how stuff gets shipped to Mexico, through El Paso
and Laredo.

See if Mexicans will buy your machines. Ive sold a number of them to
mechadoras down south.

I regularly sell to a fellow from Guatemala. I would hate to warehouse
screw machines though.

i


They do tend to take up space dont they? (Grin)

They don't float around at 33k pounds apiece, either.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

"Gunner Asch"
wrote in message
On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax
liability.


And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was
very common
for shops to run a ****load of parts..ship what was
ordered, then put
the balance in storage until the next order.

This is one of the reasons I have a **** ton of nuts,
bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made
of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several
times..and
yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer

That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
that pushed for that?

On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 10:41:46 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch"
wrote in message
On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax
liability.


And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was
very common
for shops to run a ****load of parts..ship what was
ordered, then put
the balance in storage until the next order.

This is one of the reasons I have a **** ton of nuts,
bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made
of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several
times..and
yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer

That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
that pushed for that?

It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of ****.
Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
to a few states:

https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-...ess-inventory/

Gunner's state of California is not among them.

He may be thinking about business ad valorem taxes, which are state or
local property taxes. They are not inventory taxes, and, again, they
are not federal taxes.

Dobe Dave used to bitch here about the business property taxes he paid
on his machine shop, in Texas.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 11:50:55 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 10:41:46 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch"
wrote in message
On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax
liability.


And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was
very common
for shops to run a ****load of parts..ship what was
ordered, then put
the balance in storage until the next order.

This is one of the reasons I have a **** ton of nuts,
bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made
of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several
times..and
yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer

That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
that pushed for that?

It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of ****.
Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
to a few states:

https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-...ess-inventory/

Gunner's state of California is not among them.

LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
inventory that other businesses couldn't afford to pay taxes on. Makes
perfect sense when you consider Wieber's imaginary accountant toiling
to find ways to avoid the imaginary tax.

In more interesting news, on the 26th over at alt.survival, Wieber
said that the Trump economy has enabled him to have "enough money in
my pocket to get Moby Dick (the E350van) smogged and tagged this week"
And he promises to post the registration! So that's coming
aaaaaaaaaany day now. Unless "this week" means never.

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 11:50:55 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:


It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of ****.
Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
to a few states:

https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-...ess-inventory/

Gunner's state of California is not among them.

Hello Mr. Huntress,

We can confirm Mr. Wieber's account to some degree. We had a lot of
junk that was costing us money to dispose of. Mr. Wieber took it off
our hands at no charge. Although we are a little disturbed that he is
sleeping in our parking lot and rummaging though our dumpster looking
for half eaten sandwiches. He will only be allowed to continue so long
as he agrees to begin abiding by the poop and scoop bylaws.

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:51:03 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 10:41:46 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch"
wrote in message
On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax
liability.


And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was
very common
for shops to run a ****load of parts..ship what was
ordered, then put
the balance in storage until the next order.

This is one of the reasons I have a **** ton of nuts,
bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made
of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several
times..and
yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer

That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
that pushed for that?

It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of ****.
Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
to a few states:

https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-...ess-inventory/

Gunner's state of California is not among them.

He may be thinking about business ad valorem taxes, which are state or
local property taxes. They are not inventory taxes, and, again, they
are not federal taxes.

Dobe Dave used to bitch here about the business property taxes he paid
on his machine shop, in Texas.

--
Ed Huntress

Several distinct issues are being conflated here, Ed.
I'm not surprised...

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 06:31:43 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 20:30:39 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:24:05 -0500, Ignoramus21874
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:40:23 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
wrote:

On 2017-10-01, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus13481 wrote:

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.

Going to Texas is how stuff gets shipped to Mexico, through El Paso
and Laredo.

See if Mexicans will buy your machines. Ive sold a number of them to
mechadoras down south.

I regularly sell to a fellow from Guatemala. I would hate to warehouse
screw machines though.

i


They do tend to take up space dont they? (Grin)

They don't float around at 33k pounds apiece, either.

I tend to move them using dollys...TruBlueMachining has a 6000 lb
forklift....wont pick any of them up...


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On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 10:41:46 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch"
wrote in message
On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax
liability.


And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was
very common
for shops to run a ****load of parts..ship what was
ordered, then put
the balance in storage until the next order.

This is one of the reasons I have a **** ton of nuts,
bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made
of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several
times..and
yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer

That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
that pushed for that?

Leftists of course.


---
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On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 9:26:08 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:



ime specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
where they work in their bare feet.



A you move up the scale in quality, you get into more US-made
fasteners. The bottom-end, high-volume commodity fasteners are almost
all made overseas.

--
Ed Huntress

Does anyone know of the requirement to put the bolt makers symbol on the head of the bolt?

Dan