I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes. I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

Synthetic countertop slab?




On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 03:28:25 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes. I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?


Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca

void _-void-_ in the obvious place



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On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM UTC+2, Boris Mohar wrote:
Synthetic countertop slab?

Are you talking about presswood countertop with a plastic laminate surface? I don't think so. For one thing, the screw threads would hold for only one use. For another, the coolant would drip through the holes and seep under the laminate, creating havoc. No, that's not an option. Sorry.

On 28-Aug-17 7:42 PM, robobass wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM UTC+2, Boris Mohar wrote:
Synthetic countertop slab?

Are you talking about presswood countertop with a plastic laminate surface? I don't think so. For one thing, the screw threads would hold for only one use. For another, the coolant would drip through the holes and seep under the laminate, creating havoc. No, that's not an option. Sorry.



My guess is that Boris is referring to synthetic resin based marble
looking stuff used for kitchen counter tops.


I've a small CNC router with a table about 450mm x 450mm.
The table is made from piece of black plastic approximately 25mm thick.

I don't know what sort of plastic it is. It's quite tough, easy to drill
and tap. I don't think it's PVC - it doesn't melt when drilled fast and
it doesn't grab with a sharp drill bit like PVC.

I think the plastic had a former life as a bed of nails test jig for
electronics if that helps you track it down.

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 2:13:35 PM UTC+2, Trumble wrote:
On 28-Aug-17 7:42 PM, robobass wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM UTC+2, Boris Mohar wrote:
Synthetic countertop slab?

Are you talking about presswood countertop with a plastic laminate surface? I don't think so. For one thing, the screw threads would hold for only one use. For another, the coolant would drip through the holes and seep under the laminate, creating havoc. No, that's not an option. Sorry.



My guess is that Boris is referring to synthetic resin based marble
looking stuff used for kitchen counter tops.


I've a small CNC router with a table about 450mm x 450mm.
The table is made from piece of black plastic approximately 25mm thick.

I don't know what sort of plastic it is. It's quite tough, easy to drill
and tap. I don't think it's PVC - it doesn't melt when drilled fast and
it doesn't grab with a sharp drill bit like PVC.

I think the plastic had a former life as a bed of nails test jig for
electronics if that helps you track it down.

Well, that might be something to consider. I don't have major heat issues, but whatever I end up with would have to have a higher melting point that standard acetyl.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 20:13:28 +0800, Trumble
wrote:

On 28-Aug-17 7:42 PM, robobass wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM UTC+2, Boris Mohar wrote:
Synthetic countertop slab?

Are you talking about presswood countertop with a plastic laminate surface? I don't think so. For one thing, the screw threads would hold for only one use. For another, the coolant would drip through the holes and seep under the laminate, creating havoc. No, that's not an option. Sorry.



My guess is that Boris is referring to synthetic resin based marble
looking stuff used for kitchen counter tops.


I've a small CNC router with a table about 450mm x 450mm.
The table is made from piece of black plastic approximately 25mm thick.

I don't know what sort of plastic it is. It's quite tough, easy to drill
and tap. I don't think it's PVC - it doesn't melt when drilled fast and
it doesn't grab with a sharp drill bit like PVC.

I think the plastic had a former life as a bed of nails test jig for
electronics if that helps you track it down.


"Corian" is the name to search for


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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 2:13:35 PM UTC+2, Trumble wrote:
On 28-Aug-17 7:42 PM, robobass wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM UTC+2, Boris Mohar wrote:
Synthetic countertop slab?

Are you talking about presswood countertop with a plastic laminate surface? I don't think so. For one thing, the screw threads would hold for only one use. For another, the coolant would drip through the holes and seep under the laminate, creating havoc. No, that's not an option. Sorry.



My guess is that Boris is referring to synthetic resin based marble
looking stuff used for kitchen counter tops.


I've a small CNC router with a table about 450mm x 450mm.
The table is made from piece of black plastic approximately 25mm thick.

I don't know what sort of plastic it is. It's quite tough, easy to drill
and tap. I don't think it's PVC - it doesn't melt when drilled fast and
it doesn't grab with a sharp drill bit like PVC.

I think the plastic had a former life as a bed of nails test jig for
electronics if that helps you track it down.

Well, that might be something to consider. I don't have major heat issues, but whatever I end up with would have to have a higher melting point that standard acetyl.

I don't think Corian or Staron would work. They're plastic (acrylic
or polyester) with solids embedded.

-
I am a Transfinancial--A rich person born in a poor person's body.
Please stop the hate by sending me money to resolve my money
identity disorder. --anon

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 03:28:25 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes.

You don't need coolant to drill aluminum. Commercially, most cutting
of aluminum today is done dry. "Coolant," when it's used, is there
mostly for its lubricating properties, to improve finish, not to cool.
In drilling, its main function is to help clear chips. That shouldn't
be a problem when you're just drilling a few mounting holes.

I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

You'll need drainage if you're going to cut wet. Most plastics aren't
going to produce very strong threads. Drilling most composites wears
tools out a lot faster than aluminum does.

If you can afford the aluminum, that's probably your best bet.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 04:42:28 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM UTC+2, Boris Mohar wrote:
Synthetic countertop slab?

Are you talking about presswood countertop with a plastic laminate surface? I don't think so. For one thing, the screw threads would hold for only one use. For another, the coolant would drip through the holes and seep under the laminate, creating havoc. No, that's not an option. Sorry.
I thinks Boris was talking about Corian and similar materials. The
stuff can be had quite thick and can be glued. It is quite stable,
dense, wears well, and is pretty slick. Of course water doesn't
bother it so I would imagine using water soluble coolant would be OK.
Eric

You don't need coolant to drill aluminum. Commercially, most cutting
of aluminum today is done dry. "Coolant," when it's used, is there
mostly for its lubricating properties, to improve finish, not to cool.
In drilling, its main function is to help clear chips. That shouldn't
be a problem when you're just drilling a few mounting holes.

I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

You'll need drainage if you're going to cut wet. Most plastics aren't
going to produce very strong threads. Drilling most composites wears
tools out a lot faster than aluminum does.

If you can afford the aluminum, that's probably your best bet.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed, I am using a high speed router, not a Bridgeport, so I cannot cut standard aluminum dry. We are talking about 4 to 6mm endmills running at 10Krpm. There are lead-filled aluminum alloys which I can cut dry, but I can't get a square meter sheet of the stuff, nor would I want to.

I suppose I could use Aluminum, but it would be slow, and I'd have to tap the holes. I like the quick and dirty method of sinking deck screws into the MDF. Corian sounds worth trying.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 04:42:28 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM UTC+2, Boris Mohar wrote:
Synthetic countertop slab?

Are you talking about presswood countertop with a plastic laminate surface? I don't think so. For one thing, the screw threads would hold for only one use. For another, the coolant would drip through the holes and seep under the laminate, creating havoc. No, that's not an option. Sorry.

No. That would suck. I was thinking of synthetic stuff.

How about phenolic?


Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca

void _-void-_ in the obvious place



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On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:28:30 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes. I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

I've been using the white plastic "lumber" from home depot to make various fixtures, including vacuum plates for my (much smaller) mill. It works great, but I don't know if it's available in larger sizes.

On 2017-08-29, robobass wrote:

I suppose I could use Aluminum, but it would be slow, and I'd have to
tap the holes. I like the quick and dirty method of sinking deck screws
into the MDF. Corian sounds worth trying.

For either aluminum or Corian, I think that roll taps instead of
the normal cutting taps would be the best choice. You need a precise
tap drill size (*absolutely* not the same as for cutting taps), but you
don't have to worry about chips from the tapping accumulating in the
bottom of the hole -- there *are* none.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 8/29/2017 12:12 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:28:30 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes. I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

I've been using the white plastic "lumber" from home depot to make various fixtures, including vacuum plates for my (much smaller) mill. It works great, but I don't know if it's available in larger sizes.


It's available in sheets. Maybe not from HD, but it's out there.

I've been using the white plastic "lumber" from home depot to make various fixtures, including vacuum plates for my (much smaller) mill. It works great, but I don't know if it's available in larger sizes.

Interesting. I haven't seen what you are describing. How would you rate the surface flatness? I'd prefer not to have to face the whole board.

I found something called Tricoya, which is water resistant MDF designed for outdoor use. It is fairly cheap, and comes with a 50 year guarantee! Only up to 18mm thick, but I could work with that. It claims amazing properties for both moisture resistance and dimensional stability (http://tricoya.com/performance/). I think the problem is solved.

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 2:31:14 AM UTC+2, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2017-08-29, robobass wrote:

I suppose I could use Aluminum, but it would be slow, and I'd have to
tap the holes. I like the quick and dirty method of sinking deck screws
into the MDF. Corian sounds worth trying.

For either aluminum or Corian, I think that roll taps instead of
the normal cutting taps would be the best choice. You need a precise
tap drill size (*absolutely* not the same as for cutting taps), but you
don't have to worry about chips from the tapping accumulating in the
bottom of the hole -- there *are* none.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Not sure about this. Since these taps compress the material, wouldn't they push some of it up from the table surface? Also, my impression of Corian is that it is fairly brittle. I'd think you would just want a standard cutting tap for brittle materials.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 09:35:50 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/29/2017 12:12 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:28:30 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes. I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

I've been using the white plastic "lumber" from home depot to make various fixtures, including vacuum plates for my (much smaller) mill. It works great, but I don't know if it's available in larger sizes.


It's available in sheets. Maybe not from HD, but it's out there.

Was he referring to cellular PVC trim boards, such as AZEK? Due to
its 4-6x price over doug fir here in OR, I never worked with it. But
it's air-bubble-filled plastic and likely wouldn't pass the heat test,
though it would have no trouble with moisture from coolants. A bit of
mounding from direct installation of screws is also likely, as it is
with TREX decking and similar products.

-
I am a Transfinancial--A rich person born in a poor person's body.
Please stop the hate by sending me money to resolve my money
identity disorder. --anon

On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 01:57:56 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I found something called Tricoya, which is water resistant MDF designed for outdoor use. It is fairly cheap, and comes with a 50 year guarantee! Only up to 18mm thick, but I could work with that. It claims amazing properties for both moisture resistance and dimensional stability (http://tricoya.com/performance/). I think the problem is solved.

Maybe. It has a fascinating story either way.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...l-miracle-wood

-
I am a Transfinancial--A rich person born in a poor person's body.
Please stop the hate by sending me money to resolve my money
identity disorder. --anon

On 2017-08-31, robobass wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 2:31:14 AM UTC+2, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2017-08-29, robobass wrote:

I suppose I could use Aluminum, but it would be slow, and I'd have to
tap the holes. I like the quick and dirty method of sinking deck screws
into the MDF. Corian sounds worth trying.

For either aluminum or Corian, I think that roll taps instead of
the normal cutting taps would be the best choice. You need a precise
tap drill size (*absolutely* not the same as for cutting taps), but you
don't have to worry about chips from the tapping accumulating in the
bottom of the hole -- there *are* none.

Enjoy,
DoN.

Not sure about this. Since these taps compress the material, wouldn't
they push some of it up from the table surface?

Countersink it a little before running the tap in. Maybe a
single thread depth.

Also, my impression of
Corian is that it is fairly brittle. I'd think you would just want a
standard cutting tap for brittle materials.

It is worth an experiment if you have a scrap sample of it to
try.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Countersink it a little before running the tap in. Maybe a
single thread depth."
Good Idea. I still don't see the point, though. For non-malleable materials a cutting tap seems best.

I'm going to score some Tricoya. I can get it locally, it's affordable, though not cheap. I'm guessing it will perform similarly to my current MDF board, but maybe even better, not to mention that I can work wet. MDF has served me well. In four years I still haven't changed it. I can drill a pattern of mounting holes in minutes, and as long as the pilot size is correct it holds wood screws well, although not indefinitely. Since the Tricoya is only 18mm thick (my existing board is 21mm) I think I'll just mount an aluminum rail or two underneath. A full board is about $300, but will be enough for three tables. I'll post results in a few months!

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 01:26:19 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

"Countersink it a little before running the tap in. Maybe a
single thread depth."
Good Idea. I still don't see the point, though. For non-malleable materials a cutting tap seems best.

I'm going to score some Tricoya. I can get it locally, it's affordable, though not cheap. I'm guessing it will perform similarly to my current MDF board, but maybe even better, not to mention that I can work wet. MDF has served me well. In four years I still haven't changed it. I can drill a pattern of mounting holes in minutes, and as long as the pilot size is correct it holds wood screws well, although not indefinitely. Since the Tricoya is only 18mm thick (my existing board is 21mm) I think I'll just mount an aluminum rail or two underneath. A full board is about $300, but will be enough for three tables. I'll post results in a few months!

At $300 a sheet for Acoya, I hope they provided lube.

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

At $300 a sheet for Acoya, I hope they provided lube.

Actually, it's "Tricoya", but you're right about that. At least you can use water-based lube. Building materials are expensive here in Germany, but mostly the quality is pretty good.

On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 08:15:37 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:



At $300 a sheet for Acoya, I hope they provided lube.

Actually, it's "Tricoya", but you're right about that. At least you can use water-based lube.

I had heard of Acoya, but I guess that's the stick lumber. From their
website: Many of the benefits observed in Accoya® solid acetylated
wood, including enhanced dimensional stability and durability, hold
true in many of the composite configurations produced using Tricoya®.


Building materials are expensive here in Germany, but mostly the quality is pretty good.

"Ouch!" nonetheless. I guess with a near 40% tax, it would increase
prices on everything there. How's the refugee situation where you
are?

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 9:32:53 AM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 09:35:50 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/29/2017 12:12 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:28:30 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes. I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

I've been using the white plastic "lumber" from home depot to make various fixtures, including vacuum plates for my (much smaller) mill. It works great, but I don't know if it's available in larger sizes.


It's available in sheets. Maybe not from HD, but it's out there.

Was he referring to cellular PVC trim boards, such as AZEK? Due to
its 4-6x price over doug fir here in OR, I never worked with it. But
it's air-bubble-filled plastic and likely wouldn't pass the heat test,
though it would have no trouble with moisture from coolants. A bit of
mounding from direct installation of screws is also likely, as it is
with TREX decking and similar products.

-
I am a Transfinancial--A rich person born in a poor person's body.
Please stop the hate by sending me money to resolve my money
identity disorder. --anon

That's the stuff. It probably wouldn't handle heat very well, but the coolant ought to keep that in check.

Yes, there is a small amount of mounding where you drive in screws, but that can be handled by either pre-drilling, counterboring or giving it a small whack with the ball end of a ball-pein hammer, or with a ball-end punch.

As I said, it's working well for me, but this is a much smaller machine (Taig CNC mill), and even though the AZEK boards are much more expensive than Douglas Fir (or SYP, which is more prevalent around here), it's still quite affordable in fixturing-sized quantities.

On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 1:42:28 AM UTC-7, robobass wrote:
I suppose I could use Aluminum, but it would be slow, and I'd have to tap the holes. I like the quick and dirty method of sinking deck screws into the MDF. Corian sounds worth trying.

Corian is very expensive, and takes hachine screws after drilling and tapping, but not
wood screws.

1/4" thick fiberglass reinforced plastic or phenolic with tee nuts and glue?

http://www.atlasfibre.com/products/sheets-g10-fr4-g11-ce-le-g7-g9.html

Slab of slate, or soapstone, or other machinable rock?

On Sun, 3 Sep 2017 01:31:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 1:42:28 AM UTC-7, robobass wrote:
I suppose I could use Aluminum, but it would be slow, and I'd have to tap the holes. I like the quick and dirty method of sinking deck screws into the MDF. Corian sounds worth trying.

Corian is very expensive, and takes hachine screws after drilling and tapping, but not
wood screws.

1/4" thick fiberglass reinforced plastic or phenolic with tee nuts and glue?

http://www.atlasfibre.com/products/sheets-g10-fr4-g11-ce-le-g7-g9.html

Slab of slate, or soapstone, or other machinable rock?


I'd be worried about the threads stripping.

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 6:28:30 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
I have a router with an MDF table, 700x1100x21mm. I mostly dry cut brass, and also some wood and machinable aluminum. I would like to have a table which would allow me to cut wet, which I would be doing only occasionally. I could get a slotted aluminum table easily enough, but I kind of enjoy just drilling mounting holes where I need them. The first option would be a solid piece of aluminum, but then I would need coolant to drill the mounting holes. I'm wondering if there might be some composite material out there which would be easier to drill, and also be waterproof, and perhaps a bit more durable than the MDF. Any ideas?

1/2" cast polycarbonate (Lexan). You can drill, tap, helicoil, press-in inserts.

Very expensive, but very tough stuff. We used to hammer in threaded inserts with no ill effects.

i just got a piece of Corian type board. I find it pretty good. With the proper pilot hole it takes wood screws, and I can tap machine threads for the most used fixtures. 12mm is the thickest available, but it is quite stiff and I can run an aluminum bar down the middle underneath, so I'm not worried about sag. I can get a cut-off for about a hundred bucks. Not too bad...

'"Ouch!" nonetheless. I guess with a near 40% tax, it would increase
prices on everything there. How's the refugee situation where you
are?'

The sales tax is 19%. The refugee situation really isn't the problem that the AFD and foreign news services make it out to be. My daughter's school had to give up their gym to house them last year, but they have it back now. The reports of crime and harassment are totally overblown, and the vast majority of trouble has been caused not by the refugees but by xenophobic losers. A certain incident in a Berlin Christmas market excepted, but that guy was a criminal whose only ideology was that he wanted to go out with a splash.

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 23:55:10 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

i just got a piece of Corian type board. I find it pretty good. With the proper pilot hole it takes wood screws, and I can tap machine threads for the most used fixtures. 12mm is the thickest available, but it is quite stiff and I can run an aluminum bar down the middle underneath, so I'm not worried about sag. I can get a cut-off for about a hundred bucks. Not too bad...

'"Ouch!" nonetheless. I guess with a near 40% tax, it would increase
prices on everything there. How's the refugee situation where you
are?'

The sales tax is 19%.

Is that on top of a VAT, or are you counting the VAT as a sales tax?

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 23:55:10 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

i just got a piece of Corian type board. I find it pretty good. With the proper pilot hole it takes wood screws, and I can tap machine threads for the most used fixtures. 12mm is the thickest available, but it is quite stiff and I can run an aluminum bar down the middle underneath, so I'm not worried about sag. I can get a cut-off for about a hundred bucks. Not too bad...

'"Ouch!" nonetheless. I guess with a near 40% tax, it would increase
prices on everything there. How's the refugee situation where you
are?'

The sales tax is 19%.

My thinking is that the 39.9% income tax would have already raised
prices. I'd forgotten about the VAT.


The refugee situation really isn't the problem that the AFD and foreign news services make it out to be. My daughter's school had to give up their gym to house them last year, but they have it back now. The reports of crime and harassment are totally overblown, and the vast majority of trouble has been caused not by the refugees but by xenophobic losers. A certain incident in a Berlin Christmas market excepted, but that guy was a criminal whose only ideology was that he wanted to go out with a splash.

Oh? I guess you're lucky in your neighborhood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Ye...lts_in_Germany
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-figures-show/

I know that not all illegal aliens and refugees are not vicious
criminals, but the large percentage adds to our countries' problems.
Piranha and barracuda set loose in the goldfish bowl. Illegals broke
into my CA home 3 times. After the first, I put double-keyed locks on
the doors and it prevented a large percentage of the theft by them
having to go back out the window by which they broke in. One guy cut
himself so badly on the glass that he was caught by the blood trail he
left. Police caught all 3, and rather than charge and jail them, they
were supposedly deported.

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

You guys and your taxes... I really don't know how my income tax compares to yours exactly, but for a middle class guy like me I think it is about the same. Maybe a bit more, but we pay much less in property taxes. But, instead of making war and funding prisons with the money, the Germans subsidize preschool, so we don't pay for it additionally out of our own pocket.

There is quite a lot of stuff which gets taken care of by the state, so much less comes out of your own pocket. Trump's America could never adopt that model though, even if they agreed that it would benefit them. You guys are leading the human race into an early grave.

VAT and Sales tax? I also don't know the difference. I don't think there is one.

"robobass" wrote in message
...
You guys and your taxes... I really don't know how my income tax
compares to yours exactly, but for a middle class guy like me I think
it is about the same. Maybe a bit more, but we pay much less in
property taxes. But, instead of making war and funding prisons with
the money, the Germans subsidize preschool, so we don't pay for it
additionally out of our own pocket.

There is quite a lot of stuff which gets taken care of by the state,
so much less comes out of your own pocket. Trump's America could never
adopt that model though, even if they agreed that it would benefit
them. You guys are leading the human race into an early grave.

VAT and Sales tax? I also don't know the difference. I don't think
there is one.

=================
https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum...-umsatzsteuer/

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 05:42:07 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

You guys and your taxes... I really don't know how my income tax compares to yours exactly, but for a middle class guy like me I think it is about the same. Maybe a bit more, but we pay much less in property taxes. But, instead of making war and funding prisons with the money, the Germans subsidize preschool, so we don't pay for it additionally out of our own pocket.

Looking at several sources, I think you're right, they're similar.


There is quite a lot of stuff which gets taken care of by the state, so much less comes out of your own pocket. Trump's America could never adopt that model though, even if they agreed that it would benefit them. You guys are leading the human race into an early grave.

Yeah, if we got rid of paying for wars (including Iraq, Afghanistan,
Syria, NK, and the Wars on Poverty, Terror, and Trump, we'd do a lot
better. Also, paring off about 75% of our unnecessary governmental
structure, just that change could pay for healthcare and better
schooling.


VAT and Sales tax? I also don't know the difference. I don't think there is one.

I believe VAT is added at every step of manufacture, while sales tax
is only on retail sales. We have no sales tax in Oregon, but it's
about 10.25% in California where my family still lives.

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

VAT and Sales tax? I also don't know the difference. I don't think there is one.

I believe VAT is added at every step of manufacture, while sales tax
is only on retail sales. We have no sales tax in Oregon, but it's
about 10.25% in California where my family still lives.


Well VAT is indeed collected at every step, but you claim it back at all but the retail level. What does suck is imports. I have to buy certain things from overseas, and the customs office includes shipping costs in its duty calculations.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 00:43:34 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:


VAT and Sales tax? I also don't know the difference. I don't think there is one.

I believe VAT is added at every step of manufacture, while sales tax
is only on retail sales. We have no sales tax in Oregon, but it's
about 10.25% in California where my family still lives.


Well VAT is indeed collected at every step, but you claim it back at all but the retail level.

Oh? How does that happen?


What does suck is imports. I have to buy certain things from overseas, and the customs office
includes shipping costs in its duty calculations.

That does suck. That's totally unfair, but big government never said
it was fair.

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 00:43:34 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:


VAT and Sales tax? I also don't know the difference. I don't
think there is one.

I believe VAT is added at every step of manufacture, while sales
tax
is only on retail sales. We have no sales tax in Oregon, but it's
about 10.25% in California where my family still lives.


Well VAT is indeed collected at every step, but you claim it back at
all but the retail level.

Oh? How does that happen?


What does suck is imports. I have to buy certain things from
overseas, and the customs office
includes shipping costs in its duty calculations.

That does suck. That's totally unfair, but big government never
said
it was fair.


What is the gimmick behind free shipping of $5 items to the USA from
China?

On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 10:37:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 00:43:34 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:


VAT and Sales tax? I also don't know the difference. I don't think there is one.

I believe VAT is added at every step of manufacture, while sales tax
is only on retail sales. We have no sales tax in Oregon, but it's
about 10.25% in California where my family still lives.


Well VAT is indeed collected at every step, but you claim it back at all but the retail level.

Oh? How does that happen?


What does suck is imports. I have to buy certain things from overseas, and the customs office
includes shipping costs in its duty calculations.

That does suck. That's totally unfair, but big government never said
it was fair.

The usual term is CIF, Cost, Insurance, Freight and is the value of
the item when it reaches your hands.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Well VAT is indeed collected at every step, but you claim it back at all but the retail level.

Oh? How does that happen?

I'm not making this up. You just show what you have paid out, and the tax office refunds you the money. Hard to believe!