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Christopher Tidy February 12th 17 07:43 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Ignoramus20243 February 12th 17 08:02 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 2017-02-12, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust
badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite
suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the
paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague
allusions in most articles.


I thought that at some point, they started requiring galvanized body
panels.

i

Christopher Tidy February 12th 17 08:16 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
Am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2017 20:02:27 UTC+1 schrieb Ignoramus20243:

I thought that at some point, they started requiring galvanized body
panels.


This is also true, I think. But I don't see the modern paint cracking and falling off, so I'm wondering what's better about the paint.

dpb February 12th 17 08:28 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 02/12/2017 1:16 PM, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2017 20:02:27 UTC+1 schrieb Ignoramus20243:

I thought that at some point, they started requiring galvanized body
panels.


This is also true, I think. But I don't see the modern paint cracking
and falling off, so I'm wondering what's better about the paint.



Don't think there's any "requirement" other than what the manufacturer
thinks suits their purpose best as far as whether panels are/aren't
galvanized (or otherwise treated). I don't know what actually is most
common other than there's a tremendous fraction not that isn't even
metal; just pretty sure there's no mandate same. The mandates are
those for the fuel mileage averages so that means "lighter is better" in
ounces quantities.

As for paint, what has improved is they've finally figured out formulas
that have at least some longevity after the EPA restrictions on VOC's
killed all the traditional finishes as not being within those limits.

--


[email protected] February 12th 17 09:01 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:43:40 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris

Big thing was change to the surface preparation of the steel to
either electrostatic wet application or full body dip of a high
quality etching primer which I believe contains Zinc.
This was combined with the use of high strength steels and
"galvanized" steel in rust prone areas.

[email protected] February 12th 17 11:03 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 3:01:15 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:43:40 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris

Big thing was change to the surface preparation of the steel to
either electrostatic wet application or full body dip of a high
quality etching primer which I believe contains Zinc.
This was combined with the use of high strength steels and
"galvanized" steel in rust prone areas.


Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner.

--
Ed Huntress

Christopher Tidy February 14th 17 01:54 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
Am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2017 23:03:10 UTC+1 schrieb :

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner.


Are these modern coatings two-pack paints? Or some kind of stove enamel which is baked on? I also remember hearing something about paints which contained cyanide at some point.

I'd be interested to know the composition, because they seem way better than anything I can buy.

Thanks for the replies!

Chris

[email protected] February 14th 17 03:43 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 7:54:33 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2017 23:03:10 UTC+1 schrieb :

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner.


Are these modern coatings two-pack paints? Or some kind of stove enamel which is baked on? I also remember hearing something about paints which contained cyanide at some point.

I'd be interested to know the composition, because they seem way better than anything I can buy.

Thanks for the replies!

Chris


I wish I could give you a simple answer, but the chemistry of automobile paints has exploded in many directions over the past ten years or so, and the chemistry is mostly over my head.

Around the world, each manufacturer seems to use something different. There are water-born systems and solvent-born systems; two-wet and three-wet systems; integrated primers and self-sealing clear coats (Nissan). It's wild out there.

Some of the primers and clear coats are catalyzed before application. I *think* the base coats are not. Some are described as melamine-based; others are described as acrylic, urethane, or polyester. Water-based systems seem to make up the majority. Again, the chemistry is beyond me.

Before I retired I was working on an in-depth study of Ford's production, but I didn't get very far. They have a new two-wet system with no clear coat ("monocoat") and it may be the leading edge. I suspect it's from Axalta.

If you want to talk to someone who specializes in this stuff, I may be able to get you some names.

--
Ed Huntress


Larry Jaques[_4_] February 14th 17 02:52 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:54:28 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2017 23:03:10 UTC+1 schrieb :

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner.


Are these modern coatings two-pack paints? Or some kind of stove enamel which is baked on? I also remember hearing something about paints which contained cyanide at some point.

I'd be interested to know the composition, because they seem way better than anything I can buy.

Thanks for the replies!


At some point in the last 2-3 decades, I recall seeing a commercial on
TV where the US mfgr touted that both vehicle frames and body panels
being dipped in a rust-proofing hot bath of some sort. I quit TV 13
years ago, so it was well before that.

The painter at work sprayed my old '72 Int'l Scout with Imron, a
2-part aviation paint. It was over $100/gal way back then ('82,
$3-500 now), but a friend had given it to me, the spare from painting
his '48 Willys wagon. Tony was the kind of painter who was somehow
connected with the paint and he could colormatch and stand up the
metalflake replacement paint like the original, so you couldn't tell
the difference. A true _artist_.

Have you talked with painters or automotive paint supply shops there
across the pond, Chris? They're fonts of knowledge, if you can get
them to spare you a few minutes.

--
Give me the luxuries of life.
I can live without the necessities.
--anon

amdx[_3_] February 15th 17 11:18 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 2/12/2017 4:03 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 3:01:15 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:43:40 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris

Big thing was change to the surface preparation of the steel to
either electrostatic wet application or full body dip of a high
quality etching primer which I believe contains Zinc.
This was combined with the use of high strength steels and
"galvanized" steel in rust prone areas.


Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner.


Why the change to base plus clear coat?
I took an auto body class in high school, we had lacquer and enamel,
44 years ago.
The hood on my sons Toyota had faded and was blotchy. So I went to
the paint store to buy paint. I thought I wanted lacquer, I was quickly
educated that I wanted a base and a clear coat. It turned out good
especially for an outdoor job. We did end up with a small hazy area,
when we started the motor to move it in the garage, before the dew came.
Just one area on the right side near the windshield. I suspect
it would buff out, but he took the car back to college, so haven't
tried. Mikek


[email protected] February 16th 17 12:21 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:19:11 PM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
On 2/12/2017 4:03 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 3:01:15 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:43:40 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris
Big thing was change to the surface preparation of the steel to
either electrostatic wet application or full body dip of a high
quality etching primer which I believe contains Zinc.
This was combined with the use of high strength steels and
"galvanized" steel in rust prone areas.


Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner.


Why the change to base plus clear coat?
I took an auto body class in high school, we had lacquer and enamel,
44 years ago.
The hood on my sons Toyota had faded and was blotchy. So I went to
the paint store to buy paint. I thought I wanted lacquer, I was quickly
educated that I wanted a base and a clear coat. It turned out good
especially for an outdoor job. We did end up with a small hazy area,
when we started the motor to move it in the garage, before the dew came.
Just one area on the right side near the windshield. I suspect
it would buff out, but he took the car back to college, so haven't
tried. Mikek


Clear coats retain their gloss much longer than standard base coats -- up to eight years for some current ones -- and they contain IR blockers that extend the color life of base coats. They've been standard for years.

That is, for the common "three-wet" (primer, base, clear coat) systems used by most OEMs. As I mentioned earlier, Ford, among others, has gone to a "two-wet" system for commercial vehicles and probably will go that way for cars. The current two-wet system used by Ford supposedly maintains gloss for eight years without a clear coat, but it only works in light colors for now..

These are chemically so far removed from our experience with lacquers and enamels that it takes an expert to explain them accurately.

--
Ed Huntress

Christopher Tidy February 16th 17 01:25 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2017 03:43:47 UTC+1 schrieb :

If you want to talk to someone who specializes in this stuff, I may be able to get you some names.


Thanks, Ed. That's a kind offer. Here's the question in a different form. I'm working on a book and I want to know how to get a coating with a similar performance (modern car paint is, as far as I can see, way better than anything I can get in the shop). It doesn't have be a unique or comprehensive answer, but it needs to be a practical and understandable method. Any idea of someone who could help?

Best wishes,

Chris

Christopher Tidy February 16th 17 01:28 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2017 14:52:42 UTC+1 schrieb Larry Jaques:

Have you talked with painters or automotive paint supply shops there
across the pond, Chris? They're fonts of knowledge, if you can get
them to spare you a few minutes.


Good idea. I don't know of a specialist shop in the area, but I can look for one.

Gerry[_9_] February 16th 17 02:32 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:21:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:19:11 PM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
On 2/12/2017 4:03 PM,
wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 3:01:15 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:43:40 -0800 (PST), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris
Big thing was change to the surface preparation of the steel to
either electrostatic wet application or full body dip of a high
quality etching primer which I believe contains Zinc.
This was combined with the use of high strength steels and
"galvanized" steel in rust prone areas.

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than ever because the steel is thinner.


Why the change to base plus clear coat?
I took an auto body class in high school, we had lacquer and enamel,
44 years ago.
The hood on my sons Toyota had faded and was blotchy. So I went to
the paint store to buy paint. I thought I wanted lacquer, I was quickly
educated that I wanted a base and a clear coat. It turned out good
especially for an outdoor job. We did end up with a small hazy area,
when we started the motor to move it in the garage, before the dew came.
Just one area on the right side near the windshield. I suspect
it would buff out, but he took the car back to college, so haven't
tried. Mikek


Clear coats retain their gloss much longer than standard base coats -- up to eight years for some current ones -- and they contain IR blockers that extend the color life of base coats. They've been standard for years.

That is, for the common "three-wet" (primer, base, clear coat) systems used by most OEMs. As I mentioned earlier, Ford, among others, has gone to a "two-wet" system for commercial vehicles and probably will go that way for cars. The current two-wet system used by Ford supposedly maintains gloss for eight years without a clear coat, but it only works in light colors for now.

These are chemically so far removed from our experience with lacquers and enamels that it takes an expert to explain them accurately.

A number of years back, I had my '90 lumina van in to the dealers for
some type of service and the service advisor recomended that I visit
thier body shop about the clear coat failure on the (black) area above
the front seating section. They gave me a "quote" of $750.00 reduced
by 50% to $350.00 to return it to "as new". A few months latter, he
practicaly begged me toget it fixed for free. I presume thet it didn't
look good for GM's reputation.

Ignoramus20725 February 16th 17 02:42 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 2017-02-12, wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?

Leon Fisk February 16th 17 03:06 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 07:42:21 -0600
Ignoramus20725 wrote:

Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?


You got any repo lots around where they sell stuff? I've got a big one
not too far away and it's very educational to look through. All sorts
of models, years and condition with no cleanup, prepping done for
resale.

I spend most of my time looking underneath the vehicles. The
front wheel well on the Honda CRV is quite interesting. Doesn't look
like a very long lived design for this area and road salt.

Another one that caught my eye was a Buick Rendezvous. The gas filler
is located above the rear wheel well. The filler pipe is in the well
with a thin protective material over some of it.

The Chevy Colorado that has all the emergency brake cable connections
inline with where the left front tire will throw all the road spray on
them.

The 2007 Chevy Silverado that had rear frame rails with major crusty
rust trouble.

Most people look at the body color/paint, interior... I get down and
look all around underneath. The exhaust, drive shaft, suspension,
wheel wells, emergency brake cables, frame rails :)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


dpb February 16th 17 03:48 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 02/16/2017 8:06 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
....

Most people look at the body color/paint, interior... I get down and
look all around underneath. The exhaust, drive shaft, suspension,
wheel wells, emergency brake cables, frame rails :)


Years and years ago (before 1978 as hadn't made the TN from VA move yet)
used to travel to Cleveland and Wickliffe, OH, regularly for employer as
had a major subsidiary/vendor there. Once coming back to catch the
corporate flight back to Lynchburg that evening, an old rust-bucket
pickup literally did hit a serious pothole in the pavement and the frame
buckled behind the cab to the pavement. Created quite a backup pretty
quickly; fortunately I was able to get past and on to make the flight
but was educational!

I remember also that all the freeways were just littered with mufflers
and other body parts that had rusted to the point of falling off...not
what we were used to in Lynchburg, VA, or even in KS where, while it's
cold, it's so much drier don't have the rust issues.

--




amdx[_3_] February 16th 17 04:13 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 2/16/2017 7:42 AM, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12, wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?


A bit of an open ended question.
I have a 97 Toyota T-100 that still looks beautiful and runs great.
Will admit we had the sides of the bed repainted, not because of any
problem but because we used as a work truck and the idiots that loaded
it rubbed their belt buckles on the bed as they loaded it. They put a
bunch of scratches in the paint. I'm in the Florida sun and after 20
years the roof and hood still look good, we do garage it though.
Mikek

---
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Larry Jaques[_4_] February 16th 17 04:48 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 07:42:21 -0600, Ignoramus20725
wrote:

On 2017-02-12, wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?


Yes.


--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle


Leon Fisk February 16th 17 05:55 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:13:56 -0600
amdx wrote:

snip
I have a 97 Toyota T-100 that still looks beautiful and runs great.
Will admit we had the sides of the bed repainted, not because of any
problem but because we used as a work truck and the idiots that loaded
it rubbed their belt buckles on the bed as they loaded it. They put a
bunch of scratches in the paint. I'm in the Florida sun and after 20
years the roof and hood still look good, we do garage it though.


They have a reputation in the rustbelt :)

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=toyot...t+recall&kd=-1

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


[email protected] February 16th 17 07:49 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 07:42:21 -0600, Ignoramus20725
wrote:

On 2017-02-12, wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?

25 years if you take care of them. 5 to 7 if you don't. My daughter's
Honda is10? years old and the body is still spotless - and she has had
virtually no repairs. It is serviced regularly - the first years by
the dealer now by her Fiance who is a HD Truck mechanic.

Jim Wilkins[_2_] February 16th 17 09:19 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
"Ignoramus20725" wrote in
message ...
On 2017-02-12, wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s
by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I
realistically
expect them to last?


My 2000 CRV still looks nearly new, because I welded up a few small
rust holes and wax it yearly.
-jsw



amdx[_3_] February 17th 17 07:56 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 2/16/2017 10:55 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:13:56 -0600
amdx wrote:

snip
I have a 97 Toyota T-100 that still looks beautiful and runs great.
Will admit we had the sides of the bed repainted, not because of any
problem but because we used as a work truck and the idiots that loaded
it rubbed their belt buckles on the bed as they loaded it. They put a
bunch of scratches in the paint. I'm in the Florida sun and after 20
years the roof and hood still look good, we do garage it though.


They have a reputation in the rustbelt :)

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=toyot...t+recall&kd=-1


WOw! I'll need to climb under and check it out.
I expect I won't see any problems, it's been a Florida truck all it's
life, so no snow or salt on the underside. It just rolled over 100,000
miles in the last two weeks. Hmm, another 20 years will make me 81, I
might need to purchase another truck before I die. ;-)
Thanks for the heads up on the rust problem.

Mikek

---
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[email protected] February 17th 17 09:10 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 12:56:10 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 2/16/2017 10:55 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:13:56 -0600
amdx wrote:

snip
I have a 97 Toyota T-100 that still looks beautiful and runs great.
Will admit we had the sides of the bed repainted, not because of any
problem but because we used as a work truck and the idiots that loaded
it rubbed their belt buckles on the bed as they loaded it. They put a
bunch of scratches in the paint. I'm in the Florida sun and after 20
years the roof and hood still look good, we do garage it though.


They have a reputation in the rustbelt :)

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=toyot...t+recall&kd=-1


WOw! I'll need to climb under and check it out.
I expect I won't see any problems, it's been a Florida truck all it's
life, so no snow or salt on the underside. It just rolled over 100,000
miles in the last two weeks. Hmm, another 20 years will make me 81, I
might need to purchase another truck before I die. ;-)
Thanks for the heads up on the rust problem.

Mikek

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

If it has no rust yet, get a good oil type rust prevention spray on
it. Do they have Krown or RustChek down there? Or mabee Rusty Jones??

Leon Fisk February 17th 17 09:45 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 12:56:10 -0600
amdx wrote:

snip
WOw! I'll need to climb under and check it out.
I expect I won't see any problems, it's been a Florida truck all it's
life, so no snow or salt on the underside. It just rolled over 100,000
miles in the last two weeks. Hmm, another 20 years will make me 81, I
might need to purchase another truck before I die. ;-)
Thanks for the heads up on the rust problem.


No biggie but it you get around to looking I would be curious to know
how it looks :)

A friend/neighbor bought a 1976 Chevy K20 Pickup from Montana last
summer. Made a trip to trailer it back. I had a 1976 C10
Shortbox Pickup that was ridiculously rusted out by 1980. Bottom of the
tailgate, doors, front fenders, front of the hood, inner box fenders...
It was two years old when I bought it and immediately had it
rustproofed. It still looked good then... Anyway the truck he brought
back is in immaculate condition. I had warned him about that year and
rust but was I ever wrong. Still has the original paint. He just did
some routine maintenance, tires, exhaust, cab mounts... and drove it.
It has been appraised at $18000 to $22000 if I recall correctly.

So where you live can make a big difference...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


[email protected] February 18th 17 02:41 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 16:45:56 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 12:56:10 -0600
amdx wrote:

snip
WOw! I'll need to climb under and check it out.
I expect I won't see any problems, it's been a Florida truck all it's
life, so no snow or salt on the underside. It just rolled over 100,000
miles in the last two weeks. Hmm, another 20 years will make me 81, I
might need to purchase another truck before I die. ;-)
Thanks for the heads up on the rust problem.


No biggie but it you get around to looking I would be curious to know
how it looks :)

A friend/neighbor bought a 1976 Chevy K20 Pickup from Montana last
summer. Made a trip to trailer it back. I had a 1976 C10
Shortbox Pickup that was ridiculously rusted out by 1980. Bottom of the
tailgate, doors, front fenders, front of the hood, inner box fenders...
It was two years old when I bought it and immediately had it
rustproofed. It still looked good then... Anyway the truck he brought
back is in immaculate condition. I had warned him about that year and
rust but was I ever wrong. Still has the original paint. He just did
some routine maintenance, tires, exhaust, cab mounts... and drove it.
It has been appraised at $18000 to $22000 if I recall correctly.

So where you live can make a big difference...



HUGE difference

Ignoramus12212 February 18th 17 02:52 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 2017-02-16, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 07:42:21 -0600
Ignoramus20725 wrote:

Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?


You got any repo lots around where they sell stuff? I've got a big one
not too far away and it's very educational to look through. All sorts
of models, years and condition with no cleanup, prepping done for
resale.

I spend most of my time looking underneath the vehicles. The
front wheel well on the Honda CRV is quite interesting. Doesn't look
like a very long lived design for this area and road salt.

Another one that caught my eye was a Buick Rendezvous. The gas filler
is located above the rear wheel well. The filler pipe is in the well
with a thin protective material over some of it.

The Chevy Colorado that has all the emergency brake cable connections
inline with where the left front tire will throw all the road spray on
them.

The 2007 Chevy Silverado that had rear frame rails with major crusty
rust trouble.

Most people look at the body color/paint, interior... I get down and
look all around underneath. The exhaust, drive shaft, suspension,
wheel wells, emergency brake cables, frame rails :)


Very interesting. My wife had a CR/V for 10 years and it looked almost
new despite being parked outside. She is a gentle car user, for sure,
but still for Illinois it was impressive. Now she has a Honda Pilot,
the same story, great quality vehicle.

i

[email protected] February 21st 17 09:01 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 7:25:30 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2017 03:43:47 UTC+1 schrieb :

If you want to talk to someone who specializes in this stuff, I may be able to get you some names.


Thanks, Ed. That's a kind offer. Here's the question in a different form. I'm working on a book and I want to know how to get a coating with a similar performance (modern car paint is, as far as I can see, way better than anything I can get in the shop). It doesn't have be a unique or comprehensive answer, but it needs to be a practical and understandable method. Any idea of someone who could help?

Best wishes,

Chris


Sorry for the delay, Chris. I had surgery, and ten days later, my wife had surgery. I haven't been online for a while.

It sounds like you're talking about an aftermarket paint, right? Is it actually for cars, or something else?

And are you thinking of "performance" in terms of rust resistance, adhesion, gloss, or what?

Whenever I have questions like that, I go to DuPont, PPG, or similar companies and explain that I'm in need of an engineer, because I have technical questions. Sometimes customer service will direct me; other times, I have to go to marketing or press relations and explain that I'm writing something about it. That always works, although it can take a little time. Since you're writing a book, you should be able to leap that hurdle.

If you're not comfortable doing that, let me know what info you want and I'll get you some names and contact info. If you'd rather do it my email, the address above is valid (edhuntress2 [at] gmail.com.

Be aware that there are several approaches to protecting steel with aftermarket products: barriers; conversion coatings; and sacrificial coatings (zinc-loaded epoxy, for example). There is a lot of territory to cover.

--
Ed Huntress

[email protected] February 21st 17 09:03 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12, wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?


Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.

--
Ed Huntress

[email protected] February 21st 17 10:44 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?


Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.

A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.

[email protected] February 21st 17 11:09 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?


Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.

A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.


Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).

--
Ed Huntress

[email protected] February 22nd 17 05:49 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?

Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.

A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.


Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).

Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.

[email protected] February 22nd 17 05:57 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?

Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.
A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.


Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees..

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).

Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.


I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.)

--
Ed Huntress

David Billington[_2_] February 22nd 17 11:30 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On 22/02/17 04:57, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:
Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.

Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?
Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.
A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.
Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).

Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.

I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.)

A mate works in engine design and has worked on a number of projects for
Ford and he hates their projects as he said they make you justify every
change just to save fractions of a Euro cent. Likely someone has thought
long and hard about those fasteners and decided they could get away with
it. My mate mentioned the Ford baked potato joke which he said was funny
but all too true
http://www.carspyshots.net/showthread.php?t=9613 .

Garrett Fulton[_2_] February 22nd 17 05:29 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford.

[email protected] February 22nd 17 05:49 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 5:30:16 AM UTC-5, David Billington wrote:
On 22/02/17 04:57, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:
Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.

Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?
Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.
A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty..
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.
Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).
Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.

I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.)

A mate works in engine design and has worked on a number of projects for
Ford and he hates their projects as he said they make you justify every
change just to save fractions of a Euro cent. Likely someone has thought
long and hard about those fasteners and decided they could get away with
it. My mate mentioned the Ford baked potato joke which he said was funny
but all too true
http://www.carspyshots.net/showthread.php?t=9613 .


Ha-ha! That's a good one.

--
Ed Huntress


[email protected] February 22nd 17 09:37 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:57:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?

Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.
A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.

Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).

Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.


I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.)

Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use
either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is
virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today with
EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese
Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be???

[email protected] February 22nd 17 09:45 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a
gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford.

They have virtually ALL done it on at least one model, and it was not
a cost saving measure, in the main. It was because they had customers
complaininh about high cold oil pressure, or low hot idle oil
pressure, and they were all wasting WAY too much time and effort
trying to explain why it was "normal". To avoid class action lawsuits
for faulty oil pressure they simply made a n "idiot guage". Looks like
"higher content" than an idiot light.

[email protected] February 22nd 17 10:43 PM

Modern car paint and rust
 
Garrett Fulton wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is.


I was looking at something about the new 2018 Mustang and they were saying it was the largest V8 ever installed. I don't remember if it was for just among Mustangs or Fords in general or in anything else though.

Jim Wilkins[_2_] February 23rd 17 12:27 AM

Modern car paint and rust
 
"Garrett Fulton" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly.
Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does
anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition
and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most
articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest
Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern
about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had
noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to
the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as
his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the
exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice
guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the
pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance.
When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure
needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as
I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved
them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate
all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal
experience, that's always a gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the
time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero
and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way
too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A
guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he
said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they
still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last
Ford.

=================

My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all
but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a
resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance
sender.
http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html

I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the
dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows
whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face
isn't graduated in pressure units.

Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware
under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips,
though not graded steel bolts.
-jsw




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