Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Modern car paint and rust

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 3:37:42 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:57:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?

Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.
A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.

Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).
Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.


I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.)

Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use
either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is
virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today with
EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese
Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be???


Most underhood fasteners I've seen are conversion coated with zinc or some other phosphate. The bolts on my Hyundai have a black coating on top of some kind of zinc. After 12 years it's gotten pretty fluffy and looks like electrogalvanizing.

The Ford bolts look uncoated.

--
Ed Huntress
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Default Modern car paint and rust

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:45:18 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a
gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford.

They have virtually ALL done it on at least one model, and it was not
a cost saving measure, in the main. It was because they had customers
complaininh about high cold oil pressure, or low hot idle oil
pressure, and they were all wasting WAY too much time and effort
trying to explain why it was "normal". To avoid class action lawsuits
for faulty oil pressure they simply made a n "idiot guage". Looks like
"higher content" than an idiot light.

I was looking at the oil gauge in my Toyota truck and was a little
concerned that it would show right at the lowest mark when idling. I
wondered if maybe I should start to worry about the truck because it
is a '95. Then upon reading the manual I find that proper oil pressure
when idling is 3 lbs. Now I don't worry.
Eric
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Default Modern car paint and rust

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 3:37:42 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:57:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST),

wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5,
Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,

wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and
protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often
are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers;
galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and
electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into
the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't
weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got
thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a
continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels
that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger
problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I
realistically
expect them to last?

Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many
variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more
or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig
into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years
is a frequent target for the latest treatments.
A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation"
warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.

Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight
and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they
aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are
looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases
for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system,
which they aren't using for cars yet).
Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really
"clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.


I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far,
they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood
of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel
fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over
galvanized or stainless.)

Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use
either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is
virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today
with
EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese
Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be???


Most underhood fasteners I've seen are conversion coated with zinc or
some other phosphate. The bolts on my Hyundai have a black coating on
top of some kind of zinc. After 12 years it's gotten pretty fluffy and
looks like electrogalvanizing.

The Ford bolts look uncoated.

--
Ed Huntress

Despite New England winter road salt the hardware on my 91 Ford came
off easily and was still in good shape when I removed the bed, gas
tank and front-to-rear brake line last summer. LPS-3 long ago helped
but I couldn't reach everywhere underneath with it.
-jsw


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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 16:19:58 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:45:18 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris

Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a
gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford.

They have virtually ALL done it on at least one model, and it was not
a cost saving measure, in the main. It was because they had customers
complaininh about high cold oil pressure, or low hot idle oil
pressure, and they were all wasting WAY too much time and effort
trying to explain why it was "normal". To avoid class action lawsuits
for faulty oil pressure they simply made a n "idiot guage". Looks like
"higher content" than an idiot light.

I was looking at the oil gauge in my Toyota truck and was a little
concerned that it would show right at the lowest mark when idling. I
wondered if maybe I should start to worry about the truck because it
is a '95. Then upon reading the manual I find that proper oil pressure
when idling is 3 lbs. Now I don't worry.
Eric

Can you immagine being the service manager having to explain that to
half of the paranoid customers at a dealership? They'd be "calling you
anything but a white man", convinced you were lying to them, just
trying to put off repairs untill THEY had to pay because it was off
warranty? THAT is why they invented the "idiot guage"

I went through that as a Toyota service manager many times. On a hot
day the customer would come in complaining the OP guage was reading
half a needle width lower - or after changing the oil - Or they'd come
in complaing the oil pressure was too high and they were told by some
backyard mechanic friend that it would cause the oil to get too hot,
and waste gas - - -


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On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 3:45:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a
gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford.

They have virtually ALL done it on at least one model, and it was not
a cost saving measure, in the main. It was because they had customers
complaininh about high cold oil pressure, or low hot idle oil
pressure, and they were all wasting WAY too much time and effort
trying to explain why it was "normal". To avoid class action lawsuits
for faulty oil pressure they simply made a n "idiot guage". Looks like
"higher content" than an idiot light.


So, you're saying GM, Chrysler and the rest are doing this? Do you remember where you read this information?
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 08:29:44 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed - and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to the paint composition and surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil pressure reading in his new Ford F-150. He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always came up to the exact same level and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had done. The pressure always remained at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto advice guy at PM said on his year/model of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure switch with a fixed resistance. When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle to the same location. In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto manufacturer ever pulled one like that. Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the interstate all day and one or more cam bearings are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a
gradual decrease of oil pressure. By the time the oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the backup idiot light comes on, the engine has been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely already trashed. A guy I worked with had a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the way my truck acts!". Now I don't know if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my last Ford.


WHAT? It wasn't that way in my old '90 F-150 5L. Nor is it in my '07
Tundra 4.7L. They lowered at idle and raised at high RPM, and varied
with the engine temp, as they should.

That's unconscionable, as well as downright rude of Ford if it's true.
But the local Ford dealer wanted over $40k for the same half ton
pickemup truck that Toyota wanted $26k for. That was back when Ford
was having quality problems and was thinking about offshoring more of
its vehicles to Mexico. My old '90 was Hecho in Canuckistan.
(Windsor, ON CA IIRC.) I'm happy I made the change to the better
manufacturer, as I've been quite happy with the new truck for a
decade.

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:37:41 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:57:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 11:49:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:09:42 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 4:44:19 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:03:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 8:42:27 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus20725 wrote:
On 2017-02-12,
wrote:

Right. It's better coatings, better primers and protection, and
better application. Read, water-based coatings that often are based
on urethanes; phosphate and weldable, etching primers; galvanizing
in rust-prone areas; and electrophoresis and electrostatic
application. The first water-based coatings -- used into the '80s by
some manufacturers -- had poor adhesion and didn't weather
well. They're MUCH better now.

All of this became more necessary as body panels got thinner, with
the use of AHSS (advanced high-strength steels; a continuing
evolution of the HSLA [high-strength, low-alloy] steels that were
first used in the '70s). Rust is potentially a bigger problem than
ever because the steel is thinner.


Ed, if I buy a modern car like a Honda, how long can I realistically
expect them to last?

Jeez, that's above my pay grade, Ig. There are just too many variables. I can tell you, though, that eight years is more or less the industry benchmark these days, and when you dig into their technical literature, you'll find that ten years is a frequent target for the latest treatments.
A lot of today's vehicles have a 10 year rust "perforation" warranty.
If you get a bubble in the paint you KNOW there is perforation
allowing moisture in from the back.

Right. Those warranties generally are for perforation. The eight and ten-year terms I was talking about are for gloss -- and they aren't guarantees.

As I think I mentioned, the newer automotive paint systems are looking for gloss, usually for the clear coat, but in some cases for the base coat with no clear coat (like Ford's new system, which they aren't using for cars yet).
Even Ford's "clear coat" in the early 2000s isn't really "clear" - it
is a translucent colour coat (It's pealing a few spots on the '02
Taurus.


I'm keeping an eye on my 2004 Focus and my 2004 Sonata. So far, they're both bright and shiny, with no rust (except under the hood of the Focus, which has what looks like plain carbon steel fasteners under the hood. Stupid, to save maybe 50 cents over galvanized or stainless.)

Stainless never used under the hood - nor Galvanized We used to use
either electro-zinc or more commonlt cadmium plating - but it is
virtually impossible to do cadmium plating in North America today with
EPA rules. The choice is plain steel American bolts or Chinese
Cadmium. What would YOUR choice be???


Plain zinc, y'mean?

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all
but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a
resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance
sender.
http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html

I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the
dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows
whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face
isn't graduated in pressure units.


So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a
diamond scribe and felt-tip?


Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware
under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips,
though not graded steel bolts.


SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut
and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex
al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like
putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course) and
fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock
over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every thread
to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the
sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S.

At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than
drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT.

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

v

Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been
doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot
guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport
3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by
replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the
circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is
grounded.
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:32:05 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all
but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a
resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance
sender.
http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html

I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the
dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows
whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face
isn't graduated in pressure units.


So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a
diamond scribe and felt-tip?


Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware
under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips,
though not graded steel bolts.


SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut
and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex
al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like
putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course) and
fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock
over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every thread
to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the
sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S.

At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than
drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT.

Good trick.
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Electronic dash boards are always suspect. There are small computing
elements everywhere nowadays. I notice mine reads once a while. And at
startup to begin with. If cold - low gas, low oil, low battery. After
the engine warms up or I drive a half mile or a full one the meters
re-measure and there I go. Not all that bad. Not low on anything.

So it is often the first reading that fakes one out - taking it at an
odd time.

Martin

On 2/22/2017 10:29 AM, Garrett Fulton wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

Quick question. Many cars from the 1980s used to rust badly. Sometime in the 1990s, this changed -


and quite suddenly. Does anyone know what specific changes were made to
the paint composition and

surface treatment? I can only find vague allusions in most articles.

Thanks,

Chris


Here's how cheap Ford is. About 15 yrs. ago I was reading the latest Popular Mechanics


auto advice column. A guy wrote in with a concern about his oil
pressure reading in his new Ford F-150.

He said he had noticed when it was started cold, the oil pressure always
came up to the exact same level

and never decreased once the engine got warm, as his previous pickup had
done. The pressure always remained

at the exact same place no matter engine temperature or RPM. The auto
advice guy at PM said on his year/model

of pickup, Ford had replaced the pressure transmitter with a pressure
switch with a fixed resistance.

When the switch closed, it would always deflect the oil pressure needle
to the same location.

In other words, an idiot light. As far as I've seen, no other auto
manufacturer ever pulled one like that.

Saved them what? $1.50 a truck? So, here you are doing 70 on the
interstate all day and one or more cam bearings

are starting to go. From personal experience, that's always a gradual
decrease of oil pressure. By the time the

oil pressure gauge on your P.O.S. Ford pickup drops to zero and the
backup idiot light comes on, the engine has

been operating way too long on insufficient oil pressure and is likely
already trashed. A guy I worked with had

a new Ford pickup. I read him the column and he said,"That's just the
way my truck acts!". Now I don't know

if they still practice this world class chicken^&*(, but I've had my
last Ford.

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On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

v

Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been
doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot
guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport
3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by
replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the
circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is
grounded.


I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light.

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

v

Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been
doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot
guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport
3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by
replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the
circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is
grounded.


I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light.

Hopefully the pilots aren't as "brain dead" as a lot of car
owners/drivers. The ones I had the most trouble with were bloody
engineers and hoity-toity "connoisseurs" who fancied themselves
automotive experts just because they could afford to buy whatever
crossed their fancy at the time. "MY porsche never had that kind of
pressure fluctuation" (or insert Audi, Mercedes, Ferrari, or whatever)
after buying a new Supra or whatever.
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all
but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a
resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance
sender.
http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html

I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the
dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows
whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face
isn't graduated in pressure units.


So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a
diamond scribe and felt-tip?


Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware
under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips,
though not graded steel bolts.


SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut
and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex
al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like
putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course)
and
fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock
over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every
thread
to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the
sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S.

At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than
drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT.


Four decades, specifically.

The can of Never-Seez I bought around 1975 finally ran low last year,
though I still have plenty of LPS-100 for frame and bumper bolts.
Spark plug threads given a single dab with the brush attached to the
cap come out the next time completely covered, I don't need to mess up
my fingers, tools and the plug insulator with a greasy rag. That end
of the plug will see only a bit of the silicone from the wire boot.

Since it contains metal dust it isn't a good high voltage insulator. I
just checked a 10mm long stripe of it on a paper towel with a 1
kilovolt megger. Well before I was cranking fast enough to reach 1000V
it suddenly broke down and indicated about 2 megohms.

I do know about drilling broken bolts. One of the screws attaching the
Ranger's defective ignition module to the intake manifold sheared off.
The manifold is too big to clamp on my mill, so I machined a drill jig
(guide) that indexed on the other screws and drilled the broken one
cleanly enough to reuse the threads in the aluminum manifold.
-jsw


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On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 12:15:16 AM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

v
Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been
doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot
guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport
3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by
replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the
circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is
grounded.


I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light.

Hopefully the pilots aren't as "brain dead" as a lot of car
owners/drivers. The ones I had the most trouble with were bloody
engineers and hoity-toity "connoisseurs" who fancied themselves
automotive experts just because they could afford to buy whatever
crossed their fancy at the time. "MY porsche never had that kind of
pressure fluctuation" (or insert Audi, Mercedes, Ferrari, or whatever)
after buying a new Supra or whatever.


Most of the pilots were good guys. But you always had that 10%. "The Cactus Crew". You know the difference between a cactus and a cockpit? A cactus has all the pricks on the outside.

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

v

Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been
doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot
guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport
3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by
replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the
circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is
grounded.


I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light.


Well, I was an airplane mechanic too and if I remember all the
instruments has colored marks on them to tell the Engineer when the
oil pressure (for example) got too low :-)

As for the guys in the front seats, they had a big loud warning bell,
buzzer. siren, to tell the drivers when they slowed down too much :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.



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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 00:15:15 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

v
Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been
doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot
guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport
3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by
replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the
circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is
grounded.


I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light.

Hopefully the pilots aren't as "brain dead" as a lot of car
owners/drivers. The ones I had the most trouble with were bloody
engineers and hoity-toity "connoisseurs" who fancied themselves
automotive experts just because they could afford to buy whatever
crossed their fancy at the time. "MY porsche never had that kind of
pressure fluctuation" (or insert Audi, Mercedes, Ferrari, or whatever)
after buying a new Supra or whatever.


Yes, let's hope that pilots and airplane mfgrs are building (and
reading properly) complete/calibrated gauge units and senders. It
would be a shame to send the 10,000+RPM spinny parts into the cabin at
speed and altitude, cutting the plane in half because a sending unit
said it still had oil pressure when it didn't.

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 23:25:01 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:32:05 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 18:27:35 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

My 1991 Ford Ranger has the gauge package instead of lights and all
but Oil are functional. The Oil gauge uses a pressure switch and a
resistor that you can bypass if you install a variable-resistance
sender.
http://forums.tccoa.com/37-work-prog...auge-pics.html

I bought the $20 sensor and may install it if I have to remove the
dash for another reason. However the gauge as-is instantly shows
whether the engine has adequate pressure or not, and the dial face
isn't graduated in pressure units.


So install a temporary dial gauge and mark the dash gauge with a
diamond scribe and felt-tip?


Is there a reason other than cost for not using stainless hardware
under the hood? I've been using it to replace broken plastic clips,
though not graded steel bolts.


SS loves to gall and seize, and it can be worse with same grade nut
and bolt, so use a good anti-seize. A $7 bottle of Permatex
al/cu/graphite from Amazon (8oz) will last you for decades. I like
putting a dollop of it on an old wool sock (laundered, of course) and
fold/squeeze it to distribute. Then take your bolt, fold the sock
over the threaded portion and rotate 270 degrees, coating every thread
to the root very quickly. Coats dozens before regooping. Store the
sock in a ziplock bag for later use, keeping it with the A/S.

At 5 minutes per entire project, it's a lot less time consuming than
drilling out and tapping one single broken bolt. DAMHIKT.

Good trick.


Thanks. I hate waste and frozen bolts.

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

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"John B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:
....
Well, I was an airplane mechanic too and if I remember all the
instruments has colored marks on them to tell the Engineer when the
oil pressure (for example) got too low :-)

As for the guys in the front seats, they had a big loud warning
bell,
buzzer. siren, to tell the drivers when they slowed down too much
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.


The Air France crash in the South Atlantic is a good example of the
difficulty of predicting in advance what warning the operator should
be given while their attention is on controlling the vehicle. Too much
or misleading info can be worse than not enough.

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/a...air-france-447
"At one point the pilot briefly pushed the stick forward. Then, in a
grotesque miscue unforeseen by the designers of the fly-by-wire
software, the stall warning, which had been silenced, as designed, by
very low indicated airspeed, came to life. The pilot, probably
inferring that whatever he had just done must have been wrong,
returned the stick to its climb position and kept it there for the
remainder of the flight."

I read the CVR transcript in French and it supports the article's
conjectures. The airliner descended approximately level in or near a
Deep Stall, relatively stable in nose-high pitch but not in roll,
which kept the cockpit crew fully occupied and confused about what was
happening. The flight controls had less than their normal effect and
the engines showed the expected full power RPMs though they weren't
receiving the airflow to produce the corresponding thrust.

The pitot tubes had iced up in the storm's rising (super?)saturated
air and given the pilots and flight control computer incorrect low
airspeed values, initiating the problem, then probably soon thawed and
showed similar correct low values of forward airspeed because by then
the plane had gently stalled in Coffin Corner and was falling mainly
downward, its forward indicated airspeed below the stall warning low
cutoff until the captain tried nosing down, which was the proper way
to break out of the stall and regain airspeed and control.

Similarly, a NASA engineer told me the inside story of Neil
Armstrong's computer "failure" during the moon landing. The computer
serviced all inputs in a program loop. There was a warning light kept
Off by a hardware watchdog timer that the program would reset on each
pass unless it hung. The timeout was comfortably long enough in all
preflight tests but during the moon landing some added tasking
extended the loop beyond the timeout and allowed the warning light to
flicker On before the end of each loop pass, which Armstrong
interpreted as the failure it was supposed to indicate, not just an
unexpectedly high workload.

I knew something of the issue from designing industrial control panels
and then watching mindless UAW drones misuse them. I learned that
controls had to be not only idiot-proof but vandal-proof. Although I
had no design input on the aerospace electronics I prototyped I paid
attention to the discussions about their possible effect on cockpit
situational awareness. There was a joke circulating at the time that
the automated airliner cockpit of the future would contain a man and a
dog. The dog was trained to bite the man if he touched the controls.
The man's only task was to feed the dog.

-jsw


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On 02/23/2017 8:29 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
....

I knew something of the issue from designing industrial control panels
and then watching mindless UAW drones misuse them. I learned that
controls had to be not only idiot-proof but vandal-proof. Although I
had no design input on the aerospace electronics I prototyped I paid
attention to the discussions about their possible effect on cockpit
situational awareness. There was a joke circulating at the time that
the automated airliner cockpit of the future would contain a man and a
dog. The dog was trained to bite the man if he touched the controls.
The man's only task was to feed the dog.


Not only aircraft; TMI-II became something more than just a turbine trip
causing a reactor trip with the sidebar of a steam relief valve not
reclosing automagically because the latter caused an anomolous level
reading in the physically nearby pressurizer level. This was
misinterpreted by reactor operators and they subsequently turned off the
safety system HPI (high pressure injection) pumps fearing were going to
overfill the pressurizer and if that were to happen, risk
over-pressurizing the primary system itself. The incident progressed
downhill from there until a fresh shift came on and the SRO on that
shift recognized the problem and restarted HPI plus RCPs to restore
primary coolant flow and begin the recovery process.

If the original crew had done nothing but let the control and safety
systems do their job instead of intervening, the incident would have
consisted of no more than an unscheduled trip and restart once the
initiating fault in the transmission yard that was the initiating event.
(They lost connection to the grid owing to transformer failure at full
power (850 MWe) which left nowhere for the generator output to go so
that initiated the turbine trip. System was designed to be able to
handle a "full load rejection" trip, but owing to various other
conditions, runback couldn't always be fast enough so a reactor trip
could also be expected maybe half the time.)

--




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"dpb" wrote in message
news
On 02/23/2017 8:29 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

I knew something of the issue from designing industrial control
panels
and then watching mindless UAW drones misuse them. I learned that
controls had to be not only idiot-proof but vandal-proof. Although
I
had no design input on the aerospace electronics I prototyped I
paid
attention to the discussions about their possible effect on cockpit
situational awareness. There was a joke circulating at the time
that
the automated airliner cockpit of the future would contain a man
and a
dog. The dog was trained to bite the man if he touched the
controls.
The man's only task was to feed the dog.


Not only aircraft; TMI-II became something more than just a turbine
trip causing a reactor trip with the sidebar of a steam relief valve
not reclosing automagically because the latter caused an anomolous
level reading in the physically nearby pressurizer level. This was
misinterpreted by reactor operators and they subsequently turned off
the safety system HPI (high pressure injection) pumps fearing were
going to overfill the pressurizer and if that were to happen, risk
over-pressurizing the primary system itself. The incident
progressed downhill from there until a fresh shift came on and the
SRO on that shift recognized the problem and restarted HPI plus RCPs
to restore primary coolant flow and begin the recovery process.

If the original crew had done nothing but let the control and safety
systems do their job instead of intervening, the incident would have
consisted of no more than an unscheduled trip and restart once the
initiating fault in the transmission yard that was the initiating
event. (They lost connection to the grid owing to transformer
failure at full power (850 MWe) which left nowhere for the generator
output to go so that initiated the turbine trip. System was
designed to be able to handle a "full load rejection" trip, but
owing to various other conditions, runback couldn't always be fast
enough so a reactor trip could also be expected maybe half the
time.)


Neon John is the expert on that incident. I've discontinued my
research on recent infrastructure accidents which could be mistaken
for a search for exploitable vulnerabilities.


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On 02/23/2017 11:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
....

Neon John is the expert on that incident. ...


No idea who that might be; I was (nuke) engineer at the reactor vendor
until the summer before the incident; had at the time just moved to Oak
Ridge w/ small consulting firm; we were on incident response team via
contract to NRC by 9AM the morning of the incident so I'm pretty-much
familiar with both the specific reactor design and the incident...

--

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"dpb" wrote in message
news
On 02/23/2017 11:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

Neon John is the expert on that incident. ...


No idea who that might be; I was (nuke) engineer at the reactor
vendor until the summer before the incident; had at the time just
moved to Oak Ridge w/ small consulting firm; we were on incident
response team via contract to NRC by 9AM the morning of the incident
so I'm pretty-much familiar with both the specific reactor design
and the incident...

--


John DeArmond


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On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
...
I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years.
I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including
my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8.


Yeah, those 1880's were some years, weren't they. Haha, just kidding. But anyway, could you imagine the looks on a bunch of cowboys and indians faces if they saw a 1967 Pontiac revving up?
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:44:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:39:46 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:56:25 -0800 (PST), Garrett Fulton
wrote:

v
Don't have to read it. I was a mechanic for many years. They've been
doing it for years. I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot
guage" including my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport
3.8. Most of them can't even be converted to a full guage by
replacing the sensor because they do NOT have a resistor in the
circuit. The meter is designed to go half scale when the sensor is
grounded.


I'll accept it if you saw it that much. Ford was the only one I'd known about. I was an airline mechanic. We sure had nothing like that. Just my .02, but it seems like deceiving a buyer to sell him a car with an oil pressure gauge that is nothing but an idiot light.


Well, I was an airplane mechanic too and if I remember all the
instruments has colored marks on them to tell the Engineer when the
oil pressure (for example) got too low :-)

As for the guys in the front seats, they had a big loud warning bell,
buzzer. siren, to tell the drivers when they slowed down too much :-)

Also the BFRL - Big Flashing Red Light for when anything else goes
wrong.


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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"dpb" wrote in message
news
On 02/23/2017 11:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

Neon John is the expert on that incident. ...


No idea who that might be; I was (nuke) engineer at the reactor
vendor until the summer before the incident; had at the time just
moved to Oak Ridge w/ small consulting firm; we were on incident
response team via contract to NRC by 9AM the morning of the
incident so I'm pretty-much familiar with both the specific reactor
design and the incident...

--


John DeArmond


Sorry if I wasn't clear that I meant -I- don't know much about TMI,
not you.


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wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 11:22:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
...
I was a mechanic for many years. They've been doing it for years.
I've worked on a lot of vehicles with the "idiot guage" including
my last Chryslers and my 1885 Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8.


Yeah, those 1880's were some years, weren't they. Haha, just
kidding. But anyway, could you imagine the looks on a bunch of
cowboys and indians faces if they saw a 1967 Pontiac revving up?


Its performance on the roads of the time wouldn't impress anyone. An
Army friend in Germany had a gorgeous 72 Firebird Trans Am that
bottomed out too easily on German back roads. Cobblestones and some
older concrete stretches of Autobahn were a risk for it too.


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On 02/23/2017 4:36 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
....

Sorry if I wasn't clear that I meant -I- don't know much about TMI,
not you.


Ahhhh...gotcha' (now )...thanks.

Was only using the incident to agree with the earlier anecdote that the
human often _is_ the weak link in the chain/loop.


--
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 19:02:55 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:06:08 -0500, William Bagwell
wrote:


Nice catch! But it has been done, though it was a slightly newer
Delorean not a 67 Pontiac.

Great Scott!
Heavy!


Where's my spare flux capacitor?

"They" have kits now.
http://geekologie.com/2014/12/30000-...conversion.php


Ouch! 30 grand is a bit out of my price range.

My Delorean story:

Back in the late 70s I bought a used Miller TIG welder. Mid 80s I
got married and needing cash sold it. The person who bought it was
from out of state and showed up in a rental truck. (Leaving out a
bunch here) Apparently in a hurry because he initially declined my
offer of the power disconnect switch. Big ugly thing that had been
re-painted, on top of *rust*, many years before...

A few days later he changed his mind and called me back asking for
the disconnect. I said sure, and he asked if I could meet his buddy
at a local mall. Friend shows up in a Delorean! We proceeded to
stick a nasty rusty flaking paint disconnect box in the trunk of a
(then) brand new car.
--
William
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On 02/24/2017 03:19 PM, William Bagwell wrote:

My Delorean story:

Back in the late 70s I bought a used Miller TIG welder. Mid 80s I
got married and needing cash sold it. The person who bought it was
from out of state and showed up in a rental truck. (Leaving out a
bunch here) Apparently in a hurry because he initially declined my
offer of the power disconnect switch. Big ugly thing that had been
re-painted, on top of *rust*, many years before...

A few days later he changed his mind and called me back asking for
the disconnect. I said sure, and he asked if I could meet his buddy
at a local mall. Friend shows up in a Delorean! We proceeded to
stick a nasty rusty flaking paint disconnect box in the trunk of a
(then) brand new car.


Snyder National Bank, in Snyder, Texas, had a 24K Gold-Plated DeLorean
im the lobby when I lived there in the late 80s. It's now at the
Petersen Automotive Museum in Los Angeles. The factory apparently
gold-plated three of them, and a fourth was assembled from spare parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Iz2WBGiMo

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On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 18:19:25 -0500, William Bagwell
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 19:02:55 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:06:08 -0500, William Bagwell
wrote:


Nice catch! But it has been done, though it was a slightly newer
Delorean not a 67 Pontiac.

Great Scott!
Heavy!


Where's my spare flux capacitor?

"They" have kits now.
http://geekologie.com/2014/12/30000-...conversion.php


Ouch! 30 grand is a bit out of my price range.


Yeah, probably out of the reach of most people, and the suppliers.
Mr. Fusions are really hard to source, but if they ever come out,
== I WANT ONE! ==


My Delorean story:

Back in the late 70s I bought a used Miller TIG welder. Mid 80s I
got married and needing cash sold it. The person who bought it was
from out of state and showed up in a rental truck. (Leaving out a
bunch here) Apparently in a hurry because he initially declined my
offer of the power disconnect switch. Big ugly thing that had been
re-painted, on top of *rust*, many years before...

A few days later he changed his mind and called me back asking for
the disconnect. I said sure, and he asked if I could meet his buddy
at a local mall. Friend shows up in a Delorean! We proceeded to
stick a nasty rusty flaking paint disconnect box in the trunk of a
(then) brand new car.


That's funny. They were cool and unusual cars...if you didn't do
coke.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/54600...-john-delorean


--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

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