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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a
piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
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#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
wrote in message
... I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric A good initial assumption is that if the process is inherently linear you need trims for gain and offset. The offset trim corrects for zero errors such as a minimum pulse width to open the valve. You might find that 1 gives no fluid, 2 gives 1 unit, 3 gives 2 units, 4 gives 3 units, etc. -jsw |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
wrote in message
... I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to work with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for low pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction you can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for a lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc. Will a piston be controllable and do the job? An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after with filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is water, not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just need two linear pots to control them. |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote:
. The existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about .008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line. Eric You have the wrong kind of injector. Sounds like a throttle body injector. You need a conventional injector, the type that mounts on each individual intake runner. It will have one hole. The pintle injector usually has a little pattern-shaping rod sticking out of the hole. The diaphragm injectors as used by GM in the 80s and 90s (and probably longer) shoot a narrow solid stream. This is the injector you want. If you go to the parts store, ask for an injector for an early 90s Chevy Caprice 9C1. This is the cop version of the caprice and contains an iron block Corvette engine. Corvette injectors would also work but the price would be higher. Bladder reservoirs are available from McMaster-Carr. I suggest going up in pressure. You might consider using hexane (McMaster) as the dilutent. It will mostly have evaporated by the time the shot reaches the target. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
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#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800, wrote: I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about .008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line. If the cylinder is emptying fast, perhaps you need a much larger reservoir. What kind of flow volume are you working with? ML per sec/min/hr? Ounces? If you need a certain direction and are having problems with the flow, consider machining a block of brass or AL with those characteristics and insert the injector into that. Perhaps drill and tap it for mister or spray nozzles? The injector would be turned into the flow meter rather than both meter and applicator. If it dribbles at the end of the run, perhaps you could put a valve on the spray tip block or tube. -- "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but Massah Ed, he doan tink it so. |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:49:11 -0500, Neon John wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote: . The existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about .008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line. Eric You have the wrong kind of injector. Sounds like a throttle body injector. You need a conventional injector, the type that mounts on each individual intake runner. It will have one hole. The pintle injector usually has a little pattern-shaping rod sticking out of the hole. The diaphragm injectors as used by GM in the 80s and 90s (and probably longer) shoot a narrow solid stream. This is the injector you want. If you go to the parts store, ask for an injector for an early 90s Chevy Caprice 9C1. This is the cop version of the caprice and contains an iron block Corvette engine. Corvette injectors would also work but the price would be higher. Bladder reservoirs are available from McMaster-Carr. I suggest going up in pressure. You might consider using hexane (McMaster) as the dilutent. It will mostly have evaporated by the time the shot reaches the target. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address Thanks for the injector info John. When it is all working I won't be using any type of diluent. The reason I am now is so I can practice without losing any of the actual cutting tool lubricant because it is so expensive. So I diluted some oil with some kerosene to mimic the the viscosity of the real stuff. Eric |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:49:11 -0500, Neon John wrote:
You have the wrong kind of injector. Sounds like a throttle body injector. You need a conventional injector, the type that mounts on each individual intake runner. It will have one hole. The pintle injector usually has a little pattern-shaping rod sticking out of the hole. The diaphragm injectors as used by GM in the 80s and 90s (and probably longer) shoot a narrow solid stream. This is the injector you want. If you go to the parts store, ask for an injector for an early 90s Chevy Caprice 9C1. This is the cop version of the caprice and contains an iron block Corvette engine. Corvette injectors would also work but the price would be higher. Bladder reservoirs are available from McMaster-Carr. I suggest going up in pressure. You might consider using hexane (McMaster) as the dilutent. It will mostly have evaporated by the time the shot reaches the target. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com The injector you mention above, the Chevy one, IS a throttle body injector. At least that's how they are listed online. I'm a little confused about injectors, I need to do some more research. Eric |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800, wrote: I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about .008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line. Eric Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern from a different application. It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve, as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my own design. Eric |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:59:45 -0800, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800, wrote: I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about .008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line. Eric Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern from a different application. It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve, as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my own design. Eric What make, model and engine is it from, or what is the number on it? |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
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#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 17:59:25 -0500, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:59:45 -0800, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800, wrote: I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about .008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line. Eric Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern from a different application. It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve, as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my own design. Eric What make, model and engine is it from, or what is the number on it? It's from an old Acura, 1980 someting vintage. I think. Anyway, here are the numbers: On the side with the + symbol near the connection-35310-23600 On the opposite side-9 260 930 013 The injector is an off white color. The orifice disc has 4 holes in it. There is also a symbol molded in that looks like the stylized H in an oval that Hyundai uses. But I was told it came from an Acura. Eric |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: wrote in message .. . I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to work with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for low pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction you can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for a lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc. Will a piston be controllable and do the job? An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after with filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is water, not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just need two linear pots to control them. A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be programmed with a M code. Eric |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 18:41:23 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: On 1/24/2017 6:13 PM, wrote: ... In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. ... Would it make that much difference? Would it make any difference? How much moisture could be absorbed from the air? There is probably a well known answer, except to me. I don't know if direct contact with humid air will cause any problems over time. Maybe not. But since I am building the thing from scratch I thought I would save time and do it now. The reservoir can be any shape so why not make it round and drop a piston in between the oil and the air? With my present system the oil is exposed to air and one type of oil did thicken over time. I don't know if it was because of exposure to moisture. The oil is vegetable based, proprietary, and the outfit selling it wouldn't say whether moisture could be a problem. I am now going to be using a different brand of MQL lube and I just want as many problems as possible worked out ahead of time. I am having fun figuring out how to make the new applicator system. Help from people here has been, well, very helpful. And as a bonus it's all metalworking related. Eric |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 17:25:31 -0800, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 17:59:25 -0500, wrote: On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:59:45 -0800, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 21:39:17 -0500, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:52:35 -0800, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:13:12 -0800, wrote: I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric I know, it's bad form to reply to one's own post but there it is. The nozzle idea didn't work. I had hoped the fluid would be coming out with enough velocity to deflect and follow a new path. Instead the nozzle just started to dribble. I watched the cylinder piston move though and it moves pretty fast so O-ring seals may be OK. The existing injector orifice plate holes must be drilled at an angle because that's how the jets of fluid come out. The holes are about .008" diameter so I'm thinking about trying to drill them straight with a .012" diameter drill. Maybe if the drill bit is held so that only about .05" is unsupported it will be stiff enough to avoid being deflected too much by the existing holes as they are opened up. Maybe I need to see if I can remove the orifice plate and replace it with one of my own. Perhaps a large hole can be machined in the existing orifice plate and a new one added directly on top that has a hole pattern better suited to applying lube in a straight line. Eric Or perhaps you can locate an injector with a tighter spray pattern from a different application. It's hard finding the right pattern Clare, there are so many. I really want a flat cone. Like a flat fan. The injector I have on hand does not use a pintle, but I don't know what the internals are like, what kind of valve it actually has. But I'm betting it has a needle valve, as opposed to a disc like the Lucas injectors. It may be possible to machine the orifice disc completely out and replace it with one of my own design. Eric What make, model and engine is it from, or what is the number on it? It's from an old Acura, 1980 someting vintage. I think. Anyway, here are the numbers: On the side with the + symbol near the connection-35310-23600 On the opposite side-9 260 930 013 The injector is an off white color. The orifice disc has 4 holes in it. There is also a symbol molded in that looks like the stylized H in an oval that Hyundai uses. But I was told it came from an Acura. Eric The part number is for an injector from a Hyundai or Kia. Beta 2 engine and they are rated at 190cc. They apparently actually test at 196cc at 45psi. You really want a Lucas style disc injector. see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oTirEZNRw8 I think a 3.8L GM V6 is one source but they are twice the flow rate of what you have. BMW 325E would be closer to what you have but needs a ballast resistor to run on 12 volts. (Low Impedence) 1.6 liter ford too - but those are not common in America. Some 5.7 Chevys used them too. along with a lot of others. |
#18
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Got the injector working
wrote in message
... On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 18:41:23 -0500, Bob Engelhardt wrote: On 1/24/2017 6:13 PM, wrote: ... In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. ... Would it make that much difference? Would it make any difference? How much moisture could be absorbed from the air? There is probably a well known answer, except to me. I don't know if direct contact with humid air will cause any problems over time. Maybe not. But since I am building the thing from scratch I thought I would save time and do it now. The reservoir can be any shape so why not make it round and drop a piston in between the oil and the air? With my present system the oil is exposed to air and one type of oil did thicken over time. I don't know if it was because of exposure to moisture. The oil is vegetable based, proprietary, and the outfit selling it wouldn't say whether moisture could be a problem. I am now going to be using a different brand of MQL lube and I just want as many problems as possible worked out ahead of time. I am having fun figuring out how to make the new applicator system. Help from people here has been, well, very helpful. And as a bonus it's all metalworking related. Eric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancidification "Akin to rancidification, oxidative degradation also occurs in other hydrocarbons, e.g. lubricating oils, fuels, and mechanical cutting fluids." |
#19
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Got the injector working
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:32:17 -0800, wrote:
The injector you mention above, the Chevy one, IS a throttle body injector. At least that's how they are listed online. I'm a little confused about injectors, I need to do some more research. That's why I specified the 9C1 version. The civilian Caprice has a boring throttle body injected V8. The cop version, the 9C1, has the iron block Corvette engine known as the L1 engine. You can look at Corvette or Camaro engines from that era too but the 9C1 injector (all identical) will likely be cheaper because the 9C1 is not a "sports car". John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
wrote in message
... On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message . .. I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to work with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for low pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction you can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for a lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc. Will a piston be controllable and do the job? An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after with filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is water, not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just need two linear pots to control them. A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be programmed with a M code. Eric I've been out of the communications contracting business for 27 days now so forgive me for being a little rusty. I forgot to mention there are modestly priced timers available already assembled. The Altronixs 6060 board comes to mind. Yeah they aren't as cheap as the components, but the time to make it up costs me more than the price of the board. |
#21
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:59:16 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message ... I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to work with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for low pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction you can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for a lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc. Will a piston be controllable and do the job? An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after with filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is water, not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just need two linear pots to control them. A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be programmed with a M code. Eric I've been out of the communications contracting business for 27 days now so forgive me for being a little rusty. I forgot to mention there are modestly priced timers available already assembled. The Altronixs 6060 board comes to mind. Yeah they aren't as cheap as the components, but the time to make it up costs me more than the price of the board. Or just get a cheap arduino and you can even implement "peak and hold" |
#22
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Got the injector working
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:59:16 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:10:36 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message ... I made up a little cylindrical reservoir that is pressurrized by a piston. I tried the injector with some oil that was thicker than the lube I intend to use. The result was oil that just dripped from the injector. An online look at DIY injector service made me wonder if the filter was restricting the flow so I removed the filter. Then, using oil thinned to the approximate viscosity of the real lube, I tried the injector again. It squirted pretty good at 30 PSI. The next thing to address is the reservoir. I'm not sure if a piston sealed with an O-ring is the best solution for applying pressure. There might be stiction of the O-ring so that the piston may not move smoothly enough causing erratic fluid delivery. If its a lubricating fluid,a nd the o-ring is of a material suitable to work with teh fluid it should work fine. Of course you need to size the o-ring groove properly for "just enough" o-ring engagement. I use o-rings for low pressure injection of plastisol (10-30 PSI maybe), and for high pressure retention of air (4500 PSI). Anyway, if you are worried about stiction you can go to a chrome lined hydraulic tube, but I use bare aluminum tube for a lot of applications. Low pressure air cylinders, plastisol injector, etc. Will a piston be controllable and do the job? An inflatable bladder would probably work well but I have no idea where to get something like that. I'll have to see if there is some sort of cup seal that would work better. In any case I don't think it's a good idea to have the lube exposed to the shop air, even though it's filtered, because there will always be a little moisture in the air. When I need pristine air I do have a nice refrigerated air drying system with particle filters but I don't generally use it. I switched my entire shop air distribution over to my refrigeration air drier and I really like it. I have filter seperators before and after with filter seperators on each CNC machine as well, but my main concern is water, not the miniscule amount of other stuff that might get in. The other thing I need to chnage is the spray pattern. Not sure how that's gonna get done yet. Maybe just a deflector slipped over the injector will work well enough and that's my first option. I've got a 555 timer system running and I will be weighing the oil squirted out once I have the pattern deal figured out. Once that's done then the timing can be set. I'd like to have some sort of knob to turn that has a linear relationship to the amount of fluid delivered. So that a setting of 4 would be twice as much fluid delivered as a setting of 2. Eric Once you get your 555 circuits figured out (two of them probably) you just need two linear pots to control them. A piston will do the job, it only needs to move when the pressure is relieved on one side when the injector is open. The other side of the piston is pressurized with shop air. I already have the 555 thing worked out. I have the pause between pulses and pulse length. So when power is supplied it starts the pulse/pause routine and stops when power is removed. Most of the time the pulse will be fairly short and the pause time long because a tap will be getting lubed and this needs to happen only once per hole. But when milling there will be short pause times. The timer activation and de-activation will be programmed with a M code. Eric I've been out of the communications contracting business for 27 days now so forgive me for being a little rusty. I forgot to mention there are modestly priced timers available already assembled. The Altronixs 6060 board comes to mind. Yeah they aren't as cheap as the components, but the time to make it up costs me more than the price of the board. I already have the timer made Bob, but thanks anyway. Eric |
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