Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Rising machine tool prices

Hi folks,

I was just looking at some old Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogues from the early 1900s. Here's an example of a page:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138493...posted-public/

That 20" bandsaw costs $31.65. If you figure out a current equivalent price (multiplier of 27), it comes to around $855. Seems cheap for a 300 lb cast iron machine to me, as do the other machine tools. A Jet 20" bandsaw now costs $3556.00:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93252591

Equivalents to the other manufactured products in the catalogue are mostly cheaper today (this guy has some interesting examples from the 1970s: http://cafehayek.com/2006/01/working_for_sea.html)

But what about machine tools? If they are more expensive, what's the cause? A rise in the cost of skilled labour, or less local competition among small foundries and machine shops? What do you think?

Chris
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On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:51:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Hi folks,


Please trim your lines to 72 characters. My word wrap is turned on
but your lines all go off the page into the 3rd screen.


I was just looking at some old Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogues from the early 1900s. Here's an example of a page:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138493...posted-public/

That 20" bandsaw costs $31.65. If you figure out a current equivalent price (multiplier of 27), it comes to around $855. Seems cheap for a 300 lb cast iron machine to me, as do the other machine tools. A Jet 20" bandsaw now costs $3556.00:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93252591

Equivalents to the other manufactured products in the catalogue are mostly cheaper today (this guy has some interesting examples from the 1970s: http://cafehayek.com/2006/01/working_for_sea.html)

But what about machine tools? If they are more expensive, what's the cause? A rise in the cost of skilled labour, or less local competition among small foundries and machine shops? What do you think?


Yes, your reasons, then add in unions, branding, and corporate greed
(possibly caused by attorneys who are pawning it off as feeding
shareholders). These aren't just price hikes, they're multipliers.

When the Chiwanese knockoffs can be sold for 1/4 the price of domestic
units, it isn't just quality of materials.


--
There is s no such thing as a hyphenated American who is
a good American.* The only man who is a good American is
the man who is an American and nothing else.* We are a
nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities.* We
are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.
--Theodore Roosevelt
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On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 9:42:20 AM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:51:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Hi folks,


Please trim your lines to 72 characters. My word wrap is turned on
but your lines all go off the page into the 3rd screen.


I was just looking at some old Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogues from the early 1900s. Here's an example of a page:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138493...posted-public/

That 20" bandsaw costs $31.65. If you figure out a current equivalent price (multiplier of 27), it comes to around $855. Seems cheap for a 300 lb cast iron machine to me, as do the other machine tools. A Jet 20" bandsaw now costs $3556.00:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93252591

Equivalents to the other manufactured products in the catalogue are mostly cheaper today (this guy has some interesting examples from the 1970s: http://cafehayek.com/2006/01/working_for_sea.html)

But what about machine tools? If they are more expensive, what's the cause? A rise in the cost of skilled labour, or less local competition among small foundries and machine shops? What do you think?


Yes, your reasons, then add in unions, branding, and corporate greed
(possibly caused by attorneys who are pawning it off as feeding
shareholders). These aren't just price hikes, they're multipliers.

When the Chiwanese knockoffs can be sold for 1/4 the price of domestic
units, it isn't just quality of materials.


Baloney. Look at that Sears bandsaw. It's a frail skeleton of a frame that probably couldn't deliver 1/2 hp -- if it had a motor, which it doesn't. It even has a wooden table.

The Jet has a 3 hp motor and the rigidity to deliver it. Its NET weight is 550 lb. The Sears saw has a SHIPPING weight of 300 lb -- of which 100 lb probably was a wooden crate.

If you want to make a fair comparison, compare the Sears saw with this:

http://tinyurl.com/z47rd7b

Then take off the motor and put bigger pulley wheels on it.

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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:51:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Hi folks,


Please trim your lines to 72 characters. My word wrap is turned on
but your lines all go off the page into the 3rd screen.


I was just looking at some old Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogues from
the early 1900s. Here's an example of a page:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138493...posted-public/

That 20" bandsaw costs $31.65. If you figure out a current
equivalent price (multiplier of 27), it comes to around $855. Seems
cheap for a 300 lb cast iron machine to me, as do the other machine
tools. A Jet 20" bandsaw now costs $3556.00:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93252591

Equivalents to the other manufactured products in the catalogue are
mostly cheaper today (this guy has some interesting examples from
the 1970s: http://cafehayek.com/2006/01/working_for_sea.html)

But what about machine tools? If they are more expensive, what's the
cause? A rise in the cost of skilled labour, or less local
competition among small foundries and machine shops? What do you
think?


Yes, your reasons, then add in unions, branding, and corporate greed
(possibly caused by attorneys who are pawning it off as feeding
shareholders). These aren't just price hikes, they're multipliers.

When the Chiwanese knockoffs can be sold for 1/4 the price of
domestic
units, it isn't just quality of materials.


The 1940's 6" Sears/AA metal lathe is similar to today's low end hobby
lathes, maybe better in some ways and worse in others like the
too-flexible spindle nose.
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70009
It's $31.95 price (in 1950?) equates to $319.97 in 2016 according to
this calculator:
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/




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Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 15:56:40 UTC+1 schrieb :

Baloney. Look at that Sears bandsaw. It's a frail skeleton of a frame that probably couldn't deliver 1/2 hp -- if it had a motor, which it doesn't. It even has a wooden table.

The Jet has a 3 hp motor and the rigidity to deliver it. Its NET weight is 550 lb. The Sears saw has a SHIPPING weight of 300 lb -- of which 100 lb probably was a wooden crate.

If you want to make a fair comparison, compare the Sears saw with this:

http://tinyurl.com/z47rd7b

Then take off the motor and put bigger pulley wheels on it.


Ed, this is interesting. Maybe I'm not comparing like with like. Does anyone know where I could find prices for the best machine tools from the same era?

Chris


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Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 15:56:40 UTC+1 schrieb :

http://tinyurl.com/z47rd7b


By the way, that link doesn't work.
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On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:53:49 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 15:56:40 UTC+1 schrieb :

http://tinyurl.com/z47rd7b


By the way, that link doesn't work.


It's for a "WEN 10 Two-Speed Band Saw with Stand and Worklight". Lots
of similar models. Harbor Freight sells one like this too. Here is the
real link:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/47348845

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On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 12:52:06 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 15:56:40 UTC+1 schrieb :

Baloney. Look at that Sears bandsaw. It's a frail skeleton of a frame that probably couldn't deliver 1/2 hp -- if it had a motor, which it doesn't.. It even has a wooden table.

The Jet has a 3 hp motor and the rigidity to deliver it. Its NET weight is 550 lb. The Sears saw has a SHIPPING weight of 300 lb -- of which 100 lb probably was a wooden crate.

If you want to make a fair comparison, compare the Sears saw with this:

http://tinyurl.com/z47rd7b

Then take off the motor and put bigger pulley wheels on it.


Ed, this is interesting. Maybe I'm not comparing like with like. Does anyone know where I could find prices for the best machine tools from the same era?

Chris


Hmmm. Try this one:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/WEN-10-Tw...light/47348845

Or, for a closer size, try this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/WEN-9-5-A...3966/206926978

These are low-end woodworking bandsaws, Chris. But they're probably better than the Sears machine in that catalog.

The Sears machine is framed with decorative but flimsy castings. Consider the resolution of forces from the wheels and the blade guide; they're transmitted through a circuitous and flexible route. A lot of machines were engineered like that in those days. They were crap in comparison with what we have today.

Individual on-machine motors were a novelty in 1902. A one-half horsepower motor was huge. I have a GE Century motor from the late 1920s or early '30s on my home made bench sander; one horsepower, and as big as a small microwave oven. Lifting it would give you a hernia. g).

Two years ago I scrapped my 1917 Taylor & Fenn C-frame knee mill. The scrap yard said it weighed 840 lb. It had a really massive C-frame, which was rigid as hell. But the knee was not. It was more flexible than a Series I Bridgeport.

When I tried to gift my knee mill to the American Precision Museum in VT, they politely refused it, telling me there probably were between 100 and 200 milling machine builders at the time. Many of them were poorly engineered. All of the Sears machines on that catalog page look flexible as hell. Some were foot-powered; others ran from overhead belts or, in today's terms, feeble sub-horsepower motors. They could get away with it when they had little power and weak tools, which is what they had. Today's machines can hardly be compared with them.

As for the prices for good commercial machine tools of the 1900 era, look for online copies of old issues of _American Machinist_. They're available online. FWIW, I was an editor at _AM_ once upon a time, but I don't go back quire that far. d8-)

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Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 19:47:22 UTC+1 schrieb :

Two years ago I scrapped my 1917 Taylor & Fenn C-frame knee mill. The scrap yard said it weighed 840 lb. It had a really massive C-frame, which was rigid as hell. But the knee was not. It was more flexible than a Series I Bridgeport.


Interesting. Doesn't a Bridgeport weigh close to 2000 lb?

When I tried to gift my knee mill to the American Precision Museum in VT, they politely refused it, telling me there probably were between 100 and 200 milling machine builders at the time. Many of them were poorly engineered. All of the Sears machines on that catalog page look flexible as hell. Some were foot-powered; others ran from overhead belts or, in today's terms, feeble sub-horsepower motors. They could get away with it when they had little power and weak tools, which is what they had. Today's machines can hardly be compared with them.


Maybe I'm misinformed about the quality of the old Sears, Roebuck stuff. I have a few manual machine tools from the 1960s and '70s which match or better any new machine I've seen (drill press, power hacksaw, bench grinder), but it's a different period of time and I chose those machines carefully.

Actually, I'm ogling that Jet bandsaw now. That looks nice.

As for the prices for good commercial machine tools of the 1900 era, look for online copies of old issues of _American Machinist_. They're available online. FWIW, I was an editor at _AM_ once upon a time, but I don't go back quire that far. d8-)


You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from that era?

Chris
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On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:09:39 PM UTC-5, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 19:47:22 UTC+1 schrieb :

Two years ago I scrapped my 1917 Taylor & Fenn C-frame knee mill. The scrap yard said it weighed 840 lb. It had a really massive C-frame, which was rigid as hell. But the knee was not. It was more flexible than a Series I Bridgeport.


Interesting. Doesn't a Bridgeport weigh close to 2000 lb?


Yes. A Series I weighs 1930 lb. However, it has a lot more weight up high and a broader base, with angle-head capability, multi-speed pulleys, and a motor, than my simple C-frame machine. My machine was somewhat smaller, which is why I got my hands on it. We had it re-scraped in 1968 and I used it in the shop of which I was a co-owner in the 1970s.

The Series I was a brilliant machine but the knee and table setup are pretty flimsy compared to a production machine. They had data tables to allow for compensation of end-to-end table sag with different workpiece weights.


When I tried to gift my knee mill to the American Precision Museum in VT, they politely refused it, telling me there probably were between 100 and 200 milling machine builders at the time. Many of them were poorly engineered. All of the Sears machines on that catalog page look flexible as hell. Some were foot-powered; others ran from overhead belts or, in today's terms, feeble sub-horsepower motors. They could get away with it when they had little power and weak tools, which is what they had. Today's machines can hardly be compared with them.


Maybe I'm misinformed about the quality of the old Sears, Roebuck stuff. I have a few manual machine tools from the 1960s and '70s which match or better any new machine I've seen (drill press, power hacksaw, bench grinder), but it's a different period of time and I chose those machines carefully.


Sears made a good 10-in. flat-way lathe, built by Atlas, and a smaller, 6-in. machine that Jim mentioned. I had one. Like many others, I bent the spindle and had to turn a new one in my 10-in South Bend. g

Some were good. Others were not.

Comparing US-built commercial machines from the '60s with today's hobby-machine imports is not a very fair comparison. My Walker-Turner drill press and Delta bandsaw are better than any of the Asian imports I've seen, except for the high-end Jet and Japanese machines.


Actually, I'm ogling that Jet bandsaw now. That looks nice.

As for the prices for good commercial machine tools of the 1900 era, look for online copies of old issues of _American Machinist_. They're available online. FWIW, I was an editor at _AM_ once upon a time, but I don't go back quire that far. d8-)


You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from that era?


No, not many from that far back. Sorry. Brown & Sharp was around then. So was LeBlond. Maybe I'll think of some more.

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Chris




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On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from that era?


You can find a lot of old catalogs on archive.com Like:

https://archive.org/details/generalcatalogof00toleuoft

https://archive.org/details/illustratedcatal00sell

https://archive.org/details/cataloguepriceli00frasrich

there are a lot more if you want to search...

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Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 20:33:05 UTC+1 schrieb Leon Fisk:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from that era?


You can find a lot of old catalogs on archive.com Like:

https://archive.org/details/generalcatalogof00toleuoft

https://archive.org/details/illustratedcatal00sell

https://archive.org/details/cataloguepriceli00frasrich

there are a lot more if you want to search...


Interesting. The prices of vices in the Frasse catalogue correspond roughly to what I'd expect to pay today (when you take inflation into account). Thanks for the links!
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On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:15:17 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

snip

Interesting. The prices of vices in the Frasse catalogue
correspond roughly to what I'd expect to pay today (when you
take inflation into account). Thanks for the links!


These may not be as old, but should keep you busy for some time:

http://www.alaskawoodworker.com/old-...s-and-manuals/

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People, anyone who is complaining about rising prices on anything is
totally missing the point.

We live in an era of continuing and accelerating progress. Everything
is becoming much better, more powerful, convenient and functional and
safe.

Even cars are becoming better. I have a chevy 2500 pickup with 160k
miles on it and it still drives like new. A couple things had to be
fixed (transmission and starter) but aside from that, this truck is by
far better than anything that existed before. I have cell phones,
internet, facebook, safe to use drill presses, CNC machinery that
costs a fraction of manual machinery to operate, etc.

I am delighted that I live in 2016 and not in 1916.

i
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"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
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On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from
that era?


You can find a lot of old catalogs on archive.com Like:

https://archive.org/details/generalcatalogof00toleuoft

https://archive.org/details/illustratedcatal00sell

https://archive.org/details/cataloguepriceli00frasrich

there are a lot more if you want to search...

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http://www.lathes.co.uk/

Pratt and Whitney machine tools were very highly regarded. They
weren't really aero engine makers, they rented Frederick Rentschler
some unused space to build his after he left Wright.




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On 2017-01-16, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Am Montag, 16. Januar 2017 15:56:40 UTC+1 schrieb :

http://tinyurl.com/z47rd7b


By the way, that link doesn't work.


It does for me. Firefox browser, Solaris 10 Operating system on
ULTRASparc CPU.

And that thing really looks flimsy -- in particular the support
legs. Blade speeds are woodworking only (maybe aluminum at the slower
speed, if not too thick, but certainly not steel or iron.)

Of course, I don't know the details of the Sears saw which
started this thread. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

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On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:33:07 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from that era?


You can find a lot of old catalogs on archive.com Like:

https://archive.org/details/generalcatalogof00toleuoft

https://archive.org/details/illustratedcatal00sell


Those are great. The cold saw on page 130 is a hoot. OSHA trembles.


https://archive.org/details/cataloguepriceli00frasrich


Treadle machines!

--
There is s no such thing as a hyphenated American who is
a good American.* The only man who is a good American is
the man who is an American and nothing else.* We are a
nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities.* We
are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.
--Theodore Roosevelt
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On 2017-01-17, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:33:07 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from that era?


You can find a lot of old catalogs on archive.com Like:

https://archive.org/details/generalcatalogof00toleuoft

https://archive.org/details/illustratedcatal00sell


Those are great. The cold saw on page 130 is a hoot. OSHA trembles.


Amazing catalog, I am most impressed.

I would be too scared to be int he vicinity of that cold saw.


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On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:41:28 -0600, Ignoramus24879
wrote:

On 2017-01-17, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:33:07 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:09:35 -0800 (PST)
Christopher Tidy wrote:

You remember any of the names of the best machine tool brands from that era?

You can find a lot of old catalogs on archive.com Like:

https://archive.org/details/generalcatalogof00toleuoft

https://archive.org/details/illustratedcatal00sell


Those are great. The cold saw on page 130 is a hoot. OSHA trembles.


Amazing catalog, I am most impressed.

I would be too scared to be int he vicinity of that cold saw.


I think I just might make a guard for the blade, y'know?

--
There is s no such thing as a hyphenated American who is
a good American.* The only man who is a good American is
the man who is an American and nothing else.* We are a
nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities.* We
are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.
--Theodore Roosevelt
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
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On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:41:28 -0600, Ignoramus24879
wrote:


I would be too scared to be int he vicinity of that cold saw.


I think I just might make a guard for the blade, y'know?



Out of curiosity, have you ever made anything out of steel plate
that's too thick to bend with hand tools?

My limited facilities for cutting and bending it strongly restrict
what I can design and build. The blade guard for my bandsaw lumber
mill is wood. This is the only inexpensive flat stock bending tool
I've found and it's limited to 4" width:
http://www.eastwood.com/4-inch-metal-bender.html

1/8" steel appears to be the limit for the Enco 8" bench shear, and it
distorts one side. If you are shearing a strip from a large sheet the
strip may have to be on the distorted side.

-jsw


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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:41:28 -0600, Ignoramus24879
wrote:


I would be too scared to be int he vicinity of that cold saw.


I think I just might make a guard for the blade, y'know?



Out of curiosity, have you ever made anything out of steel plate that's
too thick to bend with hand tools?

My limited facilities for cutting and bending it strongly restrict what I
can design and build. The blade guard for my bandsaw lumber mill is wood.
This is the only inexpensive flat stock bending tool I've found and it's
limited to 4" width:
http://www.eastwood.com/4-inch-metal-bender.html

1/8" steel appears to be the limit for the Enco 8" bench shear, and it
distorts one side. If you are shearing a strip from a large sheet the
strip may have to be on the distorted side.

-jsw


I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel) on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm saw
setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I can zip
thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room than a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


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On 1/18/2017 8:39 AM, Howard Beel wrote:
I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel) on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm saw
setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I can zip
thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room than a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


I have a nibbler that won't get anywhere near 1/4". Just to be sure
that it's the same thing - a "nibbler" cuts by punching crescent-shaped
chips, yes?

Your setup sounds interesting - any chance of your putting up some
pictures? I thought that I had the idea until you mentioned the 8'
sheet & I don't see how that would work.

Bob

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"Howard Beel" wrote in message
news

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:41:28 -0600, Ignoramus24879
wrote:


I would be too scared to be int he vicinity of that cold saw.

I think I just might make a guard for the blade, y'know?



Out of curiosity, have you ever made anything out of steel plate
that's too thick to bend with hand tools?

My limited facilities for cutting and bending it strongly restrict
what I can design and build. The blade guard for my bandsaw lumber
mill is wood. This is the only inexpensive flat stock bending tool
I've found and it's limited to 4" width:
http://www.eastwood.com/4-inch-metal-bender.html

1/8" steel appears to be the limit for the Enco 8" bench shear, and
it distorts one side. If you are shearing a strip from a large
sheet the strip may have to be on the distorted side.

-jsw


I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel)
on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a
couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm
saw setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I
can zip thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room than
a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


That's good to know if one appears second-hand.

I try to restrict my discussions to price-sensitive home hobbyist
equipment instead of the larger industrial stuff that would do the job
easily, if you have the need, money to invest and space to store it. I
like my 10" South Bend lathe very much, spent the morning on it, but
wouldn't send a newbie out searching for one.

I do have a plasma cutter and a bandsaw that can cut thicker steel to
eyeball tolerance, and if the better accuracy is worth the cost could
use the Maker Space's plasma cutter or have a shop do it.

Bending steel plate is a bigger problem unless I pay for fab shop
time. The 30" 3-in-1 shear/brake/roller can barely manage its rated
capacity.

-jsw




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On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 11:22:04 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Howard Beel" wrote in message
news

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:41:28 -0600, Ignoramus24879
wrote:


I would be too scared to be int he vicinity of that cold saw.

I think I just might make a guard for the blade, y'know?


Out of curiosity, have you ever made anything out of steel plate
that's too thick to bend with hand tools?

My limited facilities for cutting and bending it strongly restrict
what I can design and build. The blade guard for my bandsaw lumber
mill is wood. This is the only inexpensive flat stock bending tool
I've found and it's limited to 4" width:
http://www.eastwood.com/4-inch-metal-bender.html

1/8" steel appears to be the limit for the Enco 8" bench shear, and
it distorts one side. If you are shearing a strip from a large
sheet the strip may have to be on the distorted side.

-jsw


I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel)
on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a
couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm
saw setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I
can zip thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room than
a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


That's good to know if one appears second-hand.

I try to restrict my discussions to price-sensitive home hobbyist
equipment instead of the larger industrial stuff that would do the job
easily, if you have the need, money to invest and space to store it. I
like my 10" South Bend lathe very much, spent the morning on it, but
wouldn't send a newbie out searching for one.

I do have a plasma cutter and a bandsaw that can cut thicker steel to
eyeball tolerance, and if the better accuracy is worth the cost could
use the Maker Space's plasma cutter or have a shop do it.

Bending steel plate is a bigger problem unless I pay for fab shop
time. The 30" 3-in-1 shear/brake/roller can barely manage its rated
capacity.

-jsw


Have you checked job-shop prices for that work? Unless it's very narrow pieces, it sounds like a job for a press brake. I can get you a rough idea of how that is priced if you want. Just post a description of a typical job.

--
Ed Huntress

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"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/2017 8:39 AM, Howard Beel wrote:
I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel)
on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a
couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm
saw
setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I
can zip
thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room
than a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for
easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


I have a nibbler that won't get anywhere near 1/4". Just to be sure
that it's the same thing - a "nibbler" cuts by punching
crescent-shaped chips, yes?

Your setup sounds interesting - any chance of your putting up some
pictures? I thought that I had the idea until you mentioned the 8'
sheet & I don't see how that would work.

Bob


I have two air-powered nibblers that can cut large sheets - I sliced
an old metal swimming pool into manageable pieces with one.

This one makes the needle-sharp crescent chips. It's better for tight
freehand curves.
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/air-nibbler

This curls the cut strip into coils. It's easier to control on
straight cuts and doesn't require thorough cleanup with a magnet
afterwards.
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-air-shears.html

The steel of the uprights and top rail from the pool is a good balance
between stiffness and workability and the coating stands up pretty
well to a planishing hammer. The wall is thinner and easier to bend
with hand tools.

-jsw


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"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/2017 8:39 AM, Howard Beel wrote:
I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel) on
ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a
couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm saw
setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I can
zip
thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room than a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


I have a nibbler that won't get anywhere near 1/4". Just to be sure that
it's the same thing - a "nibbler" cuts by punching crescent-shaped chips,
yes?

Your setup sounds interesting - any chance of your putting up some
pictures? I thought that I had the idea until you mentioned the 8' sheet
& I don't see how that would work.

Bob


The nibbler is an ancient black & decker simular to this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-amp-De...-/271725607607

You take off the handle on the bussines end and replace it with a steel
plate that has a linear bearing
mounted on the left and right sides. I used 1" DOM that i picked out of the
scrap bin at my steel
supplier. Made 2 clamps, one clamp is placed on each end of the tubes. The
clamps are high enough
to allow the nibbler to move thru the work without any binding. You want to
use DOM with a fairley
thick wall so it won't sag if your gonna make long cuts. Sorry i don't have
any pics. Every thing is in
storage at the moment until the new shop gets built.

Best Regards
Tom.


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wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 11:22:04 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins
wrote:
....
Bending steel plate is a bigger problem unless I pay for fab shop
time. The 30" 3-in-1 shear/brake/roller can barely manage its rated
capacity.

-jsw


Have you checked job-shop prices for that work? Unless it's very
narrow pieces, it sounds like a job for a press brake. I can get you
a rough idea of how that is priced if you want. Just post a
description of a typical job.

--
Ed Huntress


I designed parts to be made on a Strippit and a Niagara press brake
though they wouldn't let me run either one. The model shop I inherited
at Mitre had a 24" manual press brake and a nice finger brake.

I'm attempting to stir up some discussion about what a hobbyist needs
in general instead of asking for help with my own personal projects,
other than to describe what I've learned about the equipment I own. I
can weld flat pieces together if the stock is too thick to bend, as I
did for 1/2" plate on a logsplitter.

-jsw


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"Howard Beel" wrote in message
news

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/2017 8:39 AM, Howard Beel wrote:
I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel)
on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach
a couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial
arm saw
setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I
can zip
thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room
than a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for
easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


I have a nibbler that won't get anywhere near 1/4". Just to be
sure that it's the same thing - a "nibbler" cuts by punching
crescent-shaped chips, yes?

Your setup sounds interesting - any chance of your putting up some
pictures? I thought that I had the idea until you mentioned the 8'
sheet & I don't see how that would work.

Bob


The nibbler is an ancient black & decker simular to this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-amp-De...-/271725607607

You take off the handle on the bussines end and replace it with a
steel plate that has a linear bearing
mounted on the left and right sides. I used 1" DOM that i picked out
of the scrap bin at my steel
supplier. Made 2 clamps, one clamp is placed on each end of the
tubes. The clamps are high enough
to allow the nibbler to move thru the work without any binding. You
want to use DOM with a fairley
thick wall so it won't sag if your gonna make long cuts. Sorry i
don't have any pics. Every thing is in
storage at the moment until the new shop gets built.

Best Regards
Tom.


Can you resharpen it?




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On 1/18/2017 12:09 PM, Howard Beel wrote:
The nibbler is an ancient black & decker simular to this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-amp-De...-/271725607607


Yeah - that'll do it. Mine is like the one in the link Jim posted.
Sheet metal.

I seldom have to make long cuts in 1/4". When I do, it's with a
steel-cutting blade in a worm-drive circular saw:
http://www.toolfetch.com/constructio...price:-30.html


VERY noisy, with orange-hot chips flying everywhere. Started a small
fire once.

You take off the handle on the bussines end and replace it with a steel
plate that has a linear bearing
mounted on the left and right sides. I used 1" DOM that i picked out of the
scrap bin at my steel
supplier. Made 2 clamps, one clamp is placed on each end of the tubes. ...


So, the tubes are at least 8' long, or do you re-position for a cut that
long?

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Default Rising machine tool prices

On 2017-01-18, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 1/18/2017 8:39 AM, Howard Beel wrote:
I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel) on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm saw


[ ... ]

I have a nibbler that won't get anywhere near 1/4". Just to be sure
that it's the same thing - a "nibbler" cuts by punching crescent-shaped
chips, yes?


Depends. My first nibbler was hand powered, made by Adel, and
sold for making cutouts in sheet metal to make instrument panels and the
like. That one cuts rectangular pieces -- 1/4" wide and something like
1/8" or perhaps 3/64" "long". Nominal thickness limit is 16 Ga in
steel, IIRC, but by filing a flat on the side of the screw which acts as
the stop, it can go a bit thicker in aluminum.

http://adelnibbler.com/

It can be started in a hole in the sheet metal, so you don't
have to start at an edge. Back when I used one regularly, I would drill
a hole (lagest bit I had at the time was a 5/16 S&D bit with a 1/4"
shank to fit the hand held electric drill, and then use a tapered reamer
to enlarge the hole to where the tool would fit through. Accroding to
the on-line instructions from the site above, it needed 7/6" as a
starting hole, and I usually went up to the 1/2" diameter of the tapered
reamer.

My God -- the price has increased. $49.95. I seem to remember
paying something like $7.00 for one. :-)

Later nibblers which I have acquired are air-powered tolls which
make the crescent shaped punchings. (Nasty sharp ones, BTW). I would be
careful using them in areas where you are likely to drive, as I can see
the crescents working their way through a tire.

There is also another tool -- once available as a hand powered
tool, now electric or air powered, which is a three-fingered shear --
the middle finger gones into a drilled hole, and shears on both sides of
that against the other two fingers. That produces a coil of metal, and
is best for cutting straight or gently curved lines. I've used one
air-powered one cutting against a bit of angle iron C-clamped to sheet
aluminum to get it down to the dimensions which my 24" DiAcro shear will
accept.

Your setup sounds interesting - any chance of your putting up some
pictures? I thought that I had the idea until you mentioned the 8'
sheet & I don't see how that would work.


With the crescent or the double-shear styles I can do that
against a angle-iron guide. The old Adel would tire my hand and make
reach rather difficult for an 8' cut. (Or, even a 4' cut for stock
4'x8' sheet metal.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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On 19 Jan 2017 03:10:11 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2017-01-18, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 1/18/2017 8:39 AM, Howard Beel wrote:
I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel) on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm saw


[ ... ]

I have a nibbler that won't get anywhere near 1/4". Just to be sure
that it's the same thing - a "nibbler" cuts by punching crescent-shaped
chips, yes?


Depends. My first nibbler was hand powered, made by Adel, and
sold for making cutouts in sheet metal to make instrument panels and the
like. That one cuts rectangular pieces -- 1/4" wide and something like
1/8" or perhaps 3/64" "long". Nominal thickness limit is 16 Ga in
steel, IIRC, but by filing a flat on the side of the screw which acts as
the stop, it can go a bit thicker in aluminum.

http://adelnibbler.com/

It can be started in a hole in the sheet metal, so you don't
have to start at an edge. Back when I used one regularly, I would drill
a hole (lagest bit I had at the time was a 5/16 S&D bit with a 1/4"
shank to fit the hand held electric drill, and then use a tapered reamer
to enlarge the hole to where the tool would fit through. Accroding to
the on-line instructions from the site above, it needed 7/6" as a
starting hole, and I usually went up to the 1/2" diameter of the tapered
reamer.

My God -- the price has increased. $49.95. I seem to remember
paying something like $7.00 for one. :-)

Later nibblers which I have acquired are air-powered tolls which
make the crescent shaped punchings. (Nasty sharp ones, BTW). I would be
careful using them in areas where you are likely to drive, as I can see
the crescents working their way through a tire.

There is also another tool -- once available as a hand powered
tool, now electric or air powered, which is a three-fingered shear --
the middle finger gones into a drilled hole, and shears on both sides of
that against the other two fingers. That produces a coil of metal, and
is best for cutting straight or gently curved lines. I've used one
air-powered one cutting against a bit of angle iron C-clamped to sheet
aluminum to get it down to the dimensions which my 24" DiAcro shear will
accept.

Your setup sounds interesting - any chance of your putting up some
pictures? I thought that I had the idea until you mentioned the 8'
sheet & I don't see how that would work.


With the crescent or the double-shear styles I can do that
against a angle-iron guide. The old Adel would tire my hand and make
reach rather difficult for an 8' cut. (Or, even a 4' cut for stock
4'x8' sheet metal.

Enjoy,
DoN.

I'm certain I paid less than $7.00 for mine when I bought it from
Allied Radio around 65 years ago,I still have it and use it
occasionaly. I think the toughest job I ever used it for was to cut an
8+ inch hole in the stainless steel lid from a commercial washing
machine to make a single burner, "in counter" stove for my home
brewery. I had blisters when I completed that little project!
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On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:47:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:41:28 -0600, Ignoramus24879
wrote:


I would be too scared to be int he vicinity of that cold saw.


I think I just might make a guard for the blade, y'know?



Out of curiosity, have you ever made anything out of steel plate
that's too thick to bend with hand tools?

My limited facilities for cutting and bending it strongly restrict
what I can design and build. The blade guard for my bandsaw lumber
mill is wood. This is the only inexpensive flat stock bending tool
I've found and it's limited to 4" width:
http://www.eastwood.com/4-inch-metal-bender.html


No, I haven't, being in the same boat as you. Luckily, my Griz 18"
bandsaur came with a nice metal guard.

I bought an HF tabletop bender but haven't yet used it. It's more for
band/strip/tubing, and small square/round stock though.


1/8" steel appears to be the limit for the Enco 8" bench shear, and it
distorts one side. If you are shearing a strip from a large sheet the
strip may have to be on the distorted side.


Do you have the fence/foot for it? If not, consider making one. I've
used them with and without, and WITH is the way to go. No more bent
stock (or shears!)

Hammers and dollies are your friends, too, where applicable.

--
There is s no such thing as a hyphenated American who is
a good American.* The only man who is a good American is
the man who is an American and nothing else.* We are a
nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities.* We
are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.
--Theodore Roosevelt
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On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:47:01 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/2017 8:39 AM, Howard Beel wrote:
I bought a hand held nibbler that has a 1/4" capacity (mild steel)
on ebay
back in the day when they were cheap. I made an adaptor to attach a
couple
of 1" linear bearings to the nibbler, kinda looks like a radial arm
saw
setup
but for steel. I get nice cuts that with little edge distortion. I
can zip
thru
8 foot of 1/4" plate in a few minutes. Takes up a lot less room
than a
wysong shear, less noisy to. When not in use it breaks down for
easy
storage and takes up little room.

Best Regards
Tom.


I have a nibbler that won't get anywhere near 1/4". Just to be sure
that it's the same thing - a "nibbler" cuts by punching
crescent-shaped chips, yes?

Your setup sounds interesting - any chance of your putting up some
pictures? I thought that I had the idea until you mentioned the 8'
sheet & I don't see how that would work.

Bob


I have two air-powered nibblers that can cut large sheets - I sliced
an old metal swimming pool into manageable pieces with one.

This one makes the needle-sharp crescent chips. It's better for tight
freehand curves.
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/air-nibbler

This curls the cut strip into coils. It's easier to control on
straight cuts and doesn't require thorough cleanup with a magnet
afterwards.
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-air-shears.html


Is 18ga a casually suggested or actual maximum for sheet thickness?
Salesmen usually oversell specs.

The body men where I used to work used air chisels and either electric
or air shears like the above. The chisel bits worked well on thin
sheet like fenders and 1/4 panels. Hover over the 3rd one down:
http://tinyurl.com/h3xmoun

Have you seen or used the Beverly style throatless air shears from HF?
I just saw them online. http://tinyurl.com/hpejdn8


The steel of the uprights and top rail from the pool is a good balance
between stiffness and workability and the coating stands up pretty
well to a planishing hammer. The wall is thinner and easier to bend
with hand tools.


Was that the skirting and frame for a pool, or the actual pool?

--
There is s no such thing as a hyphenated American who is
a good American.* The only man who is a good American is
the man who is an American and nothing else.* We are a
nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities.* We
are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house.
--Theodore Roosevelt


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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in

Can you resharpen it?



I don't know for shure. Never had a problem
cutting metal. I assume the punch and die are
removable and could be sharpened when
needed.

Best Regards
Tom.


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"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/2017 12:09 PM, Howard Beel wrote:
The nibbler is an ancient black & decker simular to this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-amp-De...-/271725607607


Yeah - that'll do it. Mine is like the one in the link Jim posted. Sheet
metal.

I seldom have to make long cuts in 1/4". When I do, it's with a
steel-cutting blade in a worm-drive circular saw:
http://www.toolfetch.com/constructio...price:-30.html

VERY noisy, with orange-hot chips flying everywhere. Started a small fire
once.

You take off the handle on the bussines end and replace it with a steel
plate that has a linear bearing
mounted on the left and right sides. I used 1" DOM that i picked out of
the
scrap bin at my steel
supplier. Made 2 clamps, one clamp is placed on each end of the tubes.
...


So, the tubes are at least 8' long, or do you re-position for a cut that
long?


The tubes are 9' long. I haven't noticed any any saging
at that length, if they do sag it does not seem to effect
anything when cutting ( no noticable binding ). As i
recall the tubes have 1/4" wall thickness. I also have
shorter tubes for smaller work.

Best Regards
Tom.



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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:47:01 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
................
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-air-shears.html


Is 18ga a casually suggested or actual maximum for sheet thickness?
Salesmen usually oversell specs.


The 22 gauge pool column steel was difficult to cut with a hand model,
more from slipping out than the cutting force. I don't remember how I
cut the approximately 18 gauge stainless for the bucket of my loader,
maybe the 8" Enco shear? I don't have any mild steel in that
thickness. A 24TPI blade in the 4" x 6" bandsaw cuts thicker sheet
metal well enough.

The companies I built equipment for chose 0.062" and 0.093" 6061
aluminum for electronic enclosures. I bought 0.050" 5052 for my hobby
work because 0.062" strains the 3-in-1, and most recently used
unlabelled 0.031 to fold a box. It cuts and bends like 6061 rather
than the flimsy aluminum in a Bud chassis, which had mistakenly
convinced me that 0.031 was too thin. The only minor problem is that
my stock of PEM nuts was salvaged from 0.062" scrap and they protrude
slightly through the 0.031". The flange can be bent back a little to
make the visible edges close flush.

The body men where I used to work used air chisels and either
electric
or air shears like the above. The chisel bits worked well on thin
sheet like fenders and 1/4 panels. Hover over the 3rd one down:
http://tinyurl.com/h3xmoun


I've used one to cut patch material from a scrap fender, so I wouldn't
have to shape the wheelwell flare from a flat sheet. I think it's
overly aggressive to cut out a small rust area near an edge.

Have you seen or used the Beverly style throatless air shears from
HF?
I just saw them online. http://tinyurl.com/hpejdn8


I've used a bench mounted Beverly shear at work. IIRC it distorted the
metal a little too much for flat control panels someone else paid me
to make but would have been fine for auto body repair. A warped
control panel can break meter bezels and pull out molded-in mounting
screws.

I always tried to make my sheet metal work look as professional as my
soldering. The Enco 8" bench shear leaves one side straight.

The steel of the uprights and top rail from the pool is a good
balance
between stiffness and workability and the coating stands up pretty
well to a planishing hammer. The wall is thinner and easier to bend
with hand tools.


Was that the skirting and frame for a pool, or the actual pool?


It was an above ground pool that bulged from freezing after the winter
air bags deflated. I sheared the wall into manageable sections that
now protect my woodsheds from brush/leaf fires. The thicker columns
and top rail sections are slowly disappearing into projects like
splash guards around the bottoms of the sheds and a closable box I can
neatly scoop the woodstove fire into to carry it outside and separate
the ash buildup from the hot charcoal without having to let the fire
die down as far. Shoveling the hot coals into a pail releases too much
ash and smoke. The custom box fits the door opening closely enough
that the draft draws the ash back in.

I bent the 2" wide decorative strips of wall metal that faced the
columns into U channels to rim 2' x 4' fireproof ceiling tiles to make
a generator sound dampening enclosure. Their unprotected edges shred
easily, otherwise they make good high temperature insulation with some
structural strength. A propane torch flame merely darkens the surface.
The wall metal is thin enough to bend by clamping between wood planks
and hammering down on a block that spreads the force and tightens the
fold.

-jsw


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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
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I try to restrict my discussions to price-sensitive home hobbyist
equipment instead of the larger industrial stuff that would do the job
easily, if you have the need, money to invest and space to store it. I
like my 10" South Bend lathe very much, spent the morning on it, but
wouldn't send a newbie out searching for one.

I do have a plasma cutter and a bandsaw that can cut thicker steel to
eyeball tolerance, and if the better accuracy is worth the cost could use
the Maker Space's plasma cutter or have a shop do it.

Bending steel plate is a bigger problem unless I pay for fab shop time.
The 30" 3-in-1 shear/brake/roller can barely manage its rated capacity.

-jsw


I agree price is always a consideration. I bought a lot of industrial
equiptment on ebay back in days when sellers were individuals
and the prices were right. Now it seems that ebay has been taken
over by dealers and resellers. I see the same equiptment relisted
over and over at retail prices. Sometimes i get lucky and come
accross a undervalued buy it now. Most of the time i buy things
from pawn shops or thrift stores, usually when they don't what
they have and underprice an item. At the moment i am out of
room and plan on building a bigger shop. I rent some space
to store things i rarley use.

When i need to bend heavy plate i do it in a 50 ton hydraulic
press. I made my own dies and punches out of 4140. For
round and square holes i use the stripit or unipunch holders.


Best Regards
Tom.



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Default Rising machine tool prices

"Howard Beel" wrote in message
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
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When i need to bend heavy plate i do it in a 50 ton hydraulic
press. I made my own dies and punches out of 4140. For
round and square holes i use the stripit or unipunch holders.


Best Regards
Tom.


I have only a 6 ton press and hardly use it enough to justify the
space it takes up. I lengthened the frame, put wheels under it and
store an arbor press (that gets more use) nested into it.


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