Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Amazing Chinese forging video

I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer
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Ignoramus15685 wrote:
I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer


I saw that yesterday, almost shared the link as well. It's a real ugly
operation until they machine the thing down. You can see calipers at one
point and the rest of the measuring seems to be with some sort of rod with
markings of some sort. My question is how consistent are those flanges
from the start of the shift to the end, or on a rainy day when they're
slipping in mud or anything like that.




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To hot for mud :-)

I suspect the rods were marked - hole smaller than this - and flange .....

The company doesn't want to pound out another or 50% for mistakes.

Wrought iron not pouring. And the base must be a beast into the ground!
Not much bounce in the ground near by or anywhere.

I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.

Martin

On 12/27/2016 12:34 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus15685 wrote:
I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer


I saw that yesterday, almost shared the link as well. It's a real ugly
operation until they machine the thing down. You can see calipers at one
point and the rest of the measuring seems to be with some sort of rod with
markings of some sort. My question is how consistent are those flanges
from the start of the shift to the end, or on a rainy day when they're
slipping in mud or anything like that.




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On 2016-12-28, Martin Eastburn wrote:
To hot for mud :-)

I suspect the rods were marked - hole smaller than this - and flange .....

The company doesn't want to pound out another or 50% for mistakes.

Wrought iron not pouring. And the base must be a beast into the ground!
Not much bounce in the ground near by or anywhere.

I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.


But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i

Martin

On 12/27/2016 12:34 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus15685 wrote:
I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer


I saw that yesterday, almost shared the link as well. It's a real ugly
operation until they machine the thing down. You can see calipers at one
point and the rest of the measuring seems to be with some sort of rod with
markings of some sort. My question is how consistent are those flanges
from the start of the shift to the end, or on a rainy day when they're
slipping in mud or anything like that.




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Default Amazing Chinese forging video

On 2016-12-27, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus15685 wrote:
I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer


I saw that yesterday, almost shared the link as well. It's a real ugly
operation until they machine the thing down. You can see calipers at one
point and the rest of the measuring seems to be with some sort of rod with
markings of some sort. My question is how consistent are those flanges
from the start of the shift to the end, or on a rainy day when they're
slipping in mud or anything like that.


It looks like they know what they are doing, removing last 1/2 inch or
so


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"Ignoramus15685" wrote in
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I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge
drop hammer


Metalworking in China is about as old as in India and the Near East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...lurgy_in_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._in_South_Asia
http://mathewpeet.org/science/materials/steel/history/

AFAICT the development in each region depended on the characteristics
of the local ore, such as the phosphorus content that makes cast iron
easier to melt and pour but steel weaker.


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Default Amazing Chinese forging video

On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:43:58 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus22750 wrote:




I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.


But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i

Cast is not as strong as forged.

I can still remember seeing anchor chain being drop forged in the navy shipyard in Boston in about 1954 or 1955.

Dan
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wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:43:58 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus22750
wrote:




I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the
final.


But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i

Cast is not as strong as forged.

I can still remember seeing anchor chain being drop forged in the
navy shipyard in Boston in about 1954 or 1955.

Dan


http://www.cashenblades.com/images/a...s/lowdown.html


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Default Amazing Chinese forging video

Ignoramus15685 wrote:

I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop
hammer

Geez, what a dangerous occupation. A few of them were at least wearing face
shields, but if anything went wrong, somebody could be killed for sure!
Guys holding several TONS of yellow-hot steel with tongs from just a few
FEET away, while that drop hammer just wails away on the piece.

Sheesh, I can only imagine how long those guys work at this before somebody
gets hurt BADLY. Probably just weeks before they have to reset the "days
since last accident" clock back to zero.

Jon
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On 12/28/2016 1:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
....

Sheesh, I can only imagine how long those guys work at this before somebody
gets hurt BADLY. Probably just weeks before they have to reset the "days
since last accident" clock back to zero.


The one resource for certain the Chinese don't lack is manpower...




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On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:43:58 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus22750 wrote:
On 2016-12-28, Martin Eastburn wrote:
To hot for mud :-)

I suspect the rods were marked - hole smaller than this - and flange ......

The company doesn't want to pound out another or 50% for mistakes.

Wrought iron not pouring. And the base must be a beast into the ground!
Not much bounce in the ground near by or anywhere.

I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.


But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i


That piece is not iron. It's steel. Of course, if you're a nitpicker, steel is a type of iron. d8-) Big pieces of wrought iron are very rare and have been for around a century.

Cast iron is strong in compression -- stronger than forged (wrought) iron. But, except for ductile iron and malleable, more or less, it's weaker in tension and it's very brittle. You would not open-die forge any ductile or malleable iron to the degree of this example. It's not up to that much hot working.

Again, though, that piece is steel. It's much stronger than wrought iron. The forging will make it a bit stronger, but casting steel is an iffy proposition, anyway.

--
Ed Huntress


Martin

On 12/27/2016 12:34 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus15685 wrote:
I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer

I saw that yesterday, almost shared the link as well. It's a real ugly
operation until they machine the thing down. You can see calipers at one
point and the rest of the measuring seems to be with some sort of rod with
markings of some sort. My question is how consistent are those flanges
from the start of the shift to the end, or on a rainy day when they're
slipping in mud or anything like that.





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Ignoramus22750 wrote:
On 2016-12-27, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus15685 wrote:
I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer


I saw that yesterday, almost shared the link as well. It's a real ugly
operation until they machine the thing down. You can see calipers at one
point and the rest of the measuring seems to be with some sort of rod with
markings of some sort. My question is how consistent are those flanges
from the start of the shift to the end, or on a rainy day when they're
slipping in mud or anything like that.


It looks like they know what they are doing, removing last 1/2 inch or
so


There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about cottage
type industry.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's not
really clear.
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Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus15685 wrote:

I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop
hammer

Geez, what a dangerous occupation. A few of them were at least wearing face
shields, but if anything went wrong, somebody could be killed for sure!
Guys holding several TONS of yellow-hot steel with tongs from just a few
FEET away, while that drop hammer just wails away on the piece.

Sheesh, I can only imagine how long those guys work at this before somebody
gets hurt BADLY. Probably just weeks before they have to reset the "days
since last accident" clock back to zero.

Jon

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On 28/12/16 19:44, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:43:58 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus22750 wrote:
On 2016-12-28, Martin Eastburn wrote:
To hot for mud :-)

I suspect the rods were marked - hole smaller than this - and flange .....

The company doesn't want to pound out another or 50% for mistakes.

Wrought iron not pouring. And the base must be a beast into the ground!
Not much bounce in the ground near by or anywhere.

I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.

But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i

That piece is not iron. It's steel. Of course, if you're a nitpicker, steel is a type of iron. d8-) Big pieces of wrought iron are very rare and have been for around a century.

Cast iron is strong in compression -- stronger than forged (wrought) iron. But, except for ductile iron and malleable, more or less, it's weaker in tension and it's very brittle. You would not open-die forge any ductile or malleable iron to the degree of this example. It's not up to that much hot working.

Again, though, that piece is steel. It's much stronger than wrought iron. The forging will make it a bit stronger, but casting steel is an iffy proposition, anyway.

Why is casting steel an iffy proposition? it's done all the time. My
neighbour was building a miniature US steam locomotive and that
apparently had a one piece cast steel frame which from memory would have
been in full size some 60' to 80' long.
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On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 4:21:48 PM UTC-5, David Billington wrote:
On 28/12/16 19:44, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:43:58 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus22750 wrote:
On 2016-12-28, Martin Eastburn wrote:
To hot for mud :-)

I suspect the rods were marked - hole smaller than this - and flange ......

The company doesn't want to pound out another or 50% for mistakes.

Wrought iron not pouring. And the base must be a beast into the ground!
Not much bounce in the ground near by or anywhere.

I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.
But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i

That piece is not iron. It's steel. Of course, if you're a nitpicker, steel is a type of iron. d8-) Big pieces of wrought iron are very rare and have been for around a century.

Cast iron is strong in compression -- stronger than forged (wrought) iron. But, except for ductile iron and malleable, more or less, it's weaker in tension and it's very brittle. You would not open-die forge any ductile or malleable iron to the degree of this example. It's not up to that much hot working.

Again, though, that piece is steel. It's much stronger than wrought iron. The forging will make it a bit stronger, but casting steel is an iffy proposition, anyway.

Why is casting steel an iffy proposition? it's done all the time. My
neighbour was building a miniature US steam locomotive and that
apparently had a one piece cast steel frame which from memory would have
been in full size some 60' to 80' long.


Higher casting temperatures and fairly low fluidity are limiting factors for steel castings. There are other issues that sometimes cause problems, such as shrinkage where section thicknesses change.

A piece like the one in the video clearly is a cutoff section of steel off of the first or second rolling stand; a custom order, probably, because it probably couldn't be made in a modern continuous-casting operation. It's too thick.

--
Ed Huntress


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On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 07:52:36 -0600, Ignoramus15685
wrote:

I cannot stop watching this video, nothing short of amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r41dcYUvNLk

Clearly very smart people, forging with just forklifts and a huge drop hammer


And I thought my previous job sucked! Someone else mentioned that
just some of them were wearing face shields, I noticed a lack of
hearing protection. No 'muffs' and likely none at all. Also noticed
the lucky lift driver getting misted with a hose a few times. Need
to watch it again and see what else I missed.
--
William
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On 12/28/2016 2:01 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
....

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about cottage
type industry.


I not call that "cottage"; looks like pretty sizable operation and
clearly this is far from the first of these this crew has made.

I'd guess there's a final set of more-or-less conventional machining
operations undertaken before final use...

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's not
really clear.


Didn't try to estimate thickness nor stresses, but I'd also bet the
stress levels are pretty minimal as compared to actual yield values.
IOW, there's likely quite a lot of margin for the end use.

Being as it's obvious they've been turning these out in large numbers by
the practiced movements, if they weren't up to snuff in application
initially, they certainly are by this point simply by experience if
nothing else...
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If you saw the machine bay - there were a number of these.

I figure they are part of a bearing surface for Tree works or ground works.

Martin

On 12/28/2016 3:37 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 4:21:48 PM UTC-5, David Billington wrote:
On 28/12/16 19:44,
wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:43:58 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus22750 wrote:
On 2016-12-28, Martin Eastburn wrote:
To hot for mud :-)

I suspect the rods were marked - hole smaller than this - and flange .....

The company doesn't want to pound out another or 50% for mistakes.

Wrought iron not pouring. And the base must be a beast into the ground!
Not much bounce in the ground near by or anywhere.

I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.
But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i
That piece is not iron. It's steel. Of course, if you're a nitpicker, steel is a type of iron. d8-) Big pieces of wrought iron are very rare and have been for around a century.

Cast iron is strong in compression -- stronger than forged (wrought) iron. But, except for ductile iron and malleable, more or less, it's weaker in tension and it's very brittle. You would not open-die forge any ductile or malleable iron to the degree of this example. It's not up to that much hot working.

Again, though, that piece is steel. It's much stronger than wrought iron. The forging will make it a bit stronger, but casting steel is an iffy proposition, anyway.

Why is casting steel an iffy proposition? it's done all the time. My
neighbour was building a miniature US steam locomotive and that
apparently had a one piece cast steel frame which from memory would have
been in full size some 60' to 80' long.


Higher casting temperatures and fairly low fluidity are limiting factors for steel castings. There are other issues that sometimes cause problems, such as shrinkage where section thicknesses change.

A piece like the one in the video clearly is a cutoff section of steel off of the first or second rolling stand; a custom order, probably, because it probably couldn't be made in a modern continuous-casting operation. It's too thick.

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On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:43:47 PM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote:
If you saw the machine bay - there were a number of these.

I figure they are part of a bearing surface for Tree works or ground works.

Martin


What's a Tree works?

--
Ed Huntress



On 12/28/2016 3:37 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 4:21:48 PM UTC-5, David Billington wrote:
On 28/12/16 19:44,
wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:43:58 AM UTC-5, Ignoramus22750 wrote:
On 2016-12-28, Martin Eastburn wrote:
To hot for mud :-)

I suspect the rods were marked - hole smaller than this - and flange .....

The company doesn't want to pound out another or 50% for mistakes.

Wrought iron not pouring. And the base must be a beast into the ground!
Not much bounce in the ground near by or anywhere.

I think "we" went into pouring the form and then machine out the final.
But cast is not as strong as forged, no?

i
That piece is not iron. It's steel. Of course, if you're a nitpicker, steel is a type of iron. d8-) Big pieces of wrought iron are very rare and have been for around a century.

Cast iron is strong in compression -- stronger than forged (wrought) iron. But, except for ductile iron and malleable, more or less, it's weaker in tension and it's very brittle. You would not open-die forge any ductile or malleable iron to the degree of this example. It's not up to that much hot working.

Again, though, that piece is steel. It's much stronger than wrought iron. The forging will make it a bit stronger, but casting steel is an iffy proposition, anyway.

Why is casting steel an iffy proposition? it's done all the time. My
neighbour was building a miniature US steam locomotive and that
apparently had a one piece cast steel frame which from memory would have
been in full size some 60' to 80' long.


Higher casting temperatures and fairly low fluidity are limiting factors for steel castings. There are other issues that sometimes cause problems, such as shrinkage where section thicknesses change.

A piece like the one in the video clearly is a cutoff section of steel off of the first or second rolling stand; a custom order, probably, because it probably couldn't be made in a modern continuous-casting operation. It's too thick.


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"dpb" wrote in message
news
On 12/28/2016 2:01 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
...

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about
cottage
type industry.


I not call that "cottage"; looks like pretty sizable operation and
clearly this is far from the first of these this crew has made.

I'd guess there's a final set of more-or-less conventional machining
operations undertaken before final use...
I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt.
It's not
really clear.


Didn't try to estimate thickness nor stresses, but I'd also bet the
stress levels are pretty minimal as compared to actual yield values.
IOW, there's likely quite a lot of margin for the end use.

Being as it's obvious they've been turning these out in large
numbers by the practiced movements, if they weren't up to snuff in
application initially, they certainly are by this point simply by
experience if nothing else...


After examining links of this chain I'm glad I wasn't in the crew that
hand-forged it: Splitting firewood is enough for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_River_Chain

http://www.albanyinstitute.org/detai...son-river.html

The early paddle-wheel steamboats required huge forged crankshafts
that strained the limits of blacksmithing.
http://www.makingthemodernworld.org....0-1880/IC.047/

Forging a small one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL4jqvGwrqs

-jsw





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On 12/29/2016 6:18 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
news

....

Being as it's obvious they've been turning these out in large
numbers by the practiced movements, ...


After examining links of this chain I'm glad I wasn't in the crew that
hand-forged it: Splitting firewood is enough for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_River_Chain

http://www.albanyinstitute.org/detai...son-river.html

....



Indeed, the early ingenuity and diligence tend to amaze us as we're so
used to everything being manipulated by other than what to us now seems
"brute force"...

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On 12/29/2016 8:38 AM, dpb wrote:
....

After examining links of this chain I'm glad I wasn't in the crew that
hand-forged it: Splitting firewood is enough for me.


Actually, on further thought, perhaps that would've been easier than the
installation???
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I forgot - they cut down the trees up north.

They have been replanting forests here for 100 years.

Trees are taller than power poles. They are trimmed to be the 60' to
80' bark trimmed and coated in several chemicals.

Tree works use large machinery that are crane like with saws on the
bottom and grippers that grab the base of the tree saw slice it off and
then lean it over and spit it out with rollers while trimming the limbs
off. Nice thing about Pine and hybrid pine - grow tall and straight.

Massive tree industry of machines that need to rotate in near 180
degrees and back toting tons in the process and back to work.

Like the ground work machines - dredgers and dozers... scrapers, and all
- they have tree counterparts.

John Deer has two divisions of Tree Work machines. Then there is other
companies as well. Used world wide.

Martin

On 12/28/2016 9:35 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:43:47 PM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote:
If you saw the machine bay - there were a number of these.

I figure they are part of a bearing surface for Tree works or ground works.

Martin


What's a Tree works?

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On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 11:01:32 PM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote:
I forgot - they cut down the trees up north.


Aha.


They have been replanting forests here for 100 years.

Trees are taller than power poles. They are trimmed to be the 60' to
80' bark trimmed and coated in several chemicals.

Tree works use large machinery that are crane like with saws on the
bottom and grippers that grab the base of the tree saw slice it off and
then lean it over and spit it out with rollers while trimming the limbs
off. Nice thing about Pine and hybrid pine - grow tall and straight.


I've seen some videos of that. It's one hell of an example of automated harvesting.


Massive tree industry of machines that need to rotate in near 180
degrees and back toting tons in the process and back to work.

Like the ground work machines - dredgers and dozers... scrapers, and all
- they have tree counterparts.

John Deer has two divisions of Tree Work machines. Then there is other
companies as well. Used world wide.

Martin

On 12/28/2016 9:35 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:43:47 PM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote:
If you saw the machine bay - there were a number of these.

I figure they are part of a bearing surface for Tree works or ground works.

Martin


What's a Tree works?


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On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 11:46:35 AM UTC-5, del gato wrote:
On 12/30/2016 12:28 AM, wrote:
they cut down the trees up north.

Aha.

As I posted, old man:


Wrong thread, Raton. Your hands must be shaking.

--
Ed Huntress


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Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about cottage
type industry.


Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's not
really clear.


Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posts: 1,910
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about cottage
type industry.


Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's not
really clear.


Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.


That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.
  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 556
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about cottage
type industry.


Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's not
really clear.


Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.


That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.


If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15 feet long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't see much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just look at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the same, but the rotation of the work was automated.

--
Ed Huntress
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Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1,910
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.


That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.


If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15 feet long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't see much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just look at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the same, but the rotation of the work was automated.


So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the times.

Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?
  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 556
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.


If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15 feet long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't see much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just look at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the same, but the rotation of the work was automated.


So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the times.


That's the state of large open-die forging operations all over the world. The only advance is in robotic, or otherwise automated, work rotation and positioning.


Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?


It was in downtown Chicago -- somewhere on the south side. I forget the company name but it was a major supplier of tool steels. The ingot I described was, IIRC, D2 steel.

As for mud huts -- not quite, but you wouldn't want to live there.

--
Ed Huntress



  #31   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 450
Default Amazing Chinese forging video


wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader
wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about
cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the
flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set
hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered
stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's
not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and
cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.


If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15 feet
long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't see
much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer
anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just look
at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the same,
but the rotation of the work was automated.


So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the times.


That's the state of large open-die forging operations all over the world.
The only advance is in robotic, or otherwise automated, work rotation and
positioning.


Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?


It was in downtown Chicago -- somewhere on the south side. I forget the
company name but it was a major supplier of tool steels. The ingot I
described was, IIRC, D2 steel.

As for mud huts -- not quite, but you wouldn't want to live there.

--
Ed Huntress

Probably Anderson-Shumaker. They're still down there.
Up until a few years ago They were still doing that sort of stuff at Finkl's
north side plant.
When I was jonesing for a hit of heavy industry, I would go up there and
watch em through the open doors.

They would stop traffic while the "Finklemobile" carted a glowing billet the
size of a cargo van across the street to be rough forged into some giant
crankshaft.

Damn, I miss it.

Paul K. Dickman


  #32   Report Post  
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Posts: 556
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:33:56 AM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader
wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions about
cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the
flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set
hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered
stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100 PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt. It's
not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and
cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.

If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15 feet
long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't see
much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer
anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just look
at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the same,
but the rotation of the work was automated.


So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the times.


That's the state of large open-die forging operations all over the world.
The only advance is in robotic, or otherwise automated, work rotation and
positioning.


Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?


It was in downtown Chicago -- somewhere on the south side. I forget the
company name but it was a major supplier of tool steels. The ingot I
described was, IIRC, D2 steel.

As for mud huts -- not quite, but you wouldn't want to live there.

--
Ed Huntress

Probably Anderson-Shumaker. They're still down there.
Up until a few years ago They were still doing that sort of stuff at Finkl's
north side plant.
When I was jonesing for a hit of heavy industry, I would go up there and
watch em through the open doors.

They would stop traffic while the "Finklemobile" carted a glowing billet the
size of a cargo van across the street to be rough forged into some giant
crankshaft.

Damn, I miss it.

Paul K. Dickman


Yes! Actually, my fading memory ran the two of them together. I've been to both mills, but the forging of that big tool steel ingot was at Finkl.

--
Ed Huntress
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Posts: 450
Default Amazing Chinese forging video


wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:33:56 AM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader
wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but
if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all
be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions
about
cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the
flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set
hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip,
never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered
stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on
the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100
PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt.
It's
not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just
mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's
not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here
that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled
in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and
cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited
video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.

If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15
feet
long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't
see
much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer
anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just
look
at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the
same,
but the rotation of the work was automated.

So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the
times.


That's the state of large open-die forging operations all over the world.
The only advance is in robotic, or otherwise automated, work rotation and
positioning.


Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?


It was in downtown Chicago -- somewhere on the south side. I forget the
company name but it was a major supplier of tool steels. The ingot I
described was, IIRC, D2 steel.

As for mud huts -- not quite, but you wouldn't want to live there.

--
Ed Huntress

Probably Anderson-Shumaker. They're still down there.
Up until a few years ago They were still doing that sort of stuff at
Finkl's
north side plant.
When I was jonesing for a hit of heavy industry, I would go up there and
watch em through the open doors.

They would stop traffic while the "Finklemobile" carted a glowing billet
the
size of a cargo van across the street to be rough forged into some giant
crankshaft.

Damn, I miss it.

Paul K. Dickman


Yes! Actually, my fading memory ran the two of them together. I've been to
both mills, but the forging of that big tool steel ingot was at Finkl.

--
Ed Huntress


Finkl closed up their northside plant and moved to the southside. The whole
site has been bulldozed flat and sold to a developer.

Back in the late 80's, they turned the area into a "Planned Manufacturing
District" to protect it from residential encroachment, but no sooner did
they do that, than they started cutting out chunks for retail shopping
centers.

For nearly thirty years they have been chomping at the bit to slap housing
on that area, looks like they'll finally get their wish.

Paul K. Dickman


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Default Amazing Chinese forging video


"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
news


Finkl closed up their northside plant and moved to the southside. The
whole site has been bulldozed flat and sold to a developer.

Back in the late 80's, they turned the area into a "Planned Manufacturing
District" to protect it from residential encroachment, but no sooner did
they do that, than they started cutting out chunks for retail shopping
centers.

For nearly thirty years they have been chomping at the bit to slap housing
on that area, looks like they'll finally get their wish.

Paul K. Dickman


WGN news had a report about finkl, seems thier south side neighbors
don't like them. The people near the plant are bitching about noise,
smells, vibration and broken promises.

Best Regards
Tom.



  #35   Report Post  
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Posts: 556
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 1:59:24 PM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:33:56 AM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader
wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but
if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all
be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions
about
cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the
flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set
hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip,
never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered
stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on
the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100
PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt..
It's
not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just
mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's
not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here
that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled
in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and
cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited
video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.



  #36   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,013
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

I hope we don't find out in 30 years that this is a poison hole
that pollute the ground with chemicals and heavy metals......

Martin

On 1/2/2017 12:58 PM, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:33:56 AM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader
wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort, but
if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even all
be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions
about
cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the
flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set
hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip,
never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered
stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on
the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100
PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt.
It's
not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just
mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's
not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here
that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled
in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and
cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited
video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.

If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15
feet
long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't
see
much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer
anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just
look
at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the
same,
but the rotation of the work was automated.

So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the
times.

That's the state of large open-die forging operations all over the world.
The only advance is in robotic, or otherwise automated, work rotation and
positioning.


Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?

It was in downtown Chicago -- somewhere on the south side. I forget the
company name but it was a major supplier of tool steels. The ingot I
described was, IIRC, D2 steel.

As for mud huts -- not quite, but you wouldn't want to live there.

--
Ed Huntress

Probably Anderson-Shumaker. They're still down there.
Up until a few years ago They were still doing that sort of stuff at
Finkl's
north side plant.
When I was jonesing for a hit of heavy industry, I would go up there and
watch em through the open doors.

They would stop traffic while the "Finklemobile" carted a glowing billet
the
size of a cargo van across the street to be rough forged into some giant
crankshaft.

Damn, I miss it.

Paul K. Dickman


Yes! Actually, my fading memory ran the two of them together. I've been to
both mills, but the forging of that big tool steel ingot was at Finkl.

--
Ed Huntress


Finkl closed up their northside plant and moved to the southside. The whole
site has been bulldozed flat and sold to a developer.

Back in the late 80's, they turned the area into a "Planned Manufacturing
District" to protect it from residential encroachment, but no sooner did
they do that, than they started cutting out chunks for retail shopping
centers.

For nearly thirty years they have been chomping at the bit to slap housing
on that area, looks like they'll finally get their wish.

Paul K. Dickman


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Default Amazing Chinese forging video

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
news

...
They would stop traffic while the "Finklemobile" carted a glowing
billet the size of a cargo van across the street to be rough forged
into some giant crankshaft.

Damn, I miss it.

Paul K. Dickman


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/53854...-h/53854-h.htm

-jsw


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Default Amazing Chinese forging video


wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 1:59:24 PM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:33:56 AM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader
wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort,
but
if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even
all
be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions
about
cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the
flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set
hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip,
never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots
of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered
stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on
the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100
PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be
a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper
heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt.
It's
not
really clear.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just
mild --
low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's
not
burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here
that
is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made
of
kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.

That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being
controlled
in
that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video
and
cool
on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited
video.

Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking
operation.

If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15
feet
long and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't
see
much difference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't
hammer
anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just
look
at the color of the slag as it peels off.

I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the
same,
but the rotation of the work was automated.

So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the
times.

That's the state of large open-die forging operations all over the
world.
The only advance is in robotic, or otherwise automated, work rotation
and
positioning.


Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?

It was in downtown Chicago -- somewhere on the south side. I forget the
company name but it was a major supplier of tool steels. The ingot I
described was, IIRC, D2 steel.

As for mud huts -- not quite, but you wouldn't want to live there.

--
Ed Huntress

Probably Anderson-Shumaker. They're still down there.
Up until a few years ago They were still doing that sort of stuff at
Finkl's
north side plant.
When I was jonesing for a hit of heavy industry, I would go up there
and
watch em through the open doors.

They would stop traffic while the "Finklemobile" carted a glowing
billet
the
size of a cargo van across the street to be rough forged into some
giant
crankshaft.

Damn, I miss it.

Paul K. Dickman


Yes! Actually, my fading memory ran the two of them together. I've been
to
both mills, but the forging of that big tool steel ingot was at Finkl.

--
Ed Huntress


Finkl closed up their northside plant and moved to the southside. The
whole
site has been bulldozed flat and sold to a developer.

Back in the late 80's, they turned the area into a "Planned Manufacturing
District" to protect it from residential encroachment, but no sooner did
they do that, than they started cutting out chunks for retail shopping
centers.

For nearly thirty years they have been chomping at the bit to slap housing
on that area, looks like they'll finally get their wish.

Paul K. Dickman


Huh. I don't remember the area. I was there on a 4-day press junket put on
by the American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI), and they bused us all
around Illinois and Indiana, from the coal mines in the south to the big
primary steel mills on the Lake Michigan shore.

The forging operation at Finkl was impressive as hell. I was writing about
remelting for making the highest-quality steel at the time (electroslag and
vacuum-arc remelting), so that's where I spent most of my time. But the big
forging operation was a real eye-catcher.

The other eye-catcher was quenching a heat of coke. Did you ever see that
done? It blackened the sky for miles. Not long after, doing it without
filters was outlawed in the US and most of Europe. People who live downwind
of those operations in China and India die at an early age.

--
Ed Huntress

If you were there in the 70's, it was still pretty much a wasteland.
Imagine Park Slope and Williamsburg were closer together and the border was
a Brooklyn navy yard consisting of a river flanked by 300 acres of
scrapyards, low-rise factories and shopping centers.
That'll give you an idea of what has had developers drooling.

As for the coke, I did particulate testing at Granite City Steel for a
couple of weeks in the 70's. Frankly, I was so gobsmacked by the smelting
operation that I don't remember what the coking looked like.

Paul K. Dickman


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Posts: 556
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:02:34 PM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 1:59:24 PM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:33:56 AM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader
wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:

Cydrome Leader writes:

There's no question they've made a huge flange of some sort,
but
if
I
ordered 100 of them, would they vary at all? Would they even
all
be
made
of the same type of steel etc. That's where I have questions
about
cottage
type industry.

Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the
flange.
When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set
hammer --
the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip,
never
goes too far and crushes the lip.

We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots
of
practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered
stroke.
The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on
the
remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.

Cool stuff, great teamwork.

I think it was mentioned that's a flange for a 48" pipe. At 100
PSI
that's
90 tons of force trying to tear that thing apart. It has to be
a
sound
part and not just "close enough". Forgings still need proper
heat
treatment, and from that video maybe they just bury it in dirt.

  #40   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1,910
Default Amazing Chinese forging video

Howard Beal wrote:

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
news


Finkl closed up their northside plant and moved to the southside. The
whole site has been bulldozed flat and sold to a developer.

Back in the late 80's, they turned the area into a "Planned Manufacturing
District" to protect it from residential encroachment, but no sooner did
they do that, than they started cutting out chunks for retail shopping
centers.

For nearly thirty years they have been chomping at the bit to slap housing
on that area, looks like they'll finally get their wish.

Paul K. Dickman


WGN news had a report about finkl, seems thier south side neighbors
don't like them. The people near the plant are bitching about noise,
smells, vibration and broken promises.


It's a ****ing steel mill that makes huge forgings. Not sure what they
were expecting.

I'm glad they're still around though.
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