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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 15:14:40 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
news
Indeed. Now tell me how oil is going to carry that charge...


Um... you seemed to be saying in your initial post that EDM would somehow
give a 'clue' as to how to do this.

_I_ was saying that EDM only proves it WON'T work.

Lloyd


Bingo!!

Sorry if you got my intent wrong.

Gunner
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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Sorry if you got my intent wrong.


No harm, no foul, Gunner! I figured we were somehow crossing purposes.

What I _didn't_ figure is that you wouldn't know about the dielectric
properties of EDM oil!

Lloyd
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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 15:14:40 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
news
Indeed. Now tell me how oil is going to carry that charge...


Um... you seemed to be saying in your initial post that EDM would
somehow
give a 'clue' as to how to do this.

_I_ was saying that EDM only proves it WON'T work.

Lloyd


Bingo!!

Sorry if you got my intent wrong.

Gunner


http://physics.stackexchange.com/que...r-high-voltage

-jsw


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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:17:10 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Sorry if you got my intent wrong.


No harm, no foul, Gunner! I figured we were somehow crossing purposes.

What I _didn't_ figure is that you wouldn't know about the dielectric
properties of EDM oil!

Lloyd


Which ones are you referring to?

http://www.cimindustry.com/article/m...our-edm-fluidr

Notice the part about :high current spark"?

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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:


Which ones are you referring to?


You mis-read me again. It must be me.

This: "What I _didn't_ figure is that you wouldn't know about the
dielectric properties of EDM oil!",

Means that I _did_ figure you _did_ know about it. Double-negative, and
all that stuff.

Lloyd


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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:15:51 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Saturday, November 28, 2015 at 6:07:17 AM UTC-8, Christopher Tidy wrote:
There are oil-miscible semiconductors, you could flood a bit of your oil tubing with
UV light and create photoconduction...


So you mean a semiconducting liquid which can be mixed with oil? Do you have any product names for these semiconductors? If it worked, it could create a nice show.


Tweak, Cramolin blue/Caig DeOxit, Stabilant-22A and -22L, and US patent #4696832
are all variants on this theme. End-user products have lots of other ingredients, and some
are soap/alcohol/grease mixtures (used to be chlorinated hydrocarbons).


Do a Google search for "oildag". I used Aquadag to make a conductive
coat on fused quartz. Was used inside a Ion Chamber that flew in the
early days of the space program.
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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

On 11/28/2015 6:49 AM, amdx wrote:
On 11/27/2015 9:00 AM, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

This is a question for people with electrical knowledge, especially in the
field of electrostatics. It's also spontaneous. I'm not sure if I'm going to
build anything yet.


This may be of interest to some folks. Back in the 60's there was an electronic
device for creating an echo/reverb effect for electric guitars and such.

It could replace tape recording devices for a delay effect, at least to some
extent. It was generally referred to as an oilcan echo/reverb


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber

Oil-can delay method

An alternative echo system was the so-called "oil-can delay" method, which uses
electrostatic rather than electromagnetic recording.[1]

Invented by Ray Lubow, the "oil-can" method uses a rotating disc made of
anodized aluminium, the surface of which is coated with a suspension of carbon
particles. An AC signal is sent to a conductive neoprene "wiper", which
transfers the high impedance charge to the disc. As the particles pass by the
wiper, they act as thousands of tiny capacitors, holding a small part of the
charge. A second wiper reads this representation of the signal, and sends it on
to a voltage amplifier, where it is mixed with the original source. To protect
the charge held in each capacitor and to lubricate the entire assembly, the disc
runs inside a sealed can with enough of a special oil (Union Carbide UCON lb65)
to assure that an even coating is applied as it spins.

The effect resembles an echo, but the whimsical nature of the storage medium
causes variations in the sound that can be heard as a vibrato effect. Some early
models featured control circuitry designed to feed the output of the read wiper
to the write head, causing a reverberant effect as well.

Many different companies marketed these devices under various names. Fender sold
the Dimension IV, the Variable Delay, the Echo-Reverb I, II, and III, and
included an oil can in their Special Effects box. Gibson sold the GA-4RE from
1965-7. Ray Lubow himself sold many different versions under the Tel-Ray/Morley
brand, starting out in the early sixties with the Ad-n-echo, and eventually
producing the Echo-ver-brato, the Electrostatic Delay Line, and many others into
the eighties.



http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folder...can_delays.htm

The Technology of Oil Can Delays
Updated 7/1/02

Copyright 1999-2002 R.G. Keen. All Rights Reserved.

Before digital delays, before analog bucket brigade delays, there was an effects
technology that subbed in for tape delays that was portable and relatively easy
to use for floor mounted items. This was the rotating oil can delay, and here's
how it works.

Everyone is familiar with magnetic storage - you move a substrate containing
magnetizable particles past a recording head that has an alternating magnetic
field in it. The magnetic field polarizes the magnetic direction of the
particles on the substrate and an "image" of the magnetic field alternations is
thereby stored in the particles. Reading is the reverse - you run the substrate
past a pickup head with many turns of hair-thin wire and the magnetic field in
the particles causes a voltage to be induced in the coil of wire, reading the
info that was recorded.

There are usually "dual" operations for all magnetic and electronic operations,
interchanging electric field for magnetic field and capacitors for inductors.
This is no exception. If you put charge into a capacitor, it holds the resulting
voltage, a crude form of storage. If you have many incredibly tiny capacitors,
you can start making a fairly good representation of a varying voltage. This is
in fact the way bucket brigade delay chips work.

There is another way to do electrical field storage. Insulating materials can be
given an electric charge, as we all know. Just wear rubber soled shoes and walk
across pile carpeting on a dry winter day, then touch a doorknob. The motion of
the shoes across the carpet stored a charge on the shoes (and then you) that was
expressed visibly and audibly when you touched the doorknob.

In a similar way, if we have a fine brush of conductive wires, and arrange an
insulating belt to be moved past, just touching the brush, we can put a large AC
voltage on the brush and some of the electric field will be captured on the
surface of the belt. Since the belt is an insulator, the charge can't go
anywhere, so the electrical charge forms a replica of the voltage on the brush.
Each tiny area of insulating surface is in fact acting like a micro-miniature
capacitor, storing the value of the voltage from the brush at the instant the
brush moved away from it, just like the magnetic particles in a tape machine
store a replica of the magnetic field from the record head.

The tiny voltage-carrying capacitors are carried off as the insulating belt
moves. The voltage would eventually leak off into the air if we let it. We can
instead choose to keep it in a dry environment for a while, and "read" it later
with a very high impedance amplifier. It turns out that vacuum tubes are ideal
for both the writing (at high voltage) and reading (very high impedance) of such
capacitive storage, and indeed the first oil can delays were tube based. Later
as semiconductor technology got better, transistor and FET read and write
amplifiers were made for the oil can delays.

So why the oil? What's that do? Remember that business about leaking into the
air? The oil provides a sealable insulating layer over the insulating belt so
the charge is trapped inside and has a hard time leaking into the air. The
brushes reach right through it to put in/take out charge, and the voltage is
protected from leaking away.

The oil is the center of a controversy - the original oil is reputed to be a
hazardous material, carinogenic, etc. Is it? Maybe. The best insulating oils
available at the time the oil can delays were designed were transformer
insulating/cooling oils. These were definitely polychlorinated biphenyl based -
the same "PCB's" that are now banned from all use as containing deadly dioxins.
The only question is whether the oil can delay makers used that stuff or
something else entirely.

If you're restoring an oil can delay that is now dry, what oil do you use? I've
heard of using mineral oil from a pharmacy, Singer brand sewing machine oil,
even 20 weight motor oil, all said to work to some degree. However, the reports
have been decidedly mixed.

I recently stumbled onto the Tel-Ray page
(http://www.geocities.com/tel_ray/home.html) where some of my intuitions on oil
can delays were confirmed, and where I found a reference to the original patents
on the technology. You can look them up at the US patent office web site if
you're interested. Look for US Patents 2892898 and 3072543. From what I read,
we might be able to make new, functioning oil cans - they don't look like rocket
science ( as old-hat as rocket science seems now, even ).

The principals in the Tel-Ray page have now confirmed some of my guesses, and
have graciously extended the info a great deal. From the patents, it is clear
that the original oil can delays were just as I guessed, capacitive storage
devices. However, the second and third patents delve further into the
lubricating medium. It seems that by carefully dinking with the
lubricating/insulating oil and doping it with various things to get conducting
particles spread out in the oil, you can make for a higher signal level stored
in the rotating capacitor, and hence better signal recovery, lower noise, and
all-round better performance.

Zak Izbinsky, Richard Bills and Jamie Ray dug out the detailed info, as
displayed at the Tel-Ray site. The "real stuff" replacement oil for the oilcan
effects is Union Carbide "Ucon" LB-65 oil. It is not carcinogenic, and not PCB oil.

This is the exact same substance as was originally used by Tel-Ray in the 60's
as specified on the third patent. It is still available through Union
Carbide/DOW and is reputed to be only $200 a gallon. ... GAK!!!

However, the guys at Tel-Ray have helped out. They bought a supply and will
parcel out just enough for your oil can for about $25. Check them out.

The second method

I've also come across a second method for "oil can" delays. I put the quotes in
because it doesn't use any oil. I got a Vox Echo-Reverb model V807 recently. It
had a typical oil can delay... until I looked further. There's no oil, but not
only that, it looks like there never was any. Multiple spring contacts are held
against a rotating disc in a machined aluminum housing with a counterbalancing
spring mechanism to keep them all just touching. It looks like this one is
intended to get around the Tel-Ray patents. I'll know more when I get the bugs
fixed and get it running.


R.G.





































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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

This may be of interest to some folks. Back in the 60's there was an electronic
device for creating an echo/reverb effect for electric guitars and such.

It could replace tape recording devices for a delay effect, at least to some
extent. It was generally referred to as an oilcan echo/reverb


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber

Oil-can delay method

An alternative echo system was the so-called "oil-can delay" method, which uses
electrostatic rather than electromagnetic recording.[1]

Invented by Ray Lubow, the "oil-can" method uses a rotating disc made of
anodized aluminium, the surface of which is coated with a suspension of carbon
particles. An AC signal is sent to a conductive neoprene "wiper", which
transfers the high impedance charge to the disc. As the particles pass by the
wiper, they act as thousands of tiny capacitors, holding a small part of the
charge. A second wiper reads this representation of the signal, and sends it on
to a voltage amplifier, where it is mixed with the original source. To protect
the charge held in each capacitor and to lubricate the entire assembly, the disc
runs inside a sealed can with enough of a special oil (Union Carbide UCON lb65)
to assure that an even coating is applied as it spins.

The effect resembles an echo, but the whimsical nature of the storage medium
causes variations in the sound that can be heard as a vibrato effect. Some early
models featured control circuitry designed to feed the output of the read wiper
to the write head, causing a reverberant effect as well.

Many different companies marketed these devices under various names. Fender sold
the Dimension IV, the Variable Delay, the Echo-Reverb I, II, and III, and
included an oil can in their Special Effects box. Gibson sold the GA-4RE from
1965-7. Ray Lubow himself sold many different versions under the Tel-Ray/Morley
brand, starting out in the early sixties with the Ad-n-echo, and eventually
producing the Echo-ver-brato, the Electrostatic Delay Line, and many others into
the eighties.



http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folder...can_delays.htm

The Technology of Oil Can Delays
Updated 7/1/02

Copyright 1999-2002 R.G. Keen. All Rights Reserved.

Before digital delays, before analog bucket brigade delays, there was an effects
technology that subbed in for tape delays that was portable and relatively easy
to use for floor mounted items. This was the rotating oil can delay, and here's
how it works.

Everyone is familiar with magnetic storage - you move a substrate containing
magnetizable particles past a recording head that has an alternating magnetic
field in it. The magnetic field polarizes the magnetic direction of the
particles on the substrate and an "image" of the magnetic field alternations is
thereby stored in the particles. Reading is the reverse - you run the substrate
past a pickup head with many turns of hair-thin wire and the magnetic field in
the particles causes a voltage to be induced in the coil of wire, reading the
info that was recorded.

There are usually "dual" operations for all magnetic and electronic operations,
interchanging electric field for magnetic field and capacitors for inductors.
This is no exception. If you put charge into a capacitor, it holds the resulting
voltage, a crude form of storage. If you have many incredibly tiny capacitors,
you can start making a fairly good representation of a varying voltage. This is
in fact the way bucket brigade delay chips work.

There is another way to do electrical field storage. Insulating materials can be
given an electric charge, as we all know. Just wear rubber soled shoes and walk
across pile carpeting on a dry winter day, then touch a doorknob. The motion of
the shoes across the carpet stored a charge on the shoes (and then you) that was
expressed visibly and audibly when you touched the doorknob.

In a similar way, if we have a fine brush of conductive wires, and arrange an
insulating belt to be moved past, just touching the brush, we can put a large AC
voltage on the brush and some of the electric field will be captured on the
surface of the belt. Since the belt is an insulator, the charge can't go
anywhere, so the electrical charge forms a replica of the voltage on the brush.
Each tiny area of insulating surface is in fact acting like a micro-miniature
capacitor, storing the value of the voltage from the brush at the instant the
brush moved away from it, just like the magnetic particles in a tape machine
store a replica of the magnetic field from the record head.

The tiny voltage-carrying capacitors are carried off as the insulating belt
moves. The voltage would eventually leak off into the air if we let it. We can
instead choose to keep it in a dry environment for a while, and "read" it later
with a very high impedance amplifier. It turns out that vacuum tubes are ideal
for both the writing (at high voltage) and reading (very high impedance) of such
capacitive storage, and indeed the first oil can delays were tube based. Later
as semiconductor technology got better, transistor and FET read and write
amplifiers were made for the oil can delays.

So why the oil? What's that do? Remember that business about leaking into the
air? The oil provides a sealable insulating layer over the insulating belt so
the charge is trapped inside and has a hard time leaking into the air. The
brushes reach right through it to put in/take out charge, and the voltage is
protected from leaking away.

The oil is the center of a controversy - the original oil is reputed to be a
hazardous material, carinogenic, etc. Is it? Maybe. The best insulating oils
available at the time the oil can delays were designed were transformer
insulating/cooling oils. These were definitely polychlorinated biphenyl based -
the same "PCB's" that are now banned from all use as containing deadly dioxins.
The only question is whether the oil can delay makers used that stuff or
something else entirely.

If you're restoring an oil can delay that is now dry, what oil do you use? I've
heard of using mineral oil from a pharmacy, Singer brand sewing machine oil,
even 20 weight motor oil, all said to work to some degree. However, the reports
have been decidedly mixed.

I recently stumbled onto the Tel-Ray page
(http://www.geocities.com/tel_ray/home.html) where some of my intuitions on oil
can delays were confirmed, and where I found a reference to the original patents
on the technology. You can look them up at the US patent office web site if
you're interested. Look for US Patents 2892898 and 3072543. From what I read,
we might be able to make new, functioning oil cans - they don't look like rocket
science ( as old-hat as rocket science seems now, even ).

The principals in the Tel-Ray page have now confirmed some of my guesses, and
have graciously extended the info a great deal. From the patents, it is clear
that the original oil can delays were just as I guessed, capacitive storage
devices. However, the second and third patents delve further into the
lubricating medium. It seems that by carefully dinking with the
lubricating/insulating oil and doping it with various things to get conducting
particles spread out in the oil, you can make for a higher signal level stored
in the rotating capacitor, and hence better signal recovery, lower noise, and
all-round better performance.

Zak Izbinsky, Richard Bills and Jamie Ray dug out the detailed info, as
displayed at the Tel-Ray site. The "real stuff" replacement oil for the oilcan
effects is Union Carbide "Ucon" LB-65 oil. It is not carcinogenic, and not PCB oil.


Interesting. Reminds me of a Wimshurst machine a little.

Chris
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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

Thanks for all the interesting answers. My gut reaction is that this concept wouldn't work easily. It's not clear to me if it's possible to readily transfer charge to the bulk of the oil, or if the charge would spread to the outside of the oil column too quickly to be carried to the top. The resistivity of the oil might also be a problem.

Having said that, I would still like to build an electrostatic machine which uses a fluid to convey the charge. It would be novel. If anyone has further thoughts or experience, please let me know.

Just now I had the idea of using particles conveyed by a gas. Powder fire extinguisher style. I need to think that one through. Metal particles would be like sandblasting and would probably destroy the machine, but some other powder might work.

Chris
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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

On Sunday, November 29, 2015 at 3:57:50 PM UTC-8, Christopher Tidy wrote:

Just now I had the idea of using particles conveyed by a gas. Powder fire extinguisher style. I need to think that one through. Metal particles would be like sandblasting and would probably destroy the machine, but some other powder might work.


Yeah, like ice pellets. The charge transfer between small ice pellets (caught in an updraft)
and larger ice pellets (too heavy to move upward) is (the, a?) cause of lightning.
There's a charge-segregation at the surface of ice (which is why ice is slippery),
that lies at the heart of the phenomenon.


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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

I've made a few interesting discoveries. Firstly, Robert Van de Graaff patented the idea of a fluid-based machine in the 1930s. Here's the patent:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=p.../US1991236.pdf

A semi-successful machine was built using hexane as the fluid in the 1970s. This is a New Scientist article which describes the design. It contains some interesting observations. I am now wondering if a more suitable liquid for a hobby generator could be found. It proves at least that the concept can function:
https://books.google.de/books?id=2sH...ge &q&f=false

Someone mentioned the Kelvin water dropper. I was considering if it might be possible to build a Kelvin water dropper with pressurised liquid and some kind of deliberately unstable flow through a special nozzle, or a rotor which cuts the liquid flow. This paper describes something similar on a very small scale:
http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/artic...0a?page=search

Chris




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Default Transporting an electric charge using moving oil

On 11/27/2015 9:00 AM, Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi folks,

This is a question for people with electrical knowledge, especially in the field of electrostatics. It's also spontaneous. I'm not sure if I'm going to build anything yet.

A few years back I built a Van de Graaff generator. It occurred to me at the time that it would be really cool to transport the electric charge using a liquid instead of a moving belt. I thought of pumping bubbles of electrically charged air into a column of oil and allowing them to rise under gravity. But then I did a few calculations and came to the conclusion that you could barely generate enough current from such a system to build a good generator, so I never built it.

This week I acquired one of these chemical pumps when a laboratory was being cleared out (in the 0.25 kW size):
http://www.schmitt-pumpen.de/en/prod...mp-series.html

So today I was thinking: would it be possible to impart an electric charge to insulating oil (no bubbles this time) and pump the oil up the column of a Van de Graaff generator to transport the charge? If it was all made from transparent acrylic, it would look really cool.

Would it work? How could the oil be charged? Perhaps by pumping it through a stainless gauze connected to a high voltage power supply, I was thinking.

Anyone know? For now, it's just a train of thought. But it's interesting...

All the best,

Chris


Hi Chris,
If I were you, I'd post some of the questions raised over in
sci.physics and alt.sci.physics. They will have an answer about
oil and charge carrying capacity. And a whole lot more.

Mikek
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Are you talking about "flow batteries" or something else entirely?



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replying to Christopher Tidy, Brian wrote:
Chris it is amazing that you reached the same conclusion I did, that oil could
replace the charge belt. In a conventional Van De Graaff generator, the lower
end of the charge belt is exposed to a static charge leaking onto the belt,
from a series of sharp needles. The upper end works the same way, but in
reverse - the charges leak off the charge belt, and onto another row of
needles. So. if you replace the charge belt with oil pumped upward into a
cavity at the top with that needle thing again, I think it would work. I have
heard, that Johnson's Baby Oil, which is a mineral oil, has very high
insulative properties, and would work well as a charge pump?

--
for full context, visit http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...il-623813-.htm


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