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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
In case I don't find them...
Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. |
#2
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
"John Doe" wrote in message ... Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Yes. Best Regards Tom. |
#3
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
"Howard Beal" wrote:
"John Doe" wrote Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Yes. Did you land headfirst on the forest floor when you were born? Best Regards Tom. |
#4
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. If you're trying to cut hardened tool steel with a band-saw blade you're going to have serious problems. Try and focus on being clear rather than wasting your limited skill set on flagging posts you don't like, numb nuts. I happen to like Lenox blades. I've had very good luck with them. Get one of their handbooks on band-sawing. Distributors can make a blade for you in any length. http://www.lenoxtools.com/Pages/AllP...and+saw+blades You're welcome, asshole. |
#5
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:34:37 PM UTC-7, Howard Beal wrote:
"John Doe" wrote in message ... Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Yes. Best Regards Tom. Excellent response to an asshole like "John Doe". |
#6
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Might help if you told us what you were trying to do numb nuts. |
#7
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? You want friction-cutting blades. The blade gets cherry-red, the workpiece gets yellow, and the blade wins. Not good for a bandsaw, though, the tires don't like heat. Usually seen in table saw, with lots of precautions against sawdust accumulating in the spark path. |
#8
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them. Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal to have it made either. |
#9
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:38:54 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote: On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote: In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? You want friction-cutting blades. The blade gets cherry-red, the workpiece gets yellow, and the blade wins. Not good for a bandsaw, though, the tires don't like heat. Usually seen in table saw, with lots of precautions against sawdust accumulating in the spark path. Might want to look at these links... http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...utting-264463/ http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...wanted-241052/ "f you are going to do friction cutting, you will have to get a blade speed of better than 5,000 feet perminute (60 miles per hour). You also need wheels of 36 inches in diameter so that you can mount a long blade. The long blade is needed so that it can cool off while it is not in the cut. The blade has to remain reasonably cool so that it is able to develop friction in the metal being cut. Teeth are not important. Your maximum thickness of steel being cut is probably not more that 1/4 inch. The hardness of the steel being cut is not important, you can cut files as easily as low carbon steel. You will also need ball bearing blade guides with about 6 inch wheels. I don't think the Doall saw that you mention is a candidate for friction cutting of anything thicker than 1/16 inch. Also, breaking a blade at more than 60 mph is a exciting experience. Due to the extreme speed, the inertia stored in that blade travelling endwise will cause it to hit the top of the work and end up in a accordion shaped mess. Very violent. I know, it happened to me. Needless to say, the saw will need to have specialized guarding for the blade." http://www.thefabricator.com/article...g-productivity Putting a spark into cutting productivity Exploring the friction alternative THE FABRICATOR® SEPTEMBER 2001 September 4, 2001 By: Phillip S. Waldrop There are many ways to cut sheet, plate, tubing, and structural shapes, ranging from a hand hacksaw to power shears and lasers. Figure 1 There are many ways to cut sheet, plate, tubing, and structural shapes, ranging from a hand hacksaw to power shears and lasers. The best choice depends on the situation at hand, but the goal always is to achieve the best cost, quality, and schedule results. While considering the newest options, it is important not to lose sight of some of the basic process methods and technologies. Friction sawing is one such "oldie but goodie" process. The Friction Sawing Concept For most generally used materials and mainstream applications, conventional sawing or other chip-removal cutting methods are better than friction sawing. Friction sawing can be considered a solution with advantages for special (but common) situations. In true friction sawing, a metal band or circular blade does the cutting, but at much higher speeds than conventional sawing. Instead of shearing small chips of solid material, the high speed creates frictional heat that actually softens the contact surface to the point of melting. At the highest speeds, a dual action sweeps away the molten surface layer as the teeth of the saw blade further penetrate and cut the advancing softened solid layer underneath. A smaller tooth loading or depth of cut is involved, but this is more than offset by the high speed that provides an aggressive rate of penetration into the stock. When friction sawing is performed properly, heat does not build up in the workpiece. Instead, most of the heat is carried off by the metal particles that exit the saw kerf (the narrow slit left by the blades passing through the part). Parts can be handled comfortably immediately after cutting, and there is no significant heat-affected zone. In friction sawing of titanium, such as in trimming hot-formed aircraft parts, a ferrous-contaminated surface layer of about 0.005 inch (0.127 millimeter) may need to be removed, but this is less than that produced with some other cutting methods. Friction sawing cuts quickly through conventional materials and uses basic equipment to cut metals such as white cast iron or tool steel of more than 60 Rockwell hardness C. It can be used to cut such materials as thin sheet and single or bundled thin-wall tubing without snagging on the material. Friction Band Sawing Friction band sawing is a good process for several applications, including cutoff of hard, thin-wall tubing and contour cutting of titanium sheet or other difficult parts (see Figure 1). Particularly if anything other than a straight cut is required, this can be a suitable choice. The basic key to friction band sawing is to attain the high speed necessary to generate sufficient heat. Several band saw manufacturers offer machines designed specifically for friction sawing. A friction band saw typically has a large-diameter wheel to generate blade surface speeds of up to 20,000 surface feet per minute (6,100 surface meters per minute). Its components are balanced to handle these high speeds, and a disk brake system can stop the machine within a few seconds if the blade breaks. The band blades are made typically of high-carbon steel with a high silicon content for heat resistance. The teeth have a wide set that helps to generate frictional heat at the tooth while providing a wide kerf for reduced friction on the sides of the band and long wear life. A tooth pitch of 10 teeth per inch is common, which generates high heat by putting several teeth on the work surface. Some sources indicate the practical limit on material thickness typically is about 1/2 in. (13 mm), although others state that thicknesses of 3/4 in. (19 mm) may be cut effectively. In extreme cases, material up to 1 in. (25 mm) may be friction-sawed, but it requires a struggle involving rocking the part to reduce the effective contact area. Figure 2 It is possible to do a limited amount of friction band sawing with a conventional vertical metal cutting, or even woodworking, band saw. Some people do small jobs by using a worn-out regular blade, sometimes even reversing it to generate more heat with the flat rear edge. However, these machines do not have the combination of power, speed, and special safety features of a true friction sawing machine. They generally are limited to about 5,000 SFPM (1,525 SMPM), which is the bottom end of the speed range for effective friction sawing. And if the saw or work area has oil, wood, or other flammable residue, a friction sawing operation could ignite those materials. Friction Circular Sawing For simple stock cutoff or straight-line sawing, true friction sawing circular blades and machines are available. Some manufacturers make machines with blades as large as 96 in. (2.5 m) in diameter for steel mill work, but the more typical size for a fabrication shop is about 24 in. (0.61 m). A variety of machine styles are available with speeds of up to 25,000 SFPM (7,600 SMPM). The blades usually are made of alloy steel rather than carbon steel and have a tooth design featuring a flat land for friction generation, rather than a normal point. The high rotational forces can create a dangerous situation if a blade breaks, so particularly good safety guarding is required. In friction circular sawing, the life of blades is reduced and fatigue cracking can be more common, so blade suppliers recommend establishing a disciplined blade change schedule. Another key factor is the use of flood coolant water of as much as 350 pounds per square inch (24.5 kilograms per square centimeter). The coolant system must be well-designed, -applied, and -maintained to avoid blade distortion and to flush metal wastes without cooling the friction contact between the teeth and the workpiece. Both friction band and circular sawing operations generate a lot of noise. Special consideration must be given to personal protective equipment for hearing, and engineering controls such as sound-attenuating shields or machine enclosures may be needed to keep exposure to sound levels below Occupational Safety and Health Administration-required maximums. Abrasive Sawing Like circular saws, abrasive disk sawing equipment is available in types ranging from small manual cutoff saws to very large, computer numerically controlled gantry-style machines used to cut plate up to 6 in. (152 mm) thick. Unlike true friction sawing, abrasive sawing does not rely on heat to soften the hard work material. Instead, it uses ceramic grains that are harder than the metal being cut, so that the cutting edges of each abrasive crystal cut a small chip at rates of 20 cubic in. (5,460 cubic mm) or more per minute (see Figure 2). As the individual crystals dull, forces increase until they are torn out of the bonding matrix, exposing new, sharp crystals underneath. This keeps the blade sharp but leads to a continuous reduction in blade diameter and requires fairly frequent replacement. Machine and blade technologies have improved over the years, so the abrasive process has become increasingly competitive. The ratio of metal removed to blade loss continues to improve, and advanced controls can optically monitor the blade diameter and increase the revolutions per minute to maintain a constant surface speed. As with circular sawing, flood coolant is important, but the noise level may be lower. A variety of blade compositions are available, so it is important to seek expert guidance in selection for each application. Low-tech, Low-cost Answer Friction sawing and the related abrasive sawing methods have been around for a long time and continue to advance. These processes cannot be judged now on how the equipment performed a decade or so ago. In many situations, friction or abrasive sawing can provide effective results from relatively low-tech, low-cost equipment that may require no programming or operator skill." I sold a Grob for a client that was used for friction cutting and sanding. Big ol ******* with a huge quanity of various blades..including ones with abrasives mounted on the "blade" itself. IIRC..he got $5k for it , and the (2) cabinets of gear that went with it. |
#10
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 21:00:15 +0100, David Billington
wrote: On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote: In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them. Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal to have it made either. Speaking of carbide, I saw t/c grit jigsaw blades on Harbor Fright's site this morning. They must be a new product. 3 for $5. -- The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold. -- Glenn Doman |
#11
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
Buy M42 tipped blades and cool them before, during and after the cut.
Tool steel is often ground to size. TC is good as well. You don't say what you are cutting - just tool ?? steel ?? Martin On 10/2/2015 3:00 PM, David Billington wrote: On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote: In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them. Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal to have it made either. |
#12
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On 03/10/15 03:53, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 21:00:15 +0100, David Billington wrote: On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote: In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? Thanks. Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them. Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal to have it made either. Speaking of carbide, I saw t/c grit jigsaw blades on Harbor Fright's site this morning. They must be a new product. 3 for $5. Maybe new for HF but I bought some about 15 years ago and IIRC they weren't new then. -- The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold. -- Glenn Doman |
#13
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
whit3rd writes: On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote: In case I don't find them... Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades? You want friction-cutting blades. The blade gets cherry-red, the workpiece gets yellow, and the blade wins. Not good for a bandsaw, though, the tires don't like heat. Usually seen in table saw, with lots of precautions against sawdust accumulating in the spark path. I've heard somewhere about arc cutting with a band saw. Alleged that U-Haul did it in trailer fab. Use wood-cutting speed on a large band saw, insulate the workpiece from the table with masonite, connect one welder lead to the workpiece and one so that the blade is live. Blade said to stay cool enough due to speed. Never heard of it again, too chicken to try to do it with my antique 24" flat-belt drive saw. Anybody actually do this? -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada |
#14
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
Mike Spencer fired this volley in
: I've heard somewhere about arc cutting with a band saw. Alleged that U-Haul did it in trailer fab. Use wood-cutting speed on a large band saw, insulate the workpiece from the table with masonite, connect one welder lead to the workpiece and one so that the blade is live. Blade said to stay cool enough due to speed. Never heard of it again, too chicken to try to do it with my antique 24" flat-belt drive saw. Anybody actually do this? The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-). So, if you had (say) 1 square inch to cut, then you'd better have one square inch's worth of blade to waste before it wears down too far to be able to clear the guide bearings. This is sort of along the lines of "friction heat cutting" with a bandsaw. Yeah... right! You're going to keep the whole length of a band at yellow-white heat continually... Really? Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second! Lloyd |
#15
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 20:10:11 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Mike Spencer fired this volley in : I've heard somewhere about arc cutting with a band saw. Alleged that U-Haul did it in trailer fab. Use wood-cutting speed on a large band saw, insulate the workpiece from the table with masonite, connect one welder lead to the workpiece and one so that the blade is live. Blade said to stay cool enough due to speed. Never heard of it again, too chicken to try to do it with my antique 24" flat-belt drive saw. Anybody actually do this? The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-). So, if you had (say) 1 square inch to cut, then you'd better have one square inch's worth of blade to waste before it wears down too far to be able to clear the guide bearings. This is sort of along the lines of "friction heat cutting" with a bandsaw. Yeah... right! You're going to keep the whole length of a band at yellow-white heat continually... Really? Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second! Lloyd The business about the band getting yellow hot is nonsense. The body of a friction blade gets barely warm to the touch. 6000 FPM (100 FPS) is fast enough for most uses, but some machines run up to 15000 FPM. I used to have a 36" saw that ran around 6000 FPM, and it made quick work of 1/4" stainless, was acceptable for 1/2" SS plate, and would sever 3/4" bar stock in a pinch. My 16" DoAll tops out at 1500 FPM, and will cut 1/8" SS, but it's a stretch. -- Ned Simmons |
#16
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 9:10:14 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-). Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second! Lloyd I would expect the erosion to be equal if the voltage was AC. But not so sure about DC. If I recall correctly when doing edm , the erosion of the tool is less than the erosion of the work. Dan |
#17
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 9:10:14 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-). Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second! Lloyd I would expect the erosion to be equal if the voltage was AC. But not so sure about DC. If I recall correctly when doing edm , the erosion of the tool is less than the erosion of the work. It is, if the polarity is right and the relative melting points don't interfere. It's possible to get "zero wear" on an EDM electrode (the electrode wears, but the workpiece material is re-deposited on the electrode at the same rate). It's tricky and not something to try with a bandsaw blade. But there will be a difference in relative wear based on several factors -- which I'd have to look up, but for which I don't have the time. I've stayed out of this thread because I saw no mention of workpiece material hardness, only that it's "tool steel." Annealed tool steel is commonly cut with a variety of HSS sawblades, typically the bimetal type. Hardened tool steel can be cut with a carbide-toothed blade but that requires a very rigid saw, hydraulic downfeed, and a bit of experimenting. -- Ed Huntress Dan |
#18
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Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?
On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:17:05 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 9:10:14 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-). Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second! Lloyd I would expect the erosion to be equal if the voltage was AC. But not so sure about DC. If I recall correctly when doing edm , the erosion of the tool is less than the erosion of the work. It is, if the polarity is right and the relative melting points don't interfere. It's possible to get "zero wear" on an EDM electrode (the electrode wears, but the workpiece material is re-deposited on the electrode at the same rate). It's tricky and not something to try with a bandsaw blade. But there will be a difference in relative wear based on several factors -- which I'd have to look up, but for which I don't have the time. I've stayed out of this thread because I saw no mention of workpiece material hardness, only that it's "tool steel." Annealed tool steel is commonly cut with a variety of HSS sawblades, typically the bimetal type. Hardened tool steel can be cut with a carbide-toothed blade but that requires a very rigid saw, hydraulic downfeed, and a bit of experimenting. Or, if your band saw can handle it you can friction saw it. They make, or made, special friction sawing blades or for occasional use you can just weld a blade the "other way" so the teeth point up. It takes more than the usual pressure to get the cut started but once it starts to cut feed pressure seems a bit less then conventional sawing. I've cut 1/2" HSS tool bits by friction sawing with no problems. -- cheers, John B. |
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