Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.
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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?


"John Doe" wrote in message
...

Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.


Yes.

Best Regards
Tom.


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"Howard Beal" wrote:

"John Doe" wrote


Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.


Yes.


Did you land headfirst on the forest floor when you were born?











Best Regards
Tom.




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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.


If you're trying to cut hardened tool steel with a band-saw blade you're going to have serious problems. Try and focus on being clear rather than wasting your limited skill set on flagging posts you don't like, numb nuts.

I happen to like Lenox blades. I've had very good luck with them. Get one of their handbooks on band-sawing. Distributors can make a blade for you in any length.

http://www.lenoxtools.com/Pages/AllP...and+saw+blades

You're welcome, asshole.




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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:34:37 PM UTC-7, Howard Beal wrote:
"John Doe" wrote in message
...

Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.


Yes.

Best Regards
Tom.



Excellent response to an asshole like "John Doe".






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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.


Might help if you told us what you were trying to do numb nuts.
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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?


You want friction-cutting blades. The blade gets cherry-red, the workpiece
gets yellow, and the blade wins. Not good for a bandsaw, though,
the tires don't like heat. Usually seen in table saw, with lots of
precautions against sawdust accumulating in the spark path.
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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.

Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them.
Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten
carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely
do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade
and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal
to have it made either.
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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:38:54 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?


You want friction-cutting blades. The blade gets cherry-red, the workpiece
gets yellow, and the blade wins. Not good for a bandsaw, though,
the tires don't like heat. Usually seen in table saw, with lots of
precautions against sawdust accumulating in the spark path.


Might want to look at these links...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...utting-264463/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...wanted-241052/

"f you are going to do friction cutting, you will have to get a blade
speed of better than 5,000 feet perminute (60 miles per hour). You
also need wheels of 36 inches in diameter so that you can mount a long
blade. The long blade is needed so that it can cool off while it is
not in the cut. The blade has to remain reasonably cool so that it is
able to develop friction in the metal being cut. Teeth are not
important. Your maximum thickness of steel being cut is probably not
more that 1/4 inch. The hardness of the steel being cut is not
important, you can cut files as easily as low carbon steel. You will
also need ball bearing blade guides with about 6 inch wheels. I don't
think the Doall saw that you mention is a candidate for friction
cutting of anything thicker than 1/16 inch.

Also, breaking a blade at more than 60 mph is a exciting experience.
Due to the extreme speed, the inertia stored in that blade travelling
endwise will cause it to hit the top of the work and end up in a
accordion shaped mess. Very violent. I know, it happened to me.
Needless to say, the saw will need to have specialized guarding for
the blade."

http://www.thefabricator.com/article...g-productivity

Putting a spark into cutting productivity
Exploring the friction alternative
THE FABRICATOR® SEPTEMBER 2001

September 4, 2001

By: Phillip S. Waldrop

There are many ways to cut sheet, plate, tubing, and structural
shapes, ranging from a hand hacksaw to power shears and lasers.
Figure 1

There are many ways to cut sheet, plate, tubing, and structural
shapes, ranging from a hand hacksaw to power shears and lasers. The
best choice depends on the situation at hand, but the goal always is
to achieve the best cost, quality, and schedule results.

While considering the newest options, it is important not to lose
sight of some of the basic process methods and technologies. Friction
sawing is one such "oldie but goodie" process.
The Friction Sawing Concept

For most generally used materials and mainstream applications,
conventional sawing or other chip-removal cutting methods are better
than friction sawing. Friction sawing can be considered a solution
with advantages for special (but common) situations.

In true friction sawing, a metal band or circular blade does the
cutting, but at much higher speeds than conventional sawing. Instead
of shearing small chips of solid material, the high speed creates
frictional heat that actually softens the contact surface to the point
of melting.

At the highest speeds, a dual action sweeps away the molten surface
layer as the teeth of the saw blade further penetrate and cut the
advancing softened solid layer underneath. A smaller tooth loading or
depth of cut is involved, but this is more than offset by the high
speed that provides an aggressive rate of penetration into the stock.

When friction sawing is performed properly, heat does not build up in
the workpiece. Instead, most of the heat is carried off by the metal
particles that exit the saw kerf (the narrow slit left by the blades
passing through the part). Parts can be handled comfortably
immediately after cutting, and there is no significant heat-affected
zone.

In friction sawing of titanium, such as in trimming hot-formed
aircraft parts, a ferrous-contaminated surface layer of about 0.005
inch (0.127 millimeter) may need to be removed, but this is less than
that produced with some other cutting methods.

Friction sawing cuts quickly through conventional materials and uses
basic equipment to cut metals such as white cast iron or tool steel of
more than 60 Rockwell hardness C. It can be used to cut such materials
as thin sheet and single or bundled thin-wall tubing without snagging
on the material.
Friction Band Sawing

Friction band sawing is a good process for several applications,
including cutoff of hard, thin-wall tubing and contour cutting of
titanium sheet or other difficult parts (see Figure 1). Particularly
if anything other than a straight cut is required, this can be a
suitable choice.

The basic key to friction band sawing is to attain the high speed
necessary to generate sufficient heat. Several band saw manufacturers
offer machines designed specifically for friction sawing. A friction
band saw typically has a large-diameter wheel to generate blade
surface speeds of up to 20,000 surface feet per minute (6,100 surface
meters per minute). Its components are balanced to handle these high
speeds, and a disk brake system can stop the machine within a few
seconds if the blade breaks.

The band blades are made typically of high-carbon steel with a high
silicon content for heat resistance. The teeth have a wide set that
helps to generate frictional heat at the tooth while providing a wide
kerf for reduced friction on the sides of the band and long wear life.
A tooth pitch of 10 teeth per inch is common, which generates high
heat by putting several teeth on the work surface.

Some sources indicate the practical limit on material thickness
typically is about 1/2 in. (13 mm), although others state that
thicknesses of 3/4 in. (19 mm) may be cut effectively. In extreme
cases, material up to 1 in. (25 mm) may be friction-sawed, but it
requires a struggle involving rocking the part to reduce the effective
contact area.
Figure 2

It is possible to do a limited amount of friction band sawing with a
conventional vertical metal cutting, or even woodworking, band saw.
Some people do small jobs by using a worn-out regular blade, sometimes
even reversing it to generate more heat with the flat rear edge.

However, these machines do not have the combination of power, speed,
and special safety features of a true friction sawing machine. They
generally are limited to about 5,000 SFPM (1,525 SMPM), which is the
bottom end of the speed range for effective friction sawing. And if
the saw or work area has oil, wood, or other flammable residue, a
friction sawing operation could ignite those materials.
Friction Circular Sawing

For simple stock cutoff or straight-line sawing, true friction sawing
circular blades and machines are available. Some manufacturers make
machines with blades as large as 96 in. (2.5 m) in diameter for steel
mill work, but the more typical size for a fabrication shop is about
24 in. (0.61 m).

A variety of machine styles are available with speeds of up to 25,000
SFPM (7,600 SMPM). The blades usually are made of alloy steel rather
than carbon steel and have a tooth design featuring a flat land for
friction generation, rather than a normal point. The high rotational
forces can create a dangerous situation if a blade breaks, so
particularly good safety guarding is required.

In friction circular sawing, the life of blades is reduced and fatigue
cracking can be more common, so blade suppliers recommend establishing
a disciplined blade change schedule. Another key factor is the use of
flood coolant water of as much as 350 pounds per square inch (24.5
kilograms per square centimeter). The coolant system must be
well-designed, -applied, and -maintained to avoid blade distortion and
to flush metal wastes without cooling the friction contact between the
teeth and the workpiece.

Both friction band and circular sawing operations generate a lot of
noise. Special consideration must be given to personal protective
equipment for hearing, and engineering controls such as
sound-attenuating shields or machine enclosures may be needed to keep
exposure to sound levels below Occupational Safety and Health
Administration-required maximums.
Abrasive Sawing

Like circular saws, abrasive disk sawing equipment is available in
types ranging from small manual cutoff saws to very large, computer
numerically controlled gantry-style machines used to cut plate up to 6
in. (152 mm) thick.

Unlike true friction sawing, abrasive sawing does not rely on heat to
soften the hard work material. Instead, it uses ceramic grains that
are harder than the metal being cut, so that the cutting edges of each
abrasive crystal cut a small chip at rates of 20 cubic in. (5,460
cubic mm) or more per minute (see Figure 2).

As the individual crystals dull, forces increase until they are torn
out of the bonding matrix, exposing new, sharp crystals underneath.
This keeps the blade sharp but leads to a continuous reduction in
blade diameter and requires fairly frequent replacement.

Machine and blade technologies have improved over the years, so the
abrasive process has become increasingly competitive. The ratio of
metal removed to blade loss continues to improve, and advanced
controls can optically monitor the blade diameter and increase the
revolutions per minute to maintain a constant surface speed. As with
circular sawing, flood coolant is important, but the noise level may
be lower. A variety of blade compositions are available, so it is
important to seek expert guidance in selection for each application.
Low-tech, Low-cost Answer

Friction sawing and the related abrasive sawing methods have been
around for a long time and continue to advance. These processes cannot
be judged now on how the equipment performed a decade or so ago. In
many situations, friction or abrasive sawing can provide effective
results from relatively low-tech, low-cost equipment that may require
no programming or operator skill."


I sold a Grob for a client that was used for friction cutting and
sanding. Big ol ******* with a huge quanity of various
blades..including ones with abrasives mounted on the "blade" itself.

IIRC..he got $5k for it , and the (2) cabinets of gear that went with
it.

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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 21:00:15 +0100, David Billington
wrote:

On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.

Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them.
Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten
carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely
do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade
and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal
to have it made either.


Speaking of carbide, I saw t/c grit jigsaw blades on Harbor Fright's
site this morning. They must be a new product. 3 for $5.

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman


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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

Buy M42 tipped blades and cool them before, during and after the cut.

Tool steel is often ground to size.

TC is good as well.

You don't say what you are cutting - just tool ?? steel ??

Martin

On 10/2/2015 3:00 PM, David Billington wrote:
On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.

Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them.
Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten
carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely
do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade
and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal
to have it made either.

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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On 03/10/15 03:53, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 21:00:15 +0100, David Billington
wrote:

On 02/10/15 04:20, John Doe wrote:
In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?

Thanks.

Look up a company that makes bandsaw blades to order and ask them.
Bandsaw blade stock in many sizes and is available in both tungsten
carbide grit coated and diamond grit coated so one of those will likely
do. I know a chap that cuts up truck tyres with a TC grit coated blade
and it slices through the steel belting easily, didn't cost a great deal
to have it made either.

Speaking of carbide, I saw t/c grit jigsaw blades on Harbor Fright's
site this morning. They must be a new product. 3 for $5.

Maybe new for HF but I bought some about 15 years ago and IIRC they
weren't new then.


--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman


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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?


whit3rd writes:

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:22:33 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:

In case I don't find them...

Looking for 59 1/2 inch bandsaw blades for cutting tool steel. As in hard
steel. Do they make abrasive bandsaw blades?


You want friction-cutting blades. The blade gets cherry-red, the workpiece
gets yellow, and the blade wins. Not good for a bandsaw, though,
the tires don't like heat. Usually seen in table saw, with lots of
precautions against sawdust accumulating in the spark path.


I've heard somewhere about arc cutting with a band saw. Alleged that
U-Haul did it in trailer fab. Use wood-cutting speed on a large band
saw, insulate the workpiece from the table with masonite, connect one
welder lead to the workpiece and one so that the blade is live. Blade
said to stay cool enough due to speed.

Never heard of it again, too chicken to try to do it with my antique
24" flat-belt drive saw.

Anybody actually do this?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

Mike Spencer fired this volley in
:

I've heard somewhere about arc cutting with a band saw. Alleged that
U-Haul did it in trailer fab. Use wood-cutting speed on a large band
saw, insulate the workpiece from the table with masonite, connect one
welder lead to the workpiece and one so that the blade is live. Blade
said to stay cool enough due to speed.

Never heard of it again, too chicken to try to do it with my antique
24" flat-belt drive saw.

Anybody actually do this?


The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the
same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-). So, if you
had (say) 1 square inch to cut, then you'd better have one square inch's
worth of blade to waste before it wears down too far to be able to clear
the guide bearings.

This is sort of along the lines of "friction heat cutting" with a
bandsaw. Yeah... right! You're going to keep the whole length of a band
at yellow-white heat continually... Really?

Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second!

Lloyd
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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 20:10:11 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Mike Spencer fired this volley in
:

I've heard somewhere about arc cutting with a band saw. Alleged that
U-Haul did it in trailer fab. Use wood-cutting speed on a large band
saw, insulate the workpiece from the table with masonite, connect one
welder lead to the workpiece and one so that the blade is live. Blade
said to stay cool enough due to speed.

Never heard of it again, too chicken to try to do it with my antique
24" flat-belt drive saw.

Anybody actually do this?


The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the
same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-). So, if you
had (say) 1 square inch to cut, then you'd better have one square inch's
worth of blade to waste before it wears down too far to be able to clear
the guide bearings.

This is sort of along the lines of "friction heat cutting" with a
bandsaw. Yeah... right! You're going to keep the whole length of a band
at yellow-white heat continually... Really?

Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second!

Lloyd


The business about the band getting yellow hot is nonsense. The body
of a friction blade gets barely warm to the touch. 6000 FPM (100 FPS)
is fast enough for most uses, but some machines run up to 15000 FPM. I
used to have a 36" saw that ran around 6000 FPM, and it made quick
work of 1/4" stainless, was acceptable for 1/2" SS plate, and would
sever 3/4" bar stock in a pinch. My 16" DoAll tops out at 1500 FPM,
and will cut 1/8" SS, but it's a stretch.

--
Ned Simmons


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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 9:10:14 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:


The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the
same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-).
Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second!

Lloyd


I would expect the erosion to be equal if the voltage was AC. But not so sure about DC. If I recall correctly when doing edm , the erosion of the tool is less than the erosion of the work.

Dan

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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 9:10:14 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:


The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the
same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-).
Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second!

Lloyd


I would expect the erosion to be equal if the voltage was AC. But not so sure about DC. If I recall correctly when doing edm , the erosion of the tool is less than the erosion of the work.


It is, if the polarity is right and the relative melting points don't
interfere.

It's possible to get "zero wear" on an EDM electrode (the electrode
wears, but the workpiece material is re-deposited on the electrode at
the same rate). It's tricky and not something to try with a bandsaw
blade. But there will be a difference in relative wear based on
several factors -- which I'd have to look up, but for which I don't
have the time.

I've stayed out of this thread because I saw no mention of workpiece
material hardness, only that it's "tool steel." Annealed tool steel is
commonly cut with a variety of HSS sawblades, typically the bimetal
type. Hardened tool steel can be cut with a carbide-toothed blade but
that requires a very rigid saw, hydraulic downfeed, and a bit of
experimenting.

--
Ed Huntress

Dan

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Default Common bandsaw blade that cuts tool steel?

On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:17:05 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 9:10:14 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:


The band might stay "cool enough", but arc erosion would be exactly the
same on the blade as it was on the material being cut (+-).
Well, maybe if your bandsaw can run at a couple-hundred feet per second!

Lloyd


I would expect the erosion to be equal if the voltage was AC. But not so sure about DC. If I recall correctly when doing edm , the erosion of the tool is less than the erosion of the work.


It is, if the polarity is right and the relative melting points don't
interfere.

It's possible to get "zero wear" on an EDM electrode (the electrode
wears, but the workpiece material is re-deposited on the electrode at
the same rate). It's tricky and not something to try with a bandsaw
blade. But there will be a difference in relative wear based on
several factors -- which I'd have to look up, but for which I don't
have the time.

I've stayed out of this thread because I saw no mention of workpiece
material hardness, only that it's "tool steel." Annealed tool steel is
commonly cut with a variety of HSS sawblades, typically the bimetal
type. Hardened tool steel can be cut with a carbide-toothed blade but
that requires a very rigid saw, hydraulic downfeed, and a bit of
experimenting.


Or, if your band saw can handle it you can friction saw it. They make,
or made, special friction sawing blades or for occasional use you can
just weld a blade the "other way" so the teeth point up. It takes more
than the usual pressure to get the cut started but once it starts to
cut feed pressure seems a bit less then conventional sawing.

I've cut 1/2" HSS tool bits by friction sawing with no problems.
--
cheers,

John B.

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