Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Is this idea crazy?

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:57:24 -0400, Tom Gardner
wrote:

On 8/29/2015 12:45 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Ammo mfgrs in the USA alone are making 4.2 billion rounds a year.
CCI makes 4 million rounds per day.

Where the hell are they all going, ferchrissake? Preppers couldn't buy
up that many every day for years on end, as it has been going,
especially at 3-5x the normal price. This is just nuts.


And you wouldn't think that .22LR is the first choice for prepers.


Now that AR mfgrs are making .22 barrels to make plinking cheaper on
the AR platform, rich fuppies are stocking up, ah guess.


Wideners has what seems to be good prices...if you are unlucky enough to
have to buy ammo.


It's the assholes thinking they can trade individual .22 boolies for
diamonds right after the Fall, methinks.


Even I am thinking pellet gun, I wonder if I can cast my own pellets
before they start selling for $0.10 ea.??? (Wait 'til they tax air!)


It's coming!

--
The mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work until it's opened.
--Frank Zappa
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On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:16:22 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:42:31 -0400, "Robert"
wrote:

wrote in message ...


So, am I nut to consider this?


Maybe? but there is a easier way. Just reload the 22lr yourself.

http://22lrreloader.com/




Robert

I looked at that device. Maybe if I was a prepper. But scraping the
white stuff off of strike anywhere matches to make priming compound is
a pretty lame way to re-load .22s. Besides, if this method becomes
popular then strike anywhere matches will probably cost 20 bucks a
box.
Eric


Eric , you didn't look at the link . They have priming compound ... and I
considered buying some for the making of percussion caps for my muzzle
loader . But I think I'll try the toy caps I bought first . The compound is
only 20 bucks for enough for 1,000 (2,000 ?) rimfire cartridges , probably
yield about the same for caps .

Greetings Terry,
Sorry for the late reply. Router problems. I did look at the link, I
watched the video abouit using matchheads, and decided it was all too
much trouble. But I looked again after reading your message and did
find the priming compound. It is only mentioned by clicking on the
buy/checkout link. But I am really interested now. Thanks for pointing
out to me the availability of the priming compound.
Eric
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SNIP
So, am I nut to consider this?
Thanks,
Eric


You probably will get a flood of responses, so I'll pipe up once and
then retreat. g

1) John Browning designed the .25 ACP around the smallest-diameter
cartridge (base diameter .278 in.) that he felt would be safe with a
small-pistol primer. The cartridge is semi-rimmed; tricky but not
impossible to extract with a simple extractor.

2) Performance is similar to a .22 LR; slightly better in very short
barrels, slightly less in longer barrels.

3) Machined brass is not as strong as formed brass, so you need
thicker walls if you machine it. 'Better to use existing commercial
brass.

4) If you get fancy and decide to neck it down to .22, watch out.
You'd be getting into some tricky engineering territory, where
pressures build up in a hurry, depending on what powder you use.

5) Black powder is a mess in small calibers. My friend built a .28
cal. muzzleloader years ago, when Douglas still made the barrels, and
had to swab the bore after every shot, because of bore fouling. The
experts here can give you better suggestions but more likely you'd
want to use a pinch of Red Dot or something similar and more modern (I
use Red Dot in my light loads).

6) With very light loads, the brass can go on and on for a very long
time. However, if you go *really* light, you're going to have big
variations in velocity, and can even wind up with bullets that lodge
in the barrel. Don't go too light.

Back around 1990 I designed a wildcat based on the .32 S&W long,
necked down to .20 cal. That's when I learned about pressures and thin
pistol brass. I made a cherry for it on my lathe but I never finished
the gun, which was to be built on a replica Farquharson falling-block
action that I still have. When I learned about how much potential
trouble I was buying myself I backed out.

Unless you want a new, very involved hobby, stay away from designing
wildcats. .22 rimfire can't be that hard to get. Some cartridge makers
stopped making longs years ago because they're unbalanced and
generally give poor accuracy. If you want quiet, buy some classy .22
LR match ammo. You can watch the bullet go downrange and you may have
to look to see if the gun fired. g But it will drive tacks in a good
target gun.

Greetings ED,
Sorry about the long time for the reply. I have been having internet
problems and the problem was finally solved about 15 minutes ago.
Anyway, with the light loads I want to shoot I am not worried about a
rifle that can handle .22 long rifles rounds having problems if a case
I made fails. But maybe there are things I don't know about that could
make the lightly loaded rounds dangerous. So if anyone knows why my
proposed round might be dangerous in either a rifle or a revolver
please let me know. I'm also curious about black powder being so
messy. At the time my rolling block rifle was made I have been told by
many shooters that .22 rounds were filled with black powder. In fact,
a friend of mine has a .22 Stevens tip up pistol and he was warned by
his local gunsmith/dealer to shoot only .22 subsonic or CB rounds
because the pistol was made for black powder filled rounds. Surely
these guns and rifles didn't cleaning after every shot, did they?
Cheers,
Eric
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On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 18:14:03 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 3:07:30 PM UTC-4, wrote:

So, am I nut to consider this?
Thanks,
Eric


I think you are nuts to consider this. Have you considered buying a pellet rifle? It would have most of the featues you want. Low cost, low noise, and ammo available.

Prices are coming down on .22 ammo, but I do not see any CB caps.

Dan

I like shooting with CB shorts. I don't really care for air rifles. If
it was a survival thing after everything goes to hell an air rifle
would be a good choice. We have lots of squirrels and rabbits around
here. But if everything goes to hell I'll probably not have any game
af any sort to shoot at because everybody else will be trying to shoot
the same game.
Eric
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On 30 Aug 2015 00:24:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-08-28, wrote:
As anyone who shoots knows, it has become pretty hard to get .22 ammo.
Especially CB shorts and longs. And then when you do find some it is
of limited amount and exorbitant cost. So as I was trying to fall
asleep after waking from a hot flash in the middle of the night it
occurred to me that I could make my own .22 centerfire brass, cast my
own bullets, and use off the shelf primers. Checking yesterday for
primer availability I found several sellers with small pistol primers
in stock at less than $30.00 per 1000. That's less than 3 cents per
primer, about what I used to pay before this ammo buying panic and
subsequent gouging started. This morning I examined the bolt on my
Remington model 514 and determined it would be pretty easy to make a
new bolt for centerfire ammo. And most of the parts from the existing
could be used in the new one.


My S&W .22 Jet will fire either centerfire .22 Jet cartridges
(.357 magnum necked down to .22) *or* .22 rimfire, either with a
swap-out of cylinder or with adaptor sleeves in the standard .22 Jet
cylinder. It does this with a pair of firing pins, and a switchable
striker in the hammer, so no modification needed there.

The mods to a Ruger .22 target would be fairly simple, but you
would want to set up a catcher for the brass so you *could* reload it
before someone stepped on it.

I would need to machine cases from solid
brass, but I have a lathe with a bar feed setup that could make them
really fast. Each case would require two operations so I could run the
second operation while the lathe was doing the first operation. I have
never really reloaded ammo before though I did reload a few rounds 45
years ago when a friend's dad showed me how his reloading setup
worked. He let me load a few rounds but I may as well have never done
it before because it was so long ago. But from reading about it online
it appears that spent brass cases can usually be used 4 or 5 times,
and some times even more depending on how light or heavy the load is.


Even a .22 LR would be very light by comparison with the .22
Jet, and would probably get something like 20 or more reloads. Consider
just how lightweight the .22 rimfire cartridges are. The case comes
back as a cylinder, bulges out and folds back in to make the back,
providing a crushable space for the rimfire primer compound to lurk in
and be triggered by the firing pin.

I have lots of pure lead and making a mold would be pretty easy. But
would a machined case be as durable as a formed case?


Far more durable than a .22 rimfire case, I would expect.

And since the
smallest primers I can find are .175" O.D. and .22 brass is .224" O.D.
there would only be a .0245 wall thickness between the primer and the
case outside.


Consider that while the OD of the primer is 0.175", the case
needs to reduce the through hole diameter to something quite a bit
smaller to support the anvil built into the primer.

Then again, since the case is trapped in the chamber
maybe that's not a problem.


The thickness of the base required to properly support the
primer should make something a lot stronger than the .22 rimfire case,
so I would not worry -- even with smokeless up to a full .22 LR load,
and you are going to be a lot milder.

And I would be using black powder or
black powder substitute, not smokeless powder, since my aim is to make
low power quiet ammo for target practice. I have a small revolver and
two rifles that I could convert to centerfire without too much work.
So, am I nut to consider this?


An interesting project.

Normal cartridges (except for the rimfire ones) are normally
made by cutting out a disc of brass, then deep drawing the walls while
the base is clamped in position until you get a cylindrical shape, then
the normal sizing operations for tapered cases. And the rim is turned
as necessary, and the primer pocket swaged (harder than if machined from
the brass. There are certainly a number of annealing steps during the
forming, of course. But for the strength loads you are planning,
machined cases will certainly be strong enough.

Shoot enough, and you will want an automatic screw machine to
produce them. :-)

Good Luck,
DoN.

Greetings DoN,
Who cares about the naysayers? I really wanna make some of my own
centerfire rounds now. So I am going to try.
Cheers,
Eric


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On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:34:56 -0700, wrote:

SNIP
So, am I nut to consider this?
Thanks,
Eric


You probably will get a flood of responses, so I'll pipe up once and
then retreat. g

1) John Browning designed the .25 ACP around the smallest-diameter
cartridge (base diameter .278 in.) that he felt would be safe with a
small-pistol primer. The cartridge is semi-rimmed; tricky but not
impossible to extract with a simple extractor.

2) Performance is similar to a .22 LR; slightly better in very short
barrels, slightly less in longer barrels.

3) Machined brass is not as strong as formed brass, so you need
thicker walls if you machine it. 'Better to use existing commercial
brass.

4) If you get fancy and decide to neck it down to .22, watch out.
You'd be getting into some tricky engineering territory, where
pressures build up in a hurry, depending on what powder you use.

5) Black powder is a mess in small calibers. My friend built a .28
cal. muzzleloader years ago, when Douglas still made the barrels, and
had to swab the bore after every shot, because of bore fouling. The
experts here can give you better suggestions but more likely you'd
want to use a pinch of Red Dot or something similar and more modern (I
use Red Dot in my light loads).

6) With very light loads, the brass can go on and on for a very long
time. However, if you go *really* light, you're going to have big
variations in velocity, and can even wind up with bullets that lodge
in the barrel. Don't go too light.

Back around 1990 I designed a wildcat based on the .32 S&W long,
necked down to .20 cal. That's when I learned about pressures and thin
pistol brass. I made a cherry for it on my lathe but I never finished
the gun, which was to be built on a replica Farquharson falling-block
action that I still have. When I learned about how much potential
trouble I was buying myself I backed out.

Unless you want a new, very involved hobby, stay away from designing
wildcats. .22 rimfire can't be that hard to get. Some cartridge makers
stopped making longs years ago because they're unbalanced and
generally give poor accuracy. If you want quiet, buy some classy .22
LR match ammo. You can watch the bullet go downrange and you may have
to look to see if the gun fired. g But it will drive tacks in a good
target gun.

Greetings ED,
Sorry about the long time for the reply. I have been having internet
problems and the problem was finally solved about 15 minutes ago.
Anyway, with the light loads I want to shoot I am not worried about a
rifle that can handle .22 long rifles rounds having problems if a case
I made fails. But maybe there are things I don't know about that could
make the lightly loaded rounds dangerous. So if anyone knows why my
proposed round might be dangerous in either a rifle or a revolver
please let me know. I'm also curious about black powder being so
messy. At the time my rolling block rifle was made I have been told by
many shooters that .22 rounds were filled with black powder. In fact,
a friend of mine has a .22 Stevens tip up pistol and he was warned by
his local gunsmith/dealer to shoot only .22 subsonic or CB rounds
because the pistol was made for black powder filled rounds. Surely
these guns and rifles didn't cleaning after every shot, did they?
Cheers,
Eric


The BP experts probably will chime in here. I've only shot BP in
muzzleloaders; I don't know how it behaves in breechloaders, but it is
a mess, in any case. It leaves a lot of fouling behind. It also leaves
a LOT of sulfurous smoke. IIRC, you were thinking of shooting indoors.
That's not a good idea with BP. At my old indoor range, shooting BP
was limited to two days per week, and they turned the exhaust fans up
to a full roar.

Regarding the safety of your proposed cartridge, again, you need to
listen to the experts. Small loads of slow-burning smokeless powders
actually can build up very high pressures. I don't know how small or
how slow-burning. BP supposedly is self-limiting to around 12,000 psi,
but that, too, is a subject for the experts.

Go with the airgun. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress
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