On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

Hear Hear!!!

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

On 7/15/2015 11:27 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

Hear Hear!!!

LOL! You claim to be a "Renzi Buddhist", but Buddhism doesn't include
belief in a creator.

On 7/15/2015 11:28 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

There certainly is no creator-god in the "religion" you claim to follow.

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On 7/15/2015 11:49 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

As I explained earlier, rights are an artifact of human imagination.
They exist because we can imagine them, and our existence is better for
imagining and then acknowledging them. As you note, they are not
"granted" by king or any other entity - they are inherent in all people.
They may not always be respected, but that's why we speak of rights
being violated, not having been withdrawn.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:40:57 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:28 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

There certainly is no creator-god in the "religion" you claim to follow.

Im Buddhist. And?

Im still waiting for an answer to the question.."why would you assume
it to be the "God of Abraham"?

Gunner

On 7/15/2015 12:04 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:40:57 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:28 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

There certainly is no creator-god in the "religion" you claim to follow.

Im Buddhist.

Still waiting for your cites to support that.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Absolutely correct!! Well stated!!

Our Rights (republic)....if we can keep them.
Paraphrasing Ben Franklin

Gunner

On 7/15/2015 12:16 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Absolutely correct!! Well stated!!

Where do the rights come from? What or who is the "creator", you fake
"Buddhist"?

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:04:20 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:40:57 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:28 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

There certainly is no creator-god in the "religion" you claim to follow.

Im Buddhist. And?

Im still waiting for an answer to the question.."why would you assume
it to be the "God of Abraham"?

Even money that the god he does not believe in is either Christian
or Jewish.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On 7/15/2015 4:26 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:04:20 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:40:57 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:28 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

There certainly is no creator-god in the "religion" you claim to follow.

Im Buddhist. And?

Im still waiting for an answer to the question.."why would you assume
it to be the "God of Abraham"?

Even money that the god he does not believe in is either Christian
or Jewish.

I don't believe in any god at all.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:40:15 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:27 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

Hear Hear!!!

LOL! You claim to be a "Renzi Buddhist", but Buddhism doesn't include
belief in a creator.


Nor does it deny one. In fact there is reference to the Buddha being
asked whether the Gods would live forever and he ignored the question
saying it was valueless.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

Because that it the god professed by the three middle east religions.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

I would question the "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." Endowed? What proof do we have for that
statement? Carved in Tablets of Stone?


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:55:11 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:49 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

As I explained earlier, rights are an artifact of human imagination.
They exist because we can imagine them, and our existence is better for
imagining and then acknowledging them. As you note, they are not
"granted" by king or any other entity - they are inherent in all people.
They may not always be respected, but that's why we speak of rights
being violated, not having been withdrawn.

I think that you are using a lot of words to say nothing. We may well
imagine that you have a right to have money and rob the 7-11 to get
some money to buy booze with, after all we have the right to abuse out
bodies if we wish... Unfortunately nearly all societies deny you that
right. You may imagine that you should be paid a day's wages for a
day's work but almost all societies deny that and grab part of your
money to help the illegal immigrants that Gunner worries about.

So what are these inherent rights?
--
cheers,

John B.

On 7/15/2015 7:21 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:40:15 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:27 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

Hear Hear!!!

LOL! You claim to be a "Renzi Buddhist", but Buddhism doesn't include
belief in a creator.


Nor does it deny one.

Effectively, it does.

Anyway, gummer is about as much a "Renzi Buddhist" as is the Pope. It's
complete ********.

On 7/15/2015 7:21 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

I would question the "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." Endowed? What proof do we have for that
statement? Carved in Tablets of Stone?

It's just another way of saying rights are inherent.

On 7/15/2015 7:21 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:55:11 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:49 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

As I explained earlier, rights are an artifact of human imagination.
They exist because we can imagine them, and our existence is better for
imagining and then acknowledging them. As you note, they are not
"granted" by king or any other entity - they are inherent in all people.
They may not always be respected, but that's why we speak of rights
being violated, not having been withdrawn.

I think that you are using a lot of words to say nothing.

You're wrong about that.


We may well
imagine that you have a right to have money and rob the 7-11

Those aren't rights.

We can argue about what rights we actually have, but the idea that
humans imagined the basic idea of rights is inarguable.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 21:36:08 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 7:21 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:55:11 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:49 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

As I explained earlier, rights are an artifact of human imagination.
They exist because we can imagine them, and our existence is better for
imagining and then acknowledging them. As you note, they are not
"granted" by king or any other entity - they are inherent in all people.
They may not always be respected, but that's why we speak of rights
being violated, not having been withdrawn.

I think that you are using a lot of words to say nothing.

You're wrong about that.


We may well
imagine that you have a right to have money and rob the 7-11

Those aren't rights.

We can argue about what rights we actually have, but the idea that
humans imagined the basic idea of rights is inarguable.

Right about rights. And the origins of it are very interesting. For us
and our modern ideas about rights, it got *really* interesting during
the Enlightenment, when the primary thinkers collectively codified
them and then beat all around the bush describing their origins. It
was made particularly difficult for Locke, for example, who was trying
to make a case for a scientific basis of rights and the "laws of
nature," while simultaneously trying to keep his tender ass out of
prison for blasphemy. Jefferson faced a milder version of that
problem, political rather than legal, and worked around it by
referring several times to "nature's God."

Here's a pretty good and succinct discussion about the ancient origins
of human rights, civil rights, and so on:

http://www.global-ethic-now.de/gen-e...chenrechte.php

--
Ed Huntress

"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015
11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex

wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those
'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out
these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

I would question the "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." Endowed? What proof do we have for that
statement? Carved in Tablets of Stone?


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
--
cheers,

John B.

They were on the tablet that Moses dropped.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 21:36:08 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 7:21 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:55:11 -0700, Delvin Benet wrote:

On 7/15/2015 11:49 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

As I explained earlier, rights are an artifact of human imagination.
They exist because we can imagine them, and our existence is better for
imagining and then acknowledging them. As you note, they are not
"granted" by king or any other entity - they are inherent in all people.
They may not always be respected, but that's why we speak of rights
being violated, not having been withdrawn.

I think that you are using a lot of words to say nothing.

You're wrong about that.


We may well
imagine that you have a right to have money and rob the 7-11

Those aren't rights.

We can argue about what rights we actually have, but the idea that
humans imagined the basic idea of rights is inarguable.

Not so.

A great many people "know" that they have few if any "rights". A study
of Chinese society made before the war demonstrated that the peasant
class didn't believe that they were deprived of rights. They felt that
they had no rights. I suggest that the same thing applied to the
Russian peasants prior to the revolution.

In any developing country the peasants feel that they have few if any
"rights" compared to the land owners.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 06:33:59 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015
11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex

wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those
'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out
these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a boon
granted by the King.

I would question the "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." Endowed? What proof do we have for that
statement? Carved in Tablets of Stone?


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
--
cheers,

John B.

They were on the tablet that Moses dropped.

Nope. Moses smashed the first set in anger over the Israelites not
obeying the laws, and had to carve a second set.

--
cheers,

John B.

"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 06:33:59 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 15 Jul 2015
11:28:22 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex

wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not
your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those
'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out
these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights?
I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

As I explained it to a friend we are "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." That Creator can be God, or it can be
your sire and dame. But the rights are intrinsic to you, not a
boon
granted by the King.

I would question the "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." Endowed? What proof do we have for
that
statement? Carved in Tablets of Stone?


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
--
cheers,

John B.

They were on the tablet that Moses dropped.

Nope. Moses smashed the first set in anger over the Israelites not
obeying the laws, and had to carve a second set.

--
cheers,

John B.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I48hr8HhDv0

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 06:33:59 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

another said:
I would question the "endowed by our Creator with
certain unalienable right." Endowed? What proof do we have for that
statement? Carved in Tablets of Stone?


They were on the tablet that Moses dropped.

Hey, I saw that movie! g Long Live Mel Brooks!

--
The business of America is not business. Neither is it war. The business
of America is justice and securing the blessings of liberty.
-- George F. Will

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 09:21:29 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

Because that it the god professed by the three middle east religions.

Why did you pick just the middle east? Its a very large planet indeed.

On Sat, 18 Jul 2015 04:45:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 09:21:29 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:28:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:09:11 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/13/2015 06:55 PM, wrote:
And I say that you have intrinsic rights whether or not your
government respects them.

You have whatever rights you can defend. Where do those 'intrinsic'
rights come from?

From the Creator, as noted in the aforementioned documents.
And yes, I'm prepared to defend those rights.

If the "Creator" is the "God of Abraham", when did he hand out these
rights? Yes, I know that he handed out his laws, but the rights? I
don't seem to find a reference to any "rights".

Why would you assume it to be the "God of Abraham"?

Because that it the god professed by the three middle east religions.

Why did you pick just the middle east? Its a very large planet indeed.

Because the three middle east religions comprise the majority of the
people that assume that "God" gave them "rights".

The Asians, who likely comprise the majority of the earth's
population, certainly do not have any god given rights.
--
cheers,

John B.