Back in the day, the whole idea of going "camping" is to get away from
all that stuff that uses electricity.
If you're not rubbing sticks together to start a fire, you ain't camping ;-)

Yeah. You're right. I can still go for actual hours without checking my email, and still carry a "dumb" phone. My wife would prefer to live like that, but her job makes it impossible. And the kids, well, if they had to go a whole week without Netflix I'm not sure they'd survive!

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:19:49 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:

Right. I know mine is sucking power even when switched off. Where we're going I need to leave the car a fair distance from the tent and will be using a spare battery, mostly without the inverter attached. Still have to work out options for recharging in the morning...

The Honda EU1000i or EU2000i are nice for camping. Big $$$ but also useful to have about if power fails in a storm.
http://powerequipment.honda.com/gene...models/eu1000i

--
PaulS

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 4:45:17 PM UTC+2, PCS wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:19:49 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:

Right. I know mine is sucking power even when switched off. Where we're going I need to leave the car a fair distance from the tent and will be using a spare battery, mostly without the inverter attached. Still have to work out options for recharging in the morning...

The Honda EU1000i or EU2000i are nice for camping. Big $$$ but also useful to have about if power fails in a storm.
http://powerequipment.honda.com/gene...models/eu1000i

--
PaulS

Honda? Dude, I drive a Maserati.

On 10/07/15 14:19, robobass wrote:
I wouldn't run one off a car battery all night away from home because
they consume a fair amount of current internally and you might not be
able to start the engine in the morning.

-jsw
Right. I know mine is sucking power even when switched off. Where we're going I need to leave the car a fair distance from the tent and will be using a spare battery, mostly without the inverter attached. Still have to work out options for recharging in the morning...
You can buy brief case style folding solar panels for just this type of
application. I've seen then sold by Maplin in the UK and on ebay so
expect they'd be easy to find in Germany.

"robobass" wrote in message
...
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 4:45:17 PM UTC+2, PCS wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:19:49 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:

Right. I know mine is sucking power even when switched off. Where
we're going I need to leave the car a fair distance from the tent
and will be using a spare battery, mostly without the inverter
attached. Still have to work out options for recharging in the
morning...

The Honda EU1000i or EU2000i are nice for camping. Big $$$ but also
useful to have about if power fails in a storm.
http://powerequipment.honda.com/gene...models/eu1000i

--
PaulS

Honda? Dude, I drive a Maserati.

=================
My Honda SUV accepts a 12AWG silicone (140C) wire with a 1/4" Faston
in a spare fuse position under the hood, which I use to run
always-live 12V battery power in or out without the shorting risk of
unattended jumper cables.

This displays the voltage and current.
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Batter.../dp/B00EYZS6R6
I put 45A Anderson connectors on its leads and the car +12 and Gnd
because the meter reads current only one way, "Source" to "Load", so
it plugs in reversed when charging the battery.

I know nothing of Maseratis.

-jsw

I know nothing of Maseratis.

-jsw

They've got a pretty sweet minivan. Check them out!

robobass prodded the keyboard with:

I know this is a metalworking site, but there is quite a bit of
expertise on subjects like this here.

I just bought a 200/300Watt 230v inverter. I attached it to a car
battery on the bench (nothing else attached) and plugged in a few
lamps. The output measured 330v with loads of 50 and 150 watts. The
lights did seem brighter, but not excessively so. The voltmeter is a
cheapie, but seems generally accurate. I know that these devices
produce a modified sinewave, and I should expect a different
reading, but I thought the reading should be lower if anything. Is
this inverter a dud, or do I just not know how to measure?

Thanks

The issue is the waveform of the output from the inverter. The meter
is measuring the peak voltage rather than the average over a complete
cycle. You really need to use an oscilloscope to see and measure the
individual points of the modified sinewave form.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

And with the scope you load it to at least 50% of power rating.
That is steady state 50 not a peak or switch on surge...

Many power supplies are designed to be run under load, like the real
world. Some blow up if not loaded. Those are typically the high
current supplies. High voltage supplies are internally loaded.

Martin

On 7/10/2015 3:33 PM, Baron wrote:
robobass prodded the keyboard with:

I know this is a metalworking site, but there is quite a bit of
expertise on subjects like this here.

I just bought a 200/300Watt 230v inverter. I attached it to a car
battery on the bench (nothing else attached) and plugged in a few
lamps. The output measured 330v with loads of 50 and 150 watts. The
lights did seem brighter, but not excessively so. The voltmeter is a
cheapie, but seems generally accurate. I know that these devices
produce a modified sinewave, and I should expect a different
reading, but I thought the reading should be lower if anything. Is
this inverter a dud, or do I just not know how to measure?

Thanks

The issue is the waveform of the output from the inverter. The meter
is measuring the peak voltage rather than the average over a complete
cycle. You really need to use an oscilloscope to see and measure the
individual points of the modified sinewave form.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:01:42 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


I know nothing of Maseratis.

-jsw

They've got a pretty sweet minivan. Check them out!

The Lambo offroader is a sweetie, too.
http://www.lambocars.com/off_road/lm002.html


--
We are always the same age inside.
-- Gertrude Stein

John G writes:


I am amazed no one has suggested using a good old Simpson 260 or
similar ANALOGUE meter and get the real answer.

They do not read RMS either....

Here's a possible idea. Get a lamp, and a light meter.
Measure the brightness of the lamp when run from the line.
Repeat from the inverter.
Compare.

A incandescent lamp does not care what the waveform looks like; its
output is a function of the RMS voltage.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

whit3rd writes:

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 9:29:58 AM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[about odd AC measurements on a DC/AC inverter]

If you have a (possibly sacrificial) way to heat water with the
inverter you could time how long a measured amount of room temperature
water takes to boil on the inverter and on Netzstrom. They should be
pretty close to each other.

Bingo! An electric coffeemaker's brew time for a given water fill is
a better RMS voltage meter than most inexpensive electronic meters.

This is a better idea than mine. Old lab-grade RMS voltmeters
were bolometers; the test voltage heated an element, and you
measured the temperature.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
John G writes:


I am amazed no one has suggested using a good old Simpson 260 or
similar ANALOGUE meter and get the real answer.

They do not read RMS either....

Here's a possible idea. Get a lamp, and a light meter.
Measure the brightness of the lamp when run from the line.
Repeat from the inverter.
Compare.

A incandescent lamp does not care what the waveform looks like; its
output is a function of the RMS voltage.

Here is a simple and quite sensitive way to compare the intensities of
two light sources:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...html#procedure

-jsw

David Lesher prodded the keyboard with:

John G writes:


I am amazed no one has suggested using a good old Simpson 260 or
similar ANALOGUE meter and get the real answer.

They do not read RMS either....

Here's a possible idea. Get a lamp, and a light meter.
Measure the brightness of the lamp when run from the line.
Repeat from the inverter.
Compare.

A incandescent lamp does not care what the waveform looks like; its
output is a function of the RMS voltage.


Actually that is a very good way to measure overall power. Radio hams
used to do just that to measure tramsmitter output.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Baron fired this volley in news:mnrfje$jfn$2@dont-
email.me:

Actually that is a very good way to measure overall power. Radio hams
used to do just that to measure tramsmitter output.

Not only to "measure", but to figure peak 'final stage' tuning. I've tuned
into a "light bulb dummy load" many times.

Of course, the feedline and antenna always behave differently, but it's a
starting place. Did WAC on 40 watts, CW.

Lloyd

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 10:46:17 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Here is a simple and quite sensitive way to compare the intensities of
two light sources:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...html#procedure

-jsw


Thanks. That should work for comparing the light from LED's too.

Dan

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com prodded the
keyboard with:

Baron fired this volley in
news:mnrfje$jfn$2@dont- email.me:

Actually that is a very good way to measure overall power. Radio
hams used to do just that to measure tramsmitter output.

Not only to "measure", but to figure peak 'final stage' tuning.
I've tuned into a "light bulb dummy load" many times.

Of course, the feedline and antenna always behave differently, but
it's a starting place. Did WAC on 40 watts, CW.

Lloyd

Yes I agree that was a method I used for a long time, then I changed
to an RF voltmeter at the antenna. I used the bulb comparison method
to determine power output. I was primerily interested in VHF and UHF
ie above 144Mhz.

73's
--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 04:15:43 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

Trying to think of another way to measure, I attached a small 220v axial fan to the inverter. The pitch of the fan was about a major third higher than when run on the mains, meaning about 25% higher.

Bad inverter then.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 07:45:14 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:19:49 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:

Right. I know mine is sucking power even when switched off. Where we're going I need to leave the car a fair distance from the tent and will be using a spare battery, mostly without the inverter attached. Still have to work out options for recharging in the morning...

The Honda EU1000i or EU2000i are nice for camping. Big $$$ but also useful to have about if power fails in a storm.
http://powerequipment.honda.com/gene...models/eu1000i

Check Craigslist (assuming you are in North America) for that little
genset above. Folks tend to upsize over time and outgrow the little
gensets. That is a very nice genny for camping.

I have an old version, true geny, no inverter, still fairly quiet,
which I use for taking power out to the lake for working on trailers
while the boat is in the water.

For those of you who may not know how to find stuff on Craigslist the
easy way....

www.searchtempest.com

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:14:47 +1000, John G wrote:

wrote :
On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 02:47:20 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I know this is a metalworking site, but there is quite a bit of expertise on
subjects like this here.

I just bought a 200/300Watt 230v inverter. I attached it to a car battery on
the bench (nothing else attached) and plugged in a few lamps. The output
measured 330v with loads of 50 and 150 watts. The lights did seem brighter,
but not excessively so. The voltmeter is a cheapie, but seems generally
accurate. I know that these devices produce a modified sinewave, and I
should expect a different reading, but I thought the reading should be lower
if anything. Is this inverter a dud, or do I just not know how to measure?

Thanks
You should read about 0.7 x the rated voltage on a modified square
wave inverter.

I am amazed no one has suggested using a good old Simpson 260 or
similar ANALOGUE meter and get the real answer.
All this waffle about transformers and peaks and average is typical of
the impractical answers so common in some of the electronics groups.
KISS Keep It Simple Stupid. :-?

(Grin)...kinda makes us old farts wonder how the yout' can find their
asses with either hand.

Gunner, with (5) Simpsons 260s and (2) 280s

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:24:07 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 04:15:43 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

Trying to think of another way to measure, I attached a small 220v axial fan to the inverter. The pitch of the fan was about a major third higher than when run on the mains, meaning about 25% higher.

Bad inverter then.
A square wave will make an insuction motor "sing" differently than a
sine wave of the same eddectivr amplitude.

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015 14:36:27 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:24:07 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 04:15:43 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

Trying to think of another way to measure, I attached a small 220v axial fan to the inverter. The pitch of the fan was about a major third higher than when run on the mains, meaning about 25% higher.

Bad inverter then.
A square wave will make an insuction motor "sing" differently than a
sine wave of the same eddectivr amplitude.

Indeed it will. I had to diagnose a mill yesterday.. client was
complaining about this "singing noise" at about 1200-2000 rpm when the
spindle was running. Quiet as a church at midnite at 6000.

Tweaked the tuning of the VFD just a little bit and got the "singing"
a fair amount quieter..but it never went quiet.

Some motors/vfd combinations will make some noise at different speeds,
very common.

Gunner

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015 16:11:01 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015 14:36:27 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:24:07 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 04:15:43 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

Trying to think of another way to measure, I attached a small 220v axial fan to the inverter. The pitch of the fan was about a major third higher than when run on the mains, meaning about 25% higher.

Bad inverter then.
A square wave will make an insuction motor "sing" differently than a
sine wave of the same eddectivr amplitude.

Indeed it will. I had to diagnose a mill yesterday.. client was
complaining about this "singing noise" at about 1200-2000 rpm when the
spindle was running. Quiet as a church at midnite at 6000.

Tweaked the tuning of the VFD just a little bit and got the "singing"
a fair amount quieter..but it never went quiet.

Some motors/vfd combinations will make some noise at different speeds,
very common.

Gunner
Looks like I need a new keyboard .My old one has forgotten how to
spell - This old Microsoft Natural Kbd is getting stupid on me.

robobass wrote:
On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:10:02 PM UTC+2, mike wrote:
On 7/9/2015 2:47 AM, robobass wrote:
I know this is a metalworking site, but there is quite a bit of expertise on subjects like this here.

I just bought a 200/300Watt 230v inverter. I attached it to a car battery on the bench (nothing else attached) and plugged in a few lamps. The output measured 330v with loads of 50 and 150 watts. The lights did seem brighter, but not excessively so. The voltmeter is a cheapie, but seems generally accurate. I know that these devices produce a modified sinewave, and I should expect a different reading, but I thought the reading should be lower if anything. Is this inverter a dud, or do I just not know how to measure?

Thanks

Probably the latter...
But
since you provided zero information about the inverter,
zero information about the lamps,
zero information about the meter,
It's hard to tell.

That the lamps didn't explode suggests you may not have
330V...maybe...depends...

Well, Have a nice day to you too!
Here is the picture of the inverter.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/SPANNUNGSWANDLER-200W-300W-12V-230V-WECHSELRICHTER-INVERTER-USB-PKW-LKW-BATTERIE-/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/18IAAOSw3ydVhsoL/$_57.JPG
It lists specs:

Eingangsspannung: 12V DC (10-15V)
Ausgangsspanung: 230V (AC) +/- 10%
Effizienz: 85%
optimale Arbeitstemperatur: 5 - 45°C
Kühlungsmethode: Lüfter
Dauerleistung: 200W
Spitzenleistung: 300W

I know it's in German, but it should be clear even if you don't speak it. I don't have like a schematic diagram for it or anything. Bought on Ebay.

The lamps were two 220v 50w halogen spots and a 53w Edison bulb.

The meter is a typical multimeter you get from an electronics shop for under 50 bucks. It measures the mains at 220v.

What specific information do you suggest I provide?


Stop worrying about the meter.

Just take two identical lamp bulbs, run one off the inverter and the
other off a 220 volt ac line and if they appear to be equally bright
then you should be good to go.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.