Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Picture of a broken crankshaft


See this picture of a broken crankshaft:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg

I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.

i
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On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg



They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Gunner
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Ignoramus8881 fired this volley in
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I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.


Single-cylinder tug boat engine?

Lloyd
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On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:


See this picture of a broken crankshaft:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg

I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.

i


Looks too heavy compared to the throw for an engine. Is it off some
kind of compressor or press? Looks like it hasn't been out of service
long, not that rusty.

Pete Keillor
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 06:36:26 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:


See this picture of a broken crankshaft:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg

I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.

i


Looks too heavy compared to the throw for an engine. Is it off some
kind of compressor or press? Looks like it hasn't been out of service
long, not that rusty.

Pete Keillor


That was my reaction, too. Those big engines typically have a long
stroke. This looks more like the crank for a mechanical press.

--
Ed Huntress


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On 6/23/2015 8:15 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 06:36:26 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:


See this picture of a broken crankshaft:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg

I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.

i


Looks too heavy compared to the throw for an engine. Is it off some
kind of compressor or press? Looks like it hasn't been out of service
long, not that rusty.

Pete Keillor


That was my reaction, too. Those big engines typically have a long
stroke. This looks more like the crank for a mechanical press.



+1
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On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg



They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.


Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i
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On 2015-06-23, Pete Keillor wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:


See this picture of a broken crankshaft:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg

I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.

i


Looks too heavy compared to the throw for an engine. Is it off some
kind of compressor or press? Looks like it hasn't been out of service
long, not that rusty.

Pete Keillor


From a punch press
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 06:19:11 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ignoramus8881 fired this volley in
:

I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.


Single-cylinder tug boat engine?

Lloyd



Punch press of some sort from the looks of it.

Gunner
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Gunner Asch fired this volley in
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Punch press of some sort from the looks of it.


Yep, it was. But some of those old 'pancake' engines had short strokes
(high ratios, but short strokes).

I've seen a couple of 36" piston-diameter tug motors with strokes of less
than 10". Flat heads, though, so still good compression ratio.

Lloyd


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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg



They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.


Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i


Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

GUnner


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On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.


Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i


Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?


I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i


Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?


I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....

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Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?


I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly


Can you explain this crystallized metal issue?




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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 23:16:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly


Can you explain this crystallized metal issue?


Blink blink.."metal fatigue"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...557.x/abstract

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CDUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.lbl.gov% 2Fritchie%2FLibrary%2FPDF%2Fmetglass.pdf&ei=OPWJVd PsC8HYtQXWna-gAw&usg=AFQjCNHxG7PXXXWaZci4WLu_SAI4YLl3Vw&sig2=nB 4fC5dbdNAKz0YLu9pwoQ

Etc etc. The broken ends appear to be "crystalized"..actually the
result of microscopic stress cracks..but the term has stuck for a
century or more and is in common use.

Gunner





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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:14:50 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 23:16:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly


Can you explain this crystallized metal issue?


Blink blink.."metal fatigue"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...557.x/abstract

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CDUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.lbl.gov% 2Fritchie%2FLibrary%2FPDF%2Fmetglass.pdf&ei=OPWJVd PsC8HYtQXWna-gAw&usg=AFQjCNHxG7PXXXWaZci4WLu_SAI4YLl3Vw&sig2=nB 4fC5dbdNAKz0YLu9pwoQ

Etc etc. The broken ends appear to be "crystalized"..actually the
result of microscopic stress cracks..but the term has stuck for a
century or more and is in common use.

Gunner



https://books.google.com/books?id=E4...zation&f=false
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"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of
the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair
job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly


Can you explain this crystallized metal issue?


"Crystallized" is an old and incorrect explanation based on the grainy
surface of the break, which follows the existing and usually visible
grain boundaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

However some solid metals do recrystallize over time, on a -much-
smaller scale.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precipitation_hardening

We studied fatigue failure in college but what I learned may be
outdated. Here's a more recent overview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_corrosion_cracking

Recently an ME who was investigating a fatigue failure told me that
stresses below 1/2 of the ultimate tensile strength can be assumed to
not cause fatigue, unless the manufacturing process causes unintended
stress concentrations.

-jsw


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On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?


I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....


I layed such a press with 15k forklifts...

rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....


Thank you for sharing this fun and educational story.

i
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?


I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....


That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 06:36:26 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:


See this picture of a broken crankshaft:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg

I put a standard letter sized document on top to show the scale of
this huge crankshaft.

i


Looks too heavy compared to the throw for an engine. Is it off some
kind of compressor or press? Looks like it hasn't been out of service
long, not that rusty.

Pete Keillor

Looks like a stamping press to me.


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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 20:37:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....


That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...


Thank Crom it was on Hiway 33..not the freeway. Just between Taft and
Maricopa. Its been what...15 yrs now..still hasn't been found.

  #22   Report Post  
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Posts: 2,104
Default Picture of a broken crankshaft

On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i


The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....


That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.
  #23   Report Post  
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Posts: 12,529
Default Picture of a broken crankshaft

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:04:33 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....


That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


We can't let this trick go by without comment. First, if you turn the
bearing to the side while doing that, the gyroscopic effect will
side-load the bearing and likely burn your fingers, unless you
instantly let go, in which case the bearing will run off and hit
something at a very high speed.

If you put your finger through the shaft hole and it side-loads like
that, it may seize and rip off your finger. However, your finger will
have the ride of its life.

Third, if you succeed it getting it to spin up freely, you will,
eventually, learn about the fracture mechanics of hardened 8000-Series
steel, while the outer race explodes in your face.

'Just a caution.

--
Ed Huntress
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 3,115
Default Picture of a broken crankshaft

rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the
driven side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for
20 yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if
they were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is
clear indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up
badly enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift?
That wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full
power ****up. Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I
do not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the
operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair
job for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had
suddenly gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was
found in the street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of
someone's van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged
everything so badly on the press..and the shop wall..and the front
office wall..and the wall outside of the building, and a
motorcycle in the parking lot......that they simply scrapped the
press, moved in a new(er) press, called in the carpenters, tow
trucks and the insurance company (s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....


That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was
taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them,
holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up
to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the
parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to the
concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to take it up .
He did it on a day I was out ...

--
Snag


  #25   Report Post  
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Posts: 12,529
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On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:02:03 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the
driven side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for
20 yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if
they were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is
clear indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up
badly enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift?
That wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full
power ****up. Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I
do not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the
operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair
job for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had
suddenly gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was
found in the street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of
someone's van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged
everything so badly on the press..and the shop wall..and the front
office wall..and the wall outside of the building, and a
motorcycle in the parking lot......that they simply scrapped the
press, moved in a new(er) press, called in the carpenters, tow
trucks and the insurance company (s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....

That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was
taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them,
holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up
to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the
parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to the
concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to take it up .
He did it on a day I was out ...


uh, with all due respect, I think that both of you share some
culpability on that one. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


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Posts: 1,417
Default Picture of a broken crankshaft

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 11:03:10 -0400
Ed Huntress wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:02:03 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:


snip
In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to the
concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to take it up .
He did it on a day I was out ...


uh, with all due respect, I think that both of you share some
culpability on that one. d8-)


I had the corner of a $20 bill (just a corner piece, not the whole
bill) sticking out from under the anti-static mat on my workbench. I'm
sure lots of people looked but ;-)

When I was in high school I brazed wood screws to several coins. They
were screwed into several obvious places where I worked on the farm.
Nobody ever got those up in the few years I was around there...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

  #27   Report Post  
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Posts: 12,529
Default Picture of a broken crankshaft

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 12:54:04 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 11:03:10 -0400
Ed Huntress wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:02:03 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:


snip
In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to the
concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to take it up .
He did it on a day I was out ...


uh, with all due respect, I think that both of you share some
culpability on that one. d8-)


I had the corner of a $20 bill (just a corner piece, not the whole
bill) sticking out from under the anti-static mat on my workbench. I'm
sure lots of people looked but ;-)

When I was in high school I brazed wood screws to several coins. They
were screwed into several obvious places where I worked on the farm.
Nobody ever got those up in the few years I was around there...


So you were one of *those* kids, huh? g

--
Ed Huntress
  #28   Report Post  
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Posts: 1,910
Default Picture of a broken crankshaft

Terry Coombs wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the
driven side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for
20 yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if
they were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is
clear indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up
badly enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift?
That wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full
power ****up. Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I
do not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the
operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair
job for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had
suddenly gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was
found in the street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of
someone's van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged
everything so badly on the press..and the shop wall..and the front
office wall..and the wall outside of the building, and a
motorcycle in the parking lot......that they simply scrapped the
press, moved in a new(er) press, called in the carpenters, tow
trucks and the insurance company (s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....

That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was
taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them,
holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up
to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the
parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to the
concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to take it up .
He did it on a day I was out ...


Ha! that's pretty good.
  #29   Report Post  
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Posts: 2,104
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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:32:25 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:04:33 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....

That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


We can't let this trick go by without comment. First, if you turn the
bearing to the side while doing that, the gyroscopic effect will
side-load the bearing and likely burn your fingers, unless you
instantly let go, in which case the bearing will run off and hit
something at a very high speed.

If you put your finger through the shaft hole and it side-loads like
that, it may seize and rip off your finger. However, your finger will
have the ride of its life.

Third, if you succeed it getting it to spin up freely, you will,
eventually, learn about the fracture mechanics of hardened 8000-Series
steel, while the outer race explodes in your face.

'Just a caution.

--
Ed Huntress


This was all 40-odd (very odd) years ago, and I still have both eyes and all fingers are intact. But yeah, it was pretty nuts, but these things did go several hundred feet before hitting the building across the street.
  #30   Report Post  
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Posts: 2,104
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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 11:02:06 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the
driven side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for
20 yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if
they were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is
clear indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up
badly enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift?
That wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full
power ****up. Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I
do not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the
operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair
job for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had
suddenly gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was
found in the street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of
someone's van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged
everything so badly on the press..and the shop wall..and the front
office wall..and the wall outside of the building, and a
motorcycle in the parking lot......that they simply scrapped the
press, moved in a new(er) press, called in the carpenters, tow
trucks and the insurance company (s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....

That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was
taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them,
holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up
to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the
parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to the
concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to take it up ..
He did it on a day I was out ...

--
Snag


Not often that you'll find me quoting scripture, but...
Leviticus 19:14 : "You shall not curse the deaf nor place a stumbling block before the blind."

A quick summary of the rabbinic interpretation of this verse is:
"It is an admonition not to take advantage of the weak and the helpless or to place temptation in the path of those who may be morally weak."

It's actually pretty interesting reading on basic morality, once you get past the "you shall fear your God - I am your Lord" nonsense.

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/placingstumbling.html


Placing a Stumbling Block Before
the Blind Person:
An In-Depth Analysis

by Hershey H. Friedman, PhD

Professor of Business, Brooklyn College

_________________

(c) 2002 H. H. Friedman
_________________


The Bible states (Leviticus 19:14): "You shall not curse the deaf nor place a stumbling block before the blind; you shall fear your God - I am your Lord." In Hebrew, the sin of placing a stumbling block before a blind person is referred to as lifnei iver lo sitten michshol (before the blind do not place a stumbling block), or succinctly as lifnei iver.

This verse is somewhat perplexing: Why single out blind people for this law? Was placing stumbling blocks before blind people a prevalent practice in ancient times? Furthermore, there are a large number of laws in the Bible that deal with causing injury to others, blind or not. This may explain why the Talmud felt the need to give the verse a more profound meaning. Thus, the word "blind" is interpreted metaphorically to represent any person or group that is unaware, unsuspecting, ignorant, or morally blind, and individuals are prohibited from taking advantage of them or tempting them to do wrong. It is interesting to note that there is a dispute as to whether the verse should be interpreted literally at all. Apparently, some sages felt that there was no need to have a special law against causing blind people to stumble since there are a sufficient number of laws protecting all individuals from malicious harm (see Minchas Chinuch, 232:4). Others believe in the principal that Biblical verses maintain their literal meaning even when the sages use the oral tradition to add additional connotations.

The principle of lifnei iver prohibits one from giving bad advice to another person. Thus, one should not advise another party that it is in his interest to sell his field in order to buy a donkey, when his true intention is to buy the field for himself. By concealing the ulterior motive of his advice, he has violated the principle of lifnei iver (Midrash Sifra, Leviticus 19:14). In fact, the Midrash explains the reason the verse ends with the warning about fearing God: Human beings do not know whether advice proffered to them by friends is good or bad. Often, advice is given with an ulterior motive. Only God knows the true motive of the advice giver.

In addition, the above verse is considered to be a prohibition against helping or causing another to sin. Thus, placing any kind of prohibited temptation in front of someone would not be allowed. For example, providing an individual with a prohibited food, e.g., wine to a Nazirite (who takes a vow which prohibits him from drinking wine, cutting hair, or ritually contaminating himself by coming into contact with the dead), would be a violation of this commandment (Babylonian Talmud, Pesachim 22b). Rabbi Ashi, who owned forests, was permitted to sell wood to heathens who were fire-worshippers only because the majority of purchased wood is used for kindling, not for idolatry (Babylonian Talmud, Nedarim 62b). However, to sell the wood directly for the purpose of allowing pagans to practice their idolatrous practices would be prohibited. Lending someone money without having any witnesses present is also a violation of lifnei iver since it might ultimately tempt the debtor to deny that he or she borrowed any money (Babylonian Talmud, Baba Metzia 75b). If one person lends another money with interest, the borrower and the lender have also violated lifnei iver since each one enables the other to commit the sin of usury (Babylonian Talmud, Bava Metzia 75b). The Talmud (Babylonian Talmud, Moed Katan 17a) also prohibits one from hitting an older son because of lifnei iver. An older son might angrily retaliate and strike his father, which is a very serious sin.

One should not entrust animals to a shepherd, if there is a strong possibility the shepherd will allow them to graze on other people's property (Babylonian Talmud, Bava Metzia 5b). Even purchasing milk, wool, or kids from shepherds was not permitted since they might have stolen these items from the cattle under their care (Babylonian Talmud, Bava Kama 118b).

Selling anything that has the potential of causing harm to others is prohibited. Thus, the Talmud (Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 16a) states: "It is forbidden to sell [idolaters] bears, lions, or anything which may injure the public. One shall not build with them a basilica, a scaffold, a stadium, or a platform" In Talmudic times, wild animals were used in stadiums to kill people for sport; basilicas were used to try people and, if sentenced to death, the defendant was thrown off it. Individuals were also thrown off platforms to kill them. Rebbi owned white mules and was rebuked by Rabbi Pinchas b. Yair for owning such vicious and dangerous animals. He offered to sell them but was told by Rabbi Pinchas that he would then be in violation of lifnei iver (Babylonian Talmud, Chullin 7b).

According to Abaye, the reason for marking graves is to ensure that priests or pilgrims would not inadvertently become ritually unclean (Babylonian Talmud, Moed Katan 5a). When the Temple in Jerusalem was standing, priests and pilgrims bringing sacrifices had to maintain ritual purity. Leaving an unmarked grave that can result in the ritual contamination of priests and pilgrims is a violation of placing the stumbling block -the grave- before the blind, i.e., the priests and pilgrims.

There is a Midrash (Midrash Hagadol, Leviticus 19:14) that states that individuals who "strengthen the hand of sinners" or assist others to commit a misdeed have transgressed the prohibition against "placing a stumbling block before the blind." One might argue that remaining quiet in the face of evil, i.e., not blowing the whistle on iniquities, strengthens the hand of wrongdoers.

Nehama Leibowitz (1983, p. 178), the renowned Bible teacher, offers the widest extension of the law:

"But the Torah teaches us that even by sitting at home doing nothing, by complete passivity and divorcement from society, one cannot shake off responsibility for what is transpiring in the world at large, for the iniquity, violence and evil there. By not protesting, "not marking the graves" and danger spots, you have become responsible for any harm arising therefrom, and have violated the prohibition: "Thou shalt not put a stumbling block before the blind..."

The following are some common business situations that might involve the prohibition of lifnei iver.

(1) Buildings should be made accessible to the handicapped. Many office buildings have been built without ramps and railings and thereby cause the blind and other handicapped to "stumble." There very well may be an obligation on society to provide large-print books, books in Braille, and special schools for the disabled. This is arguably a modern interpretation of the verse but something to be considered.

(2) Accountants and auditors that are not careful with financial statements and thereby mislead others, e.g., investors or creditors, are guilty of lifnei iver. Investors and creditors rely on financial statements and have a right to assume that they are indeed accurate records. Moreover, accountants who purposely "cook the books" are guilty of deception and lifnei iver by helping their clients to sin.

(3) Advertising that is intended to elicit envy or create the need for showy luxury products on the part of the consumer may also be problematic. In the classic medieval ethics (mussar) work, Orchos Tzadikim (Chapter 14: Jealousy), the author notes that jealousy comes from observing what friends own.. We become envious of a friend's garment, food, house, and/or wealth, and envy leads to coveting. Thus, individuals who purposely flaunt wealth in order to arouse the envy of their fellows are guilty of lifnei iver. Sadly, the newspapers are filled with stories of teenagers that are killed for a designer shirt, fancy sneakers, or a gold chain. The Orchos Tzadikim recommends a life of moderation and simplicity so as not to arouse the envy of others.

(4) Running advertisements that are intended to mislead the public are violations of lifnei iver since this is tantamount to providing people with bad advice. Similarly, salespeople or consultants who are asked for advice about products and recommend the item that provides the highest commissions are also guilty of lifnei iver. The individual who possesses the expertise is obligated to provide accurate information and not cause the "blind" client or customer to "stumble" by providing bad information. This would include stockbrokers who recommend risky financial securities in order to generate a large commission.

(5) Bait and switch advertising is a practice in which a retailer promotes an item at an extremely low price (the "bait") in order to attract the customer to the store. When the customer is in the store and attempts to purchase the advertised item, s/he is informed that the item is not available and/or is told that there are better, but "slightly" more expensive, substitutes on hand. This unethical practice is clearly a "stumbling block" to the unknowing customer.

(6) Giving a bribe or kickback to a buyer is a violation of lifnei iver. Buyers are supposed to act impartially on behalf of their employers; kickbacks encourage them to act deceitfully.

(7) Selling products that are dangerous to the public is a violation of lifnei iver. Certainly, selling weapons to criminals would be illegal. Providing cigarettes to minors would certainly be wrong, even if not prohibited by secular law. There are a number of rabbis who feel that smoking itself is a violation of lifnei iver since it harms the innocent through second-hand smoke.

(8) Being a fence and buying stolen goods would be a violation of lifnei iver.

(9) Keeping quiet when wrongs are being committed by an organization is also tantamount to "placing a stumbling block ..."


CONCLUSION

The seemingly simple verse prohibiting the placement of stumbling blocks before the blind is actually a succinct statement encompassing many important rules of ethics and morality. It is an admonition not to take advantage of the weak and the helpless or to place temptation in the path of those who may be morally weak. It is also a call to action demanding that society and people do everything possible help the weak, the vulnerable, and the helpless. It is a fundamental principle of business ethics and is on par with such essential principles as "The stranger who resides with you shall be treated the same as the native-born and you love him as yourself" (Leviticus 19:34) and "loving your fellow human being as yourself" (Leviticus 19: 18).


_____________________________________
Reference

Leibowitz, Nehama (1983). Studies in Vayikra (Leviticus). Jerusalem: World Zionist Organization.


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rangerssuck fired this volley in
:

This was all 40-odd (very odd) years ago, and I still have both eyes
and all fingers are intact. But yeah, it was pretty nuts, but these
things did go several hundred feet before hitting the building across
the street.


Even a 'little one' with a 2' flywheel can f-up a coke machine at 100'
away! Saw that at a transformer factory when I worked in the design lab
there. All we did all day long was 'burn in' prototypes, and characterize
temperature rise and hot resistance. Some "lab".

Lloyd
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rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 11:02:06 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was
taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of
them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning
them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in
the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to
the concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to
take it up . He did it on a day I was out ...

--
Snag


Not often that you'll find me quoting scripture, but...
Leviticus 19:14 : "You shall not curse the deaf nor place a
stumbling block before the blind."

A quick summary of the rabbinic interpretation of this verse is:
"It is an admonition not to take advantage of the weak and the
helpless or to place temptation in the path of those who may be
morally weak."

snipped several hundred lines of Biblical analysis ...

principles as "The stranger who resides with you shall be treated the
same as the native-born and you love him as yourself" (Leviticus
19:34) and "loving your fellow human being as yourself" (Leviticus
19: 18).


_____________________________________
Reference

Leibowitz, Nehama (1983). Studies in Vayikra (Leviticus). Jerusalem:
World Zionist Organization.


All this over a quarter glued to the floor as a joke ? That coin had been
there for at least a month , everybody knew it was there and the joke was
dead - unless somebody that didn't work there came thru . This prick used my
best chisel on purpose , he for some obscure reason made all kinds of
problems for me .

--
Snag


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On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:32:11 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:04:33 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:39:06 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:47:22 -0500, Ignoramus9052
wrote:

On 2015-06-23, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:02:16 -0500, Ignoramus8881
wrote:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/crankshaft.jpg


They abused the **** out of that crank. See the scoring on the driven
side?

No lube there in a long time.

Great observation!

This was from a punch press.

This is how most Chicago people use most equipment, in general.

i

Folks here seem to forget I work on and repair this sort of thing.
Machinery in machine shops Shrug. Its how Ive made my living for 20
yrs.

The folks that owned that press had zero maintainece. Even if they
were paying somebody. Having a crank that badly scored is clear
indication that sooner or later..somebody is gonna **** up badly
enough to bust that same crank.

What happened..die platten bolts break and the platten shift? That
wasnt a "crystalization" break of the crank..but a full power ****up.
Anyone get hurt when it all broke loose?

I have no idea, I simply observed that crankshaft on the ground, I do
not know the story. My guess is not much happened to the operator.

i

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press. It damaged everything so badly
on the press..and the shop wall..and the front office wall..and the
wall outside of the building, and a motorcycle in the parking
lot......that they simply scrapped the press, moved in a new(er)
press, called in the carpenters, tow trucks and the insurance company
(s)......

http://midwestmachy.com/wp-content/u...6/DSC_0012.jpg
Is an example of the type of press that failed....

This is the biggest reason most..most presses today have hydraulic
rams instead of a flywheel. While more complicated...when they fail
catastrophically...they usually stay together....

That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


We can't let this trick go by without comment. First, if you turn the
bearing to the side while doing that, the gyroscopic effect will
side-load the bearing and likely burn your fingers, unless you
instantly let go, in which case the bearing will run off and hit
something at a very high speed.

If you put your finger through the shaft hole and it side-loads like
that, it may seize and rip off your finger. However, your finger will
have the ride of its life.

Third, if you succeed it getting it to spin up freely, you will,
eventually, learn about the fracture mechanics of hardened 8000-Series
steel, while the outer race explodes in your face.

'Just a caution.

Way back when I was cleaning some wheel bearings from a VW Bug. I was
using air to blow them out after cleaning with solvent. I decided to
spin one up. I put it on my finger and spun it up a little, then a
little more, and then decided to see how fast I could get it to spin.
The pitch of the sound coming from the air accelerated bearing rose
higher and higher. Just when it got high enough that I couldn't hear
it the thing exploded. I thought my finger was broken. Pieces of
bearing stuck into the sheetrock. Learned my lesson that day for sure.
Eric
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:07:11 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 20:37:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press.


That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...


Thank Crom it was on Hiway 33..not the freeway. Just between Taft and
Maricopa. Its been what...15 yrs now..still hasn't been found.


Did they ever catch the perp fer littrin'?

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass
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On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 16:55:34 -0700, wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:32:11 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:04:33 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:


In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.


We can't let this trick go by without comment. First, if you turn the
bearing to the side while doing that, the gyroscopic effect will
side-load the bearing and likely burn your fingers, unless you
instantly let go, in which case the bearing will run off and hit
something at a very high speed.

If you put your finger through the shaft hole and it side-loads like
that, it may seize and rip off your finger. However, your finger will
have the ride of its life.


Twist off.


Third, if you succeed it getting it to spin up freely, you will,
eventually, learn about the fracture mechanics of hardened 8000-Series
steel, while the outer race explodes in your face.

'Just a caution.

Way back when I was cleaning some wheel bearings from a VW Bug. I was
using air to blow them out after cleaning with solvent. I decided to
spin one up. I put it on my finger and spun it up a little, then a
little more, and then decided to see how fast I could get it to spin.
The pitch of the sound coming from the air accelerated bearing rose
higher and higher. Just when it got high enough that I couldn't hear
it the thing exploded. I thought my finger was broken. Pieces of
bearing stuck into the sheetrock. Learned my lesson that day for sure.


I'll bet. I'd be more leery of the bearing retainer sheetmetal
shredding (cleanly, or not so) taking all the muscles and ligaments
off the finger as it failed.

--
Find out what people will submit to, and you have found out the
exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
--Frederick Douglass


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On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:39:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:07:11 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 20:37:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

The older machines often had a BIG assed flywheel on that end of the
crank along with the brake. I was called in years ago on a repair job
for a crank that had crystallized and that 8' flywheel had suddenly
gotten free. No one was badly hurt..but the flywheel was found in the
street blocking traffic....embedded in the side of someone's
van...about 400 feet from the press.

That's vaguely reminiscent of the trailer spare tire which got away
while traveling down the freeway in LoCal...


Thank Crom it was on Hiway 33..not the freeway. Just between Taft and
Maricopa. Its been what...15 yrs now..still hasn't been found.


Did they ever catch the perp fer littrin'?


Got to find the evidence first!

(Grin)

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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 11:02:06 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was
taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of
them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning
them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in
the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.

In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to
the concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to
take it up . He did it on a day I was out ...

--
Snag


Not often that you'll find me quoting scripture, but...
Leviticus 19:14 : "You shall not curse the deaf nor place a
stumbling block before the blind."

A quick summary of the rabbinic interpretation of this verse is:
"It is an admonition not to take advantage of the weak and the
helpless or to place temptation in the path of those who may be
morally weak."

snipped several hundred lines of Biblical analysis ...

principles as "The stranger who resides with you shall be treated the
same as the native-born and you love him as yourself" (Leviticus
19:34) and "loving your fellow human being as yourself" (Leviticus
19: 18).


_____________________________________
Reference

Leibowitz, Nehama (1983). Studies in Vayikra (Leviticus). Jerusalem:
World Zionist Organization.


All this over a quarter glued to the floor as a joke ? That coin had been
there for at least a month , everybody knew it was there and the joke was
dead - unless somebody that didn't work there came thru . This prick used my
best chisel on purpose , he for some obscure reason made all kinds of
problems for me .

--
Snag


Sorry - This was one of those things that was banged into my head relentlessly when I was a kid.

The chisel thing makes a very good case for locked toolboxes, which were the norm for all the privately owned tools at every shop where I ever worked. Even non-maliciously, an idiot could not know the difference between a wood chisel and a cold chisel or a screwdriver. Better to keep your stuff out of the reach of idiots. I'm glad it's my shop now, and only people I trust come in here.
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Terry Coombs wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 11:02:06 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-4, Larry Jaques wrote:
In a shop where I worked, a somewhat amusing lunchtime activity was
taking clapped-out bearings, washing all the lube & dirt out of
them, holding the inner race between thumb & index finger, spinning
them up to some insane speed with an air gun & putting them down in
the parking lot. They'd go some pretty impressive distances.

In a (woodworking) shop where I worked , I epoxied a quarter to
the concrete floor . Asshole floor sweeper used my best chisel to
take it up . He did it on a day I was out ...

--
Snag


Not often that you'll find me quoting scripture, but...
Leviticus 19:14 : "You shall not curse the deaf nor place a
stumbling block before the blind."

A quick summary of the rabbinic interpretation of this verse is:
"It is an admonition not to take advantage of the weak and the
helpless or to place temptation in the path of those who may be
morally weak."

snipped several hundred lines of Biblical analysis ...

principles as "The stranger who resides with you shall be treated the
same as the native-born and you love him as yourself" (Leviticus
19:34) and "loving your fellow human being as yourself" (Leviticus
19: 18).


_____________________________________
Reference

Leibowitz, Nehama (1983). Studies in Vayikra (Leviticus). Jerusalem:
World Zionist Organization.


All this over a quarter glued to the floor as a joke ? That coin had been
there for at least a month , everybody knew it was there and the joke was
dead - unless somebody that didn't work there came thru . This prick used my
best chisel on purpose , he for some obscure reason made all kinds of
problems for me .


Maybe the sweeper took as much pride in his work as you did with your
tools.

It's still an amusing story.

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