Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.
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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman
wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.


I've made a number of springs from music wire and they seem to work
pretty well. and yes, a bit more generous radius on the bends will
probably last longer.

I would think that you could bend 3/16" by hand, or perhaps a couple
of pairs of pliers, so a fancy jig shouldn't be necessary, and I
wouldn't hammer on the bends as it might work harden then even more
and could cause them to fail.
--
cheers,

John B.

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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

"John B." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman
wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some
advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an
angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm)
from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this
sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal
and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.


I've made a number of springs from music wire and they seem to work
pretty well. and yes, a bit more generous radius on the bends will
probably last longer.

I would think that you could bend 3/16" by hand, or perhaps a couple
of pairs of pliers, so a fancy jig shouldn't be necessary, and I
wouldn't hammer on the bends as it might work harden then even more
and could cause them to fail.
--
cheers,

John B.



3/16" steel welding rod can be bent by hand, but the work hardening at
the bend stiffens it there and causes the whole piece to curve rather
than allowing a tight localized radius. When I need a tight U bend
with straight legs I have to rubber-hammer the rod around a mandrel.

AFAIK music wire is hardened by cold drawing and doesn't respond to
heat treating as well as you might like.

-jsw


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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman
wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.


Piano wire will be fine, and you can cold bend it as long as you don't
try for too sharp a radius and avoid nicking or dinging the wire. I'd
avoid hammering, if possible. Stress relieving the bends will improve
the life of the spring. See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf

Keep in mind that the stiffness of your spring will vary with the 4th
power of the diameter. The 5/32 wire will be 1/2 the stiffness of the
original, and the 3/16 25% stiffer.

--
Ned Simmons
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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman
wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.


As Jim and John said, leave as large a radius as you can. As strong as
it is, music wire will take a surprisingly sharp bend without
breaking, but it's still a very hard material and it has its limits.

It's also hard to predict. The standards for music wire are that it
has a maximum diameter of 1/8 inch, to begin with. Your thicker wire
is the same material, most likely, but its strength will not be as
high as the smaller diameters. Still, it's strong material. In very
small diameters, its ultimate tensile strength ranges well over
200,000 psi -- even close to 300,000 psi. (I'll leave it to you to
convert it to GPa). In larger diameters, that falls off to just over
100,000 psi. Hard-drawing has a greater effect with smaller diameters.

Just for reference, genuine music wire is hard-drawn, plain-carbon
wire. But it's not a standard grade. The carbon content may vary
between 0.95% and 1.25%. It's off the high end of the scale, compared
to regular, plain-carbon steel.

Because of the variations, and because its original purpose does not
involve making sharp bend that require strength, model aircraft
builders and others who use it have to experiment a bit to make sure
it will work in their applications. You'll have no problem using it
for a torsion spring, but, if you can, make some test bends and see
how they break, by working them back a forth a bit.

Good luck!

--
Ed Huntress


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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On 6/19/2015 8:52 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
.... See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf
...


That doesn't load for me. But I have a new Firefox version. Anyone
else have a problem?

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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 09:13:44 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 6/19/2015 8:52 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
... See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf
...


That doesn't load for me. But I have a new Firefox version. Anyone
else have a problem?


No problem here. I'm using the latest Firefox, too.

But the problem may be your Acrobat reader, which Firefox links to for
downloading PDFs. Try just downloading the file and opening it with
your Acrobat reader.

BTW, I'm using the full version of Acrobat Pro DC, but the free reader
should handle it as well.

It's worth the effort. It's a great reference.

--
Ed Huntress
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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 6/19/2015 8:52 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
... See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf
...


That doesn't load for me. But I have a new Firefox version. Anyone
else have a problem?


Loaded fine for me using FF . Lots of good info there Ned ! I bookmarked it
in my metalworking folder ...

--
Snag


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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
On 6/19/2015 8:52 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
... See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf
...


That doesn't load for me. But I have a new Firefox version. Anyone
else have a problem?


It loads for me in XP + IE8 and Firefox 28, both using Foxit 6 to view
the .pdf.

I don't have up-to-date antivirus on a Windows 7 + Acrobat computer to
try it.

-jsw


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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some
advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


What everyone else has said, except that to bend it I'd put it in a vice,
pointing straight up, with a couple of bits of 1/16" thick soft aluminum
on the bend side to act as a sacrificial one-time wire bending tool.
Bending it down onto the aluminum (instead of across the sharp jaw of the
vice) should give you a reasonable radius.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some
advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but
it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an
angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm)
from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this
sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of
metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave
a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


What everyone else has said, except that to bend it I'd put it in a
vice,
pointing straight up, with a couple of bits of 1/16" thick soft
aluminum
on the bend side to act as a sacrificial one-time wire bending tool.
Bending it down onto the aluminum (instead of across the sharp jaw
of the
vice) should give you a reasonable radius.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com



If I didn't have conical mandrels I'd turn a groove of the desired
inside radius in a piece of scrap from the cutoff bin, clamp it
upright in the vise with the groove just above the jaws, and use pipe
(or padded Vise-Grips) as handles to bend the rod as far as it will
stay tight in the groove. When the back side begins to pull out I'd
rotate it 45 degrees in the vise to catch the back side under the jaw,
and continue.

Take it out before it's done and check the bend radius. You may want
to turn the groove smaller by the amount of springback.

-jsw


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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 08:01:44 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman
wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some
advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an
angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm)
from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this
sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal
and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.


I've made a number of springs from music wire and they seem to work
pretty well. and yes, a bit more generous radius on the bends will
probably last longer.

I would think that you could bend 3/16" by hand, or perhaps a couple
of pairs of pliers, so a fancy jig shouldn't be necessary, and I
wouldn't hammer on the bends as it might work harden then even more
and could cause them to fail.
--
cheers,

John B.



3/16" steel welding rod can be bent by hand, but the work hardening at
the bend stiffens it there and causes the whole piece to curve rather
than allowing a tight localized radius. When I need a tight U bend
with straight legs I have to rubber-hammer the rod around a mandrel.

AFAIK music wire is hardened by cold drawing and doesn't respond to
heat treating as well as you might like.

-jsw


Will, firstly, the guy was asking about 90 degree bends in 3/16" rod
which if you cannot make with your bare hands and maybe a couple of
pairs of pliers sort of implies that there is something wrong with
you.

Out of curiosity I just went out to the shop and bent a piece of 5.5
mm (0.216") rod and had no problem what so ever bending a nice 90
degree bend with about a 1/4" radius.

--
cheers,

John B.

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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

I have a Z bend for those piano wire wires we used in RC flying.
It was used cold and pressed a z with square corners. So rounds
especially using a mandrel would be nicely done.
Martin

On 6/19/2015 6:31 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman
wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.


I've made a number of springs from music wire and they seem to work
pretty well. and yes, a bit more generous radius on the bends will
probably last longer.

I would think that you could bend 3/16" by hand, or perhaps a couple
of pairs of pliers, so a fancy jig shouldn't be necessary, and I
wouldn't hammer on the bends as it might work harden then even more
and could cause them to fail.
--
cheers,

John B.

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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

It downloaded for me. It came up in my other terminal.
Might have to add an app.

I have the new version and it blew my passwords and Usenet
files away. My password was a large file. Didn't like large.

Martin

On 6/19/2015 8:13 AM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 6/19/2015 8:52 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
... See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf
...


That doesn't load for me. But I have a new Firefox version. Anyone
else have a problem?

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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On 2015-06-19, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 6/19/2015 8:52 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
... See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf
...


That doesn't load for me. But I have a new Firefox version. Anyone
else have a problem?


No problem here, with an older Firefox running on a Sun Solaris
system. If that can do it, pretty much anything should be able to do
it.

But -- an attempt to get it with "wget" came back with
"Forbidden". :-)

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On 19-Jun-15 6:15 PM, Techman wrote:
I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.



Many thanks for all the useful replies and ideas - as usual RCM helped
me out of a bind!


I ended up buying some 4mm and 4.76mm piano wire from the hobby shop.
The original spring was 4.5mm. For a one off purchase it was cheap at $5
for 36" length.

I filed a curve on my aluminium soft jaws and bent it in the vice using
a length of tube slipped over the rod for leverage. It was pretty tough
stuff. I had to fine tune the last few degrees of bend with a rubber
mallet. I ended up with a inside bend radius of about 1/8", nice and
smooth unlike the original harsh 90 bend.


To stress relieve it I put it in the oven for an hour at 240 degrees C
as per the spring document Ned linked to. That is a GREAT document -
thanks Ned!

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf

I made a few and ended up using the 4mm one, as suggested the spring
strength was quite noticeably down on the 4.5mm original but still
plenty for the application.

I put it through about 50 cycles by hand and it didn't break which was a
good sign. I'll have to see how it goes. I might grab another length of
the 4mm stuff and make up a replacement for next time as I think the
4.75mm stuff is going to put too much load on other things.

Thanks again guys, much appreciated.
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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 20:59:45 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

I have a Z bend for those piano wire wires we used in RC flying.
It was used cold and pressed a z with square corners. So rounds
especially using a mandrel would be nicely done.
Martin

I used to build "U" control planes and as I remember it I bent nearly
all of the wire - landing gars, push-pull rods, etc., by hand or
perhaps with a pair of pliers. If you use two pair of pliers the
distance between then tends to govern the radius of the curve.

On 6/19/2015 6:31 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:15:00 +0800, Techman
wrote:

I need to replace a broken light duty torsion spring and need some advice.

It's broken right at the bend, I may be able to buy a new one but it
will have to come from the UK to Australia and I need it ASAP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(1).JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ring%20(2).JPG


The spring returns an aluminum flap through and rotates through an angle
of around 90°.
The wire diameter is 4.5mm and the overall length of the spring is
around 24".


I can get some 3/16" diameter "piano wire" (4.76mm) or 5/32" (4mm) from
my local hobby shop. Will piano wire work OK as a spring in this sort of
application?


Will I have trouble cold bending the ends?

I was thinking of drilling a 5mm hole through a heavy piece of metal and
using pipe, then a hammer, applying the bend. I would try to leave a
more generous radius than the on the original.

Thoughts?


Thanks guys.


I've made a number of springs from music wire and they seem to work
pretty well. and yes, a bit more generous radius on the bends will
probably last longer.

I would think that you could bend 3/16" by hand, or perhaps a couple
of pairs of pliers, so a fancy jig shouldn't be necessary, and I
wouldn't hammer on the bends as it might work harden then even more
and could cause them to fail.
--
cheers,

John B.

--
cheers,

John B.

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Default Advice - torsion spring using piano wire?

The prior version used a GUI tool to show protected stuff and
parameters... and passwords.

Now passwords is a small part of a web page that is looking at the
data. The new version didn't like my 48k size and trashed it.
I had printouts to help on most stuff. I have another computer in the
shop that has most of it - only new computer lost the new stuff.
38.05 is the one that wiped passwords and news accounts, not part of
Firefox. They take an odd area - many are reporting and they were
giving some help and then killed the help section altogether. Don't
like getting bad news with little ability to help.

What bugs me is where is the import / export tool. Get from and
save for another. The form of the data base is different, but
apparently it converts but only a set number...??

Martin

On 6/19/2015 10:25 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-06-19, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 6/19/2015 8:52 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
... See the "Finishing" section of this document:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf
...


That doesn't load for me. But I have a new Firefox version. Anyone
else have a problem?


No problem here, with an older Firefox running on a Sun Solaris
system. If that can do it, pretty much anything should be able to do
it.

But -- an attempt to get it with "wget" came back with
"Forbidden". :-)

Good Luck,
DoN.

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