Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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That's the reduction ratio of the unit I'm building for an X axis power
feed for my mill . Input will be an HF 18v motor from a drill powered by an
18volt wall wart thru a PWM controller for speed control . Gearset is
loosely copied from a Logan reduction gearset in my QCGB . 16t input gear
drives a 48t which is pinned to another 16t which drives another 48 . Input
and output are concentric , I'll be copying the drive dogs on the leadscrews
for both in and output . So far I have the gears made and sideplates
machined . I still need to make an axle and bushings for the 16/48 pinned
pair , bushings all 'round , and the input and output shafts .
I'm using 20DP gears cut from a JD tractor (from my 317 , badly worn)
axle for the small ones and from a piece of 4140-type stock that used to be
shipping bracing for a 5 x 12 foot CNC router table . Side plates are 1/2"
aluminum stock , holes drilled then final machined with a shop-made boring
head . In a little while I'll be out in the shop getting started on the
in-out shafts and bushings .
This will give me enough low speed torque for smooth slow feeds , with the
top speed at 100RPM's at the output - I tried this motor directly coupled ,
but low speeds were jerky . Not all that fast , but a lot less work that
cranking tha wheel by hand . The big benefit here will be much more
uniformity in feed speeds and therefor much better surface finishes . Final
configuration for controls hasn't been decided yet , but I do have
everything but a DPDT reversing switch in hand . Coming next will be a belt
driven feed for the Z axis , for those times when I use the boring head and
need a very smooth finish .
--
Snag


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"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in
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Coming next will be a belt
driven feed for the Z axis , for those times when I use the boring
head and need a very smooth finish .


You can waste SO much time not using good servo drives, and just doing it
'right' the first time!

You'll regret this strategy... but it'll come late, when you realize that
the motor won't last long enough to serve you well. And then you'll be
'stuck' with a non-standard PWM system that both doesn't deliver AND will
make you replace it.


Lloyd
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Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in
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Coming next will be a belt
driven feed for the Z axis , for those times when I use the boring
head and need a very smooth finish .


You can waste SO much time not using good servo drives, and just
doing it 'right' the first time!

You'll regret this strategy... but it'll come late, when you realize
that the motor won't last long enough to serve you well. And then
you'll be 'stuck' with a non-standard PWM system that both doesn't
deliver AND will make you replace it.


Lloyd


Ah , but I will have the pleasure of having done it myself . Lloyd , this
ain't a production shop , and probably 90% of the time I'm going to be
cranking those handles manually . This is for those times that I need some
measure of uniformity .
And the Z will probably be done using one of the stepper motors I have .
They're not powerful enough for the X or Y , but should work OK for the Z -
especially with 2:1 or 3:1 pulley ratios .
--
Snag
Photos are posted at
http://s991.photobucket.com/user/Sna...?sort=3&page=1
There's also a couple of pictures of my Hole's Creek ball turner and the
boring head I made in the Shop Tooling album .


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"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in news:ml2gce$oi0$1
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Ah , but I will have the pleasure of having done it myself


Non-sequitor. I've built CNC systems from 'proper components' myself, and
you could, too. And it ultimately costs less than the troubles you'll have
with cobbled-up components.

"Do-it-yourself" has never intended to mean, "doing it the cheapest way
possible, without regard to results".

Lloyd
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170...
"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in news:ml2gce$oi0$1
@dont-email.me:

Ah , but I will have the pleasure of having done it myself


Non-sequitor. I've built CNC systems from 'proper components' myself, and
you could, too. And it ultimately costs less than the troubles you'll
have
with cobbled-up components.

"Do-it-yourself" has never intended to mean, "doing it the cheapest way
possible, without regard to results".

Lloyd


I kinda agree with Lloyd on this one. Better to have it and not need it
then to need it and not have it.





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On Sunday, June 7, 2015 at 7:47:31 PM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:


I kinda agree with Lloyd on this one. Better to have it and not need it
then to need it and not have it.


And I agree with Terry. He really does not need power feeds*so there is no needing it and not having it. And building power feeds is every bit as much fun as building say a steam engine.

Dan
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On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:31:20 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in news:ml2gce$oi0$1
:

Ah , but I will have the pleasure of having done it myself


Non-sequitor. I've built CNC systems from 'proper components' myself, and
you could, too. And it ultimately costs less than the troubles you'll have
with cobbled-up components.

"Do-it-yourself" has never intended to mean, "doing it the cheapest way
possible, without regard to results".

Lloyd


Lloyd is speaking some truth there...indeed.

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Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:31:20 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in
news:ml2gce$oi0$1 @dont-email.me:

Ah , but I will have the pleasure of having done it myself


Non-sequitor. I've built CNC systems from 'proper components'
myself, and you could, too. And it ultimately costs less than the
troubles you'll have with cobbled-up components.

"Do-it-yourself" has never intended to mean, "doing it the cheapest
way possible, without regard to results".

Lloyd


Lloyd is speaking some truth there...indeed.


Who said anything about CNC ? I'm just trying to get a decent finish with
a face mill . If CNC is in my future , it won't be with cobbled components .
Ballscrews , servos , all kinds of things involved in building an integrated
system - and that ain't happenin' with what I have to work with AT THIS TIME
.. What I'm building will fulfill a need that *I* have , whether or not if
fills a need YOU have is irrelevant.

--
Snag


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Gunner Asch on Sun, 07 Jun 2015 19:08:01 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:31:20 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in news:ml2gce$oi0$1
:

Ah , but I will have the pleasure of having done it myself


Non-sequitor. I've built CNC systems from 'proper components' myself, and
you could, too. And it ultimately costs less than the troubles you'll have
with cobbled-up components.

"Do-it-yourself" has never intended to mean, "doing it the cheapest way
possible, without regard to results".

Lloyd


Lloyd is speaking some truth there...indeed.


DIY often means "We could have bought it for less ... but it was
the process which was why we did it."

Friend observed that, really, what he has invested in the time,
travel and wandering around - he could have gotten a job flipping
burgers and bought the stuff (he was getting at garage sales) new, and
still come out ahead. But that wasn't why he was out shopping the
yard sales in the first place.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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On 6/7/2015 11:42 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
DIY often means "We could have bought it for less ... but it was
the process which was why we did it."
...


I heartily agree! Not only the process, but the continuing satisfaction
when using the product of our own doing. However ... when the results
of doing it ourselves are not what we expected, there will be
disappointment; directly proportional to the time, effort and care that
we put into the project. Snag is putting a lot of care into his project
and there is the potential for a lot of disappointment.

I see the drill motor & PWM drive as the weak link, especially regarding
constancy of feed. For a powered feed on my lathe, I used a servo amp
with tach feedback and it's amazingly constant:
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/ServoPowerFeed.pdf
Buying the servo amp might be less satisfying than building your own PWM
drive, but I still get a REAL NICE feeling every time I use my power feed.

Bob


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Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
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I see the drill motor & PWM drive as the weak link, especially
regarding constancy of feed. For a powered feed on my lathe, I used a
servo amp with tach feedback and it's amazingly constant:
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/ServoPowerFeed.pdf
Buying the servo amp might be less satisfying than building your own
PWM drive, but I still get a REAL NICE feeling every time I use my
power feed.


That was my whole point. It's not just "not quite the best solution", it's
a cobbled-up thing bound to disappoint fairly soon after implementation.

Lloyd
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Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 6/7/2015 11:42 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
DIY often means "We could have bought it for less ... but it was
the process which was why we did it."
...


I heartily agree! Not only the process, but the continuing
satisfaction when using the product of our own doing. However ...
when the results of doing it ourselves are not what we expected, there
will be
disappointment; directly proportional to the time, effort and care
that we put into the project. Snag is putting a lot of care into his
project and there is the potential for a lot of disappointment.

I see the drill motor & PWM drive as the weak link, especially
regarding constancy of feed. For a powered feed on my lathe, I used
a servo amp with tach feedback and it's amazingly constant:
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/ServoPowerFeed.pdf
Buying the servo amp might be less satisfying than building your own
PWM drive, but I still get a REAL NICE feeling every time I use my
power feed.
Bob


The way this is designed , I can change the power source if the need
arises - and I did consider using one of the stepper motors I have , but
they're not powerful enough for this task even with the torque
multiplication from the reduction gearing . Several pieces were cast in my
aluminum foundry ... if I could have found a "real" power feed unit for less
than a quarter of the cost of the mill itself , I would have bought one . I
toyed with using a wiper motor , but the ones I have available all have
stripped worm drives .
--
Snag
And hey , if it doesn't work out as well as I want ,
I still have a really nice reduction gear set .


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Bob Engelhardt on Mon, 08 Jun 2015
09:08:53 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 6/7/2015 11:42 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
DIY often means "We could have bought it for less ... but it was
the process which was why we did it."
...


I heartily agree! Not only the process, but the continuing satisfaction
when using the product of our own doing. However ... when the results
of doing it ourselves are not what we expected, there will be
disappointment; directly proportional to the time, effort and care that
we put into the project. Snag is putting a lot of care into his project
and there is the potential for a lot of disappointment.


"I'm not sure what I wanted to do, but this wasn't it." said
after renting a tractor for some back yard landscaping.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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On Sunday, June 7, 2015 at 3:49:13 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
That's the reduction ratio of the unit I'm building for an X axis power
feed for my mill .
Snag


I looked through the scrap yard today and found two motors with gear reductions that might work well for that. They were from battery powered wheel chairs. They work, but are noisy. They have a lever to disconnect the drive.

So maybe you could check with medical supply / repair places and find something in their scrap that would work well.

Dan
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On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:43:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Baron wrote:
prodded the keyboard with:

On Sunday, June 7, 2015 at 3:49:13 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
That's the reduction ratio of the unit I'm building for an X axis
power feed for my mill .
Snag

I looked through the scrap yard today and found two motors with
gear reductions that might work well for that. They were from
battery powered wheel chairs. They work, but are noisy. They have a
lever to disconnect the drive.

So maybe you could check with medical supply / repair places and
find something in their scrap that would work well.

Dan


What on earth is wrong with a normal wiper motor ? I have now built
two and they work great ! Tumbler reverse, centre off and variable
speed.


I have a couple of wiper motors , but the worm gear is messed up in both .

The worm or the worm gear? In either case maybe you would like to try
making your own worm and worm gear. It is actually pretty easy, I know
because I have done it. What you need is a high spiral tap that is the
diameter you want for the worm. Then you can use a piece of a bolt for
the worm or you can single point one. Then for the worm gear, also
known as a worm wheel, you decide how many teeth you want and using
this number and the pitch of the worm and pi you can determine the OD
of the worm gear. Make a disc the proper OD and thickness with a hole
through it. Then make a mount for the lathe to hold the gear blank
horizontal and use the hole for an axle. Put the tap in a collet or
the chuck and make sure it runs true. Adjust the center height of the
disc so that it is on the spindle center. With the tap spinning
present the disc to the tap and start feeding in. The high spiral type
of flute on the tap will make sure that the tap is always engaged with
the work and so will pull the worm gear around as it cuts. So the tap
acts as a hob. When I made my worm and worm gear sets I first used
some all-thread to see if it would work. It did so I made worms from
O-1 and heat treated them. I made the worm gears out of bronze.. They
worked quite well.
Eric
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wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:43:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"

wrote:

Baron wrote:
prodded the keyboard with:

On Sunday, June 7, 2015 at 3:49:13 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
That's the reduction ratio of the unit I'm building for an X
axis
power feed for my mill .
Snag

I looked through the scrap yard today and found two motors with
gear reductions that might work well for that. They were from
battery powered wheel chairs. They work, but are noisy. They
have a
lever to disconnect the drive.

So maybe you could check with medical supply / repair places and
find something in their scrap that would work well.

Dan

What on earth is wrong with a normal wiper motor ? I have now
built
two and they work great ! Tumbler reverse, centre off and
variable
speed.


I have a couple of wiper motors , but the worm gear is messed up
in both .

The worm or the worm gear? In either case maybe you would like to
try
making your own worm and worm gear. It is actually pretty easy, I
know
because I have done it. What you need is a high spiral tap that is
the
diameter you want for the worm. Then you can use a piece of a bolt
for
the worm or you can single point one. Then for the worm gear, also
known as a worm wheel, you decide how many teeth you want and using
this number and the pitch of the worm and pi you can determine the
OD
of the worm gear. Make a disc the proper OD and thickness with a
hole
through it. Then make a mount for the lathe to hold the gear blank
horizontal and use the hole for an axle. Put the tap in a collet or
the chuck and make sure it runs true. Adjust the center height of
the
disc so that it is on the spindle center. With the tap spinning
present the disc to the tap and start feeding in. The high spiral
type
of flute on the tap will make sure that the tap is always engaged
with
the work and so will pull the worm gear around as it cuts. So the
tap
acts as a hob. When I made my worm and worm gear sets I first used
some all-thread to see if it would work. It did so I made worms from
O-1 and heat treated them. I made the worm gears out of bronze..
They
worked quite well.
Eric


All that instead of another junkyard motor?



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