Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old June 4th 15, 08:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:57:17 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.

Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator.
Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these:
http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/


Supposedly around 800F, which isn't too far below the
(alloy-dependent) melting point. Aluminum melts without glowing red,
so don't heat it much past that vanishing point or you'll reach
another one.

I'd practice on a piece of 6061 sheet first, especially if you don't
have hands-on experience forming metals that work-harden and crack.

-jsw


Chances are that the case was drawn/stamped in a single op , if so
work-hardening shouldn't be a problem .


Macbooks built since 2008 are made of extruded blocks of
"aircraft-quality" aluminum. In the consumer world, at least among
quality manufacturers, that generally means any heat-treatable grade.
I'm told it's 6061, but my source wouldn't be able to tell that from
beverage-can aluminum.

The extruded billet is machined. I don't know how they finish it, but
it's alleged to be "hard-anodized." That sounds funny, because hard
anodizing (which is no harder than regular anodizing, only thicker)
generally is dull and gray. Macbooks look pretty bright.

Anyway, they're apparently not stamped, but rather 3D milled. That
shouldn't influence knocking out a dent, but if the aluminum is any
heat-treatable grade, and hard, it could crack if you don't anodize it
first.

Frankly, doing that, if one isn't comfortable with heat treating,
could be problematic.

One last point: If the OP decides to go for it, and finds a way to
anneal that corner, make sure he finishes knocking out the dent within
a day or so. 6061, if that's what it is, starts to age-harden pretty
quickly.

--
Ed Huntress

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Old June 4th 15, 08:52 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 223
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 14:34:34 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:57:17 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.

Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator.
Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these:
http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/

Supposedly around 800F, which isn't too far below the
(alloy-dependent) melting point. Aluminum melts without glowing red,
so don't heat it much past that vanishing point or you'll reach
another one.

I'd practice on a piece of 6061 sheet first, especially if you don't
have hands-on experience forming metals that work-harden and crack.

-jsw


Chances are that the case was drawn/stamped in a single op , if so
work-hardening shouldn't be a problem .


Macbooks built since 2008 are made of extruded blocks of
"aircraft-quality" aluminum. In the consumer world, at least among
quality manufacturers, that generally means any heat-treatable grade.
I'm told it's 6061, but my source wouldn't be able to tell that from
beverage-can aluminum.

The extruded billet is machined. I don't know how they finish it, but
it's alleged to be "hard-anodized." That sounds funny, because hard
anodizing (which is no harder than regular anodizing, only thicker)
generally is dull and gray. Macbooks look pretty bright.

Anyway, they're apparently not stamped, but rather 3D milled. That
shouldn't influence knocking out a dent, but if the aluminum is any
heat-treatable grade, and hard, it could crack if you don't anodize it
first.

Frankly, doing that, if one isn't comfortable with heat treating, could
be problematic.

One last point: If the OP decides to go for it, and finds a way to
anneal that corner, make sure he finishes knocking out the dent within a
day or so. 6061, if that's what it is, starts to age-harden pretty
quickly.


From the picture it's stamped, not extruded and machined.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Old June 4th 15, 09:01 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,540
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:52:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 14:34:34 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:57:17 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.

Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator.
Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these:
http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/

Supposedly around 800F, which isn't too far below the
(alloy-dependent) melting point. Aluminum melts without glowing red,
so don't heat it much past that vanishing point or you'll reach
another one.

I'd practice on a piece of 6061 sheet first, especially if you don't
have hands-on experience forming metals that work-harden and crack.

-jsw

Chances are that the case was drawn/stamped in a single op , if so
work-hardening shouldn't be a problem .


Macbooks built since 2008 are made of extruded blocks of
"aircraft-quality" aluminum. In the consumer world, at least among
quality manufacturers, that generally means any heat-treatable grade.
I'm told it's 6061, but my source wouldn't be able to tell that from
beverage-can aluminum.

The extruded billet is machined. I don't know how they finish it, but
it's alleged to be "hard-anodized." That sounds funny, because hard
anodizing (which is no harder than regular anodizing, only thicker)
generally is dull and gray. Macbooks look pretty bright.

Anyway, they're apparently not stamped, but rather 3D milled. That
shouldn't influence knocking out a dent, but if the aluminum is any
heat-treatable grade, and hard, it could crack if you don't anodize it
first.

Frankly, doing that, if one isn't comfortable with heat treating, could
be problematic.

One last point: If the OP decides to go for it, and finds a way to
anneal that corner, make sure he finishes knocking out the dent within a
day or so. 6061, if that's what it is, starts to age-harden pretty
quickly.


From the picture it's stamped, not extruded and machined.


Eh, I didn't look at the picture. Let's see...yeah, that looks like
it's stamped. Apparently they machined them for a while after 2008,
then went to back-extrusion (not actually "stamping," but more like
soda cans and brass firearm cartridges are made). I don't know when
that happened.

Anyway, stamped or back-extruded, or even machined, the final
properties are going to be roughly the same. Age-hardening will
overwhelm any work-hardening effects.

--
Ed Huntress
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Old June 4th 15, 09:17 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 4,632
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
news
t could crack if you don't anodize it



Very likely will crack even if you DO anodize it.

I'd be more prone to tell him to anneal it.

Lloyd
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Old June 4th 15, 09:33 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,540
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 14:17:41 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
news
t could crack if you don't anodize it



Very likely will crack even if you DO anodize it.

I'd be more prone to tell him to anneal it.


Aack! I meant anneal, not anodize. Great, now I'm really screwing him
up, I'm sure.

These seemingly simple little things can really get messy. If it's
6061, no matter what he does, he's going to have a range of different
hardnesses across the dent a week or two after he knocks it out. That
shouldn't matter at all in this job, but it will make a big difference
if he anneals it and then lets it sit for a week before he pokes the
dent out.

Here's something for those with a general shop interest, although it
doesn't apply to the OP's question. With 6000 or 2000 Series
aluminums, you can anneal them, and they will never harden. But raise
the temperature a bit to the "solution" stage, and they'll naturally
age harden. 6061 will harden to T3, just sitting there. I think that
2024 is in the same range. And if you anneal with a torch, you're very
likely to hit the solution temperature in some part of the job.

Where hardness changes, you have a weak spot. Again, that should mean
nothing in this case, but it could matter on another project. Heat
treat aluminum with care. It doesn't behave at all like steel.
--
Ed Huntress


Lloyd



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Old June 5th 15, 12:58 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1,669
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:57:17 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.
Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator.
Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these:
http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/
Supposedly around 800F, which isn't too far below the
(alloy-dependent) melting point. Aluminum melts without glowing red,
so don't heat it much past that vanishing point or you'll reach
another one.

I'd practice on a piece of 6061 sheet first, especially if you don't
have hands-on experience forming metals that work-harden and crack.

-jsw

Chances are that the case was drawn/stamped in a single op , if so
work-hardening shouldn't be a problem .


Macbooks built since 2008 are made of extruded blocks of
"aircraft-quality" aluminum. In the consumer world, at least among
quality manufacturers, that generally means any heat-treatable grade.
I'm told it's 6061, but my source wouldn't be able to tell that from
beverage-can aluminum.


6061 is correct. Milled from a single billet because it allows for
mounting points and standoffs to be machined without adding material.
Plus they are heat treated to make them stronger and stiffer.


The extruded billet is machined. I don't know how they finish it, but
it's alleged to be "hard-anodized." That sounds funny, because hard
anodizing (which is no harder than regular anodizing, only thicker)
generally is dull and gray. Macbooks look pretty bright.


Type 3 anodized, with a decorative second treatment.


Anyway, they're apparently not stamped, but rather 3D milled. That
shouldn't influence knocking out a dent, but if the aluminum is any
heat-treatable grade, and hard, it could crack if you don't anodize it
first.


Anneal yes BUT it will probably still fracture.


Frankly, doing that, if one isn't comfortable with heat treating,
could be problematic.

One last point: If the OP decides to go for it, and finds a way to
anneal that corner, make sure he finishes knocking out the dent within
a day or so. 6061, if that's what it is, starts to age-harden pretty
quickly.



--
Steve W.
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Old June 5th 15, 01:21 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,540
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 18:58:07 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:57:17 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.
Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator.
Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these:
http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/
Supposedly around 800F, which isn't too far below the
(alloy-dependent) melting point. Aluminum melts without glowing red,
so don't heat it much past that vanishing point or you'll reach
another one.

I'd practice on a piece of 6061 sheet first, especially if you don't
have hands-on experience forming metals that work-harden and crack.

-jsw
Chances are that the case was drawn/stamped in a single op , if so
work-hardening shouldn't be a problem .


Macbooks built since 2008 are made of extruded blocks of
"aircraft-quality" aluminum. In the consumer world, at least among
quality manufacturers, that generally means any heat-treatable grade.
I'm told it's 6061, but my source wouldn't be able to tell that from
beverage-can aluminum.


6061 is correct. Milled from a single billet because it allows for
mounting points and standoffs to be machined without adding material.
Plus they are heat treated to make them stronger and stiffer.


Hoookay. So, maybe they've gone back and forth on the production
method.



The extruded billet is machined. I don't know how they finish it, but
it's alleged to be "hard-anodized." That sounds funny, because hard
anodizing (which is no harder than regular anodizing, only thicker)
generally is dull and gray. Macbooks look pretty bright.


Type 3 anodized, with a decorative second treatment.


Aha. I see that a Type 3 coating on 6061 is 0.003" thick and "dark
gray," which is what I've seen. They must apply a coating that looks
brighter.



Anyway, they're apparently not stamped, but rather 3D milled. That
shouldn't influence knocking out a dent, but if the aluminum is any
heat-treatable grade, and hard, it could crack if you don't anodize it
first.


Anneal yes BUT it will probably still fracture.


Yeah, I meant anneal. Brain glitch.

Thanks for the clarifications.

--
Ed Huntress


Frankly, doing that, if one isn't comfortable with heat treating,
could be problematic.

One last point: If the OP decides to go for it, and finds a way to
anneal that corner, make sure he finishes knocking out the dent within
a day or so. 6061, if that's what it is, starts to age-harden pretty
quickly.

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Old June 5th 15, 03:46 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 897
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.


Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator. Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these: http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/


No idea, but you can also "smoke" the area with an acetylene torch
with a very rich flame... or even a candle :-)

I suggested the markers because (1) it works and (2) you might not
have an acetylene torch :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

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Old June 5th 15, 03:48 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 897
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:57:17 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.

Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator.
Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these:
http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/


Supposedly around 800F, which isn't too far below the
(alloy-dependent) melting point. Aluminum melts without glowing red,
so don't heat it much past that vanishing point or you'll reach
another one.

I'd practice on a piece of 6061 sheet first, especially if you don't
have hands-on experience forming metals that work-harden and crack.

-jsw


Chances are that the case was drawn/stamped in a single op , if so
work-hardening shouldn't be a problem .


Yes and no. But I've found a lot of aluminum "things" bend better
after "annealing" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

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Old June 5th 15, 04:03 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 18,546
Default Repair dent in aluminum MacBook laptop?

On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 08:46:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:06:17 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

It is easy to do,
just paint the area with a marker - permanent or white board - and
then heat the area with a torch until the marker goes away.


Interesting - i'd never heard of using a marker as a heat indicator. Any idea what temperature that "vanishing point" would indicate?

I've always used these: http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/


No idea, but you can also "smoke" the area with an acetylene torch
with a very rich flame... or even a candle :-)

I suggested the markers because (1) it works and (2) you might not
have an acetylene torch :-)

In the aircraft world we use soap. When the soap melts and turns
bown(cooked) it's annealed..


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