Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old June 3rd 15, 08:06 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Hi-temp cement advice please

My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm
The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric

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Old June 3rd 15, 08:26 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Hi-temp cement advice please

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 11:06:00 -0700, wrote:

My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm
The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric


I don't have a clue, but if it were me, spending that much effort, I'd
use a refractory concrete, just in case. Google "refractory concrete"
and you'll find a bunch of products.

My dad built a big outdoor grill from brick and firebrick (for the
firebox) about the time I was born, using a mix of regular concrete
and crushed firebrick ("grog") for the mortar, I saw it about 40 years
later and it was still going strong. But I don't know if he was just
lucky, or if he got it right.

--
Ed Huntress
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Old June 3rd 15, 08:38 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Hi-temp cement advice please

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 11:06:00 -0700, wrote:

My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm
The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric


If the "3 to 1 concrete mix" cited in the article has worked inside
the fire boxes for all these years, it ought to work outside as well.
I assume that means 3 parts sand to 1 part concrete and no aggregate.
This stuff (with which I once had an initmate relationship*) is
probably pretty close if you don't want to mix your own.
http://www.quikrete.com/productlines/SandToppingMix.asp

*My relationship with Quikrete involved driving a truck delivering it
around eastern MA, CT and RI when I was in college in Boston in the
early 70's.

--
Ned Simmons
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Old June 4th 15, 02:58 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Hi-temp cement advice please

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 13:22:42 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?


It's probably unlikely, but if the builders knew of this then, sodium
silicate (water-glass) solution added to the concrete will increase its
ability to manage direct heat.

It also changes the curing characteristics, so experiment or research it
before doing.

Lloyd

Been known for at least a hundred years. What you realy want is some
kind of refractory cement. Fire-Rok is one brand out there.

You want concrete that has no moisture in it - or concrete that can
let the moisture out without splitting the concrete. Using fine
plastic fibers in the agregate allows the plastic to melt and extrude,
relieving the stem pressure.


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Old June 4th 15, 05:11 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Hi-temp cement advice please

I'd put in a refractory cement - AL based comes in a bag.
Refractory cement isn't a water based cement. Portland cement has water
stored in the cement.

I use refractory cement - a different process - and it is in my furnace.
I melt Al and Brass. I don't want it to spit or explode.

If you spill some Al or Brass on the concrete floor - it will pop a
chunk out with steam explosion.

Martin

On 6/3/2015 1:06 PM, wrote:
My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm
The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric

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Old June 4th 15, 10:33 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Hi-temp cement advice please

On 04/06/15 04:11, Martin Eastburn wrote:
I'd put in a refractory cement - AL based comes in a bag.
Refractory cement isn't a water based cement. Portland cement has water
stored in the cement.

I use refractory cement - a different process - and it is in my furnace.
I melt Al and Brass. I don't want it to spit or explode.

If you spill some Al or Brass on the concrete floor - it will pop a
chunk out with steam explosion.

Martin

Plenty of refractory cement is water based, I use 1600C and 1650C
capable refractory castable frequently, and some 1800C from time to
time, all work by adding water. The key is in the drying out and
commissioning the cast parts to dry out any initial excess water and
then driving off the chemically bound water. The binder isn't Portland
cement as that won't take the heat, but an alumina silicate based cement.


On 6/3/2015 1:06 PM, wrote:
My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm

The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric


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Old June 4th 15, 09:39 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Hi-temp cement advice please

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 14:26:12 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 11:06:00 -0700, wrote:

My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm
The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric


I don't have a clue, but if it were me, spending that much effort, I'd
use a refractory concrete, just in case. Google "refractory concrete"
and you'll find a bunch of products.

My dad built a big outdoor grill from brick and firebrick (for the
firebox) about the time I was born, using a mix of regular concrete
and crushed firebrick ("grog") for the mortar, I saw it about 40 years
later and it was still going strong. But I don't know if he was just
lucky, or if he got it right.

Re-reading the article it says, as Ned pointed out, that a 3 to 1
mixture of sand and cement is what they used and these stoves are
still in fine shape 80 years later. The Klamath Stove has the concrete
directly exposed to the fire. The stoves my brother and I are making
will have steel against the concrete so I don't think it will be
getting all that hot.
Eric
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Old June 4th 15, 10:05 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 2,074
Default Hi-temp cement advice please

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 14:38:29 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 11:06:00 -0700, wrote:

My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm
The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric


If the "3 to 1 concrete mix" cited in the article has worked inside
the fire boxes for all these years, it ought to work outside as well.
I assume that means 3 parts sand to 1 part concrete and no aggregate.
This stuff (with which I once had an initmate relationship*) is
probably pretty close if you don't want to mix your own.
http://www.quikrete.com/productlines/SandToppingMix.asp

*My relationship with Quikrete involved driving a truck delivering it
around eastern MA, CT and RI when I was in college in Boston in the
early 70's.

I missed that Ned. It does indeed look like plain old concrete will
work.
Thanks,
Eric
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Old June 5th 15, 01:23 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 12,540
Default Hi-temp cement advice please

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 12:39:10 -0700, wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 14:26:12 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 11:06:00 -0700,
wrote:

My brother and I are welding up a couple of replicas of a "Klamath
Stove" See this link:
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/...amp/sec4-6.htm
The first picture of the stove shows a man standing by a stove with a
square chimney. This is the stove we are replicating. However, the
original Klamath Stove just had a metal top and front whereas ours are
complete steel boxes that will be set into some type of concrete. By
the way, the article is quite old and mentions that the stoves haven't
yet had the test of time. The stoves were built by the CCC during the
depression. So they are about 80 years old and still work very well.
So I guess they have now been time tested. When the stoves are done
and ready to be put in concrete what should we use? Will plain old
post mix work? Do we need special cement in the concrete mix?
Thanks,
Eric


I don't have a clue, but if it were me, spending that much effort, I'd
use a refractory concrete, just in case. Google "refractory concrete"
and you'll find a bunch of products.

My dad built a big outdoor grill from brick and firebrick (for the
firebox) about the time I was born, using a mix of regular concrete
and crushed firebrick ("grog") for the mortar, I saw it about 40 years
later and it was still going strong. But I don't know if he was just
lucky, or if he got it right.

Re-reading the article it says, as Ned pointed out, that a 3 to 1
mixture of sand and cement is what they used and these stoves are
still in fine shape 80 years later. The Klamath Stove has the concrete
directly exposed to the fire. The stoves my brother and I are making
will have steel against the concrete so I don't think it will be
getting all that hot.
Eric


'Sounds like a cool stove. Good luck with it.

BTW, I've seen fire rings in campgrounds that were laid right on top
of concrete, and it sure looked like regular ol' concrete.

--
Ed Huntress


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