Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Flare brake lines?

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.

TIA
-JSW


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.

TIA -JSW


I wouldn't splice into the existing brake line, on the general principle
that if it broke once, it'll break again. If you can replace the whole
thing in sections, with all new pieces, yourself, without major
disassembly, then that's to be contemplated.

brakes = safety item
safety item = don't mess around

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Default Flare brake lines?


On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the

outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.


HAH! This IS the "net". Do you (necessarily) expect any better advice
here than you'd get elsewhere on the net?

(This is not to criticize anyone's advice... only to point out that this
is just as unreliable a resource as anything else you might pick up on
"the net")

HAH!
LLoyd
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:17:01 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the

outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.


HAH! This IS the "net". Do you (necessarily) expect any better advice
here than you'd get elsewhere on the net?

(This is not to criticize anyone's advice... only to point out that this
is just as unreliable a resource as anything else you might pick up on
"the net")


Unless you've been watching the group, and you have a notion of who's full
of BS and who isn't. Strangely, must of the folks who answer questions
here give pretty good advise, IMHO.

When I ask for advice on the net I generally pay attention to all of it,
but only follow the bits that make sense after I think about them a bit.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:21:16 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:17:01 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the

outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.


HAH! This IS the "net". Do you (necessarily) expect any better advice
here than you'd get elsewhere on the net?

(This is not to criticize anyone's advice... only to point out that this
is just as unreliable a resource as anything else you might pick up on
"the net")


Unless you've been watching the group, and you have a notion of who's full
of BS and who isn't. Strangely, must of the folks who answer questions
here give pretty good advise, IMHO.

When I ask for advice on the net I generally pay attention to all of it,
but only follow the bits that make sense after I think about them a bit.


Here's the best, which I think you posted: Don't screw with brake
lines. Do not splice brake lines. Do not jury-rig brake lines.

If you had an accident and they found out you'd done something like
that, I doubt if the insurance company would pay.

--
Ed Huntress


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.

TIA
-JSW

Buy several shorter pre-made lengths and double flare unions to join
them. Work from both ends to the middle, and then you only need to cut
and reflare, at most, one end of one piece.

If it only rusted under one clip, you may get lucky and be able to cut
the line in a solid location, install a flare nut and flare the end of
the existing tube , then connect a replacement line from there to the
end.
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:05:22 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.

TIA -JSW


I wouldn't splice into the existing brake line, on the general principle
that if it broke once, it'll break again. If you can replace the whole
thing in sections, with all new pieces, yourself, without major
disassembly, then that's to be contemplated.

brakes = safety item
safety item = don't mess around

On Hondas and Toyotas it is not uncommon to see a perfectly solid
line rot out under a retaining clip (holds line to body) and the rest
of the line is perfect.. In this case, installing a short section can
be effective and perfectly acceptable. Just make sure the line IS
solid, and make sure you do a good jog ov double flaring the line, and
supporting the repaired section when you are done. Generally a good
idea to replace the entire run that is clipped to the floor - but you
can sometimes avoid having to do the twisties on the firewall and
around the rear suspension - or at least the twisties up on the
firewall/inner fender behind the engine.
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Default Flare brake lines?

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:21:16 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:17:01 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory
and not
too helpful.


HAH! This IS the "net". Do you (necessarily) expect any better
advice
here than you'd get elsewhere on the net?

(This is not to criticize anyone's advice... only to point out
that this
is just as unreliable a resource as anything else you might pick
up on
"the net")


Unless you've been watching the group, and you have a notion of
who's full
of BS and who isn't. Strangely, must of the folks who answer
questions
here give pretty good advise, IMHO.

When I ask for advice on the net I generally pay attention to all of
it,
but only follow the bits that make sense after I think about them a
bit.


Here's the best, which I think you posted: Don't screw with brake
lines. Do not splice brake lines. Do not jury-rig brake lines.

If you had an accident and they found out you'd done something like
that, I doubt if the insurance company would pay.

--
Ed Huntress


Is standard hardware made for the purpose considered jury-rigging?

Today I got a quote of $500 to replace both rear lines with
copper-nickel which is flexible enough to thread through the tight
gaps where the factory lines go. Does anyone have experience with it?

http://www.eastwood.com/blog/eastwoo...s-brake-lines/
"Copper brake lines are not advised, but Copper-Nickel hybrid lines
are available that won't corrode and will bend easier than mild or
stainless steel lines."

-jsw


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:27:41 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:21:16 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:17:01 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart enough
to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and
not too helpful.


HAH! This IS the "net". Do you (necessarily) expect any better
advice here than you'd get elsewhere on the net?

(This is not to criticize anyone's advice... only to point out that
this is just as unreliable a resource as anything else you might pick
up on "the net")


Unless you've been watching the group, and you have a notion of who's
full of BS and who isn't. Strangely, must of the folks who answer
questions here give pretty good advise, IMHO.

When I ask for advice on the net I generally pay attention to all of it,
but only follow the bits that make sense after I think about them a bit.


Here's the best, which I think you posted: Don't screw with brake lines.
Do not splice brake lines. Do not jury-rig brake lines.

If you had an accident and they found out you'd done something like
that, I doubt if the insurance company would pay.


Actually, I didn't say "don't screw with it". I said don't splice to a
known-bad brake line. If the OP can use approved aftermarket components
(i.e., brake lines and blocks from the auto parts store) to do the job,
more power to him.

I suppose I might think differently if he does it up out of 64 3" sections
of line, with 63 splice blocks -- but replacing one 16' long line with two
8' lines makes perfect sense to me.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:19:07 -0400, clare wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:05:22 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.

TIA -JSW


I wouldn't splice into the existing brake line, on the general principle
that if it broke once, it'll break again. If you can replace the whole
thing in sections, with all new pieces, yourself, without major
disassembly, then that's to be contemplated.

brakes = safety item safety item = don't mess around

On Hondas and Toyotas it is not uncommon to see a perfectly solid
line rot out under a retaining clip (holds line to body) and the rest of
the line is perfect.. In this case, installing a short section can be
effective and perfectly acceptable. Just make sure the line IS solid,
and make sure you do a good jog ov double flaring the line, and
supporting the repaired section when you are done. Generally a good idea
to replace the entire run that is clipped to the floor - but you can
sometimes avoid having to do the twisties on the firewall and around the
rear suspension - or at least the twisties up on the firewall/inner
fender behind the engine.


I suppose that if there's some clearly obvious section that is rotted out
for some clearly obvious reason, that would make sense. I'd inspect those
remaining bits of line damned carefully, though.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


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Default Flare brake lines?

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:19:07 -0400, clare wrote:

On Hondas and Toyotas it is not uncommon to see a perfectly solid
line rot out under a retaining clip (holds line to body) and the
rest of
the line is perfect.. In this case, installing a short section can
be
effective and perfectly acceptable. Just make sure the line IS
solid,
and make sure you do a good jog ov double flaring the line, and
supporting the repaired section when you are done. Generally a good
idea
to replace the entire run that is clipped to the floor - but you
can
sometimes avoid having to do the twisties on the firewall and
around the
rear suspension - or at least the twisties up on the firewall/inner
fender behind the engine.


I suppose that if there's some clearly obvious section that is
rotted out
for some clearly obvious reason, that would make sense. I'd inspect
those
remaining bits of line damned carefully, though.

--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


The lines run from front to rear through a slotted plastic shield
under the body. I sprayed LPS-3 into it and the visible sections still
have their factory green finish. There's a little corrosion where the
retaining clips blocked the spray but the only serious rust is at the
rear behind a solid part of the shield.

-jsw


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Default Flare brake lines?

Jim - one possibility: go to a local auto parts dealer that sells
"Haynes Repair Manuals" and get a copy for your car. The section labeled
"hoses & lines, inspection and replacement" should provide useful
data.

Hul

Jim Wilkins wrote:
A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.


What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.


TIA
-JSW



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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:28:56 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:21:16 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:17:01 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory
and not
too helpful.


HAH! This IS the "net". Do you (necessarily) expect any better
advice
here than you'd get elsewhere on the net?

(This is not to criticize anyone's advice... only to point out
that this
is just as unreliable a resource as anything else you might pick
up on
"the net")

Unless you've been watching the group, and you have a notion of
who's full
of BS and who isn't. Strangely, must of the folks who answer
questions
here give pretty good advise, IMHO.

When I ask for advice on the net I generally pay attention to all of
it,
but only follow the bits that make sense after I think about them a
bit.


Here's the best, which I think you posted: Don't screw with brake
lines. Do not splice brake lines. Do not jury-rig brake lines.

If you had an accident and they found out you'd done something like
that, I doubt if the insurance company would pay.

--
Ed Huntress


Is standard hardware made for the purpose considered jury-rigging?

Today I got a quote of $500 to replace both rear lines with
copper-nickel which is flexible enough to thread through the tight
gaps where the factory lines go. Does anyone have experience with it?

http://www.eastwood.com/blog/eastwoo...s-brake-lines/
"Copper brake lines are not advised, but Copper-Nickel hybrid lines
are available that won't corrode and will bend easier than mild or
stainless steel lines."

-jsw

The copper nickel lines are common in europe but almost unheard of
here. The copper-nickel alloy used for brake tubing typically contains
10% nickel, with iron and manganese additions of 1.4% and 0.8%
respectively. The product conforms to ASTM B466 (American Society for
Testing and Materials), which specifies dimensions, tensile strength
and yield strength. Formability and internal cleanliness conform to
specifications SAE J527, ASTM A254 and SMMT C5B (Society of Motor
Manufacturers and Traders). Also, the alloy meets the requirements for
pressure containment, fabrication and corrosion resistance for ISO
4038 (International Standards Organization) and SAE J1047.
I have used the stuff, and it is easier to use tha steel, and is
almost totally corrosion resistant and does not work harden and crack
like straight copper. Straight copper is not only "not advised" but is
specifically prohibited for automotive brake line use - for very good
reason.

The stuff isn't cheap, however. I believe one of the most common names
is Cunifer. I see Jeggs is carrying the product now at reasonable
prices.
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:01:45 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:19:07 -0400, clare wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:05:22 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.

TIA -JSW

I wouldn't splice into the existing brake line, on the general principle
that if it broke once, it'll break again. If you can replace the whole
thing in sections, with all new pieces, yourself, without major
disassembly, then that's to be contemplated.

brakes = safety item safety item = don't mess around

On Hondas and Toyotas it is not uncommon to see a perfectly solid
line rot out under a retaining clip (holds line to body) and the rest of
the line is perfect.. In this case, installing a short section can be
effective and perfectly acceptable. Just make sure the line IS solid,
and make sure you do a good jog ov double flaring the line, and
supporting the repaired section when you are done. Generally a good idea
to replace the entire run that is clipped to the floor - but you can
sometimes avoid having to do the twisties on the firewall and around the
rear suspension - or at least the twisties up on the firewall/inner
fender behind the engine.


I suppose that if there's some clearly obvious section that is rotted out
for some clearly obvious reason, that would make sense. I'd inspect those
remaining bits of line damned carefully, though.

I've seen LOPTS of cases where only a section, or several sections ,
less than an inch in length are corroded. I have many times replaced
only the section of line with corroded spots, saving a LOT of work.
Very common, for instance, on 3rd gen Tercels, which have a plastic
cover clipped over the lines and salt accumulates around the brake
line clips, rotting them through right at the clip.
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Default Flare brake lines?


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:28:56 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:21:16 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:17:01 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from
the
outside
and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to
thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory
and not
too helpful.


HAH! This IS the "net". Do you (necessarily) expect any better
advice
here than you'd get elsewhere on the net?

(This is not to criticize anyone's advice... only to point out
that this
is just as unreliable a resource as anything else you might pick
up on
"the net")

Unless you've been watching the group, and you have a notion of
who's full
of BS and who isn't. Strangely, must of the folks who answer
questions
here give pretty good advise, IMHO.

When I ask for advice on the net I generally pay attention to all
of
it,
but only follow the bits that make sense after I think about them
a
bit.

Here's the best, which I think you posted: Don't screw with brake
lines. Do not splice brake lines. Do not jury-rig brake lines.

If you had an accident and they found out you'd done something
like
that, I doubt if the insurance company would pay.

--
Ed Huntress


Is standard hardware made for the purpose considered jury-rigging?

Today I got a quote of $500 to replace both rear lines with
copper-nickel which is flexible enough to thread through the tight
gaps where the factory lines go. Does anyone have experience with
it?

http://www.eastwood.com/blog/eastwoo...s-brake-lines/
"Copper brake lines are not advised, but Copper-Nickel hybrid lines
are available that won't corrode and will bend easier than mild or
stainless steel lines."

-jsw

The copper nickel lines are common in europe but almost unheard of
here. The copper-nickel alloy used for brake tubing typically
contains
10% nickel, with iron and manganese additions of 1.4% and 0.8%
respectively. The product conforms to ASTM B466 (American Society
for
Testing and Materials), which specifies dimensions, tensile strength
and yield strength. Formability and internal cleanliness conform to
specifications SAE J527, ASTM A254 and SMMT C5B (Society of Motor
Manufacturers and Traders). Also, the alloy meets the requirements
for
pressure containment, fabrication and corrosion resistance for ISO
4038 (International Standards Organization) and SAE J1047.
I have used the stuff, and it is easier to use tha steel, and is
almost totally corrosion resistant and does not work harden and
crack
like straight copper. Straight copper is not only "not advised" but
is
specifically prohibited for automotive brake line use - for very
good
reason.

The stuff isn't cheap, however. I believe one of the most common
names
is Cunifer. I see Jeggs is carrying the product now at reasonable
prices.


A local auto store had it on the rack at $30 for a 25' coil of 3/16".
NAPA was nearly twice that.

I ordered this to fit the cramped space up beside the gas tank and
hopefully do better than the usual cast yoke and 2-bar clamp flaring
tool I've been practicing with.
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...61A_0006404130

Thanks for the help
-jsw




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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:40:30 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the


Rust? Must be the salt. Living in CA, I never saw rusted lines.


outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.


Um, ouch. Yeah, pass.


What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.


Working with old brake lines is a brass coated bitch. Good luck
getting a solid double flare with the now brittle tubing. I much
prefer to work with all new tubing. Perhaps look into the possibility
of annealing it prior to working with it? I haven't heard of it, but
it has been a long while since I was wrenching. shrug

Tips:

Work super clean. Fully steam clean the area prior to working on it.
Use flare wrenches only. Dem tings is TIGHT and round off at the
slightest provocation.

If you decide to reroute the tube, watch for things like abrading
positions, heat from the muffler, rocks from the tires, etc. Shielding
and padding are both good workarounds, but some lifts catch different
points than you might think, so be aware.

Make sure to use the exact double-flare kit for that line size. I've
seen guys try to use SAE tools on Metric lines and fail every time.
One guy crimped a line so the flow must have been half what is was.
(someone left a note for the service manager) Brakes are a life saver,
so I don't fark around.

Before/After photos, please!


Enjoy! This just in via email:

Facts You May NOT Know:

Researchers for the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority found over 200
dead crows near greater Boston recently, and there was concern that
they may have died from Avian Flu. A Bird Pathologist examined the
remains of all the crows, and, to everyone's relief, confirmed the
problem was definitely NOT Avian Flu. The cause of death appeared to
be vehicular impacts.

However, during the detailed analysis it was noted that varying colors
of paints appeared on the bird's beaks and claws. By analyzing these
paint residues it was determined that 98% of the crows had been killed
by impact with trucks, while only 2% were killed by an impact with a
car.

MTA then hired an Ornithological Behaviorist to determine if there was
a cause for the disproportionate percentages of truck kills versus
car kills. He very quickly concluded the cause: When crows eat road
kill, they always have a look-out crow in a nearby tree to warn of
impending danger.

They discovered that while all the lookout crows could shout "Cah",
not a single one could shout "Truck."

Makes you wonder why you gave me your email address, huh?


--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo
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Default Flare brake lines?

Jim Wilkins wrote:
A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and not
too helpful.

TIA
-JSW



Many imports have bubble flares instead of the double flares common on
domestics.

Go get a length of Nicopp or Cunifer (same alloy different companies)
It's great stuff, bends easy, flares easy, doesn't rot. It's more money
than steel but less than stainless which is a PIA to work with.

Not hard to run the line yourself with this stuff.

OR you could go with the precut sections of steel and just couple them
with the correct parts.

--
Steve W.
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Default Flare brake lines?

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:
A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and
not too helpful.

TIA
-JSW


Many imports have bubble flares instead of the double flares common
on domestics.

Go get a length of Nicopp or Cunifer (same alloy different
companies) It's great stuff, bends easy, flares easy, doesn't rot.
It's more money than steel but less than stainless which is a PIA to
work with.

Not hard to run the line yourself with this stuff.

OR you could go with the precut sections of steel and just couple
them with the correct parts.

--
Steve W.


I want to know my options before I ask the inspection shop what they
will accept, and have several good examples to show them I can do it.
They trusted me to replace bad ball joints and brake rotors myself and
helped with the Ford's intermittent electrical problem.

It looks like coupling in a new section is possible if I can make good
flares in the vehicle's tubing. So far I've made decent practice ones
on replacement line with the cuts squared and chamfered in the lathe,
to isolate the potential problems. I have a mini tubing cutter that
cuts cleanly and will fit the tight space but I don't want to wear it
dull. Double flaring is turning out to be tricky and error-prone like
welding.

Here's an example of mixed reviews on the next step up in tooling:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113006

The vehicle line is straight for several feet in front of the
rust-out, so I could cut out a test section and try different tools
and techniques like annealing on it.

-jsw



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Default Flare brake lines?

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:
A 3/16" (0.191") brake line on my Honda rusted through from the
outside and the dealer wants $1200 to take the front and rear apart
enough to thread a one-piece new one in.

What should I watch for when I splice in a repair section with
double-lap flare fittings? Advice on the Net is contradictory and
not too helpful.

TIA
-JSW

Many imports have bubble flares instead of the double flares common
on domestics.

Go get a length of Nicopp or Cunifer (same alloy different
companies) It's great stuff, bends easy, flares easy, doesn't rot.
It's more money than steel but less than stainless which is a PIA to
work with.

Not hard to run the line yourself with this stuff.

OR you could go with the precut sections of steel and just couple
them with the correct parts.

--
Steve W.


I want to know my options before I ask the inspection shop what they
will accept, and have several good examples to show them I can do it.
They trusted me to replace bad ball joints and brake rotors myself and
helped with the Ford's intermittent electrical problem.

It looks like coupling in a new section is possible if I can make good
flares in the vehicle's tubing. So far I've made decent practice ones
on replacement line with the cuts squared and chamfered in the lathe,
to isolate the potential problems. I have a mini tubing cutter that
cuts cleanly and will fit the tight space but I don't want to wear it
dull. Double flaring is turning out to be tricky and error-prone like
welding.

Here's an example of mixed reviews on the next step up in tooling:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113006

The vehicle line is straight for several feet in front of the
rust-out, so I could cut out a test section and try different tools
and techniques like annealing on it.

-jsw




Cunifer is legal in every state AFIK. It is being used on a lot of the
high dollar imports and I've been using it in NY for years, it's in the
inspection regs as legal.

Factory line is soft steel tube, I've never had to do anything other
than the steps below.

To do a good flare isn't hard IF you follow a few steps.

1 CLEAN the outside of the line. Dirt/rust/crud is not helping. Neither
does the coating that some after market line has.

2 cut the tubing square as possible.

3 chamfer it inside and out to eliminate any burrs and clean up the weld
seam.

4 REMEMBER TO INSTALL ANY FITTINGS BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO FLARE THE
LINE!!!!!!!

5 Set up the tool and it's adapter properly.

6 LUBE the line and forming tip.

I've made good flares with just about every flare tool I've ever used.
From the cheap chinese ones to my mastercool unit. Some are easier than
others but if you do the steps they work.

This is the one in my tool box
http://www.mastercool.com/pages/flaring_tools.html

It's basically a hydraulic version of the tool you have.


--
Steve W.


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:41:33 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:19:07 -0400, clare wrote:

On Hondas and Toyotas it is not uncommon to see a perfectly solid
line rot out under a retaining clip (holds line to body) and the rest
of the line is perfect.. In this case, installing a short section can
be effective and perfectly acceptable. Just make sure the line IS
solid,
and make sure you do a good jog ov double flaring the line, and
supporting the repaired section when you are done. Generally a good
idea to replace the entire run that is clipped to the floor - but you
can sometimes avoid having to do the twisties on the firewall and
around the rear suspension - or at least the twisties up on the
firewall/inner fender behind the engine.


I suppose that if there's some clearly obvious section that is rotted
out for some clearly obvious reason, that would make sense. I'd
inspect those remaining bits of line damned carefully, though.

--
Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com


The lines run from front to rear through a slotted plastic shield under
the body. I sprayed LPS-3 into it and the visible sections still have
their factory green finish. There's a little corrosion where the
retaining clips blocked the spray but the only serious rust is at the
rear behind a solid part of the shield.


I guess the key word for me is "workmanlike". A long run that used to be
one piece that's had one section cut out and replaced (making it three
pieces) is "workmanlike" to me. A long run that used to be one piece with
five rusted out spots, that's now in 11 pieces, is not "workmanlike" --
it's "piece of ****" (unless it's a mile long, but there aren't very many
mile-long runs of brake tubing in the average car).

In Oregon you do the work and you drive the car, and things only become an
issue if your brakes fail and you whomp someone. In states that do
inspections you have to please the inspector -- but you probably get to at
least partially hide behind him, too, if he approved the work and your
brakes fail and you whomp someone.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Default Flare brake lines?

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:41:33 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:


I guess the key word for me is "workmanlike". A long run that used
to be
one piece that's had one section cut out and replaced (making it
three
pieces) is "workmanlike" to me. A long run that used to be one
piece with
five rusted out spots, that's now in 11 pieces, is not
"workmanlike" --
it's "piece of ****" (unless it's a mile long, but there aren't very
many
mile-long runs of brake tubing in the average car).

In Oregon you do the work and you drive the car, and things only
become an
issue if your brakes fail and you whomp someone. In states that do
inspections you have to please the inspector -- but you probably get
to at
least partially hide behind him, too, if he approved the work and
your
brakes fail and you whomp someone.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough of a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.

-jsw


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:28:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:41:33 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:


I guess the key word for me is "workmanlike". A long run that used
to be
one piece that's had one section cut out and replaced (making it
three
pieces) is "workmanlike" to me. A long run that used to be one
piece with
five rusted out spots, that's now in 11 pieces, is not
"workmanlike" --
it's "piece of ****" (unless it's a mile long, but there aren't very
many
mile-long runs of brake tubing in the average car).

In Oregon you do the work and you drive the car, and things only
become an
issue if your brakes fail and you whomp someone. In states that do
inspections you have to please the inspector -- but you probably get
to at
least partially hide behind him, too, if he approved the work and
your
brakes fail and you whomp someone.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough of a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.


Be sure to secure that service loop so vibration doesn't come into
play. That gooey cork/tar looking stuff they put around A/C low
pressure lines works well. It's sticky and stays put in heat.
http://tinyurl.com/nw88re6

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo
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Default Flare brake lines?

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:28:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the
inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared
repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough of
a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The
spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.


Be sure to secure that service loop so vibration doesn't come into
play. That gooey cork/tar looking stuff they put around A/C low
pressure lines works well. It's sticky and stays put in heat.
http://tinyurl.com/nw88re6


The U is only a few inches long and will be restrained at one end
where it exits the plastic shield, after I bleed and leak-test the
line. On the other side the well-braced parking brake cable is
available to support the added mass of the coupler. One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with windshield
washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby if duplicating the
factory routing would require too much disassembly of rusted
components.

Neither the factory nor the Haynes manual give much advice on
replacing brake lines. This may be one of those skills you are
expected to learn in person from the shop foreman.

I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts section.

-jsw


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with windshield
washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby...


I used some clear hose (happened to have some about the right size) at
the clips when I replaced one of the rear lines that runs along the
axle. Cut a slit in it to get it over the new line and then positioned
the slit to be down or on the bottom. The whole area, whole line
actually was liberally coated with wheel bearing grease. I could have
slid it over first and left it whole but I figured the slit would let
moisture drain out.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email



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Default Flare brake lines?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:28:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the
inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared
repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough of
a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The
spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.


Be sure to secure that service loop so vibration doesn't come into
play. That gooey cork/tar looking stuff they put around A/C low
pressure lines works well. It's sticky and stays put in heat.
http://tinyurl.com/nw88re6


The U is only a few inches long and will be restrained at one end
where it exits the plastic shield, after I bleed and leak-test the
line. On the other side the well-braced parking brake cable is
available to support the added mass of the coupler. One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with windshield
washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby if duplicating the
factory routing would require too much disassembly of rusted
components.


Good!


Neither the factory nor the Haynes manual give much advice on
replacing brake lines. This may be one of those skills you are
expected to learn in person from the shop foreman.


I think you're right. UTI didn't teach that to me, either. I think
we flared a couple brake lines once, and spent more time on honing and
flushing/bleeding.


I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts section.


They use that damnable Math Voodoo stuff in there! shakes head
Come to think of it, I think we lost a couple guys (out of a dozen) in
the first couple months of Electronics had been into play for a short
while when I retired from the field in late '85. I learned everything
I could from the Mitchell manuals Electrical sections. And Echlin
(NAPA) had some free courses, all of which I attended. I loved
electronics (stereo buff back then), so it's the path I chose after
screwing up my back while wrenching. Newer courses surely teach a
whole lot more of Ohm's Law than I got in 1972. Either that or they're
criminally negligent. IIRC, I had a tougher time in the electrical
section at UTI, and that made me pursue it avidly to become better
skilled; druthers being that I master _it_, versus the opposite.

That said, far too many current mechanics and electronics techs are
merely board swappers. I was taught to troubleshoot to the component
level in Coleman College's Computer Electronics Technology course. I
just wish I'd stayed at it longer. Damned corporate takeovers. SKF
gave me some nice going away presents, though, when I told them that
cubicle life wasn't for me.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 07:52:17 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:28:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the
inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared
repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough of
a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The
spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.

Be sure to secure that service loop so vibration doesn't come into
play. That gooey cork/tar looking stuff they put around A/C low
pressure lines works well. It's sticky and stays put in heat.
http://tinyurl.com/nw88re6


The U is only a few inches long and will be restrained at one end
where it exits the plastic shield, after I bleed and leak-test the
line. On the other side the well-braced parking brake cable is
available to support the added mass of the coupler. One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with windshield
washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby if duplicating the
factory routing would require too much disassembly of rusted
components.


Good!


Neither the factory nor the Haynes manual give much advice on
replacing brake lines. This may be one of those skills you are
expected to learn in person from the shop foreman.


I think you're right. UTI didn't teach that to me, either. I think
we flared a couple brake lines once, and spent more time on honing and
flushing/bleeding.


I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts section.


They use that damnable Math Voodoo stuff in there! shakes head
Come to think of it, I think we lost a couple guys (out of a dozen) in
the first couple months of Electronics had been into play for a short
while when I retired from the field in late '85. I learned everything
I could from the Mitchell manuals Electrical sections. And Echlin
(NAPA) had some free courses, all of which I attended. I loved
electronics (stereo buff back then), so it's the path I chose after
screwing up my back while wrenching. Newer courses surely teach a
whole lot more of Ohm's Law than I got in 1972. Either that or they're
criminally negligent. IIRC, I had a tougher time in the electrical
section at UTI, and that made me pursue it avidly to become better
skilled; druthers being that I master _it_, versus the opposite.

That said, far too many current mechanics and electronics techs are
merely board swappers. I was taught to troubleshoot to the component
level in Coleman College's Computer Electronics Technology course. I
just wish I'd stayed at it longer. Damned corporate takeovers. SKF
gave me some nice going away presents, though, when I told them that
cubicle life wasn't for me.

I learned a lot more about things like flaring lines in high school
than they taught at trade school, but our high school was much better
than most. We consistently had the top grads at trade school. Frank
Mader and Gerry Fry were EXCELLENT instructors, who were, first and
formost, excellent technicians. I saught to emulate them during my
teaching years.

Teaching automotive Mechanics in high school is a real challenge
because they tend to say "we'll never make an (engineer, electrician,
plumber,or whatever of this duffus, so let's put him into auto
mechanics" This means the auto instructor has to bring them up to
speed on their physics - electrical/electronics theory - hydraulics,
their math (ratio and propartion as well as measurement) and make them
into electronic technicians/plumbers/machinists/welder-fitters - the
whole works - before you can make a mechanic out of them....
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Default Flare brake lines?

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with
windshield
washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby...


I used some clear hose (happened to have some about the right size)
at
the clips when I replaced one of the rear lines that runs along the
axle. Cut a slit in it to get it over the new line and then
positioned
the slit to be down or on the bottom. The whole area, whole line
actually was liberally coated with wheel bearing grease. I could
have
slid it over first and left it whole but I figured the slit would
let
moisture drain out.

--
Leon Fisk


Not that it matters at the rear axle, but I try to pre-stock and use
plastics known to survive engine compartment temperature like washer
and fuel tubing and radiator hose repair tape for DIY patching. I have
some tie-wraps, heatshrink, silicone-insulated wire and Anderson
connectors in there now to see how they hold up.

http://www.amazon.com/Dimart-Silicon.../dp/B00PGTAEXS
It's very flexible and rated for 200C. It just barely fits into a 30A
Anderson pin if I wind solder around the strands first to pull them
together.

I just missed capturing 3/14/15 9:26:53 on the clock this morning
because I forgot to shut off the flash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_Day

-jsw


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Default Flare brake lines?

wrote in message
news
I learned a lot more about things like flaring lines in high school
than they taught at trade school, but our high school was much
better
than most. We consistently had the top grads at trade school. Frank
Mader and Gerry Fry were EXCELLENT instructors, who were, first and
formost, excellent technicians. I saught to emulate them during my
teaching years.

Teaching automotive Mechanics in high school is a real challenge
because they tend to say "we'll never make an (engineer,
electrician,
plumber,or whatever of this duffus, so let's put him into auto
mechanics" This means the auto instructor has to bring them up to
speed on their physics - electrical/electronics theory - hydraulics,
their math (ratio and propartion as well as measurement) and make
them
into electronic technicians/plumbers/machinists/welder-fitters - the
whole works - before you can make a mechanic out of them....


The local trade school recently turned their Diesel shop into a
computer lab, so there'll be no more small engine repair courses.
Welding is the only night class left that isn't an art or craft. A lot
of my machine shop stuff came from auctions of school shops being
repurposed into something more 'relevant' to a dumbed-down service
economy.

When I was in high school the college-bound kids took drafting and
wood shop and really learned from them since we competed to outdo each
other. However auto shop was for parolees from Juvie.

-jsw


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:47:48 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
news
I learned a lot more about things like flaring lines in high school
than they taught at trade school, but our high school was much
better
than most. We consistently had the top grads at trade school. Frank
Mader and Gerry Fry were EXCELLENT instructors, who were, first and
formost, excellent technicians. I saught to emulate them during my
teaching years.

Teaching automotive Mechanics in high school is a real challenge
because they tend to say "we'll never make an (engineer,
electrician,
plumber,or whatever of this duffus, so let's put him into auto
mechanics" This means the auto instructor has to bring them up to
speed on their physics - electrical/electronics theory - hydraulics,
their math (ratio and propartion as well as measurement) and make
them
into electronic technicians/plumbers/machinists/welder-fitters - the
whole works - before you can make a mechanic out of them....


The local trade school recently turned their Diesel shop into a
computer lab, so there'll be no more small engine repair courses.
Welding is the only night class left that isn't an art or craft. A lot
of my machine shop stuff came from auctions of school shops being
repurposed into something more 'relevant' to a dumbed-down service
economy.

When I was in high school the college-bound kids took drafting and
wood shop and really learned from them since we competed to outdo each
other. However auto shop was for parolees from Juvie.

-jsw

When I said "trade school" I meant post secondary - here in Ontario
that is Community College - a requirement for apprenticeship eading to
the required licence or certificate of qualification - which is
REQUIRED for all regulated trades -electrician, plumber, mechanic, all
regulated trades here.

In high school they no longer have "auto shop" - it's now
"transportation technology" and instead of learning to rebuild engines
and transmissions they build motorized skate boards


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Default Flare brake lines?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:49:49 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
Not that it matters at the rear axle, but I try to pre-stock and use
plastics known to survive engine compartment temperature like washer
and fuel tubing and radiator hose repair tape for DIY patching. I have
some tie-wraps, heatshrink, silicone-insulated wire and Anderson
connectors in there now to see how they hold up.


My truck is a 1982 Chevy 4x4. Bought it new in August of same.

So at this point in time you begin to learn what works and doesn't work
so well. At least some of us do ;-)

I just apply band-aides here & there nowadays when I have to. The road
salt finally caught up with it and my age/situation destroyed any
ambition I once had...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

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Default Flare brake lines?

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:28:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the
inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared
repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough of
a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The
spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.

Be sure to secure that service loop so vibration doesn't come into
play. That gooey cork/tar looking stuff they put around A/C low
pressure lines works well. It's sticky and stays put in heat.
http://tinyurl.com/nw88re6


The U is only a few inches long and will be restrained at one end
where it exits the plastic shield, after I bleed and leak-test the
line. On the other side the well-braced parking brake cable is
available to support the added mass of the coupler. One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with windshield
washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby if duplicating the
factory routing would require too much disassembly of rusted
components.

Neither the factory nor the Haynes manual give much advice on
replacing brake lines. This may be one of those skills you are
expected to learn in person from the shop foreman.

I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts section.

-jsw



If you cover the line make SURE it has some type of sealer or protectant
under the cover. Any moisture under the covering will increase the speed
that it rusts.

I like using alloy lines but if the customer says no I will install
steel and coat everything I install with a coat of sealer. I spray the
rest with a "custom" mix. Lanolin, beeswax and bar/chain oil, mix it
together while heated, brush on and let harden. Basically the same type
of item as Waxoyl or Fluid film for a LOT less $$$. I also use it on
body panels.


--
Steve W.
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Default Electronics Training for Privates

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

on-topic stuff snipped


I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts section.


Now that Radio Shack has crashed, perhaps the defense department should
commission someone to come up with a modern version of the 101-in-1
project kits, and sell them for just enough so that people think they're
worthwhile.

--
www.wescottdesign.com
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Default Flare brake lines?

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:47:48 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


The local trade school recently turned their Diesel shop into a
computer lab, so there'll be no more small engine repair courses.
Welding is the only night class left that isn't an art or craft. A
lot
of my machine shop stuff came from auctions of school shops being
repurposed into something more 'relevant' to a dumbed-down service
economy.

When I was in high school the college-bound kids took drafting and
wood shop and really learned from them since we competed to outdo
each
other. However auto shop was for parolees from Juvie.

-jsw

When I said "trade school" I meant post secondary - here in Ontario
that is Community College - a requirement for apprenticeship eading
to
the required licence or certificate of qualification - which is
REQUIRED for all regulated trades -electrician, plumber, mechanic,
all
regulated trades here.

In high school they no longer have "auto shop" - it's now
"transportation technology" and instead of learning to rebuild
engines
and transmissions they build motorized skate boards


Here they overlap:
http://www.ccsnh.edu/academics/running-start


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Default Flare brake lines?

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:49:49 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
Not that it matters at the rear axle, but I try to pre-stock and use
plastics known to survive engine compartment temperature like washer
and fuel tubing and radiator hose repair tape for DIY patching. I
have
some tie-wraps, heatshrink, silicone-insulated wire and Anderson
connectors in there now to see how they hold up.


My truck is a 1982 Chevy 4x4. Bought it new in August of same.

So at this point in time you begin to learn what works and doesn't
work
so well. At least some of us do ;-)

I just apply band-aides here & there nowadays when I have to. The
road
salt finally caught up with it and my age/situation destroyed any
ambition I once had...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


I hear ya. Crawling under the car reminds me I'm getting old.

Things I've fixed tend to stay fixed, but there's no lack of
interesting new problems.





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Default Flare brake lines?

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:28:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the
inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared
repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough
of a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The
spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.
Be sure to secure that service loop so vibration doesn't come into
play. That gooey cork/tar looking stuff they put around A/C low
pressure lines works well. It's sticky and stays put in heat.
http://tinyurl.com/nw88re6


The U is only a few inches long and will be restrained at one end
where it exits the plastic shield, after I bleed and leak-test the
line. On the other side the well-braced parking brake cable is
available to support the added mass of the coupler. One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with
windshield washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby if
duplicating the factory routing would require too much disassembly
of rusted components.

Neither the factory nor the Haynes manual give much advice on
replacing brake lines. This may be one of those skills you are
expected to learn in person from the shop foreman.

I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose
complex electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army
electronic repair school was quite high during the Volts - Amps -
Ohms - Watts section.

-jsw


If you cover the line make SURE it has some type of sealer or
protectant under the cover. Any moisture under the covering will
increase the speed that it rusts.

I like using alloy lines but if the customer says no I will install
steel and coat everything I install with a coat of sealer. I spray
the rest with a "custom" mix. Lanolin, beeswax and bar/chain oil,
mix it together while heated, brush on and let harden. Basically the
same type of item as Waxoyl or Fluid film for a LOT less $$$. I also
use it on body panels.
--
Steve W.


The places where I sprayed LPS-3 through the large holes in the cover
shield didn't rust.

This isn't mine. The water-trapping clips are in the center of the
picture where the plastic fits tightly against the metal.
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...6/DSC00786.jpg

This is the problem area at the rear of the shield. Mine doesn't look
as bad.
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...6/DSC00794.jpg

The thread these came from:
http://honda-tech.com/honda-element-...w-bad-3064081/

Between the retaining clips the lines still have the factory paint, or
the shiny plating where I've scrubbed it off to check them. Most of
the clip-covered areas showed only white corrosion from the plating,
like his but not as much. The badly rusted area was in the splash zone
ahead of the rear wheel, and covered by a short unperforated section
of the shield that the photo doesn't show.

-jsw


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Default Electronics Training for Privates

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 13:48:32 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

on-topic stuff snipped


I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts section.


Now that Radio Shack has crashed, perhaps the defense department should
commission someone to come up with a modern version of the 101-in-1
project kits, and sell them for just enough so that people think they're
worthwhile.


I bought some project boxes at RatSnack last month, and the guy was
looking urpy. He said he wasn't sure how long they'd be running.
Did it fall? I hadn't heard.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:45:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 07:52:17 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:28:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


NH has salted roads and yearly inspections. When I told the
inspecting
mechanic that the line had failed he showed me a rack of flared
repair
sections to fix it, but said do NOT use compression fittings.

I cut out the rust-through and a suspicious spot caused by the
adjacent clip and put in a 20" premade section today, with enough of
a
service loop to cut off and redo the flares if they leak. The
spliced
line still fits neatly in the clips. I'll be rained/snowed out of
working on it this weekend but at least the line is sealed again.

Be sure to secure that service loop so vibration doesn't come into
play. That gooey cork/tar looking stuff they put around A/C low
pressure lines works well. It's sticky and stays put in heat.
http://tinyurl.com/nw88re6

The U is only a few inches long and will be restrained at one end
where it exits the plastic shield, after I bleed and leak-test the
line. On the other side the well-braced parking brake cable is
available to support the added mass of the coupler. One of the
mechanics I talked to suggested to pad a replaced line with windshield
washer hose and tie-wrap it to something nearby if duplicating the
factory routing would require too much disassembly of rusted
components.


Good!


Neither the factory nor the Haynes manual give much advice on
replacing brake lines. This may be one of those skills you are
expected to learn in person from the shop foreman.


I think you're right. UTI didn't teach that to me, either. I think
we flared a couple brake lines once, and spent more time on honing and
flushing/bleeding.


I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts section.


They use that damnable Math Voodoo stuff in there! shakes head
Come to think of it, I think we lost a couple guys (out of a dozen) in
the first couple months of Electronics had been into play for a short
while when I retired from the field in late '85. I learned everything
I could from the Mitchell manuals Electrical sections. And Echlin
(NAPA) had some free courses, all of which I attended. I loved
electronics (stereo buff back then), so it's the path I chose after
screwing up my back while wrenching. Newer courses surely teach a
whole lot more of Ohm's Law than I got in 1972. Either that or they're
criminally negligent. IIRC, I had a tougher time in the electrical
section at UTI, and that made me pursue it avidly to become better
skilled; druthers being that I master _it_, versus the opposite.

That said, far too many current mechanics and electronics techs are
merely board swappers. I was taught to troubleshoot to the component
level in Coleman College's Computer Electronics Technology course. I
just wish I'd stayed at it longer. Damned corporate takeovers. SKF
gave me some nice going away presents, though, when I told them that
cubicle life wasn't for me.

I learned a lot more about things like flaring lines in high school
than they taught at trade school, but our high school was much better
than most. We consistently had the top grads at trade school. Frank
Mader and Gerry Fry were EXCELLENT instructors, who were, first and
formost, excellent technicians. I saught to emulate them during my
teaching years.


Goodonya, mate.


Teaching automotive Mechanics in high school is a real challenge
because they tend to say "we'll never make an (engineer, electrician,
plumber,or whatever of this duffus, so let's put him into auto
mechanics" This means the auto instructor has to bring them up to
speed on their physics - electrical/electronics theory - hydraulics,
their math (ratio and propartion as well as measurement) and make them
into electronic technicians/plumbers/machinists/welder-fitters - the
whole works - before you can make a mechanic out of them....


Exactly. The general population thinks of mechanics as dumb grease
monkeys. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It takes a good
brain to be a good mechanic, a field which is in constant flux. We had
to be very flexible and ready to learn each week.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
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Default Flare brake lines?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 15:03:58 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:49:49 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
Not that it matters at the rear axle, but I try to pre-stock and use
plastics known to survive engine compartment temperature like washer
and fuel tubing and radiator hose repair tape for DIY patching. I
have
some tie-wraps, heatshrink, silicone-insulated wire and Anderson
connectors in there now to see how they hold up.


My truck is a 1982 Chevy 4x4. Bought it new in August of same.

So at this point in time you begin to learn what works and doesn't
work
so well. At least some of us do ;-)

I just apply band-aides here & there nowadays when I have to. The
road
salt finally caught up with it and my age/situation destroyed any
ambition I once had...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email


I hear ya. Crawling under the car reminds me I'm getting old.


Time to buy a creeper. What a difference it makes in ease!


Things I've fixed tend to stay fixed, but there's no lack of
interesting new problems.


Murphy is EVERYWHERE...

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
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Posts: 3,115
Default Electronics Training for Privates

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 13:48:32 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 08:45:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

on-topic stuff snipped


I feel sorry for mechanics who have to learn how to diagnose complex
electronics. The initial drop-out rate at the Army electronic repair
school was quite high during the Volts - Amps - Ohms - Watts
section.


Now that Radio Shack has crashed, perhaps the defense department
should commission someone to come up with a modern version of the
101-in-1 project kits, and sell them for just enough so that people
think they're worthwhile.


I bought some project boxes at RatSnack last month, and the guy was
looking urpy. He said he wasn't sure how long they'd be running.
Did it fall? I hadn't heard.


Here's the story :
money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/news/companies/radioshack-store-closings/ -

--
Snag


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