This is relevant to the modern interchangeable parts and output
impedance discussions.

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to be a
poor cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed during an
otherwise thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found it -after- I had
removed, disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about 30 -
40 Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the Bendix engaged
but the voltages were correct everywhere that was easily accessible,
the solenoid clicked and the battery dropped to 11.5V.

I bought Autozone's solid brass battery terminal to replace the
previous replacement and just found that it's too large for the
negative post and too small for the positive. It would have been a
problem for someone without my collection of blacksmith tools to swage
open the tapered hole and a milling machine to recut the square bolt
head seat at the new angle.

Autozone had a set of combo wrenches for not much more than HF's price
which is a better match to the odd sizes Ford used, like 18mm. This
time the socket set wouldn't get everything. I work on vehicles with
the tool kit kept in them and add to it whatever I had to borrow from
the garage set. Since I've taken almost everything apart already cheap
wrenches are good enough to undo bolts that have been lubed with LPS-3
or Never-Seez. (r)
-jsw

On 8/2/2014 7:58 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
This is relevant to the modern interchangeable parts and output
impedance discussions.

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to be a
poor cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed during an
otherwise thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found it -after- I had
removed, disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about 30 -
40 Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the Bendix engaged
but the voltages were correct everywhere that was easily accessible,
the solenoid clicked and the battery dropped to 11.5V.

I bought Autozone's solid brass battery terminal to replace the
previous replacement and just found that it's too large for the
negative post and too small for the positive. It would have been a
problem for someone without my collection of blacksmith tools to swage
open the tapered hole and a milling machine to recut the square bolt
head seat at the new angle.

Autozone had a set of combo wrenches for not much more than HF's price
which is a better match to the odd sizes Ford used, like 18mm. This
time the socket set wouldn't get everything. I work on vehicles with
the tool kit kept in them and add to it whatever I had to borrow from
the garage set. Since I've taken almost everything apart already cheap
wrenches are good enough to undo bolts that have been lubed with LPS-3
or Never-Seez. (r)
-jsw


Our old Mercedes Benz 300SD, 1983 model, had brass battery connectors on
the cables. They were good when we bought it in 1993 and still good as
new when we traded it last year. I had to replace the battery twice in
20 years. The battery that was in it when we bought it lasted almost 7
years.

Paul

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 10:58:32 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

This is relevant to the modern interchangeable parts and output
impedance discussions.

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to be a
poor cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed during an
otherwise thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found it -after- I had
removed, disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about 30 - 40
Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the Bendix engaged but
the voltages were correct everywhere that was easily accessible, the
solenoid clicked and the battery dropped to 11.5V.

I bought Autozone's solid brass battery terminal to replace the previous
replacement and just found that it's too large for the negative post and
too small for the positive. It would have been a problem for someone
without my collection of blacksmith tools to swage open the tapered hole
and a milling machine to recut the square bolt head seat at the new
angle.

I'm not sure what your actual question is, but if I were in your shoes I
would certainly be pondering the wisdom of buying parts from the World's
Cheapest Source to equip a vehicle upon which I depend. Either the
Autozone parts are just crap, or someone didn't match up the battery part
# to the clamp part # correctly.

The cables in my '69 truck were bought as assemblies from (I think) NAPA
when we rebuilt it 22 years ago. They work great and are showing little
signs of wear other than the ugly white slime that batteries get.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 08/03/2014 10:28 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 10:58:32 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:
....

I bought Autozone's solid brass battery terminal to replace the previous
replacement and just found that it's too large for the negative post and
too small for the positive. ...

....

... Either the Autozone parts are just crap, or someone didn't match
up the battery part # to the clamp part # correctly.
....

I don't know the specific part, but if it doesn't fit a standard
automotive battery terminal post, it probably wasn't intended to but is
for another application.

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 08/03/2014 10:28 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 10:58:32 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

I bought Autozone's solid brass battery terminal to replace the
previous
replacement and just found that it's too large for the negative
post and
too small for the positive. ...

...

... Either the Autozone parts are just crap, or someone didn't
match
up the battery part # to the clamp part # correctly.
...

I don't know the specific part, but if it doesn't fit a standard
automotive battery terminal post, it probably wasn't intended to but
is for another application.

--

The label reads "For post terminal batteries", without specifying
positive or negative.

Do you know of another similar application? Marine battery terninals
fit both automotive and deep-cycle batteries.

I think they made it halfway between the positive and negative post
sizes so one part can be tweaked to fit either, but the brass doesn't
bend as easily with hand tools as a lead alloy terminal. I pounded a
tapered mandrel into it to keep the hole round.

Autozone carries two or three quality/price/warranty levels, whatever
that means when everything comes from China. I don't touch the
patch-it-to-sell-it level.

-jsw

On 08/03/2014 11:56 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
....

I don't know the specific part, but if it doesn't fit a standard
automotive battery terminal post, it probably wasn't intended to but
is for another application.

....

The label reads "For post terminal batteries", without specifying
positive or negative.

Do you know of another similar application? Marine battery terninals
fit both automotive and deep-cycle batteries.

I think they made it halfway between the positive and negative post
sizes so one part can be tweaked to fit either, but the brass doesn't
bend as easily with hand tools as a lead alloy terminal. I pounded a
tapered mandrel into it to keep the hole round.

Autozone carries two or three quality/price/warranty levels, whatever
that means when everything comes from China. I don't touch the
patch-it-to-sell-it level.
....

Specific application, no, but doesn't seem to make any sense if it's too
large for the smaller standard post it doesn't work for either...

There is an A-Z franchise here, but I never go in for anything but on
occasion they have had some of the accessories like the plastic
xmas-tree pushie-panel mount thingies that NAPA has been out of stock on
(the local NAPA has been sold and the new owners are terrible about
restocking which is a real pita as it's the only place in town on the
side closest to us).

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 08/03/2014 11:56 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...

I don't know the specific part, but if it doesn't fit a standard
automotive battery terminal post, it probably wasn't intended to
but
is for another application.

...

The label reads "For post terminal batteries", without specifying
positive or negative.

Do you know of another similar application? Marine battery
terninals
fit both automotive and deep-cycle batteries.

I think they made it halfway between the positive and negative post
sizes so one part can be tweaked to fit either, but the brass
doesn't
bend as easily with hand tools as a lead alloy terminal. I pounded
a
tapered mandrel into it to keep the hole round.

Autozone carries two or three quality/price/warranty levels,
whatever
that means when everything comes from China. I don't touch the
patch-it-to-sell-it level.
...

Specific application, no, but doesn't seem to make any sense if it's
too large for the smaller standard post it doesn't work for
either...
...

Since I needed to expand it for the positive post I didn't first try
compressing it to see if it would grab the negative post before the
ends closed together. Probably it would, there wasn't much play.

Anyway, it's a contemporary example of a consumer replacement part
that requires hand fitting.
-jsw

On 08/03/2014 2:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
....

Since I needed to expand it for the positive post I didn't first try
compressing it to see if it would grab the negative post before the
ends closed together. Probably it would, there wasn't much play.

Anyway, it's a contemporary example of a consumer replacement part
that requires hand fitting.
....

I suppose, but still surprises me -- I'd think if it were that difficult
to adapt they'd get 99.997% returned by the consumer and quit carrying
them...

--

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to be a poor
cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed during an otherwise
thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found it -after- I had removed,
disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about 30 - 40
Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the Bendix engaged but the
voltages were correct everywhere that was easily accessible, the solenoid
clicked and the battery dropped to 11.5V.



Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this happens
usually something gets hot.

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message news:IZGdnULFVopIgULOnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to be
a poor cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed during
an otherwise thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found it -after-
I had removed, disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about
30 - 40 Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the Bendix
engaged but the voltages were correct everywhere that was easily
accessible, the solenoid clicked and the battery dropped to 11.5V.



Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this
happens usually something gets hot.

When something electrical malfunctions my experience-conditioned
reflex is to mentally photograph the symptoms and then quickly shut
off before something gets hot enough that the expensive magic smoke
billows out. I use the IR thermometer or as a last resort my hand to
chase less dire emergencies.

I did jump the relay with a screwdriver and heard the starter click
but not chatter, the usual indication of insufficient current from the
(12 year old) battery. Mostly I checked meters set up on the cowl to
show voltages and current while I turned the key. Seeing up to 40A in
the cable to the starter and still 11.5V at the clamps mislead me. In
the spring I had thoroughly cleaned, labelled and Ox-Garded all engine
compartment electrical connections (except this one).

I'd already rebuilt the starter once with new brushes and kinda
suspected the solenoid contacts, which had eroded away on my Accord
and been built up several times with brazing rod . The factory manual
gives 75A for the no-load starter current but doesn't break out how
much of that the solenoid coil draws.
-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:IZGdnULFVopIgULOnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to be a
poor cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed during an
otherwise thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found it -after- I had
removed, disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about 30 - 40
Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the Bendix engaged but
the voltages were correct everywhere that was easily accessible, the
solenoid clicked and the battery dropped to 11.5V.



Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this happens
usually something gets hot.

When something electrical malfunctions my experience-conditioned reflex is
to mentally photograph the symptoms and then quickly shut off before
something gets hot enough that the expensive magic smoke billows out. I
use the IR thermometer or as a last resort my hand to chase less dire
emergencies.


Mostly just giving you a reminder but yeah, it's easier said than done,
especially if you don't have a helper.


I did jump the relay with a screwdriver and heard the starter click but
not chatter, the usual indication of insufficient current from the (12
year old) battery. Mostly I checked meters set up on the cowl to show
voltages and current while I turned the key. Seeing up to 40A in

480 watts give or take, were it your lucky day, you'd have heard something
sizzling.


the cable to the starter and still 11.5V at the clamps mislead me. In the
spring I had thoroughly cleaned, labelled and Ox-Garded all engine
compartment electrical connections (except this one).

I'd already rebuilt the starter once with new brushes and kinda suspected
the solenoid contacts, which had eroded away on my Accord and been built
up several times with brazing rod . The factory manual gives 75A for the
no-load starter current but doesn't break out how much of that the
solenoid coil draws.
-jsw

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message newsJidnZsPcu4sJELOnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
....
Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this
happens usually something gets hot.

When something electrical malfunctions my experience-conditioned
reflex is to mentally photograph the symptoms and then quickly shut
off before something gets hot enough that the expensive magic smoke
billows out. I use the IR thermometer or as a last resort my hand
to chase less dire emergencies.


Mostly just giving you a reminder but yeah, it's easier said than
done, especially if you don't have a helper.

Another experience-conditioned reflex is not touching bare electrical
connections without stopping to think. Other than home stuff the last
live vehicle battery I worked on was for a 300V electric car.
-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message newsJidnZsPcu4sJELOnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this
happens usually something gets hot.

When something electrical malfunctions my experience-conditioned
reflex is to mentally photograph the symptoms and then quickly shut
off before something gets hot enough that the expensive magic smoke
billows out. I use the IR thermometer or as a last resort my hand
to chase less dire emergencies.


Mostly just giving you a reminder but yeah, it's easier said than
done, especially if you don't have a helper.

Another experience-conditioned reflex is not touching bare electrical
connections without stopping to think. Other than home stuff the last
live vehicle battery I worked on was for a 300V electric car.


That's what the helper is for....

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:0audnVJixJSllX3OnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message newsJidnZsPcu4sJELOnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this
happens usually something gets hot.

When something electrical malfunctions my experience-conditioned
reflex is to mentally photograph the symptoms and then quickly
shut
off before something gets hot enough that the expensive magic
smoke
billows out. I use the IR thermometer or as a last resort my hand
to chase less dire emergencies.


Mostly just giving you a reminder but yeah, it's easier said than
done, especially if you don't have a helper.

Another experience-conditioned reflex is not touching bare
electrical
connections without stopping to think. Other than home stuff the
last
live vehicle battery I worked on was for a 300V electric car.


That's what the helper is for....

================================
My potential helper came over looking for some replacement stainless
nuts while I had the terminals off the battery, leaned on the fender
and nearly shorted the exposed posts with the Vise-Grips he was
holding to tighten the nuts. I often have to start small engines for
him. He definitely has his skills but they don't include machinery,
electricity or plumbing.

He volunteered to help reshingle my roof and taught me how to handle
the Bituthene and keep the rows straight and the spacing even.

Especially with electricity the less I have to explain the more I get
done.
-jsw

On 2014-08-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message news:IZGdnULFVopIgULOnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to be
a poor cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed during
an otherwise thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found it -after-
I had removed, disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about
30 - 40 Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the Bendix
engaged but the voltages were correct everywhere that was easily
accessible, the solenoid clicked and the battery dropped to 11.5V.



Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this
happens usually something gets hot.

When something electrical malfunctions my experience-conditioned
reflex is to mentally photograph the symptoms and then quickly shut
off before something gets hot enough that the expensive magic smoke
billows out. I use the IR thermometer or as a last resort my hand to
chase less dire emergencies.

Without the high current, get a voltmeter and stab one probe
into the battery terminal and the other into the terminal clamp. If you
get *any* deflection of the needle (or reading on the LCD display) that
means a poor connection through the terminal/clamp interface.

I've been known to get people home by putting a large wood screw
between the terminal and the clamp at the split. That bites well enough
to get them home (or to a place which will clean/fix it) without needing
to call a tow truck.

I did jump the relay with a screwdriver and heard the starter click
but not chatter, the usual indication of insufficient current from the
(12 year old) battery. Mostly I checked meters set up on the cowl to
show voltages and current while I turned the key. Seeing up to 40A in
the cable to the starter and still 11.5V at the clamps mislead me. In
the spring I had thoroughly cleaned, labelled and Ox-Garded all engine
compartment electrical connections (except this one).

:-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2014-08-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in
message news:IZGdnULFVopIgULOnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

The other day my truck had a no-start problem that turned out to
be
a poor cable connection at the battery clamp that I'd missed
during
an otherwise thorough spring electrical cleanup. I found
it -after-
I had removed, disassembled and thoroughly checked the starter.

The corrosion hidden inside the cable clamp still allowed about
30 - 40 Amps, not enough to spin the starter motor with the
Bendix
engaged but the voltages were correct everywhere that was easily
accessible, the solenoid clicked and the battery dropped to
11.5V.



Suggest next time feel the cables and connectors first, when this
happens usually something gets hot.

When something electrical malfunctions my experience-conditioned
reflex is to mentally photograph the symptoms and then quickly shut
off before something gets hot enough that the expensive magic smoke
billows out. I use the IR thermometer or as a last resort my hand
to
chase less dire emergencies.

Without the high current, get a voltmeter and stab one probe
into the battery terminal and the other into the terminal clamp. If
you
get *any* deflection of the needle (or reading on the LCD display)
that
means a poor connection through the terminal/clamp interface.

I've been known to get people home by putting a large wood screw
between the terminal and the clamp at the split. That bites well
enough
to get them home (or to a place which will clean/fix it) without
needing
to call a tow truck.

The stainless steel pocket knife I carry isn't harmed by scraping the
terminals clean or prying open the vent caps. It doesn't hold much of
an edge, but the triangular needle file in the tool kit will
temporarily let it saw through thick nylon rope.


I did jump the relay with a screwdriver and heard the starter click
but not chatter, the usual indication of insufficient current from
the
(12 year old) battery. Mostly I checked meters set up on the cowl
to
show voltages and current while I turned the key. Seeing up to 40A
in
the cable to the starter and still 11.5V at the clamps mislead me.
In
the spring I had thoroughly cleaned, labelled and Ox-Garded all
engine
compartment electrical connections (except this one).

:-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

11.5V from the (+) terminal clamp to a ground screw on the inner
fender was misleading. It showed the battery was capable of supplying
current and the (rebuilt by me) starter was drawing some but not
enough. The dash lights dimmed only a little. The first thing I did
was recharge the battery. The automatic charger shut off within a few
minutes, ruling out an alternator (also rebuilt) problem.

I've described only the symptoms visible from the engine compartment
and cab, mostly as voltage, to add to the list of things to check
beside the road. I don't expect most people to have a DC clamp-on
ammeter probe for their DVMs.

The problem was obvious when I crawled underneath and clipped a longer
meter lead to the starter solenoid terminal. The voltage on the heavy
cable from the battery dropped from 12.5V to 0.2V when I turned the
key. Hmmm!

-jsw