I need to make some replacement things for my tractor. They are pins
with a tab on them, and then the pin holds a larger pin in its socket.

It is formed of a piece of 3/8x1 Flat Bar, with a piece of cold rolled
3/8 rod welded to that. The 3/8" rod will be about 2" long.

I can weld it with stick, flux core, or wirefeed with gas.

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

It really does not take any stress during operation, just keeps the 1"+
pin in place.

Steve

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpd650$753$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

Steve, you're over-engineering. It's just a friggin' lynch pin. Go buy
a whole double-handful of them at Tractor Supply for $10. They'll even
come with snap-lock rings to automagically hold them in place without any
extra baling wire. The ring also serves as a handle to turn and pull
them when they get sticky in the hole.

You can make better use of your time running your bush hog than making
lynch pins!

IF your time value doesn't matter, just stick them together with whatever
method is handy, including brazing or O/A welding, and after defluxing,
either paint them or don't. You don't have to heat treat a part that's
under zero mechanical stress. Weather will eat them up faster than wear.

Lloyd

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
SteveB fired this volley in news:lpd650$753$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit
it with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

Steve, you're over-engineering. It's just a friggin' lynch pin. Go
buy a whole double-handful of them at Tractor Supply for $10.
They'll even come with snap-lock rings to automagically hold them in
place without any extra baling wire. The ring also serves as a
handle to turn and pull them when they get sticky in the hole.

You can make better use of your time running your bush hog than making
lynch pins!

IF your time value doesn't matter, just stick them together with
whatever method is handy, including brazing or O/A welding, and after
defluxing, either paint them or don't. You don't have to heat treat
a part that's under zero mechanical stress. Weather will eat them up
faster than wear.

Lloyd

Lloyd , I think maybe you missed Steve's whole point . Just a WAG on my
part , but ...

--
Snag

"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in
:

Lloyd , I think maybe you missed Steve's whole point . Just a WAG on
my
part , but ...


Must have! I sure don't see any point in spending $5.00 to make an 80-cent
part.

LLoyd

On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 21:02:36 -0700, SteveB wrote:

I need to make some replacement things for my tractor. They are pins
with a tab on them, and then the pin holds a larger pin in its socket.

It is formed of a piece of 3/8x1 Flat Bar, with a piece of cold rolled
3/8 rod welded to that. The 3/8" rod will be about 2" long.

I can weld it with stick, flux core, or wirefeed with gas.

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

It really does not take any stress during operation, just keeps the 1"+
pin in place.

Steve


Just use 1018 steel and any welding process you like. Parts are soft
non-heat treated steel so they hold the pin without cracking or
breaking, might get beat up a bit but it don't matter.
Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

SteveB wrote:
I need to make some replacement things for my tractor. They are pins
with a tab on them, and then the pin holds a larger pin in its socket.

It is formed of a piece of 3/8x1 Flat Bar, with a piece of cold rolled
3/8 rod welded to that. The 3/8" rod will be about 2" long.

I can weld it with stick, flux core, or wirefeed with gas.

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

It really does not take any stress during operation, just keeps the
1"+ pin in place.

Steve

Zing ! or was that Whoosh ? Good one Steve , it went right over the heads of
at least a couple of folks .

--
Snag

On 7/7/2014 3:42 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
SteveB fired this volley in news:lpd650$753$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

Steve, you're over-engineering. It's just a friggin' lynch pin. Go buy
a whole double-handful of them at Tractor Supply for $10. They'll even
come with snap-lock rings to automagically hold them in place without any
extra baling wire. The ring also serves as a handle to turn and pull
them when they get sticky in the hole.

You can make better use of your time running your bush hog than making
lynch pins!

IF your time value doesn't matter, just stick them together with whatever
method is handy, including brazing or O/A welding, and after defluxing,
either paint them or don't. You don't have to heat treat a part that's
under zero mechanical stress. Weather will eat them up faster than wear.

Lloyd

I'll post a picture, as it is in a place where just a common pin won't
work, I believe. Maybe it will, or someone will have another
alternative or part number. There are a number of these keepers on the
tractor, so yes, I would like to just go buy a handful of them.

Today, I have to go to the cabin and change the kitchen faucet, and some
motion lights. Will post this evening or tomorrow.

Steve

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpe9dq$ta1$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

There are a number of these keepers on the
tractor, so yes, I would like to just go buy a handful of them.

They also have a sort of pin that looks a little like a large thumb
screw. It has a round shank with a flat on one side and a keeper ball at
the end, and an oval flat tang on the end so you can grasp it with thumb
and a couple of fingers.

I can't think of many places where you couldn't fit a regular lynch pin,
even if the bail wouldn't lock around the end of the pin -- but these
don't have the bail, so they might fit better.

Still only a $1.50 or $2.00 each, even with the two moving parts (ball
and spring).

Lloyd

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpe9dq$ta1$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

There are a number of these keepers on the
tractor, so yes, I would like to just go buy a handful of them.

PS... you might also consider some short eye bolts, as being similar to
what you have to make, maybe even with a nyloc nut on the other end to keep
them from working loose.

Lloyd

On 7/7/2014 3:42 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
SteveB fired this volley in news:lpd650$753$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

Steve, you're over-engineering. It's just a friggin' lynch pin. Go buy
a whole double-handful of them at Tractor Supply for $10. They'll even
come with snap-lock rings to automagically hold them in place without any
extra baling wire. The ring also serves as a handle to turn and pull
them when they get sticky in the hole.

You can make better use of your time running your bush hog than making
lynch pins!

IF your time value doesn't matter, just stick them together with whatever
method is handy, including brazing or O/A welding, and after defluxing,
either paint them or don't. You don't have to heat treat a part that's
under zero mechanical stress. Weather will eat them up faster than wear.

Lloyd

Lloyd, Lloyd, Lloyd. How many people here go out in their shop, and
spend hours building 1/8" widgets in their 12" jawwed cnc lathe? Well,
in this group, not a lot, most are curmudgeons or political nutjobs.
But there are still a few people who don't mind taking a break from
SWMBO or Nancy Grace, and going to the man cave and making some chips.
I would like to believe that there are still a few here who do make
thinguses from spare parts and junk, rather than go buy overpriced
Chinese crap, or find it difficult to make it to the store, or just find
some of these exotic parts from out of production motors hard to find.

I do manage my time, but at times, find it worth the time and effort to
just go out there, and make one like Dad would have done. My time is
valuable, and I am a very important man, but not to that degree. If I
ever reach that stage, I think a rethinking would be in order.

YMM(and probably does)V

Steve

On 7/7/2014 5:17 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Terry Coombs" fired this volley in
:

Lloyd , I think maybe you missed Steve's whole point . Just a WAG on
my
part , but ...


Must have! I sure don't see any point in spending $5.00 to make an 80-cent
part.

LLoyd


I throw away NOTHING. I can scrounge up the parts, probably paid for
five times over from different T&M jobs. A round trip to town is sixty
miles, and at 15 mpg or so, I come up with $16. Plus, I could make some
in less time than I'd spend out dodging uninsured impaired drivers in
the 110 degree desert balm.

Steve

On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 21:02:36 -0700, SteveB wrote:

I need to make some replacement things for my tractor. They are pins
with a tab on them, and then the pin holds a larger pin in its socket.

It is formed of a piece of 3/8x1 Flat Bar, with a piece of cold rolled
3/8 rod welded to that. The 3/8" rod will be about 2" long.

I can weld it with stick, flux core, or wirefeed with gas.

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

It really does not take any stress during operation, just keeps the 1"+
pin in place.

Steve
If the wire is already in the machine then MIG would be my first
choice because of speed and looks. Then flux core, then 7018 or 7014.
7018 or 7014 because they look better than 6011.
Eric

On Monday, July 7, 2014 4:02:36 AM UTC, SteveB wrote:


What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,

should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it

with a ball peen hammer at the weld?



Steve

I would space the rod about 1/8 inch from the bar so you get penetration. And then use what ever welding process is the most convenient. For me that would be SMAW 6013 rod as I have an AC stick welder next to the garage door and plugged in. Any other welder would take more time to plug it in , turn the gas on etc.

After welding one side, I would flip it over and weld the other side.

If the parts are mild steel , then heat treatment would have no effect.

Naturally if the parts are stainless steel, you would not use 6013 rod.

Dan

On 7/7/2014 7:47 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 21:02:36 -0700, SteveB wrote:

I need to make some replacement things for my tractor. They are pins
with a tab on them, and then the pin holds a larger pin in its socket.

It is formed of a piece of 3/8x1 Flat Bar, with a piece of cold rolled
3/8 rod welded to that. The 3/8" rod will be about 2" long.

I can weld it with stick, flux core, or wirefeed with gas.

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

It really does not take any stress during operation, just keeps the 1"+
pin in place.

Steve
If the wire is already in the machine then MIG would be my first
choice because of speed and looks. Then flux core, then 7018 or 7014.
7018 or 7014 because they look better than 6011.
Eric


I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd

On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 13:41:57 -0700, SteveB wrote:

On 7/7/2014 7:47 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 21:02:36 -0700, SteveB wrote:

I need to make some replacement things for my tractor. They are pins
with a tab on them, and then the pin holds a larger pin in its socket.

It is formed of a piece of 3/8x1 Flat Bar, with a piece of cold rolled
3/8 rod welded to that. The 3/8" rod will be about 2" long.

I can weld it with stick, flux core, or wirefeed with gas.

What would be the best way to weld it, what rod, and then afterward,
should I heat it up and let it cool, heat it up, and quench, or hit it
with a ball peen hammer at the weld?

It really does not take any stress during operation, just keeps the 1"+
pin in place.

Steve
If the wire is already in the machine then MIG would be my first
choice because of speed and looks. Then flux core, then 7018 or 7014.
7018 or 7014 because they look better than 6011.
Eric


I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve
I'd just stick weld it. But then I have a LOT more stick welding
experience tha wire feed experience and I can make a MUCH better job
with a stick welder. A 6010 or 6011 "tack rod" would be a lot better
than the 7018 or 7014 for the application. 6010 requires DC electrode
positive to make a decent weld, so in most situations I'd be stuck
with 6011 on a "buzz box" The application has no need for the extra
strength of a 7000 series rod. And 7018 that hasn't been kept
perfectly dry can be a trial. (like all Lo-Hiy rods)

On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 15:58:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd
Particularly if you drill the big peice to pretty well slip fit the
round bar in - and sweat braze it. No need for a fillet braze in the
application- particularly if all you are doing is holding the pin in
the hole. You can make a very solid and almost invisible joint.

On 7/7/2014 1:58 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd

My point was that I personally find it difficult to get things "pretty"
when there is only a short run of metal, or basically a spot to weld,
doing it with a rod.

A friend of mine was an inspector on a job we were doing for Banister
(the Alaska Pipeline people) through the Atchafalaya swamp. I asked
Francis what made a good inspector. He said that the average human can
spot 90% of bad welds just on appearance. After that, it gets internal
and complicated. I have found that if a weld looks "pretty", it's most
likely sound, and done with knowledge and skill.

Although, I have said (and offended some people by saying) that I could
teach a chimpanzee to wirefeed in less than a day.

Steve

On 7/7/2014 5:14 PM, wrote:

I'd just stick weld it. But then I have a LOT more stick welding
experience tha wire feed experience and I can make a MUCH better job
with a stick welder. A 6010 or 6011 "tack rod" would be a lot better
than the 7018 or 7014 for the application. 6010 requires DC electrode
positive to make a decent weld, so in most situations I'd be stuck
with 6011 on a "buzz box" The application has no need for the extra
strength of a 7000 series rod. And 7018 that hasn't been kept
perfectly dry can be a trial. (like all Lo-Hiy rods)

If you can stick weld that well, wirefeed should take you until lunch on
a bad day to learn.

Steve

On 7/7/2014 5:17 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 15:58:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd
Particularly if you drill the big peice to pretty well slip fit the
round bar in - and sweat braze it. No need for a fillet braze in the
application- particularly if all you are doing is holding the pin in
the hole. You can make a very solid and almost invisible joint.

Would that be a flux coated rod, and getting it hot enough to flow like
a solder joint? That sounds pretty nice. The hardest part would be
getting the hole drilled in the flatbar.

Steve

On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:57:25 -0700, SteveB wrote:

On 7/7/2014 5:17 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 15:58:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd
Particularly if you drill the big peice to pretty well slip fit the
round bar in - and sweat braze it. No need for a fillet braze in the
application- particularly if all you are doing is holding the pin in
the hole. You can make a very solid and almost invisible joint.

Would that be a flux coated rod, and getting it hot enough to flow like
a solder joint? That sounds pretty nice. The hardest part would be
getting the hole drilled in the flatbar.

Steve

Simply fire up the TIG welder and use it on uncoated braze rods. You
dont even need to slag off the bubbas.

I braze a fair amount..and havent used a coated rod in at least 2 yrs



-

"[F]ar from being the Great Satan, I would say that we
are the Great Protector. We have sent men and women
from the armed forces of the United States to other parts
of the world throughout the past century to put down oppression.
We defeated Fascism. We defeated Communism.
We saved Europe in World War I and World War II.
We were willing to do it, glad to do it. We went to
Korea. We went to Vietnam. All in the interest of
preserving the rights of people.

And when all those conflicts were over, what did we
do? Did we stay and conquer? Did we say, "Okay, we
defeated Germany. Now Germany belongs to us? We defeated Japan,
so Japan belongs to us"? No. What did we do?
We built them up. We gave them democratic systems which
they have embraced totally to their soul.
And did we ask for any land? No.

The only land we ever asked for was
enough land to bury our dead."

General Colin Powell

On 2014-07-08, SteveB wrote:
On 7/7/2014 5:14 PM, wrote:

I'd just stick weld it. But then I have a LOT more stick welding
experience tha wire feed experience and I can make a MUCH better job
with a stick welder. A 6010 or 6011 "tack rod" would be a lot better
than the 7018 or 7014 for the application. 6010 requires DC electrode
positive to make a decent weld, so in most situations I'd be stuck
with 6011 on a "buzz box" The application has no need for the extra
strength of a 7000 series rod. And 7018 that hasn't been kept
perfectly dry can be a trial. (like all Lo-Hiy rods)

If you can stick weld that well, wirefeed should take you until lunch on
a bad day to learn.

But should he? Does he need to learn to use wire feed?

The reason why I am asking is that we have both a stick and mig
welder, and I historically used only stick.

Just welded with 7018 for two days straight, making ramps for the
30,000 lbs forklift.

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

i

Ignoramus2738 fired this volley in
:

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

If you use GMAW mode, sure! GMAW requires virtually no cleanup, no flux
chipping, little spatter, and nice, clean welds with good penetration on
metal of the appropriate thickness to the wire size and amperage of the
machine.

You can also MIG aluminum. Although it's not as good as a TIG job, it
will go faster. It doesn't work as well through a stinger as it does
with a reel gun (not even with a Teflon liner in the hose).

For the sort of welding you do, stick is probably best. But when you
have that odd job that would be hard or time-consuming to clean up,
consider MIG, and save yourself a lot of after-welding labor.

"SteveB" wrote in message
...
...3/8" rod...

Is acetylene a good/better choice for welding small parts?
-jsw

On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:57:25 -0700, SteveB wrote:

On 7/7/2014 5:17 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 15:58:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd
Particularly if you drill the big peice to pretty well slip fit the
round bar in - and sweat braze it. No need for a fillet braze in the
application- particularly if all you are doing is holding the pin in
the hole. You can make a very solid and almost invisible joint.

Would that be a flux coated rod, and getting it hot enough to flow like
a solder joint? That sounds pretty nice. The hardest part would be
getting the hole drilled in the flatbar.

Steve
That's the idea. Flux the hole. Flux coated rod. Heat it up and apply
spelter - it will suck into the hole like a kid with a milkshake.

Drill press makes short work of the hole.

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 00:07:21 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:57:25 -0700, SteveB wrote:

On 7/7/2014 5:17 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 15:58:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd
Particularly if you drill the big peice to pretty well slip fit the
round bar in - and sweat braze it. No need for a fillet braze in the
application- particularly if all you are doing is holding the pin in
the hole. You can make a very solid and almost invisible joint.

Would that be a flux coated rod, and getting it hot enough to flow like
a solder joint? That sounds pretty nice. The hardest part would be
getting the hole drilled in the flatbar.

Steve

Simply fire up the TIG welder and use it on uncoated braze rods. You
dont even need to slag off the bubbas.

I braze a fair amount..and havent used a coated rod in at least 2 yrs

Tig does have that advantage - but drawing the braze into the joint
does work better with flux.



-

"[F]ar from being the Great Satan, I would say that we
are the Great Protector. We have sent men and women
from the armed forces of the United States to other parts
of the world throughout the past century to put down oppression.
We defeated Fascism. We defeated Communism.
We saved Europe in World War I and World War II.
We were willing to do it, glad to do it. We went to
Korea. We went to Vietnam. All in the interest of
preserving the rights of people.

And when all those conflicts were over, what did we
do? Did we stay and conquer? Did we say, "Okay, we
defeated Germany. Now Germany belongs to us? We defeated Japan,
so Japan belongs to us"? No. What did we do?
We built them up. We gave them democratic systems which
they have embraced totally to their soul.
And did we ask for any land? No.

The only land we ever asked for was
enough land to bury our dead."

General Colin Powell

On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:54:17 -0700, SteveB wrote:

On 7/7/2014 1:58 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd

My point was that I personally find it difficult to get things "pretty"
when there is only a short run of metal, or basically a spot to weld,
doing it with a rod.

A friend of mine was an inspector on a job we were doing for Banister
(the Alaska Pipeline people) through the Atchafalaya swamp. I asked
Francis what made a good inspector. He said that the average human can
spot 90% of bad welds just on appearance. After that, it gets internal
and complicated. I have found that if a weld looks "pretty", it's most
likely sound, and done with knowledge and skill.

Although, I have said (and offended some people by saying) that I could
teach a chimpanzee to wirefeed in less than a day.

Steve
I've seen a lot of "pretty" Mig welds that were not worth the scrap
value of the wire used to create them.

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:27:39 -0500, Ignoramus2738
wrote:

On 2014-07-08, SteveB wrote:
On 7/7/2014 5:14 PM, wrote:

I'd just stick weld it. But then I have a LOT more stick welding
experience tha wire feed experience and I can make a MUCH better job
with a stick welder. A 6010 or 6011 "tack rod" would be a lot better
than the 7018 or 7014 for the application. 6010 requires DC electrode
positive to make a decent weld, so in most situations I'd be stuck
with 6011 on a "buzz box" The application has no need for the extra
strength of a 7000 series rod. And 7018 that hasn't been kept
perfectly dry can be a trial. (like all Lo-Hiy rods)

If you can stick weld that well, wirefeed should take you until lunch on
a bad day to learn.

But should he? Does he need to learn to use wire feed?

The reason why I am asking is that we have both a stick and mig
welder, and I historically used only stick.

Just welded with 7018 for two days straight, making ramps for the
30,000 lbs forklift.

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

i
Mig is a lazy man's welder. Don't need to keep changing electrodes. As
far as I can tell it has no other advantage for most applications.

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:42:55 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ignoramus2738 fired this volley in
m:

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

If you use GMAW mode, sure! GMAW requires virtually no cleanup, no flux
chipping, little spatter, and nice, clean welds with good penetration on
metal of the appropriate thickness to the wire size and amperage of the
machine.

You can also MIG aluminum. Although it's not as good as a TIG job, it
will go faster. It doesn't work as well through a stinger as it does
with a reel gun (not even with a Teflon liner in the hose).

For the sort of welding you do, stick is probably best. But when you
have that odd job that would be hard or time-consuming to clean up,
consider MIG, and save yourself a lot of after-welding labor.

Well, there is that. I prefer Tig for the fussy stuff. (I don't tig
myself, but 2 good friends look after the little tig work I need (my
partner in the plane TIGed the entire fuselage)

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 08:27:57 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:54:17 -0700, SteveB wrote:

On 7/7/2014 1:58 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
SteveB fired this volley in news:lpf0mm$qdg$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two
parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I
end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will
probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice
appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.

Steve, if "pretty" is the goal, braze it.

Easy, fast, and the nicest-looking weldment you'll get between any two
pieces of metal. Plenty strong.

Lloyd

My point was that I personally find it difficult to get things "pretty"
when there is only a short run of metal, or basically a spot to weld,
doing it with a rod.

A friend of mine was an inspector on a job we were doing for Banister
(the Alaska Pipeline people) through the Atchafalaya swamp. I asked
Francis what made a good inspector. He said that the average human can
spot 90% of bad welds just on appearance. After that, it gets internal
and complicated. I have found that if a weld looks "pretty", it's most
likely sound, and done with knowledge and skill.

Although, I have said (and offended some people by saying) that I could
teach a chimpanzee to wirefeed in less than a day.

Steve
I've seen a lot of "pretty" Mig welds that were not worth the scrap
value of the wire used to create them.


Gunner nods his head and still wonders where that tire went.....


--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 08:29:26 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:27:39 -0500, Ignoramus2738
wrote:

On 2014-07-08, SteveB wrote:
On 7/7/2014 5:14 PM, wrote:

I'd just stick weld it. But then I have a LOT more stick welding
experience tha wire feed experience and I can make a MUCH better job
with a stick welder. A 6010 or 6011 "tack rod" would be a lot better
than the 7018 or 7014 for the application. 6010 requires DC electrode
positive to make a decent weld, so in most situations I'd be stuck
with 6011 on a "buzz box" The application has no need for the extra
strength of a 7000 series rod. And 7018 that hasn't been kept
perfectly dry can be a trial. (like all Lo-Hiy rods)

If you can stick weld that well, wirefeed should take you until lunch on
a bad day to learn.

But should he? Does he need to learn to use wire feed?

The reason why I am asking is that we have both a stick and mig
welder, and I historically used only stick.

Just welded with 7018 for two days straight, making ramps for the
30,000 lbs forklift.

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

i
Mig is a lazy man's welder. Don't need to keep changing electrodes. As
far as I can tell it has no other advantage for most applications.


There being nothing wrong with that btw. Stick allows you to use a
smaller machine to weld thicker materials. An equivalent sized MIG
will be a big assed workhorse of a beast in most cases.

That being said..for normal 1/8-3/8' weldments..MIG works pretty
darned nicely and its a heck of a lot faster and easier to weld
aluminum with a proper feeder/gun than it is to weld with aluminum
electrodes

Ive got a MK products feeder and an Prince XL gun and welded up a
friends aluminum rear bumper on his racing pickup truck a hell of a
lot faster than I could have with TIG and did as pretty a weld as TIG

There is a place for all three technologies. With some over lap.

Gunner


Gunner

--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."

wrote in message
...
Mig is a lazy man's welder. Don't need to keep changing electrodes.
As
far as I can tell it has no other advantage for most applications.

Not needing a 240V outlet is a big advantage for a homeowner. Is any
other method as good for autobody repair?
-jsw

fired this volley in
:

Well, there is that. I prefer Tig for the fussy stuff. (I don't tig
myself, but 2 good friends look after the little tig work

Sure, but for small but NOT 'fussy' parts, MIG is the quick way to a good
joint with minimal cleanup. TIG has the disadvantage (for the average
guy) of requiring both expensive setups and a lot of practice to do well.
I have _tried_ to teach several guys TIG, and they just couldn't ever get
the puddle-dip-dip technique. They'd either blow holes in the work, or
just podge the filler on the surface. (note on that, if you can fusion
weld with O-A, then the learning curve for TIG is much shorter)

MIG is a lot more forgiving for the guy who doesn't have the experience
or the investment, even if it does take a _little_ practice to get a nice
weld with good penetration.

I've seen guys who could TIG 0.005" shim stock to 1" plate, but I never
developed quite that degree of control over the puddle.

Lloyd

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 08:26:21 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

Well, there is that. I prefer Tig for the fussy stuff. (I don't tig
myself, but 2 good friends look after the little tig work

Sure, but for small but NOT 'fussy' parts, MIG is the quick way to a good
joint with minimal cleanup. TIG has the disadvantage (for the average
guy) of requiring both expensive setups and a lot of practice to do well.
I have _tried_ to teach several guys TIG, and they just couldn't ever get
the puddle-dip-dip technique. They'd either blow holes in the work, or
just podge the filler on the surface. (note on that, if you can fusion
weld with O-A, then the learning curve for TIG is much shorter)

I've done a fair amount of O/A fusion welding over the decades, and
still do some. Gotta get my torches overhauled. I find both my eysight
and my fine motor controls have deteriorated making tig welding a bit
more challenging

MIG is a lot more forgiving for the guy who doesn't have the experience
or the investment, even if it does take a _little_ practice to get a nice
weld with good penetration.

I've seen guys who could TIG 0.005" shim stock to 1" plate, but I never
developed quite that degree of control over the puddle.

Lloyd
My building partner is a genuine artiste with the tig torch on
Aluminum, stainless, ChroMo, and mild steel. My hangar mate is also a
terrific Tig welder ( and phosphour bronze brazer) -

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:12:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 08:29:26 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:27:39 -0500, Ignoramus2738
wrote:

On 2014-07-08, SteveB wrote:
On 7/7/2014 5:14 PM, wrote:

I'd just stick weld it. But then I have a LOT more stick welding
experience tha wire feed experience and I can make a MUCH better job
with a stick welder. A 6010 or 6011 "tack rod" would be a lot better
than the 7018 or 7014 for the application. 6010 requires DC electrode
positive to make a decent weld, so in most situations I'd be stuck
with 6011 on a "buzz box" The application has no need for the extra
strength of a 7000 series rod. And 7018 that hasn't been kept
perfectly dry can be a trial. (like all Lo-Hiy rods)

If you can stick weld that well, wirefeed should take you until lunch on
a bad day to learn.

But should he? Does he need to learn to use wire feed?

The reason why I am asking is that we have both a stick and mig
welder, and I historically used only stick.

Just welded with 7018 for two days straight, making ramps for the
30,000 lbs forklift.

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

i
Mig is a lazy man's welder. Don't need to keep changing electrodes. As
far as I can tell it has no other advantage for most applications.


There being nothing wrong with that btw. Stick allows you to use a
smaller machine to weld thicker materials. An equivalent sized MIG
will be a big assed workhorse of a beast in most cases.

That being said..for normal 1/8-3/8' weldments..MIG works pretty
darned nicely and its a heck of a lot faster and easier to weld
aluminum with a proper feeder/gun than it is to weld with aluminum
electrodes

Ive got a MK products feeder and an Prince XL gun and welded up a
friends aluminum rear bumper on his racing pickup truck a hell of a
lot faster than I could have with TIG and did as pretty a weld as TIG

There is a place for all three technologies. With some over lap.

Gunner


Gunner
Gas sheilded welding of either stripe is an advantage for aluminum
and stainless - for sure. But we were talking mild steel - where I'll
still use the stick welder or the O/A torch for most welds (and get my
friends to tig the fussy stuff - like fussy body patches - and the AL
and stainless stuff. I "braze" aluminum with the torch too, on
non-critical stuff (even aluminum bike carrier rack for the camper,
and canoe rack for the van roof-rack)

On Tue, 8 Jul 2014 09:24:21 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
Mig is a lazy man's welder. Don't need to keep changing electrodes.
As
far as I can tell it has no other advantage for most applications.

Not needing a 240V outlet is a big advantage for a homeowner. Is any
other method as good for autobody repair?
-jsw

TIG. The joints virtually dissappear.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2014 09:24:21 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
Mig is a lazy man's welder. Don't need to keep changing
electrodes.
As
far as I can tell it has no other advantage for most applications.

Not needing a 240V outlet is a big advantage for a homeowner. Is any
other method as good for autobody repair?
-jsw

TIG. The joints virtually dissappear.

Not at my TIG skill level.

I've used only MIG on vehicles because of the dealer's and shop
manual's advice about protecting the electronics. My MIG applies only
about 22VDC, the stick welder goes over 80 and I don't have adequate
equipment to measure the high frequency voltage from the TIG.
-jsw

On 7/8/2014 4:27 AM, Ignoramus2738 wrote:
On 2014-07-08, SteveB wrote:
On 7/7/2014 5:14 PM, wrote:

I'd just stick weld it. But then I have a LOT more stick welding
experience tha wire feed experience and I can make a MUCH better job
with a stick welder. A 6010 or 6011 "tack rod" would be a lot better
than the 7018 or 7014 for the application. 6010 requires DC electrode
positive to make a decent weld, so in most situations I'd be stuck
with 6011 on a "buzz box" The application has no need for the extra
strength of a 7000 series rod. And 7018 that hasn't been kept
perfectly dry can be a trial. (like all Lo-Hiy rods)

If you can stick weld that well, wirefeed should take you until lunch on
a bad day to learn.

But should he? Does he need to learn to use wire feed?

The reason why I am asking is that we have both a stick and mig
welder, and I historically used only stick.

Just welded with 7018 for two days straight, making ramps for the
30,000 lbs forklift.

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

i

As with any weldment, it depends on what you want for the finished
product. Strength? Looks? Both? MIG does have flaws, cold lap and
lack of penetration/fusion being the biggest. Unless you use FCAW, and
then, you get a lot of spatter at times. Whatever you welded with 7018,
I would trust ten times than if you had welded it with MIG, ask the guy
who had his spare tire arrangement pass him on the Interstate.

As with learning to braze small items to make intricate or small things,
it depends on what you are doing, and what you want the final outcome to
be. I have seen some of those sculptures that guys do in gas, and cut
out leaves from sheets of materials, and they are just beautiful. Yeah,
it's welding, but only slightly.

Steve

On 7/8/2014 4:42 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Ignoramus2738 fired this volley in
:

And so I am wondering, will I benefit somehow from using MIG instead
of stick?

If you use GMAW mode, sure! GMAW requires virtually no cleanup, no flux
chipping, little spatter, and nice, clean welds with good penetration on
metal of the appropriate thickness to the wire size and amperage of the
machine.

You can also MIG aluminum. Although it's not as good as a TIG job, it
will go faster. It doesn't work as well through a stinger as it does
with a reel gun (not even with a Teflon liner in the hose).

For the sort of welding you do, stick is probably best. But when you
have that odd job that would be hard or time-consuming to clean up,
consider MIG, and save yourself a lot of after-welding labor.

Some of the new pulse MIG is amazing.

Steve

On Monday, July 7, 2014 8:41:57 PM UTC, SteveB wrote:



I love 7014, but to get any kind of a vee in there between the two

parts, I find it difficult to get a good solid weld in a short space. I

end up with slag inclusions, or burnthrough, or just slag. Yes, I will

probably do it with .035" E70-S-6 and 75/25 mixed gas. Gives a nice

appearance, but one must do root preparation, or get a cold lap weld.



Steve

If I understand what you are making, you do not need to vee the joint. Just space the parts with about an 1/8th gap. And you do not need to worry about slag inclusions. The part has no stress on it.

Getting a good solid weld on a very short space is hard, but in this case a crappy ugly weld is good enough.

Dan