Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

Has anyone tried mining bitcoins? It sounds like fun and a good way to
heat your home or shop.
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 05:33:33 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

Has anyone tried mining bitcoins? It sounds like fun and a good way to
heat your home or shop.


Didn't I just read about one of the main bit coin sites being hacked?
The figure of $375 million was mentioned.
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On 2014-03-03, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Has anyone tried mining bitcoins? It sounds like fun and a good way to
heat your home or shop.


Everything I read, suggests that it is a low margin, capital intensive
business. The hardware is expensive and the yield is low.

i
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 18:22:18 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 05:33:33 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

Has anyone tried mining bitcoins? It sounds like fun and a good way to
heat your home or shop.


Didn't I just read about one of the main bit coin sites being hacked?
The figure of $375 million was mentioned.


The news I heard was Bankrupt. Closed. Gone. But it was my
understanding that bitcoin data was stored on a "cloud"
multi-redundant so your coins cannot ever be "lost" as long as you
know your login. Don't trust them, will never buy them.

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

Here are some things to know about Bitcoins:

1) Bitcoins really are currency, because they are transferable bits of
universal value. Bitcoins are no less of a currency than Ukrainian
Hryvna or $100 bills.

2) Supply of bitcoins is limited and cannot be manipulated.

3) Transfer of bitcoins is somewhat anonymous and cannot be
reversed. It is also all-electronic and cannot be easily regulated or
surveilled.

4) Here's most crucial aspect of bitcoins: they are stolen very
easily.

It is much more easy it is to steal bitcoins than to steal cash from
banks.

Because of this, any bitcoin-based institutions, like bitcoin banks,
bitcoin funds of any kind, exchanges etc, are vulnerable to complete
theft of all funds by insiders or oursiders. It is, therefore, very
risky to entrust your money to any such institution.

This means that institutions that we take for granted, like exchanges,
lenders, banks, mutual funds etc will have great difficulty operating
with bitcoins.

5) It is very difficult to price "what a bitcoin is really worth". I
find the discussion of "bitcoin bubble" to be very shallow, in the
worst traditions of financial journalism and know-nothing stock market
pundits.

I do not own a single bitcoin at this time.

i


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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 03/03/2014 04:33 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Has anyone tried mining bitcoins? It sounds like fun and a good way to heat
your home or shop.


Heating your shop is about all you will accomplish. Mining bitcoins is a
race to be the first in the world to find, by brute force guessing, a
solution to a mathematical puzzle. You are pitted against a total
computing power estimated at over 1 exaFLOP, which is 256 times that
of the top 500 supercomputers combined. And that was back in last
November -- it's probably more than that now. The only machines that
stand any chance of winning one of those races are built from scratch
with custom integrated circuits and can't do anything else.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/reuvenco...ters-combined/

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Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 3/3/2014 10:46 AM, Robert Nichols wrote:
On 03/03/2014 04:33 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Has anyone tried mining bitcoins? It sounds like fun and a good way
to heat
your home or shop.


Heating your shop is about all you will accomplish. Mining bitcoins is a
race to be the first in the world to find, by brute force guessing, a
solution to a mathematical puzzle. You are pitted against a total
computing power estimated at over 1 exaFLOP, which is 256 times that
of the top 500 supercomputers combined. And that was back in last
November -- it's probably more than that now. The only machines that
stand any chance of winning one of those races are built from scratch
with custom integrated circuits and can't do anything else.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/reuvenco...ters-combined/




Maybe new computing breakthroughs will follow. People will go to great
lengths of time and money to get something for nothing. That's the part
that gets me - why is so much computing power needed to tend to the
transactions? It seems to be proven that the security is not enough.
If Iggy won't get in on a revenue stream they you KNOW something's wrong
with it!
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

Ignoramus8540 wrote:
Here are some things to know about Bitcoins:

1) Bitcoins really are currency, because they are transferable bits of
universal value. Bitcoins are no less of a currency than Ukrainian
Hryvna or $100 bills.


you're wrong on #1.

nothing has the universal acceptance of US currency- not bit coins or
rubbles.


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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 2014-03-03, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus8540 wrote:
Here are some things to know about Bitcoins:

1) Bitcoins really are currency, because they are transferable bits of
universal value. Bitcoins are no less of a currency than Ukrainian
Hryvna or $100 bills.


you're wrong on #1.

nothing has the universal acceptance of US currency- not bit coins or
rubbles.



Euro is also not universally accepted, try to buy an ice cream in
Chicago with a 5 euros bill.

The point is that enough people are interested in bitcoin to make it a
currency. It is a currency, just not associated with a particular
country.

i
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

Ignoramus8540 wrote:
On 2014-03-03, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus8540 wrote:
Here are some things to know about Bitcoins:

1) Bitcoins really are currency, because they are transferable bits of
universal value. Bitcoins are no less of a currency than Ukrainian
Hryvna or $100 bills.


you're wrong on #1.

nothing has the universal acceptance of US currency- not bit coins or
rubbles.



Euro is also not universally accepted, try to buy an ice cream in
Chicago with a 5 euros bill.


You need money to buy stuff. euros, rubbles and bitcoins are all garbage
of no value. calling them currency is just salesman talk.


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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 11:51:48 -0600, Ignoramus8540
wrote:

On 2014-03-03, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus8540 wrote:
Here are some things to know about Bitcoins:

1) Bitcoins really are currency, because they are transferable bits of
universal value. Bitcoins are no less of a currency than Ukrainian
Hryvna or $100 bills.


you're wrong on #1.

nothing has the universal acceptance of US currency- not bit coins or
rubbles.



Euro is also not universally accepted, try to buy an ice cream in
Chicago with a 5 euros bill.

Years ago I tried to pay for something, in a little shop in Georgia,
with a 2 dollar bill and the guy asked me if I had "any other money"
as, he said, he had "never seen one of those".

The point is that enough people are interested in bitcoin to make it a
currency. It is a currency, just not associated with a particular
country.

i


They use big stone "wheels" for money on some S. Pacific island. The
wheels are too big to be easily transportable so they are leaned up
against trees at various places around the island.
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 2014-03-04, John B wrote:

They use big stone "wheels" for money on some S. Pacific island. The
wheels are too big to be easily transportable so they are leaned up
against trees at various places around the island.


Makes it pretty easy to tax people when money is that big. You know
who has how much.

i
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 03/03/2014 10:48 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 3/3/2014 10:46 AM, Robert Nichols wrote:
Heating your shop is about all you will accomplish. Mining bitcoins is a
race to be the first in the world to find, by brute force guessing, a
solution to a mathematical puzzle. You are pitted against a total
computing power estimated at over 1 exaFLOP, which is 256 times that
of the top 500 supercomputers combined. And that was back in last
November -- it's probably more than that now. The only machines that
stand any chance of winning one of those races are built from scratch
with custom integrated circuits and can't do anything else.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/reuvenco...ters-combined/





Maybe new computing breakthroughs will follow. People will go to great lengths
of time and money to get something for nothing. That's the part that gets me -
why is so much computing power needed to tend to the transactions? It seems to
be proven that the security is not enough. If Iggy won't get in on a revenue
stream they you KNOW something's wrong with it!


The requirement of computing effort is by design. As with mining
for gold, you need to put in effort and investment (for bitcoins,
it's called "Proof of Work") to get the reward, and the "difficulty
metric" goes steadily up as more worldwide computing power enters
the race. There is a good conceptual description of the process at
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining .

I'll not repeat the details here other than to say that without
highly specialized hardware, the value of the bitcoins you can
produce will be less than the cost of the power to run your
processor. As I said before, you will heat your shop, and that's
about all you will get.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 3/4/2014 10:22 AM, Robert Nichols wrote:
On 03/03/2014 10:48 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 3/3/2014 10:46 AM, Robert Nichols wrote:
Heating your shop is about all you will accomplish. Mining bitcoins
is a
race to be the first in the world to find, by brute force guessing, a
solution to a mathematical puzzle. You are pitted against a total
computing power estimated at over 1 exaFLOP, which is 256 times that
of the top 500 supercomputers combined. And that was back in last
November -- it's probably more than that now. The only machines that
stand any chance of winning one of those races are built from scratch
with custom integrated circuits and can't do anything else.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/reuvenco...ters-combined/






Maybe new computing breakthroughs will follow. People will go to
great lengths
of time and money to get something for nothing. That's the part that
gets me -
why is so much computing power needed to tend to the transactions? It
seems to
be proven that the security is not enough. If Iggy won't get in on a
revenue
stream they you KNOW something's wrong with it!


The requirement of computing effort is by design. As with mining
for gold, you need to put in effort and investment (for bitcoins,
it's called "Proof of Work") to get the reward, and the "difficulty
metric" goes steadily up as more worldwide computing power enters
the race. There is a good conceptual description of the process at
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining .

I'll not repeat the details here other than to say that without
highly specialized hardware, the value of the bitcoins you can
produce will be less than the cost of the power to run your
processor. As I said before, you will heat your shop, and that's
about all you will get.


I had read that and others. I had no intention of doing it, I just
found it fascinating. Hmmm. free money? NOT! But I do hope something
will come of it on the hardware end that will spill out to other situations.
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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:19:49 -0600, Ignoramus8540
wrote:

Here are some things to know about Bitcoins:


4) Here's most crucial aspect of bitcoins: they are stolen very
easily.


https://www.google.com/search?q=stolen+bitcoin+accounts


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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 2014-03-04, Edward A. Falk wrote:
An excellent post; I just want to amplify the key points.

In article ,
Ignoramus8540 wrote:
Here are some things to know about Bitcoins:

4) Here's most crucial aspect of bitcoins: they are stolen very
easily.


This seems to be very true. I don't know if that's in the
nature of the bitcoins, or because the people operating
bitcoin banks and exchanges are complete morons where
security is concerned.


First, it is the nature of bitcoins.

Second, they are so easy to steal, that any officer or custodian of
those bitcoins would be very tempted to steal them.

In other words, they are easy to steal by outsiders and insiders, and
someone will steal them eventually -- and customers and law
enforcement will not even know who stole them, an outsider or an
insider.

There was another bitcoin bank cleaned out two days ago:

http://flexcoin.com/


Fun!


5) It is very difficult to price "what a bitcoin is really worth". I
find the discussion of "bitcoin bubble" to be very shallow, in the
worst traditions of financial journalism and know-nothing stock market
pundits.


I think the definition of "what is a bitcoin worth" is the same for
any other commodity: "Whatever people are willing to pay for it."


Yes, but it does not really add any value to the discussion. In
addition, I believe that it is untrue and that a value of bitcoins can
be somehow modeled economically. I just do not know how.


I do not own a single bitcoin at this time.


Wise decision.

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Default Virtual metalworking - Bitcoin mining

On 2014-03-04, Ignoramus12880 wrote:
On 2014-03-04, Edward A. Falk wrote:
There was another bitcoin bank cleaned out two days ago:

http://flexcoin.com/


Fun!


Another bunch of PHP-using retards.

"PHP is easy for idiots to learn", so all idiots flocked to PHP...

i
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On 3/3/2014 12:17 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
....

You need money to buy stuff. euros, rubbles and bitcoins are all garbage
of no value. calling them currency is just salesman talk.


Well, at the moment the euro is trading at almost a 40% premium relative
to USD...

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