Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps
and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good
book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think
I can still learn stuff.

Tom Gardner Mars@tacks wrote:
Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps
and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good
book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think
I can still learn stuff.

This could be normal behavior for this charger. There are chargers, such
as for small electronics that won't charge a "dead" battery.

I've seen this for NiMH chargers more than for other types.

Keep in mind that a 12 volt meter reading on a 12 volt battery indicates
the battery is already discharged. Lower than that means it's been sitting
around, is cold or is trashed.

Tom Gardner wrote:

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps
and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.
I went through this when stranded at a remote cabin with a car with
a dead battery. Most of these smart chargers have some stupid
secret code to "rejuvenate" a totally dead battery. You may have
to push multiple buttons, hold for several seconds or whatever, and
no way to figure it out without the manual. I had to play with that
unit for MANY minutes before I was able to translate the Chinglish
instructions into the right buttons to make it start charging.

Jon

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good

book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can still learn stuff.

I have not actually seen the book , but there is a book entitled " Basic Electronics' which is a Navy training book. Published in 1972. Look on Abe or Amazon.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...6amp%3Bsts%3Dt

Dan



On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good

book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can still learn stuff.

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:01:10 -0800, wrote:

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good

book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can still learn stuff.

I have not actually seen the book , but there is a book entitled " Basic
Electronics' which is a Navy training book. Published in 1972. Look on
Abe or Amazon.

That sounds like it should be a winner.

There may be an "idiot's guide", but I'd hesitate to recommend it without
reviewing it.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger
is a one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and
12 amps and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do
is charge a totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman.
It displays: "BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from
another vehicle to get a few percent of a charge to get the
electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head?
I think I can still learn stuff.

I learned electronics in the Army, without textbooks or homework,
which was nice. There are some courses on the Internet and Radio Shack
has books, but I doubt you'll find anything that takes you from
beginner to fixing an antique battery charger.
jsw

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:33:33 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps
and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.
I went through this when stranded at a remote cabin with a car with
a dead battery. Most of these smart chargers have some stupid
secret code to "rejuvenate" a totally dead battery. You may have
to push multiple buttons, hold for several seconds or whatever, and
no way to figure it out without the manual. I had to play with that
unit for MANY minutes before I was able to translate the Chinglish
instructions into the right buttons to make it start charging.

Jon
The reason they won't charge a dead battery is the "polarity
protection" circuit to prevent hooking the charger up backwards and
doing damage to either the charger, the battery, or both.

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the replies and knowledge.

http://w3hwj.com/index_files/RBSelenium2.pdf

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps and
has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a totally
dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays: "BAD
BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle to get a
few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think I can
still learn stuff.

Comparing to piping, hydraulics, fluidics, pneumatics...

Volts are pressure
Amps is flow
Resistance is opposition to flow, a restriction in the line.
Power (watts) is the product of flow and pressure.

Rectifiers are like check valves.
capacitors are like storage tanks, accumulators or air tanks.
transistors are like pilot operated valves

AC would be kind of like a piston pump with no check valves, the power goes
one way and then the other.
So. using this back and forth fluid could drive a piston one size that is
connected to a different size piston, either increasing pressure and
decreasing volume, or increasing volume and decreasing pressure. That would
be kind of like a transformer, it takes alternating current to make it work.
So if you transformed your pumps force and pressure, it could be changed
after the transformer by adding check valves at that point.

The old fashioned battery charger transforms the line voltage to a lower
voltage at a higher current. Then a rectifier causes it to flow only one
way into the battery.

Magnetic field going through a wire induces a voltage in the wire, not sure
what that would compare to in hydraulics. The magnetic field inducing
voltage has to do with transformers, motors, inductors, antenna, and other.

RogerN

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:44:15 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
m...
Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger
is a one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and
12 amps and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do
is charge a totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman.
It displays: "BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from
another vehicle to get a few percent of a charge to get the
electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head?
I think I can still learn stuff.

I learned electronics in the Army, without textbooks or homework,
which was nice. There are some courses on the Internet and Radio Shack
has books, but I doubt you'll find anything that takes you from
beginner to fixing an antique battery charger.

You never know, though. With old farts like Tawm...there may be
enough other, and relevant, experiences to make connections.


--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

On 2/26/2014 4:01 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good

book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can still learn stuff.

I have not actually seen the book , but there is a book entitled " Basic Electronics' which is a Navy training book. Published in 1972. Look on Abe or Amazon.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...6amp%3Bsts%3Dt

Dan



On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good

book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can still learn stuff.


Cool, I can get one for about $5!

On 2/26/2014 4:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger
is a one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and
12 amps and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do
is charge a totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman.
It displays: "BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from
another vehicle to get a few percent of a charge to get the
electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head?
I think I can still learn stuff.

I learned electronics in the Army, without textbooks or homework,
which was nice. There are some courses on the Internet and Radio Shack
has books, but I doubt you'll find anything that takes you from
beginner to fixing an antique battery charger.
jsw




The charger was bought new in '75...is it an antique now? I have a LOT
of miles on it...consider the cars I had in college...

On 2/26/2014 8:32 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the replies and knowledge.

http://w3hwj.com/index_files/RBSelenium2.pdf




Good article! Thanks!

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the replies and knowledge.

http://w3hwj.com/index_files/RBSelenium2.pdf

Why does the author call the cathode of a diode "+"??

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2014 4:01 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner
wrote:
I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good
book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I
think
I can still learn stuff.
I have not actually seen the book , but there is a book entitled "
Basic Electronics' which is a Navy training book. Published in
1972. Look on Abe or Amazon.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...6amp%3Bsts%3Dt
Dan

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner
wrote:
I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good
book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I
think
I can still learn stuff.


Cool, I can get one for about $5!

Googling "navy electronics manual" brought a lot of links, mostly too
big for me to check with dialup.
http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/

I did look at the first chapter from hnsa.org, one of my favorite
sources. The preliminary stuff on atomic structure is important once
you reach transistors, and for batteries. They changed the name from
Electric to Electron-ic for good reason.

The Navy put out the best self-study guides, I think because sailors
were stuck in their bunks off-duty whereas Army and Air Force guys
could go out drinking.

jsw

On 2/26/2014 9:20 PM, RogerN wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps and
has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a totally
dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays: "BAD
BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle to get a
few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think I can
still learn stuff.

Comparing to piping, hydraulics, fluidics, pneumatics...

Volts are pressure
Amps is flow
Resistance is opposition to flow, a restriction in the line.
Power (watts) is the product of flow and pressure.

Rectifiers are like check valves.
capacitors are like storage tanks, accumulators or air tanks.
transistors are like pilot operated valves

AC would be kind of like a piston pump with no check valves, the power goes
one way and then the other.
So. using this back and forth fluid could drive a piston one size that is
connected to a different size piston, either increasing pressure and
decreasing volume, or increasing volume and decreasing pressure. That would
be kind of like a transformer, it takes alternating current to make it work.
So if you transformed your pumps force and pressure, it could be changed
after the transformer by adding check valves at that point.

The old fashioned battery charger transforms the line voltage to a lower
voltage at a higher current. Then a rectifier causes it to flow only one
way into the battery.

Magnetic field going through a wire induces a voltage in the wire, not sure
what that would compare to in hydraulics. The magnetic field inducing
voltage has to do with transformers, motors, inductors, antenna, and other.

RogerN




Good analogies Roger!

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
news
On 2/26/2014 9:20 PM, RogerN wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery
charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12
amps and
has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally
dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD
BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a
few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think
I can
still learn stuff.

Comparing to piping, hydraulics, fluidics, pneumatics...

Volts are pressure
Amps is flow
Resistance is opposition to flow, a restriction in the line.
Power (watts) is the product of flow and pressure.

Rectifiers are like check valves.
capacitors are like storage tanks, accumulators or air tanks.
transistors are like pilot operated valves

AC would be kind of like a piston pump with no check valves, the
power goes
one way and then the other.
So. using this back and forth fluid could drive a piston one size
that is
connected to a different size piston, either increasing pressure
and
decreasing volume, or increasing volume and decreasing pressure.
That would
be kind of like a transformer, it takes alternating current to make
it work.
So if you transformed your pumps force and pressure, it could be
changed
after the transformer by adding check valves at that point.

The old fashioned battery charger transforms the line voltage to a
lower
voltage at a higher current. Then a rectifier causes it to flow
only one
way into the battery.

Magnetic field going through a wire induces a voltage in the wire,
not sure
what that would compare to in hydraulics. The magnetic field
inducing
voltage has to do with transformers, motors, inductors, antenna,
and other.

RogerN




Good analogies Roger!

The water analogy of pressure = voltage, flow = current is useful when
you are first learning about Direct Current circuits, but it falls
apart quickly for Alternating Current because moving water's inertia
isn't the same as inductance, and we don't have the hands-on intuitive
experience with AC reversing flows that we do with DC garden hoses.

The analogy that helps me with AC is imagining the pistons and
crankshaft of an engine. The height of one piston represents the
constantly changing voltage of one phase of the power line. If it was
an equally spaced three-cylinder radial engine the other two pistons
would be the other phases. The three pistons (voltages) combine their
push in sequence to force a steady circular rotation of the
crankshaft, which was Tesla's inspiration for introducing AC to spin
motors without needing troublesome brushes.

This makes more sense if you understand sines and cosines.

Residential single-phase 120V is a one-cylinder engine and 240V is an
opposed twin, like a BMW motorcycle. Since they can hang at top dead
center they need a temporary circular push to start in the right
direction, the reason why single phase AC motors need starting
circuits but three phase ones don't.

..jsw

Toro has some good educational stuff on their website, including a basic
primer aimed at teaching technicians enough "electricity" to troubleshoot
mower and tractor wiring:
http://www.toro.com/customercare/com...df/09170sl.pdf They
also have a hydraulics primer that is pretty good:
http://www.toro.com/customercare/com...df/09169sl.pdf

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps
and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good
book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think
I can still learn stuff.

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
news
On 2/26/2014 9:20 PM, RogerN wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery
charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12
amps and
has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally
dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD
BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a
few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think
I can
still learn stuff.

Comparing to piping, hydraulics, fluidics, pneumatics...

Volts are pressure
Amps is flow
Resistance is opposition to flow, a restriction in the line.
Power (watts) is the product of flow and pressure.

Rectifiers are like check valves.
capacitors are like storage tanks, accumulators or air tanks.
transistors are like pilot operated valves

AC would be kind of like a piston pump with no check valves, the
power goes
one way and then the other.
So. using this back and forth fluid could drive a piston one size
that is
connected to a different size piston, either increasing pressure
and
decreasing volume, or increasing volume and decreasing pressure.
That would
be kind of like a transformer, it takes alternating current to make
it work.
So if you transformed your pumps force and pressure, it could be
changed
after the transformer by adding check valves at that point.

The old fashioned battery charger transforms the line voltage to a
lower
voltage at a higher current. Then a rectifier causes it to flow
only one
way into the battery.

Magnetic field going through a wire induces a voltage in the wire,
not sure
what that would compare to in hydraulics. The magnetic field
inducing
voltage has to do with transformers, motors, inductors, antenna,
and other.

RogerN




Good analogies Roger!

The water analogy of pressure = voltage, flow = current is useful when
you are first learning about Direct Current circuits, but it falls
apart quickly for Alternating Current because moving water's inertia
isn't the same as inductance, and we don't have the hands-on intuitive
experience with AC reversing flows that we do with DC garden hoses.

Gas is actually a better analogy than liquid for electrcity, but once that
makes sense you no longer need the analogies anymore. Oh well.

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:27:52 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 2/26/2014 9:20 PM, RogerN wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps and
has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a totally
dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays: "BAD
BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle to get a
few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think I can
still learn stuff.

Comparing to piping, hydraulics, fluidics, pneumatics...

Volts are pressure
Amps is flow
Resistance is opposition to flow, a restriction in the line.
Power (watts) is the product of flow and pressure.

Rectifiers are like check valves.
capacitors are like storage tanks, accumulators or air tanks.
transistors are like pilot operated valves

AC would be kind of like a piston pump with no check valves, the power goes
one way and then the other.
So. using this back and forth fluid could drive a piston one size that is
connected to a different size piston, either increasing pressure and
decreasing volume, or increasing volume and decreasing pressure. That would
be kind of like a transformer, it takes alternating current to make it work.
So if you transformed your pumps force and pressure, it could be changed
after the transformer by adding check valves at that point.

The old fashioned battery charger transforms the line voltage to a lower
voltage at a higher current. Then a rectifier causes it to flow only one
way into the battery.

Magnetic field going through a wire induces a voltage in the wire, not sure
what that would compare to in hydraulics. The magnetic field inducing
voltage has to do with transformers, motors, inductors, antenna, and other.

RogerN




Good analogies Roger!
But past a certain point, the analogy doesn't hold water - - - - .

RogerN wrote:


Magnetic field going through a wire induces a voltage in the wire, not
sure
what that would compare to in hydraulics. The magnetic field inducing
voltage has to do with transformers, motors, inductors, antenna, and
other.
Water hammer, ie. the inertia of the fluid moving through the pipe.
Its not a perfect analogy, but then none of this electricity is like
water and pipes is perfect, but it conveys the general behavior.

Jon

wrote:


The reason they won't charge a dead battery is the "polarity
protection" circuit to prevent hooking the charger up backwards and
doing damage to either the charger, the battery, or both.
Right, but if you are out in the woods with a dead car battery,
you need it to pump a little current into the battery to start the
voltage rising. If you get the load that drained the battery
turned off, and put a couple hundred mA into it, it won't hurt
anything. if the polarity is indeed wrong, the alternator diodes
will keep it from rising above about 1.4 V. If the polarity
is right, the voltage will keep rising, and eventually the charger
will decide to let you have rated current into the battery.

Jon

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
wrote:


The reason they won't charge a dead battery is the "polarity
protection" circuit to prevent hooking the charger up backwards and
doing damage to either the charger, the battery, or both.

Right, but if you are out in the woods with a dead car battery,
you need it to pump a little current into the battery to start the
voltage rising. If you get the load that drained the battery
turned off, and put a couple hundred mA into it, it won't hurt
anything. if the polarity is indeed wrong, the alternator diodes
will keep it from rising above about 1.4 V. If the polarity
is right, the voltage will keep rising, and eventually the charger
will decide to let you have rated current into the battery.

Jon

If you are out in the woods with a dead car battery the limitations
of an automatic charger don't matter. Revive the battery with another
vehicle or a portable jump starter.
jsw

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 15:05:56 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:01:10 -0800, wrote:

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good

book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can still learn stuff.

I have not actually seen the book , but there is a book entitled " Basic
Electronics' which is a Navy training book. Published in 1972. Look on
Abe or Amazon.

That sounds like it should be a winner.

There may be an "idiot's guide", but I'd hesitate to recommend it without
reviewing it.

There are literally many thousands of free books on the internet about
electronics. Simply go to google and type in Free book basic
electronics etc etc

Tons of stuff

http://www.freebookcentre.net/Electr...ics-Books.html

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/list...p?category=299

http://bookboon.com/en/electrical-el...neering-ebooks


Check out these...

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/details.php?ebook=9671

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/details.php?ebook=8640

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/details.php?ebook=8091

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands



--
"A "Liberal Paradise" would be a place where everybody has
guaranteed employment,free comprehensive healthcare,
free education, free food, free housing, free clothing,
free utilities, and only Law Enforcement has guns.
And believe it or not, such a place does indeed exist . . . It's called PRISON.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:18:48 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:33:33 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps
and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.
I went through this when stranded at a remote cabin with a car with
a dead battery. Most of these smart chargers have some stupid
secret code to "rejuvenate" a totally dead battery. You may have
to push multiple buttons, hold for several seconds or whatever, and
no way to figure it out without the manual. I had to play with that
unit for MANY minutes before I was able to translate the Chinglish
instructions into the right buttons to make it start charging.

Jon
The reason they won't charge a dead battery is the "polarity
protection" circuit to prevent hooking the charger up backwards and
doing damage to either the charger, the battery, or both.

Ive had some..some luck hooking another battery in parallel with the
dead one and the charger..and then removing the good battery.

Gunner

--
"A "Liberal Paradise" would be a place where everybody has
guaranteed employment,free comprehensive healthcare,
free education, free food, free housing, free clothing,
free utilities, and only Law Enforcement has guns.
And believe it or not, such a place does indeed exist . . . It's called PRISON.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 3/1/2014 1:42 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 15:05:56 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:01:10 -0800, wrote:

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good

book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can still learn stuff.

I have not actually seen the book , but there is a book entitled " Basic
Electronics' which is a Navy training book. Published in 1972. Look on
Abe or Amazon.

That sounds like it should be a winner.

There may be an "idiot's guide", but I'd hesitate to recommend it without
reviewing it.

There are literally many thousands of free books on the internet about
electronics. Simply go to google and type in Free book basic
electronics etc etc

Tons of stuff

http://www.freebookcentre.net/Electr...ics-Books.html

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/list...p?category=299

http://bookboon.com/en/electrical-el...neering-ebooks


Check out these...

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/details.php?ebook=9671

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/details.php?ebook=8640

http://www.e-booksdirectory.com/details.php?ebook=8091

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands



--
"A "Liberal Paradise" would be a place where everybody has
guaranteed employment,free comprehensive healthcare,
free education, free food, free housing, free clothing,
free utilities, and only Law Enforcement has guns.
And believe it or not, such a place does indeed exist . . . It's called PRISON.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com



Thanks!

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
On 3/1/2014 1:42 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands

Thanks!

Once you are past the basics electronics subdivides into Analog,
Digital, Communications and Power. If your concern is machine tools
you could concentrate on Power components and circuits and don't need
to go very far into the others, which you purchase as modules.
jsw

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:01:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
m...
On 3/1/2014 1:42 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands

Thanks!

Once you are past the basics electronics subdivides into Analog,
Digital, Communications and Power. If your concern is machine tools
you could concentrate on Power components and circuits and don't need
to go very far into the others, which you purchase as modules.
jsw


As a side note...I just wondered why Toms messages arent showing up.
I kinda wondered if he was not on here that much anymore and then I
see his messages in other peoples quotes. What the frack?

He is not in my kill file.


--

"
I was once told by a “gun safety” advocate back in the Nineties
that he favored total civilian firearms confiscation.
Only the military and police should have weapons he averred and what did I think about that?

I began to give him a reasoned answer and he
cut me off with an abrupt, “Give me the short answer.”

I thought for a moment and said, “If you try to take our firearms we will kill you.”"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think I can
still learn stuff.

If you're interested in battery charger electronics you can look up some
voltage regulator circuits. You can use an adjustable voltage regulator,
such as an LM317, by setting the output voltage to what you want the maximum
charge voltage to be, you can use it to charge a lead acid battery. By
adding a resistor, low ohms and enough power for an amp or so, you can have
the regulator lower the charge current while the battery gets nearer to full
charge, like the lead acid battery chargers do.

I read some interesting charging information about the "Battery Tender"
maintenance charger, useful if you want to keep your seasonal batteries in
good condition through the off season.
I found a PDF file that, on page 4, shows the voltages that the battery
tender operates at, "absorption charge" to 14.5 and maintenance charge of
13.2V.
http://www.powerwerx.com/download/Pr...rproof_800.pdf

Also, something I was interested in for boat batteries. Get a gasoline
small engine and mount an automotive alternator, then you can have a
portable battery charger that should be capable of some fairly high current.
For Gunner's 8V batteries, I read about modifying the voltage regulators for
alternators (the kind that have external regulators). IIRC, the basic idea
was to control the output by controlling the power going to the rotor. That
way the alternator, with the right voltage regulator, could be used to
charge 8V batteries on up to 48V golf cart or fork truck batteries.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_mod.html
http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...witworks.shtml

RogerN

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 11:13:56 -0600, "RogerN" wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
m...

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think I can
still learn stuff.

If you're interested in battery charger electronics you can look up some
voltage regulator circuits. You can use an adjustable voltage regulator,
such as an LM317, by setting the output voltage to what you want the maximum
charge voltage to be, you can use it to charge a lead acid battery. By
adding a resistor, low ohms and enough power for an amp or so, you can have
the regulator lower the charge current while the battery gets nearer to full
charge, like the lead acid battery chargers do.

I read some interesting charging information about the "Battery Tender"
maintenance charger, useful if you want to keep your seasonal batteries in
good condition through the off season.
I found a PDF file that, on page 4, shows the voltages that the battery
tender operates at, "absorption charge" to 14.5 and maintenance charge of
13.2V.
http://www.powerwerx.com/download/Pr...rproof_800.pdf

Also, something I was interested in for boat batteries. Get a gasoline
small engine and mount an automotive alternator, then you can have a
portable battery charger that should be capable of some fairly high current.
For Gunner's 8V batteries, I read about modifying the voltage regulators for
alternators (the kind that have external regulators). IIRC, the basic idea
was to control the output by controlling the power going to the rotor. That
way the alternator, with the right voltage regulator, could be used to
charge 8V batteries on up to 48V golf cart or fork truck batteries.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_mod.html
http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...witworks.shtml

RogerN


Thanks for the links!!

Gunner

--

"
I was once told by a “gun safety” advocate back in the Nineties
that he favored total civilian firearms confiscation.
Only the military and police should have weapons he averred and what did I think about that?

I began to give him a reasoned answer and he
cut me off with an abrupt, “Give me the short answer.”

I thought for a moment and said, “If you try to take our firearms we will kill you.”"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 08:50:58 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:01:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
om...
On 3/1/2014 1:42 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands

Thanks!

Once you are past the basics electronics subdivides into Analog,
Digital, Communications and Power. If your concern is machine tools
you could concentrate on Power components and circuits and don't need
to go very far into the others, which you purchase as modules.

Excellent point, Jim. A real timesaver, I'm sure.


As a side note...I just wondered why Toms messages arent showing up.
I kinda wondered if he was not on here that much anymore and then I
see his messages in other peoples quotes. What the frack?

He is not in my kill file.

He hadn't been on for awhile and his email was dead for awhile, too.
Doublecheck your filters for a plain old "tom", which I had done once.
Some of my filters had dozens of ORs in them, so check closely. BTDT.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

"RogerN" wrote in message
...
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a
good book to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head?
I think I can still learn stuff.

If you're interested in battery charger electronics you can look up
some voltage regulator circuits. You can use an adjustable voltage
regulator, such as an LM317, by setting the output voltage to what
you want the maximum charge voltage to be, you can use it to charge
a lead acid battery. By adding a resistor, low ohms and enough
power for an amp or so, you can have the regulator lower the charge
current while the battery gets nearer to full charge, like the lead
acid battery chargers do.

I read some interesting charging information about the "Battery
Tender" maintenance charger, useful if you want to keep your
seasonal batteries in good condition through the off season.
I found a PDF file that, on page 4, shows the voltages that the
battery tender operates at, "absorption charge" to 14.5 and
maintenance charge of 13.2V.
http://www.powerwerx.com/download/Pr...rproof_800.pdf

Also, something I was interested in for boat batteries. Get a
gasoline small engine and mount an automotive alternator, then you
can have a portable battery charger that should be capable of some
fairly high current. For Gunner's 8V batteries, I read about
modifying the voltage regulators for alternators (the kind that have
external regulators). IIRC, the basic idea was to control the
output by controlling the power going to the rotor. That way the
alternator, with the right voltage regulator, could be used to
charge 8V batteries on up to 48V golf cart or fork truck batteries.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_mod.html
http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...witworks.shtml

RogerN

If you start playing with homebrew battery chargers this is a good
meter to monitor the voltage:
http://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3721-Ba...s=innova+meter

Digital meters aren't reliably accurate to one count, so "13.8V" could
be anywhere from 13.70 to 13.99. This one should reduce the
uncertainty to 13.79 - 13.81. Mine is quite accurate but I can't
promise another will be as close.

The lighter plug is safer than clip leads and you can put an outlet
for it in the homebrew charger's front panel, or use the lighter
outlet in the vehicle. This device is powered from the 12V input and
unlike a DVM doesn't have internal batteries to run down if left on
for days. It draws 8mA from the car battery, most of that probably for
the display's useful backlight.
jsw

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 22:44:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:18:48 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:33:33 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery charger is a
one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12 amps
and has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a
totally dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:
"BAD BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle
to get a few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.
I went through this when stranded at a remote cabin with a car with
a dead battery. Most of these smart chargers have some stupid
secret code to "rejuvenate" a totally dead battery. You may have
to push multiple buttons, hold for several seconds or whatever, and
no way to figure it out without the manual. I had to play with that
unit for MANY minutes before I was able to translate the Chinglish
instructions into the right buttons to make it start charging.

Jon
The reason they won't charge a dead battery is the "polarity
protection" circuit to prevent hooking the charger up backwards and
doing damage to either the charger, the battery, or both.

Ive had some..some luck hooking another battery in parallel with the
dead one and the charger..and then removing the good battery.

Gunner
If the second battery has a reasonable charge and the dead battery
isn't shorted, it SHOULD work every time.

On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 09:53:39 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 11:13:56 -0600, "RogerN" wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
om...

I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a good book
to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think I can
still learn stuff.

If you're interested in battery charger electronics you can look up some
voltage regulator circuits. You can use an adjustable voltage regulator,
such as an LM317, by setting the output voltage to what you want the maximum
charge voltage to be, you can use it to charge a lead acid battery. By
adding a resistor, low ohms and enough power for an amp or so, you can have
the regulator lower the charge current while the battery gets nearer to full
charge, like the lead acid battery chargers do.

I read some interesting charging information about the "Battery Tender"
maintenance charger, useful if you want to keep your seasonal batteries in
good condition through the off season.
I found a PDF file that, on page 4, shows the voltages that the battery
tender operates at, "absorption charge" to 14.5 and maintenance charge of
13.2V.
http://www.powerwerx.com/download/Pr...rproof_800.pdf

Also, something I was interested in for boat batteries. Get a gasoline
small engine and mount an automotive alternator, then you can have a
portable battery charger that should be capable of some fairly high current.
For Gunner's 8V batteries, I read about modifying the voltage regulators for
alternators (the kind that have external regulators). IIRC, the basic idea
was to control the output by controlling the power going to the rotor. That
way the alternator, with the right voltage regulator, could be used to
charge 8V batteries on up to 48V golf cart or fork truck batteries.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_mod.html
http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...witworks.shtml

RogerN


Thanks for the links!!

Gunner
Inserting a few diodes in the "sense" lead to the regulator will
raise the charging voltage 3 silicone diodes will raise the voltage by
aprox 2.1 volts - close enough to charge an 8 volt battery with a 6
volt regulator.

On Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:11:23 PM UTC-6, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message

news
On 2/26/2014 9:20 PM, RogerN wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message

...



Thanks for all the replies and knowledge. My other battery

charger is a

one pound electronic machine. It works OK, supplies 2, 6 and 12

amps and

has all sorts of buttons and lights! What it won't do is charge a

totally

dead battery...thus repairing the old Craftsman. It displays:

"BAD

BATTERY" and I have to hook-up jumper cables from another vehicle

to get a

few percent of a charge to get the electronic charger to work.



I also confess I don't know enough about electronics. Is there a

good book

to start with that isn't too stupid yet not over my head? I think

I can

still learn stuff.



Comparing to piping, hydraulics, fluidics, pneumatics...



Volts are pressure

Amps is flow

Resistance is opposition to flow, a restriction in the line.

Power (watts) is the product of flow and pressure.



Rectifiers are like check valves.

capacitors are like storage tanks, accumulators or air tanks.

transistors are like pilot operated valves



AC would be kind of like a piston pump with no check valves, the

power goes

one way and then the other.

So. using this back and forth fluid could drive a piston one size

that is

connected to a different size piston, either increasing pressure

and

decreasing volume, or increasing volume and decreasing pressure.

That would

be kind of like a transformer, it takes alternating current to make

it work.

So if you transformed your pumps force and pressure, it could be

changed

after the transformer by adding check valves at that point.



The old fashioned battery charger transforms the line voltage to a

lower

voltage at a higher current. Then a rectifier causes it to flow

only one

way into the battery.



Magnetic field going through a wire induces a voltage in the wire,

not sure

what that would compare to in hydraulics. The magnetic field

inducing

voltage has to do with transformers, motors, inductors, antenna,

and other.



RogerN









Good analogies Roger!



The water analogy of pressure = voltage, flow = current is useful when

you are first learning about Direct Current circuits, but it falls

apart quickly for Alternating Current because moving water's inertia

isn't the same as inductance, and we don't have the hands-on intuitive

experience with AC reversing flows that we do with DC garden hoses.



The analogy that helps me with AC is imagining the pistons and

crankshaft of an engine. The height of one piston represents the

constantly changing voltage of one phase of the power line. If it was

an equally spaced three-cylinder radial engine the other two pistons

would be the other phases. The three pistons (voltages) combine their

push in sequence to force a steady circular rotation of the

crankshaft, which was Tesla's inspiration for introducing AC to spin

motors without needing troublesome brushes.



This makes more sense if you understand sines and cosines.



Residential single-phase 120V is a one-cylinder engine and 240V is an

opposed twin, like a BMW motorcycle. Since they can hang at top dead

center they need a temporary circular push to start in the right

direction, the reason why single phase AC motors need starting

circuits but three phase ones don't.



.jsw

http://lpsa.swarthmore.edu/Analogs/E...alAnalogs.html

On 2014-03-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:01:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
om...

[ ... ]

As a side note...I just wondered why Toms messages arent showing up.
I kinda wondered if he was not on here that much anymore and then I
see his messages in other peoples quotes. What the frack?

He is not in my kill file.

Perhaps he *is*. I've had undesired killfiling thanks to various
wildcarding. This is one reason I have things set up to always see the
list of articles being killfiled along with the passed ones. Sometimes,
I've never figured out why certain things wound up getting killed. :-)

FWIW -- if you are using slrn, the trick to make the killed
articles visible is to set the score to -9998 instead of the default
-9999. They show up on my screen, at least, with the subject and poster
in green instead of white. (And ones with *positive* scores show up in
yellow, IIRC.

And I kill both by poster (in certain cases) and by subject
line, or part of the subject line.

There is a command to force it to show you the line which killed
a given file, but I have lines which really include a couple of hundred
following lines, and it does not show me which of those following lines
actually do the killing. :-(

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 3/1/2014 1:10 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 08:50:58 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:01:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
On 3/1/2014 1:42 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands

Thanks!

Once you are past the basics electronics subdivides into Analog,
Digital, Communications and Power. If your concern is machine tools
you could concentrate on Power components and circuits and don't need
to go very far into the others, which you purchase as modules.

Excellent point, Jim. A real timesaver, I'm sure.


As a side note...I just wondered why Toms messages arent showing up.
I kinda wondered if he was not on here that much anymore and then I
see his messages in other peoples quotes. What the frack?

He is not in my kill file.

He hadn't been on for awhile and his email was dead for awhile, too.
Doublecheck your filters for a plain old "tom", which I had done once.
Some of my filters had dozens of ORs in them, so check closely. BTDT.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams



Hmmm, nothing has changed here. No dead e-mail, still post on
interesting threads...but those are few. This NG is close to being
taken over by a few butt-brains.

On 2014-03-01, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 08:50:58 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:01:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
news:JO2dnWqGtdLxM4zOnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@giganews. com...
On 3/1/2014 1:42 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands

Thanks!

Once you are past the basics electronics subdivides into Analog,
Digital, Communications and Power. If your concern is machine tools
you could concentrate on Power components and circuits and don't need
to go very far into the others, which you purchase as modules.

Excellent point, Jim. A real timesaver, I'm sure.

Another place to learn electronics (though with a different
focus) is in preparing for the FCC ham radio exams. Especially the
first level (technician) covers a lot of the basics. (Along with lots of
rules as to what you can and can't do with your license once you pass
the test -- since it is government, there are *lots* of things which
become rules. :-) But it also gets you started on reading schematic
symbols and such.

The second level -- (general) covers more in the way of
calculating what is what, as well as more general knowledge.

And the third level -- (extra) covers a lot more detailed
calculations (if you have an inductor of value 'X', a capacitor of value
'Y', and a resistor of value 'Z' in series, and apply a frequency of 'J'
MHz, what is the phase relationship between current and voltage. You
even get introduced to weird things like "Smith charts" -- a graphical
way of calculating complex math at high RF frequencies.

I forget which level it is which starts identifying what various
logic circuits do.

And -- yes, you have to pass the lower level exams before you
can take the next level. Technician -- 30 questions. General -- 30
more questions. "extra" -- 50 more questions -- for a total of 110
questions for the three exams combined.

But -- unless you want to be a ham -- you don't need to *take*
the exams (though they are a good way to figure out what you need to
study more of) and you can take them on line as practice exams, with
questions drawn from the same pool as the for real exams, but just a
computer grading you. I went through about a month or so of trying the
practice exams before I went into the real ones. And I learned a lot
form what I got wrong in those practice exams.

I had been an electronics technician for a long time, so just
taking the practice exams worked for me -- just to remind me of the
things which I had forgotten. If you aren't starting from that point,
then the study books from ARRL (or others) would be a good idea.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2014-03-01, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 09:53:39 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 11:13:56 -0600, "RogerN" wrote:

[ ... ]

Also, something I was interested in for boat batteries. Get a gasoline
small engine and mount an automotive alternator, then you can have a
portable battery charger that should be capable of some fairly high current.
For Gunner's 8V batteries, I read about modifying the voltage regulators for
alternators (the kind that have external regulators). IIRC, the basic idea
was to control the output by controlling the power going to the rotor. That
way the alternator, with the right voltage regulator, could be used to
charge 8V batteries on up to 48V golf cart or fork truck batteries.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_mod.html
http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...witworks.shtml

RogerN


Thanks for the links!!

Gunner
Inserting a few diodes in the "sense" lead to the regulator will
raise the charging voltage 3 silicone diodes will raise the voltage by
aprox 2.1 volts - close enough to charge an 8 volt battery with a 6
volt regulator.

Hmm ... if an 8V battery were a *true* 8V -- yes. However,
since the 8V lead-acidej battery is four nominal 2.2V cells, that will
really be 8.8V charged, and closer to 9.6V under charge, depending on
temperature, so you want to boost that regulator's output by 3.6V --
about five diodes total.

And it would be nice to have a current limit in the regulator
chip too, just to be safe. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 21:28:13 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 3/1/2014 1:10 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 08:50:58 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:01:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
On 3/1/2014 1:42 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Just to link to 3..out of many many thousands

Thanks!

Once you are past the basics electronics subdivides into Analog,
Digital, Communications and Power. If your concern is machine tools
you could concentrate on Power components and circuits and don't need
to go very far into the others, which you purchase as modules.

Excellent point, Jim. A real timesaver, I'm sure.


As a side note...I just wondered why Toms messages arent showing up.
I kinda wondered if he was not on here that much anymore and then I
see his messages in other peoples quotes. What the frack?

He is not in my kill file.

He hadn't been on for awhile and his email was dead for awhile, too.
Doublecheck your filters for a plain old "tom", which I had done once.
Some of my filters had dozens of ORs in them, so check closely. BTDT.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams



Hmmm, nothing has changed here. No dead e-mail, still post on
interesting threads...but those are few. This NG is close to being
taken over by a few butt-brains.


Your back!!

I flushed the kill file and you came back!! Yay!!!!


--

"
I was once told by a “gun safety” advocate back in the Nineties
that he favored total civilian firearms confiscation.
Only the military and police should have weapons he averred and what did I think about that?

I began to give him a reasoned answer and he
cut me off with an abrupt, “Give me the short answer.”

I thought for a moment and said, “If you try to take our firearms we will kill you.”"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com