Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old December 31st 13, 10:01 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware


Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".

Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as god as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?

It's not a life-or-death problem, but if anyone has any suggestions I
would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks. And a Happy New Year and a Euphorious Epiphany to all!


Frank McKenney
--
A man who has faith must be prepared not only to be a martyr, but to
be a fool. It is absurd to say that a man is ready to toil and die
for his convictions when he is not even ready to wear a wreath for
them. -- G.K. Chesterton: Christmas and the Aesthetes (1905)
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

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Old January 1st 14, 02:24 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

Den 31-12-2013 23:01, Frnak McKenney skrev:

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".

Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as god as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?

It's not a life-or-death problem, but if anyone has any suggestions I
would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks. And a Happy New Year and a Euphorious Epiphany to all!


Not a fix for the knives but an advise for washing such knives in an
dishwasher.
Did see the problem years ago and a member of the family came up with this:
Knives with blades glued into the handles are to be washed with the
blade downwards.
Did work for me and others in the family for years :-)

--
Uffe
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Old January 1st 14, 12:04 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

Uffe Bærentsen fired this volley in
:

My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.



Normally, only about two or three more knives than the population of the
household ever get used. They get used, washed, and put back in the same
place. By habit and position in the keeping place, they're the ones
picked again next time one is needed.

Over and over. Got ten knives and two people at home? I'll bet fewer
than five ever show any signs of wear.

Lloyd
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Old January 1st 14, 03:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

In article , Frnak
McKenney wrote:

Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


The Gorham line apparently still exists, as a part of the Lenox group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorham_...turing_Company

More generally, any major jeweler and/or manufacturer of silverware
will know what cement is used, and how to re-cement a loose handle.


Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as good as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.


I doubt that a dishwasher can do this to quality silverware, such as
that from Gorham. Lloyd's theory that most of the use is suffered by a
few of the knives may be the answer.

But this may be the answer:

... http://www.silversuperstore.com/faq/silverware_9.html

The effect of the dishwasher may be chemical, caused by the detergent.


Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?


Depending on the age of the silverware, it may or may not be epoxy,
although epoxy may be what's used these days.

The best epoxies cure slowly and require heat for a complete cure and
maximum strength.


Joe Gwinn
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Old January 1st 14, 04:12 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 06:04:27 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Uffe Bærentsen fired this volley in
k:

My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.



Normally, only about two or three more knives than the population of the
household ever get used. They get used, washed, and put back in the same
place. By habit and position in the keeping place, they're the ones
picked again next time one is needed.

Over and over. Got ten knives and two people at home? I'll bet fewer
than five ever show any signs of wear.


That's the way it is here. I've swapped out two steak knives which
got loose from so much wear, but the closest slot to the sink is the
knife which gets picked time and again. The worn knives went to the
back row farthest away from the sink, where I usually open the steak
or roast to let the package bleed and rinse the meat before seasoning
and cooking.


--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu


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Old January 1st 14, 04:28 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 10:34:49 -0500, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Frnak
McKenney wrote:

Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


The Gorham line apparently still exists, as a part of the Lenox group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorham_...turing_Company

More generally, any major jeweler and/or manufacturer of silverware
will know what cement is used, and how to re-cement a loose handle.


Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as good as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.


I doubt that a dishwasher can do this to quality silverware, such as
that from Gorham. Lloyd's theory that most of the use is suffered by a
few of the knives may be the answer.

But this may be the answer:

.. http://www.silversuperstore.com/faq/silverware_9.html

The effect of the dishwasher may be chemical, caused by the detergent.


Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?


Depending on the age of the silverware, it may or may not be epoxy,
although epoxy may be what's used these days.

The best epoxies cure slowly and require heat for a complete cure and
maximum strength.


Joe Gwinn


I recommend Sauereisen cement but I have no idea about where to buy a
small quantity.

http://www.sauereisen.com/AdhesivesP...Compounds.aspx
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Old January 1st 14, 05:44 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 10:34:49 -0500, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Frnak
McKenney wrote:

Are metal-related questions still allowed here? grin!

Christmas brunch was wonderful. My sister and I were invited to eat
with a cousin and her family, and the French Toast -- made with slices
of French bread and peach butter -- was delicious.

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".


The Gorham line apparently still exists, as a part of the Lenox group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorham_...turing_Company

More generally, any major jeweler and/or manufacturer of silverware
will know what cement is used, and how to re-cement a loose handle.


Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as good as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.


I doubt that a dishwasher can do this to quality silverware, such as
that from Gorham. Lloyd's theory that most of the use is suffered by a
few of the knives may be the answer.

But this may be the answer:

.. http://www.silversuperstore.com/faq/silverware_9.html

The effect of the dishwasher may be chemical, caused by the detergent.


Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?


Depending on the age of the silverware, it may or may not be epoxy,
although epoxy may be what's used these days.

The best epoxies cure slowly and require heat for a complete cure and
maximum strength.


Joe Gwinn


I recommend Sauereisen cement but I have no idea about where to buy a
small quantity.

http://www.sauereisen.com/AdhesivesPottingCompounds.aspx


It's good cement, but I doubt that this is what's used.

I bet the original cement was litharge-glycerin. but I bet that's
illegal now, because litharge in lead oxide.

Joe Gwinn
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Old January 1st 14, 06:10 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

Joe Gwinn fired this volley in
:

I bet the original cement was litharge-glycerin. but I bet that's
illegal now, because litharge in lead oxide.


A good cement that isn't toxic is the old "pyro cement" of ages past.

White, hard as stone, and sticks to almost everything.

Calcium carbonate with enough sodium silicate added to make a thick syrup.

Lloyd
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Old January 1st 14, 07:59 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware

In article , Lloyd
E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Joe Gwinn fired this volley in
:

I bet the original cement was litharge-glycerin. but I bet that's
illegal now, because litharge is lead oxide.


A good cement that isn't toxic is the old "pyro cement" of ages past.

White, hard as stone, and sticks to almost everything.

Calcium carbonate with enough sodium silicate added to make a thick syrup.


Never heard of pyro cement, though I had heard of various cements
involving sodium silicate. Some google fu yielded two things, one a
composition of shellac and black powder, used to stick fuses to
pyrotechnic star shells and the like, the other being one part zinc
oxide, one part calcium carbonate, and sufficient water glass (sodium
silicate) to make a slurry.

The key question will be resistance to dishwasher detergents,
especially phosphates and their phosphorus-free replacements.

I bet my old Handbook of Chemistry and Physics will have a formula or
two. But I bet they didn't consider dishwashers.

Joe Gwinn
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Old January 1st 14, 08:00 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Stainless steel, epoxy, and tableware


"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
...
Den 31-12-2013 23:01, Frnak McKenney skrev:

As we sat around the table afterwards, one topic that came up was the
odd look of their stainless tableware, or to be more specific, the
knives. These were made by a company named Gorham (Fairview pattern?)
and had given wonderful service for many years, but recently they had
noticed that some of the knives were "separating": the blade had begun
to separate from the handle, showing a minor gap of roughly 1/8".

Hoping for a simple fix, I spent a couple of hours exploring the 'Web
with different combinations of keywords looking for instructions like
"heat to 400degF for 10 minutes and the epoxy will soften, then gently
press the blade back into the handle and it will be as god as new for
another decade or two". Nope. Most of what I found related to
stainless blades set into sterling handles (not the case here), and
there were more descriptions of how to tear the handle off and sell
the sterling than ideas of how to repair a knife.

Has anyone here ever seen this problem? My cousing said it might be
related to washing the knives in a dishwasher, but only about a
quarter of the knives seem to be affected.

Does anyone know how I could learn about the properties of the "epoxy"
(an assumption, the term pops up a lot)?

It's not a life-or-death problem, but if anyone has any suggestions I
would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks. And a Happy New Year and a Euphorious Epiphany to all!


Not a fix for the knives but an advise for washing such knives in an
dishwasher.
Did see the problem years ago and a member of the family came up with
this:
Knives with blades glued into the handles are to be washed with the blade
downwards.
Did work for me and others in the family for years :-)

--
Uffe


They use epoxy nowadays and if yours are epoxied in, I wouldn't mess with
them until the blades actually fall out.

Traditionally, they used a proprietary mix of rosin, wax, shellac and a
filler like plaster or brickdust. It was called "Handle cement" and is
easily repaired. It is kind of like sealing wax (the kind you used to melt
onto the back of a letter and stamp with a seal).

You have to be careful though. It absorbs moisture over the years and will
foam up and spit the blade out when remelted. The trick is to melt as little
as possible.

The tang on the blade is usually just a rough forged rod, about 3mm in dia
and about 2" (50mm) long.

Wear gloves, use a propane torch and gently heat the 2" section of the
handle and the bottom of the blade. Heat a little, then wait for the heat to
soak into the middle and repeat.
When it gets around 250 f (rough guess) it will start to push the blade out.
when it does shove the parts together and be sure to pay attention to the
alignment. When it is all good, hold still for a couple of minutes while the
cement cools down, then run the handle under lukewarm water.

Excess cement will have oozed out. Chip it off with your thumbnail, any
excess can be removed with alcohol.

Paul K. Dickman




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