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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#41
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 11:10:11 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote: technomaNge on Sat, 14 Sep 2013 21:16:14 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On 09/14/2013 08:32 PM, Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@ 4ax.com: The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun deaths. This is not true. There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. And more than half again as many suicides. The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total number of automobile deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent. Got a cite? I wanna see this for myself. If the number of gun deaths is near the number of automobile deaths, it probably has more to do with safer cars, fewer injury accidents, and better trauma care saving the lives of those who would have died of their injuries a few years ago. technomaNge -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone." I believe it is a factor of the higher efficiency of firearms. There are apparently some 30,000 auto deaths and some 2.3 million adult injuries from auto accidents. On the other hand there were about 30,000 (all causes) deaths and 68,265 injuries from firearms. So one might say that there were some 98,265 deaths and injuries resulting from firearms and some 2,330,000 deaths and injuries resulting from automobiles. -- Cheers, John B. |
#42
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 19:59:53 -0700, "azotic"
wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message news When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more $40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks. Organ harvesting is a better option, gangbangers can finaly do some good. If human organs are monitorized bangers can be harvested and sold on the commodities market just like any other crop. Unemployment would go down and the GDP would go up. The unusable leftovers could be sold as organic fertilizer. A 10% excise tax on these products would be used to compensate crime victims. Yummy liver, rife with AIDs, drug/alcohol poisoning, and herpes. You can have those organs, thanks. Eek! -- Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value. --Albert Einstein |
#43
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On 09/15/2013 06:07 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
If you are talking about Japanese suicides, I'd like a cite as I want to see for myself. My mistake, I was in a hurry, didn't see the reference to Japan, and thought the discussion was still about the US. I withdraw that statement. technomaNge No worries. technomaNge -- |
#44
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On 9/15/2013 6:15 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 21:50:56 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 23:20:05 -0700, a friend wrote: so now we wait for the next columbine or sandy hook - and we will just count up the dead. We get about one of these per year and the rate seems to be increasing. I don't know how many schools, theaters, and shopping malls need to be shot up by crazed gun lovers Oddly enough..it only happens in Gun Free Zones..which you Leftards leave handy for the shooters (almost ALWAYS Democrats btw) to do their dirty work. Im curious..when was the last time a gun show was shot up by a deranged gunman? there was a shooting at a gun show within the last year. And, I don't think colorado is a gun free state, do you guys actually think before you spew insults or are facts a novelty with which you are unacquainted. We could solve the world's energy problems by harvesting the power generated by our founding fathers spinning in their graves over the sheer idiocy of the gun rights lobby all by itself, not to mention the "no education" branch of the right wing, and the Jesus will save me branch which is about as freedom loving as the worst of the Taliban. You guys are a real drag on our economy -- For a $5 dollar donation today you get credit for $10 with HIM |
#45
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 22:55:49 -0700, a friend
wrote: Im curious..when was the last time a gun show was shot up by a deranged gunman? there was a shooting at a gun show within the last year. There sure was. An accidental discharge. Now want to try again? "The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state. Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name. The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy, and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922) |
#46
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 06:21:46 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 04:13:34 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. Only if you consider cops shooting bad guys..and good citizens defending themselves is "murder" You forgot to include the fact that over 80% of those murders are gangbangers killing each other. I'd call that an entirely Good Thing(tm) if it weren't for the fact that too many innocents get hit with the driveby shootings. When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more $40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks. I rather like the idea of making a jail a profit center. I think Mississippi or Louisiana used to have prison farms but why not all jails? Unless, I suppose, actual work is now considered cruel and unusual punishment. -- Cheers, John B. |
#47
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
City folks...
Texas had farms, the inmates used to send letters in from around the state trying to transfer. They had a Rodeo and raised food for the prison itself, and taught many a man a trade. The tough ones were rock pits in the hot west. The farms were in the grassland / tree covered East Texas. The libs shut it down as being a work camp. Gave them Color TV's and iceboxes. Libs liked the motels or something. Martin On 9/16/2013 7:03 AM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 06:21:46 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 04:13:34 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. Only if you consider cops shooting bad guys..and good citizens defending themselves is "murder" You forgot to include the fact that over 80% of those murders are gangbangers killing each other. I'd call that an entirely Good Thing(tm) if it weren't for the fact that too many innocents get hit with the driveby shootings. When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more $40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks. I rather like the idea of making a jail a profit center. I think Mississippi or Louisiana used to have prison farms but why not all jails? Unless, I suppose, actual work is now considered cruel and unusual punishment. -- Cheers, John B. |
#48
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 20:30:55 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote: City folks... Texas had farms, the inmates used to send letters in from around the state trying to transfer. They had a Rodeo and raised food for the prison itself, and taught many a man a trade. The tough ones were rock pits in the hot west. The farms were in the grassland / tree covered East Texas. The libs shut it down as being a work camp. Gave them Color TV's and iceboxes. Libs liked the motels or something. Martin On 9/16/2013 7:03 AM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 06:21:46 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 04:13:34 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. Only if you consider cops shooting bad guys..and good citizens defending themselves is "murder" You forgot to include the fact that over 80% of those murders are gangbangers killing each other. I'd call that an entirely Good Thing(tm) if it weren't for the fact that too many innocents get hit with the driveby shootings. When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more $40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks. I rather like the idea of making a jail a profit center. I think Mississippi or Louisiana used to have prison farms but why not all jails? Unless, I suppose, actual work is now considered cruel and unusual punishment. -- Cheers, John B. Many years ago someone interviewed Lee Kuan Yew, who was Prime Minister at the time, about the prisoners in Singapore's Changi Prison. The interviewer mentioned that he had been informed that the prisoners slept on thin mats on the cell floors and were awoken by a siren and were made to fold up their bedding and were not allowed to sit or lie on the floor until lights out that night. Lee replied that these are criminals who are being punished for their crimes, "and we want them to understand that". I found that a refreshing viewpoint. -- Cheers, John B. |
#49
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 20:30:55 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote: City folks... Texas had farms, the inmates used to send letters in from around the state trying to transfer. They had a Rodeo and raised food for the prison itself, and taught many a man a trade. Trades the farmers use illegal aliens for now. Honest labor gives a previously worthless man true self-esteem. Things like that can't be bought. It's a real shame those _voluntary_ programs are gone. The tough ones were rock pits in the hot west. The farms were in the grassland / tree covered East Texas. The libs shut it down as being a work camp. Gave them Color TV's and iceboxes. ....and ginormous legal libraries, and well-stocked weight rooms and exercise gyms, to the point that living in there was better than living on the streets for many inmates, who would commit crimes to be returned as soon as they got out. I like Joe Arpaio's jail better. Maricopa County, AZ is not some place you'd want to find yourself in prison, since it consisted of canvas tents in the desert, complete with pink inmate suits, no TV, etc. His recidivism rate was nearly zero. THAT is what the rest of those idiots should be after, not the coddling of damned criminals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio Folks in the county reelected him four times, they liked him so well, so don't give the criticism too much study. He hated the egotistical FBI and useless guidelines by bureaucrats quite a bit. Libs liked the motels or something. Huh? Oh, I guess you're comparing prisons to motels libs stayed in. Yeah, you're probably right. Morons. They should have worked at making the damned places safe for the little bad guys, who are still abused horribly when they get to prison. I doubt you'll ever hear one tell a lib "Well, I'm getting raped every day, sometimes by multiple guys (some of whom have AIDS or other STDs) but the big screen TV sure is nice. Thanks, guys!" -- Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value. --Albert Einstein |
#50
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
John B. wrote in news:rruc39h1q0j6915mratkjd25gjvmkogs16@
4ax.com: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:50:20 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:lg7b39himjt7mektqorjq403qf1ba8p9mg@ 4ax.com: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@ 4ax.com: The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun deaths. This is not true. There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. And more than half again as many suicides. The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total number of automobile deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent. I see, you want to count those who have decided that life is no longer living? I assume that you believe that without a gun they would not be able to kill themselves? I want to correct a false statement, that is all. The claim that there are 11,000 gun deaths in the US annually is false. Technically correct but on the other hand, if someone hangs themselves do we call it a "rope death"? Or slashes them with a razor blade a "razor death"? Or do we just say "they killed themselves"? Beside the point. When an anti-gun activist says that guns kill [almost] as many people as cars every year, he's telling the truth -- and if you say, no, that's not so, it's only one-third as much, he *has* the statistics to prove his figure. You don't. What you need to counter that is the knowledge that yes, in fact, there are nearly as many firearm deaths as automobile deaths annually -- but what the anti-gun activist probably does *not* know is that about *two thirds* of them are suicides, and very few of them are accidents. Bottom line: make sure you have *all* the facts before engaging in debate. |
#51
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 01:34:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote: John B. wrote in news:rruc39h1q0j6915mratkjd25gjvmkogs16@ 4ax.com: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:50:20 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:lg7b39himjt7mektqorjq403qf1ba8p9mg@ 4ax.com: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@ 4ax.com: The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun deaths. This is not true. There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. And more than half again as many suicides. The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total number of automobile deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent. I see, you want to count those who have decided that life is no longer living? I assume that you believe that without a gun they would not be able to kill themselves? I want to correct a false statement, that is all. The claim that there are 11,000 gun deaths in the US annually is false. Technically correct but on the other hand, if someone hangs themselves do we call it a "rope death"? Or slashes them with a razor blade a "razor death"? Or do we just say "they killed themselves"? Beside the point. When an anti-gun activist says that guns kill [almost] as many people as cars every year, he's telling the truth -- and if you say, no, that's not so, it's only one-third as much, he *has* the statistics to prove his figure. You don't. What you need to counter that is the knowledge that yes, in fact, there are nearly as many firearm deaths as automobile deaths annually -- but what the anti-gun activist probably does *not* know is that about *two thirds* of them are suicides, and very few of them are accidents. Bottom line: make sure you have *all* the facts before engaging in debate. Firstly, I really don't give a **** what the anti-gun mob has to say. If they acted even halfway rationally I might listen but they don't. And, for that matter, neither do many of the pro gun lot. Your insistence in quoting the suicides as gun deaths is, while basically correct in that they died, as a result of shooting themselves, the implication is that you are seizing on a number to bolster an argument. After all, we don't rush about counting "Bed Deaths", when, in fact, the vast majority of people who die in the United States die in bed, which makes as much sense as counting suicides when counting anything. Or, perhaps we should ban beds, then perhaps all those people wouldn't have died? -- Cheers, John B. |
#52
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
John B. wrote in news:hh3j39593g8rp6gdeuccdsjd0ocbtmv84h@
4ax.com: Your insistence in quoting the suicides as gun deaths is, while basically correct in that they died, as a result of shooting themselves, the implication is that you are seizing on a number to bolster an argument. The only "implication" you should take out of this is that your claim that there are only about 11,000 gun deaths in the US annually is a falsehood. There are about 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. |
#53
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...
"John B." wrote in message ... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 01:34:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:rruc39h1q0j6915mratkjd25gjvmkogs16@ 4ax.com: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:50:20 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:lg7b39himjt7mektqorjq403qf1ba8p9mg@ 4ax.com: On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller wrote: John B. wrote in news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@ 4ax.com: The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun deaths. This is not true. There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually. And more than half again as many suicides. The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total number of automobile deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent. I see, you want to count those who have decided that life is no longer living? I assume that you believe that without a gun they would not be able to kill themselves? I want to correct a false statement, that is all. The claim that there are 11,000 gun deaths in the US annually is false. Technically correct but on the other hand, if someone hangs themselves do we call it a "rope death"? Or slashes them with a razor blade a "razor death"? Or do we just say "they killed themselves"? Beside the point. When an anti-gun activist says that guns kill [almost] as many people as cars every year, he's telling the truth -- and if you say, no, that's not so, it's only one-third as much, he *has* the statistics to prove his figure. You don't. What you need to counter that is the knowledge that yes, in fact, there are nearly as many firearm deaths as automobile deaths annually -- but what the anti-gun activist probably does *not* know is that about *two thirds* of them are suicides, and very few of them are accidents. Bottom line: make sure you have *all* the facts before engaging in debate. Firstly, I really don't give a **** what the anti-gun mob has to say. Hogwash, you would not be responding at all if that were the case. If they acted even halfway rationally I might listen but they don't. You're the one that's being irrational; does not matter whether self-inflicted or accidental, statistically, the total number of death by firearms MUST include all of them. Only then can you further classify the data. And, for that matter, neither do many of the pro gun lot. Yeah--they almost ALWAYS want to ignore the fact that bona-fide self-defense shootings happen to comprise only a VERY small percentage of overall deaths where guns are involved. --once you subtract suicides, almost all of them are murders. Your insistence in quoting the suicides as gun deaths is, while basically correct in that they died, as a result of shooting themselves, the implication is that you are seizing on a number to bolster an argument. After all, we don't rush about counting "Bed Deaths", when, in fact, the vast majority of people who die in the United States die in bed, which makes as much sense as counting suicides when counting anything. When people start robbing banks, commiting suicide or otherwise commiting assaults by clobbering themselves or each other over the head with an "assault bed" then you might have a valid arguement. Or, perhaps we should ban beds, then perhaps all those people wouldn't have died? Here is some justifiable homicide data for the year 2005, there is probably more up to date info but I doubt there has been a tremendous change since that time. I'm making the assumption that the overwhelming majority of these homicides were by firearms although probably at least a few of them were by other means. http://www.bjs.gov/content/homicide/justify.cfm Total including police action for that year appears to be about 550 and is it about 200 when you include only citizens. Total gun deaths for that year were about 31,000 of which around 1/2 were suicides which leaves us with a total of about 15,000 In other words, out of the approximately 14,650 citizens that were killed with a gun by another citizen, only about 200 of them were justifiable. In that same year, there were 789 unintentional firearms deaths in the US: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states So, if we round this number upwards to 200, it becomes clearly evident that on average, your garden variety, law-abiding gun owner is statistically about 4 times more likely to cause an accidental death than he is to shoot some bad guy in a case of justifiable homicide. Below is a paper covering domestic violence statistics for the year 2002: bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvs02.pdf It can be seen that about 22% of murders in that year were acts of domestic violence and that firearms were used in around 1/2 or 11% of of them and so it should become fairly evident that your odds shooting someone in an act of justifiable homicide as opposed to being shot by or shooting a family member or there occurring a suicide in the family are pretty darned slim considering that if memory serves me, justifiable homicides including police action only constitute around 1.8% of total gun deaths and if you exclude police actions the number comes out to be about .66% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio..._United_States A ) in 2010, there were a total of 12,996 reported murders, and about 1/2 of them occurred during the commission of some other felonious act. B ) In 2010, a total of 780 murders occurred during the commission of a robbery, which calculates out to be 6% of all murders C ) In that same year, 3396 of all murders ( 26% ) occurred due to an argument over money, property or other. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...10shrtbl12.xls About 35% of murders in the US are never solved... http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/...ved-homicides/ About 49% of the solved cases were committed by someone that did not have any previous felony convictions; presumably it was perfectly legal for them to own a gun. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt In most localities, it is completely legal for a private individual to sell guns and ammunition to a perfect stranger without any background checks whatsoever, the reality being that this is exactly what happens every single weekend at gun shows and sporting expositions across much of the nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_sho..._United_States |
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