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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 11:10:11 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

technomaNge on Sat, 14 Sep 2013 21:16:14 -0500 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 09/14/2013 08:32 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
John B. wrote in news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@
4ax.com:

The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and
injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun
deaths.

This is not true.

There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually.

And more than half again as many suicides.

The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total number of automobile
deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent.


Got a cite? I wanna see this for myself.


If the number of gun deaths is near the number of automobile
deaths, it probably has more to do with safer cars, fewer injury
accidents, and better trauma care saving the lives of those who would
have died of their injuries a few years ago.


technomaNge

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


I believe it is a factor of the higher efficiency of firearms. There
are apparently some 30,000 auto deaths and some 2.3 million adult
injuries from auto accidents. On the other hand there were about
30,000 (all causes) deaths and 68,265 injuries from firearms.

So one might say that there were some 98,265 deaths and injuries
resulting from firearms and some 2,330,000 deaths and injuries
resulting from automobiles.
--
Cheers,

John B.
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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 19:59:53 -0700, "azotic"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news

When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more
$40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to
the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks.


Organ harvesting is a better option, gangbangers can finaly
do some good. If human organs are monitorized bangers
can be harvested and sold on the commodities market just
like any other crop. Unemployment would go down and
the GDP would go up. The unusable leftovers could be
sold as organic fertilizer. A 10% excise tax on these
products would be used to compensate crime victims.


Yummy liver, rife with AIDs, drug/alcohol poisoning, and herpes.
You can have those organs, thanks. Eek!

--
Try not to become a man of success but
rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein
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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

On 09/15/2013 06:07 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

If you are talking about Japanese suicides, I'd like a cite
as I want to see for myself.


My mistake, I was in a hurry, didn't see the reference to Japan, and thought the discussion
was still about the US. I withdraw that statement.


technomaNge




No worries.


technomaNge
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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

On 9/15/2013 6:15 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 21:50:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 23:20:05 -0700, a friend
wrote:


so now we wait for the next columbine or sandy hook - and we will just
count up the dead. We get about one of these per year and the rate
seems to be increasing. I don't know how many schools, theaters, and
shopping malls need to be shot up by crazed gun lovers


Oddly enough..it only happens in Gun Free Zones..which you Leftards
leave handy for the shooters (almost ALWAYS Democrats btw) to do their
dirty work.

Im curious..when was the last time a gun show was shot up by a
deranged gunman?


there was a shooting at a gun show within the last year. And, I don't
think colorado is a gun free state, do you guys actually think before
you spew insults or are facts a novelty with which you are unacquainted.

We could solve the world's energy problems by harvesting the power
generated by our founding fathers spinning in their graves over the
sheer idiocy of the gun rights lobby all by itself, not to mention the
"no education" branch of the right wing, and the Jesus will save me
branch which is about as freedom loving as the worst of the Taliban.
You guys are a real drag on our economy




--
For a $5 dollar donation today you get credit for $10 with HIM
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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 22:55:49 -0700, a friend
wrote:


Im curious..when was the last time a gun show was shot up by a
deranged gunman?


there was a shooting at a gun show within the last year.


There sure was. An accidental discharge.

Now want to try again?


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)


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On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 06:21:46 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 04:13:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:


There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually.


Only if you consider cops shooting bad guys..and good citizens
defending themselves is "murder"


You forgot to include the fact that over 80% of those murders are
gangbangers killing each other. I'd call that an entirely Good
Thing(tm) if it weren't for the fact that too many innocents get hit
with the driveby shootings.

When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more
$40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to
the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks.


I rather like the idea of making a jail a profit center. I think
Mississippi or Louisiana used to have prison farms but why not all
jails?

Unless, I suppose, actual work is now considered cruel and unusual
punishment.

--
Cheers,

John B.
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City folks...

Texas had farms, the inmates used to send letters in from around
the state trying to transfer. They had a Rodeo and raised food
for the prison itself, and taught many a man a trade.

The tough ones were rock pits in the hot west. The farms were in
the grassland / tree covered East Texas.

The libs shut it down as being a work camp. Gave them Color TV's
and iceboxes. Libs liked the motels or something.

Martin

On 9/16/2013 7:03 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 06:21:46 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 04:13:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:


There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually.

Only if you consider cops shooting bad guys..and good citizens
defending themselves is "murder"


You forgot to include the fact that over 80% of those murders are
gangbangers killing each other. I'd call that an entirely Good
Thing(tm) if it weren't for the fact that too many innocents get hit
with the driveby shootings.

When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more
$40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to
the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks.


I rather like the idea of making a jail a profit center. I think
Mississippi or Louisiana used to have prison farms but why not all
jails?

Unless, I suppose, actual work is now considered cruel and unusual
punishment.

--
Cheers,

John B.

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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 20:30:55 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

City folks...

Texas had farms, the inmates used to send letters in from around
the state trying to transfer. They had a Rodeo and raised food
for the prison itself, and taught many a man a trade.

The tough ones were rock pits in the hot west. The farms were in
the grassland / tree covered East Texas.

The libs shut it down as being a work camp. Gave them Color TV's
and iceboxes. Libs liked the motels or something.

Martin

On 9/16/2013 7:03 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 06:21:46 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 04:13:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:


There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually.

Only if you consider cops shooting bad guys..and good citizens
defending themselves is "murder"

You forgot to include the fact that over 80% of those murders are
gangbangers killing each other. I'd call that an entirely Good
Thing(tm) if it weren't for the fact that too many innocents get hit
with the driveby shootings.

When I'm king, gang membership will be a hanging offense. No more
$40k/yr (per offender) warehousing costs before they're returned to
the streets with even more evil skills and deadly attitude, thanks.


I rather like the idea of making a jail a profit center. I think
Mississippi or Louisiana used to have prison farms but why not all
jails?

Unless, I suppose, actual work is now considered cruel and unusual
punishment.

--
Cheers,

John B.


Many years ago someone interviewed Lee Kuan Yew, who was Prime
Minister at the time, about the prisoners in Singapore's Changi
Prison. The interviewer mentioned that he had been informed that the
prisoners slept on thin mats on the cell floors and were awoken by a
siren and were made to fold up their bedding and were not allowed to
sit or lie on the floor until lights out that night.

Lee replied that these are criminals who are being punished for their
crimes, "and we want them to understand that".

I found that a refreshing viewpoint.
--
Cheers,

John B.
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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 20:30:55 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

City folks...

Texas had farms, the inmates used to send letters in from around
the state trying to transfer. They had a Rodeo and raised food
for the prison itself, and taught many a man a trade.


Trades the farmers use illegal aliens for now. Honest labor gives a
previously worthless man true self-esteem. Things like that can't be
bought. It's a real shame those _voluntary_ programs are gone.


The tough ones were rock pits in the hot west. The farms were in
the grassland / tree covered East Texas.

The libs shut it down as being a work camp. Gave them Color TV's
and iceboxes.


....and ginormous legal libraries, and well-stocked weight rooms and
exercise gyms, to the point that living in there was better than
living on the streets for many inmates, who would commit crimes to be
returned as soon as they got out. I like Joe Arpaio's jail better.
Maricopa County, AZ is not some place you'd want to find yourself in
prison, since it consisted of canvas tents in the desert, complete
with pink inmate suits, no TV, etc. His recidivism rate was nearly
zero. THAT is what the rest of those idiots should be after, not the
coddling of damned criminals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio Folks in the county reelected
him four times, they liked him so well, so don't give the criticism
too much study. He hated the egotistical FBI and useless guidelines
by bureaucrats quite a bit.


Libs liked the motels or something.


Huh? Oh, I guess you're comparing prisons to motels libs stayed in.
Yeah, you're probably right. Morons. They should have worked at
making the damned places safe for the little bad guys, who are still
abused horribly when they get to prison. I doubt you'll ever hear one
tell a lib "Well, I'm getting raped every day, sometimes by multiple
guys (some of whom have AIDS or other STDs) but the big screen TV sure
is nice. Thanks, guys!"


--
Try not to become a man of success but
rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein
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Default BYE BYE to the anti gun twins...

John B. wrote in news:rruc39h1q0j6915mratkjd25gjvmkogs16@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:50:20 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in

news:lg7b39himjt7mektqorjq403qf1ba8p9mg@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in

news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@
4ax.com:

The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and
injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun
deaths.

This is not true.

There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually.

And more than half again as many suicides.

The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total number of

automobile
deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent.

I see, you want to count those who have decided that life is no longer
living? I assume that you believe that without a gun they would not
be able to kill themselves?


I want to correct a false statement, that is all. The claim that there are 11,000 gun deaths in
the US annually is false.

Technically correct but on the other hand, if someone hangs themselves
do we call it a "rope death"? Or slashes them with a razor blade a
"razor death"? Or do we just say "they killed themselves"?


Beside the point. When an anti-gun activist says that guns kill [almost] as many people as
cars every year, he's telling the truth -- and if you say, no, that's not so, it's only one-third as
much, he *has* the statistics to prove his figure. You don't. What you need to counter that is
the knowledge that yes, in fact, there are nearly as many firearm deaths as automobile
deaths annually -- but what the anti-gun activist probably does *not* know is that about *two
thirds* of them are suicides, and very few of them are accidents.

Bottom line: make sure you have *all* the facts before engaging in debate.


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On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 01:34:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in news:rruc39h1q0j6915mratkjd25gjvmkogs16@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:50:20 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in

news:lg7b39himjt7mektqorjq403qf1ba8p9mg@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in
news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@
4ax.com:

The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and
injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun
deaths.

This is not true.

There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually.

And more than half again as many suicides.

The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total number of

automobile
deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent.

I see, you want to count those who have decided that life is no longer
living? I assume that you believe that without a gun they would not
be able to kill themselves?

I want to correct a false statement, that is all. The claim that there are 11,000 gun deaths in
the US annually is false.

Technically correct but on the other hand, if someone hangs themselves
do we call it a "rope death"? Or slashes them with a razor blade a
"razor death"? Or do we just say "they killed themselves"?


Beside the point. When an anti-gun activist says that guns kill [almost] as many people as
cars every year, he's telling the truth -- and if you say, no, that's not so, it's only one-third as
much, he *has* the statistics to prove his figure. You don't. What you need to counter that is
the knowledge that yes, in fact, there are nearly as many firearm deaths as automobile
deaths annually -- but what the anti-gun activist probably does *not* know is that about *two
thirds* of them are suicides, and very few of them are accidents.

Bottom line: make sure you have *all* the facts before engaging in debate.


Firstly, I really don't give a **** what the anti-gun mob has to say.
If they acted even halfway rationally I might listen but they don't.
And, for that matter, neither do many of the pro gun lot.

Your insistence in quoting the suicides as gun deaths is, while
basically correct in that they died, as a result of shooting
themselves, the implication is that you are seizing on a number to
bolster an argument. After all, we don't rush about counting "Bed
Deaths", when, in fact, the vast majority of people who die in the
United States die in bed, which makes as much sense as counting
suicides when counting anything.

Or, perhaps we should ban beds, then perhaps all those people wouldn't
have died?
--
Cheers,

John B.
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John B. wrote in news:hh3j39593g8rp6gdeuccdsjd0ocbtmv84h@
4ax.com:

Your insistence in quoting the suicides as gun deaths is, while
basically correct in that they died, as a result of shooting
themselves, the implication is that you are seizing on a number to
bolster an argument.


The only "implication" you should take out of this is that your claim that there are only about
11,000 gun deaths in the US annually is a falsehood.

There are about 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S. annually.
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"John B." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 01:34:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in
news:rruc39h1q0j6915mratkjd25gjvmkogs16@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:50:20 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in

news:lg7b39himjt7mektqorjq403qf1ba8p9mg@
4ax.com:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:32:58 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in
news:8oa339ps4tntimq4geqaljdj9kmbt0g2mn@
4ax.com:

The U.S. kills some 37,000 people annually in auto accidents and
injures an additional 2.35 million. Versus a miserable 11,000 gun
deaths.

This is not true.

There are approximately 10,000 to 11,000 gun *murders* in the U.S.
annually.

And more than half again as many suicides.

The total number of gun deaths in the U.S. is very close to the total
number of

automobile
deaths. Not quite, but very close -- within less than ten percent.

I see, you want to count those who have decided that life is no longer
living? I assume that you believe that without a gun they would not
be able to kill themselves?

I want to correct a false statement, that is all. The claim that there
are 11,000 gun deaths in
the US annually is false.

Technically correct but on the other hand, if someone hangs themselves
do we call it a "rope death"? Or slashes them with a razor blade a
"razor death"? Or do we just say "they killed themselves"?


Beside the point. When an anti-gun activist says that guns kill [almost]
as many people as
cars every year, he's telling the truth -- and if you say, no, that's not
so, it's only one-third as
much, he *has* the statistics to prove his figure. You don't. What you
need to counter that is
the knowledge that yes, in fact, there are nearly as many firearm deaths
as automobile
deaths annually -- but what the anti-gun activist probably does *not* know
is that about *two
thirds* of them are suicides, and very few of them are accidents.

Bottom line: make sure you have *all* the facts before engaging in debate.


Firstly, I really don't give a **** what the anti-gun mob has to say.


Hogwash, you would not be responding at all if that were the case.

If they acted even halfway rationally I might listen but they don't.


You're the one that's being irrational; does not matter whether
self-inflicted or accidental, statistically, the total number of death by
firearms MUST include all of them.

Only then can you further classify the data.

And, for that matter, neither do many of the pro gun lot.


Yeah--they almost ALWAYS want to ignore the fact that bona-fide self-defense
shootings happen to comprise only a VERY small percentage of overall deaths
where guns are involved.

--once you subtract suicides, almost all of them are murders.

Your insistence in quoting the suicides as gun deaths is, while
basically correct in that they died, as a result of shooting
themselves, the implication is that you are seizing on a number to
bolster an argument. After all, we don't rush about counting "Bed
Deaths", when, in fact, the vast majority of people who die in the
United States die in bed, which makes as much sense as counting
suicides when counting anything.


When people start robbing banks, commiting suicide or otherwise commiting
assaults by clobbering themselves or each other over the head with an
"assault bed" then you might have a valid arguement.

Or, perhaps we should ban beds, then perhaps all those people wouldn't
have died?


Here is some justifiable homicide data for the year 2005, there is probably
more up to date info but I doubt there has been a tremendous change since
that time.

I'm making the assumption that the overwhelming majority of these homicides
were by firearms although probably at least a few of them were by other
means.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/homicide/justify.cfm

Total including police action for that year appears to be about 550 and is
it about 200 when you include only citizens.

Total gun deaths for that year were about 31,000 of which around 1/2 were
suicides which leaves us with a total of about 15,000

In other words, out of the approximately 14,650 citizens that were killed
with a gun by another citizen, only about 200 of them were justifiable.

In that same year, there were 789 unintentional firearms deaths in the US:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

So, if we round this number upwards to 200, it becomes clearly evident that
on average, your garden variety, law-abiding gun owner is statistically
about 4 times more likely to cause an accidental death than he is to shoot
some bad guy in a case of justifiable homicide.

Below is a paper covering domestic violence statistics for the year 2002:

bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvs02.pdf

It can be seen that about 22% of murders in that year were acts of domestic
violence and that firearms were used in around 1/2 or 11% of of them and so
it should become fairly evident that your odds shooting someone in an act of
justifiable homicide as opposed to being shot by or shooting a family member
or there occurring a suicide in the family are pretty darned slim
considering that if memory serves me, justifiable homicides including police
action only constitute around 1.8% of total gun deaths and if you exclude
police actions the number comes out to be about .66%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio..._United_States

A ) in 2010, there were a total of 12,996 reported murders, and about 1/2 of
them occurred during the commission of some other felonious act.

B ) In 2010, a total of 780 murders occurred during the commission of a
robbery, which calculates out to be 6% of all murders

C ) In that same year, 3396 of all murders ( 26% ) occurred due to an
argument over money, property or other.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...10shrtbl12.xls

About 35% of murders in the US are never solved...

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/...ved-homicides/

About 49% of the solved cases were committed by someone that did not have
any previous felony convictions; presumably it was perfectly legal for them
to own a gun.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt

In most localities, it is completely legal for a private individual to sell
guns and ammunition to a perfect stranger without any background checks
whatsoever, the reality being that this is exactly what happens every single
weekend at gun shows and sporting expositions across much of the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_sho..._United_States



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