Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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On 9/1/2013 10:41 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 09:58:37 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 9:44 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


There is always work to be done.


Yes there is. It expands to fit the time available.


Nope. There is always meaningful work to be done. The Lump of Labor
fallacy *is* a fallacy, after all.

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On 9/1/2013 10:43 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.


Same here.


It isn't a problem. It never has been.


I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.


Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.


Wrong. People would do things that formerly weren't done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

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On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.


Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.


Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:55:03 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 10:43 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.


Same here.


It isn't a problem. It never has been.


I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.


Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.


Wrong. People would do things that formerly weren't done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy


The "lump of labor" issue deals well with increases in labor supply
and with a historical consequence of technological changes affecting
productivity. But it's contradicted by the increasing GINI coefficient
and the stagnation of middle-class wages and salaries. Something is
changing.

There is a hollowing-out of the middle class going on. The arguments
against the "lump of labor fallacy" say that shouldn't happen.

As Tom says, the goal is to take the "art" out of production. And as
Iggy says, there are more middle-class jobs that can be handled by
computers.

We've seen some of the consequences already. There simply are no
compensating numbers of new jobs in the middle range of skill and
income, even though there are plenty of jobs at the bottom end, and a
few more at the top.

--
Ed Huntress
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.


Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.


Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?


The idea was based on historical experience with incremental advances
in production technology. In most cases, it just meant that one worker
could produce more. Now it often means that you don't need a worker at
all. For that, one needs a new theory.



It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i



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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.


My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i


One simply looks at Pepsi and Coke to see how far automation can be
carried.
"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.


Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.


Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i


You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well every
night..because when they sold out in California..they made enough
money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have money in the
bank.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.

Shrug

Gunner

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:


It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i


You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well every
night..because when they sold out in California


Why haven't you done that? Oh yeah, because you're a no talent full of
**** moron.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...


Your niche is posting lies to Usenet. It doesn't show any signs of
folding.

Im pretty good at what I do.


No, you're not. Making fun of your ridiculous lies is easy.
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On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.

Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?


The idea was based on historical experience with incremental advances
in production technology. In most cases, it just meant that one worker
could produce more. Now it often means that you don't need a worker at
all. For that, one needs a new theory.


Exactly. And "more education" and "job retraining" is often not the
answer. Let's say that you have a person of modest abilities, who was
replaced by a computer. Even though you could teach that person a new
skill, you could teach a computer a new skill as well, so the computer
wins anyway.

I do not have any solutions, but I do have apprehension.

i
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:51:53 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 10:41 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 09:58:37 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 9:44 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?

There is always work to be done.


Yes there is. It expands to fit the time available.


Nope. There is always meaningful work to be done. The Lump of Labor
fallacy *is* a fallacy, after all.


I'm not sure that is a universal truth. I've lived in several foreign
countries where there simply aren't jobs for everyone.
--
Cheers,

John B.


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On 2013-09-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
wrote:

Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.


You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.


Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow
process, but inevitable.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well
every night..because when they sold out in California..they made
enough money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have
money in the bank.


I am not convinced that making custom gun parts is a good
business. Too many people wanting to be in that.

Making custom medical parts, may be indeed a winner for a while.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.

There is no place to hide.

i
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:04:31 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
wrote:

Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.


You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.


Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow
process, but inevitable.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well
every night..because when they sold out in California..they made
enough money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have
money in the bank.


I am not convinced that making custom gun parts is a good
business. Too many people wanting to be in that.


Ayup. Same with farmers, boot makers, doctors etc etc.

Making custom medical parts, may be indeed a winner for a while.


Once they get snugged into their niche...the others are second place
winners

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.

There is no place to hide.

i

No..there certainly isnt. And its NOT going to get any better any
time soon. The Left has cut the foundation from under this nation and
the already tottering structure is about ready to collapse.

One hopes you have enough land to grow crops on..you may need it
before long.


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.

Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i


You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well every
night..because when they sold out in California..they made enough
money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have money in the
bank.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 08:59:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:51:53 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 10:41 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 09:58:37 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 9:44 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?

There is always work to be done.

Yes there is. It expands to fit the time available.


Nope. There is always meaningful work to be done. The Lump of Labor
fallacy *is* a fallacy, after all.


I'm not sure that is a universal truth. I've lived in several foreign
countries where there simply aren't jobs for everyone.

Likewize. There may be WORK for everyone, but not jobs. Work for no
pay or gain is not a job. Lots of available "work" but very few "jobs"
in Burkina Faso, Zambia, and other poor third world countries.

The problem is, in a society where everyone wants a "job" a lot of the
"work" that needs to be done never gets done.

Volunteer "work" gives a man purpose, even if it dies not provide him
any gain..

Someone who has proved they are capable of and not afraid of "work"
often gets a "job" out of it. The lazy one who sits around waiting
for a "job" but does no "work" can be easily overlooked.
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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:08:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.

Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i


You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well every
night..because when they sold out in California..they made enough
money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have money in the
bank.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


Im almost 60..and Ive made 9 career changes..big ones in the past 45
yrs.

Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.

I suspect its because im (dont tell anyone..but I think Im slightly
depressed) not going anywhere and at a wobbling pace and am simply
tired of being tired of the same old **** each week, both in my
personal and professional life. The high point of this year has
been..as best as I can recall...buying that used $200 sailboat a few
weeks ago. I starved for 2 weeks to buy it...no one else in the family
gave up a ****ing thing...but I worked for it.

So..Ive not had a lot to be happy about. Shrug. **** happens and
then you die.

Gunner

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)


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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 00:33:56 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 08:59:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:51:53 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 10:41 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 09:58:37 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 9:44 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?

There is always work to be done.

Yes there is. It expands to fit the time available.

Nope. There is always meaningful work to be done. The Lump of Labor
fallacy *is* a fallacy, after all.


I'm not sure that is a universal truth. I've lived in several foreign
countries where there simply aren't jobs for everyone.

Likewize. There may be WORK for everyone, but not jobs. Work for no
pay or gain is not a job. Lots of available "work" but very few "jobs"
in Burkina Faso, Zambia, and other poor third world countries.

The problem is, in a society where everyone wants a "job" a lot of the
"work" that needs to be done never gets done.

Volunteer "work" gives a man purpose, even if it dies not provide him
any gain..

Someone who has proved they are capable of and not afraid of "work"
often gets a "job" out of it. The lazy one who sits around waiting
for a "job" but does no "work" can be easily overlooked.



Its not just in foreign countries. Far too many of us are busting our
ass finding work..and then its so damned little it barely covers the
fuel to go to that work.

Ah but if the Shining Times ever return......!!

Shrug

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)
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On 9/1/2013 12:38 PM, Ignoramus27947 wrote:
On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.


My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i


Oh I agree...just not for my operation. That's the trouble with a lot
of my processes, there just isn't the volume to crack the nut.
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On 9/1/2013 12:44 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.


My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i


Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


When nanites make and do everything, people can do what they always
wanted to do...sit in front of the tube and vege-out 24/7 from 6th grade on.
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On 9/1/2013 4:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:55:03 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 10:43 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.

Same here.


It isn't a problem. It never has been.


I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.


Wrong. People would do things that formerly weren't done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy


The "lump of labor" issue deals well with increases in labor supply
and with a historical consequence of technological changes affecting
productivity. But it's contradicted by the increasing GINI coefficient
and the stagnation of middle-class wages and salaries. Something is
changing.

There is a hollowing-out of the middle class going on. The arguments
against the "lump of labor fallacy" say that shouldn't happen.

As Tom says, the goal is to take the "art" out of production. And as
Iggy says, there are more middle-class jobs that can be handled by
computers.

We've seen some of the consequences already. There simply are no
compensating numbers of new jobs in the middle range of skill and
income, even though there are plenty of jobs at the bottom end, and a
few more at the top.



Ever since I was very young, wheel brushes were wound by hand. In the
early 70's, one legendary winder operator made $350 per week in bonus
over and above his salary. That was good money back then. Today, a
good winder will make 1/5 as many parts even though I've raised the
bonus and lowered the bonus threshold. People just won't do more than
they have to in order not to get fired. THAT'S why I automated the
production and eliminated the "Art" factor. I accept the fact that it's
a different time now, never to go back to the old ways. AND, the new
ways are better...but not for jobs. I wonder...more and more people and
less and less manufacturing jobs. Agriculture is the same, mining and
oil is the same. Wealth creation does not rely on large numbers of
people anymore and the skill set if way different. Could that be why
wealth is being more and more concentrated?
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On 9/2/2013 12:08 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.

Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i


You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.


Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well every
night..because when they sold out in California..they made enough
money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have money in the
bank.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt


I remember that book! Did you ever read "The Goal"? I learned a lot
from that simple book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goal_(novel)




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On Sunday, September 1, 2013 10:04:31 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus27947 wrote:

Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow

process, but inevitable.


I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.



There is no place to hide.



i


This discussion has been about wages, and finding good jobs is getting more and more dificult. Computers eliminate jobs in two ways. One is where the computer does the work that used to be done by a human. The other is where the computer increases the productivity. An example of this is the Draftman. A draftman is now much more productive than when drawings were made on vellum using ink. I have no good solution for finding good jobs, except to say that one needs to constantly work at staying current in your field. I had a lot of experience with that as the estimate is that half of what an electrical engineer knows is obsolete every seven years. So I had to constantly learn in order not to become obsolete.

But wages are only part of getting by. The other part is saving and investing. Pretty much all my working life, I spent less then what I made and invested that money. So now I have been retired for fifteen years and the largest part of my income comes not from pensions or Social Security. But from dividends and the " Required Minimum Distributions " from my IRA's. So my solution to starvation wages is income not based on wages.

Dan

Now for the metalworking part of this post. I managed to disassemble my Mill/Drill into pieces I could cope with and move the parts down the stairs to the basement. Still need to beef up the stand and move it to the basement. The garage is just too cold in the winter and too hot in the summer.

In surfing the net, I found this website that has both electronics and metalworking info. http://conradhoffman.com/

Dan

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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 04:50:56 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 9/1/2013 4:52 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:55:03 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 10:43 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.

Same here.

It isn't a problem. It never has been.


I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Wrong. People would do things that formerly weren't done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy


The "lump of labor" issue deals well with increases in labor supply
and with a historical consequence of technological changes affecting
productivity. But it's contradicted by the increasing GINI coefficient
and the stagnation of middle-class wages and salaries. Something is
changing.

There is a hollowing-out of the middle class going on. The arguments
against the "lump of labor fallacy" say that shouldn't happen.

As Tom says, the goal is to take the "art" out of production. And as
Iggy says, there are more middle-class jobs that can be handled by
computers.

We've seen some of the consequences already. There simply are no
compensating numbers of new jobs in the middle range of skill and
income, even though there are plenty of jobs at the bottom end, and a
few more at the top.



Ever since I was very young, wheel brushes were wound by hand. In the
early 70's, one legendary winder operator made $350 per week in bonus
over and above his salary. That was good money back then. Today, a
good winder will make 1/5 as many parts even though I've raised the
bonus and lowered the bonus threshold. People just won't do more than
they have to in order not to get fired. THAT'S why I automated the
production and eliminated the "Art" factor. I accept the fact that it's
a different time now, never to go back to the old ways. AND, the new
ways are better...but not for jobs. I wonder...more and more people and
less and less manufacturing jobs. Agriculture is the same, mining and
oil is the same. Wealth creation does not rely on large numbers of
people anymore and the skill set if way different. Could that be why
wealth is being more and more concentrated?


It is a factor, but it's a structural issue, and economists have been
arguing over structural issues for the past ten years or more, with
the dominant position now being that structural changes do not explain
what's happening to our economy.

However, "structural changes" cover a lot of territory in economics.
The big ones that economists are arguing about are things like
offshoring, big changes in monetary policies and interest rates,
globalization of supply chains, and so forth.

What we're talking about here are technical changes that you, Iggy,
me, and many others here experience first-hand. Collectively, they
look minor. Individually, at the micro level, they are huge.

And we're talking about jobs that have large employment multipliers.
Manufacturing is one of the highest, or maybe the highest of all.

So my gut tells me that it's being mistakenly overlooked in a lot of
high-level economic discussions. But they have better grips on the big
picture, so it's not something I'm about to argue.

--
Ed Huntress
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 00:33:56 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 08:59:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:51:53 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 10:41 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 09:58:37 -0700, George Plimpton
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 9:44 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?

There is always work to be done.

Yes there is. It expands to fit the time available.

Nope. There is always meaningful work to be done. The Lump of Labor
fallacy *is* a fallacy, after all.


I'm not sure that is a universal truth. I've lived in several foreign
countries where there simply aren't jobs for everyone.

Likewize. There may be WORK for everyone, but not jobs. Work for no
pay or gain is not a job. Lots of available "work" but very few "jobs"
in Burkina Faso, Zambia, and other poor third world countries.

The problem is, in a society where everyone wants a "job" a lot of the
"work" that needs to be done never gets done.


Ain't dat de trufe? And so many kids go through college seeking a
librul arts degree and then wonder why they can't find a job after
graduating. It seems that the bleeding heart job market is saturated.


Volunteer "work" gives a man purpose, even if it dies not provide him
any gain..


Verily.


Someone who has proved they are capable of and not afraid of "work"
often gets a "job" out of it.


They're also the type who get the first and best raises, become
managers, and so on. Capability, hard work, and willingness are
rewarded.


The lazy one who sits around waiting
for a "job" but does no "work" can be easily overlooked.


Until he goes on the dole, all the while screaming about no jobs to be
found and demanding his "rights" since "we _owe_ him"... sigh

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
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On 2013-09-02, wrote:
On Sunday, September 1, 2013 10:04:31 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus27947 wrote:
Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow
process, but inevitable.

I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.

There is no place to hide.


This discussion has been about wages, and finding good jobs is
getting more and more dificult. Computers eliminate jobs in two
ways. One is where the computer does the work that used to be done
by a human. The other is where the computer increases the
productivity. An example of this is the Draftman. A draftman is now
much more productive than when drawings were made on vellum using
ink. I have no good solution for finding good jobs, except to say
that one needs to constantly work at staying current in your field.
I had a lot of experience with that as the estimate is that half of
what an electrical engineer knows is obsolete every seven years. So
I had to constantly learn in order not to become obsolete.

But wages are only part of getting by. The other part is saving and
investing. Pretty much all my working life, I spent less then what
I made and invested that money. So now I have been retired for
fifteen years and the largest part of my income comes not from
pensions or Social Security. But from dividends and the " Required
Minimum Distributions " from my IRA's. So my solution to starvation
wages is income not based on wages.


Very nice. I save too. And I was, so far, moderately lucky with my
choice of what to invest in and, more importantly, what not to invest
in.

However, I have seen enough to realize that a couple of instances of
"bad luck" can ruin everything when it comes to savings. For example,
a divorce and a health trouble.

i
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On 2013-09-02, Larry Jaques wrote:
Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.


Is that, like a self-help book?

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


I am on my first change...

i


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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 22:02:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Im almost 60..and Ive made 9 career changes..big ones in the past 45
yrs.


You need to look up the definition of career for a start. You've never
had one.

Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.

I suspect its because im (dont tell anyone..but I think Im slightly
depressed) not going anywhere and at a wobbling pace and am simply
tired of being tired of the same old **** each week, both in my
personal and professional life. The high point of this year has
been..as best as I can recall...buying that used $200 sailboat a few
weeks ago. I starved for 2 weeks to buy it...no one else in the family
gave up a ****ing thing...but I worked for it.


What you should be depressed about is sitting on your ass whining
about buying sailboats when you should have been working to pay off
your debts and earn some self respect.

So..Ive not had a lot to be happy about. Shrug. **** happens and
then you die.


No, **** didn't "happen." You dove right in, happily swim around in
it, and are too stupid and lazy to climb out.
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:22:53 -0500, Ignoramus15501
wrote:

On 2013-09-02, wrote:
On Sunday, September 1, 2013 10:04:31 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus27947 wrote:
Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow
process, but inevitable.

I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.

There is no place to hide.


This discussion has been about wages, and finding good jobs is
getting more and more dificult. Computers eliminate jobs in two
ways. One is where the computer does the work that used to be done
by a human. The other is where the computer increases the
productivity. An example of this is the Draftman. A draftman is now
much more productive than when drawings were made on vellum using
ink. I have no good solution for finding good jobs, except to say
that one needs to constantly work at staying current in your field.
I had a lot of experience with that as the estimate is that half of
what an electrical engineer knows is obsolete every seven years. So
I had to constantly learn in order not to become obsolete.

But wages are only part of getting by. The other part is saving and
investing. Pretty much all my working life, I spent less then what
I made and invested that money. So now I have been retired for
fifteen years and the largest part of my income comes not from
pensions or Social Security. But from dividends and the " Required
Minimum Distributions " from my IRA's. So my solution to starvation
wages is income not based on wages.


Very nice. I save too. And I was, so far, moderately lucky with my
choice of what to invest in and, more importantly, what not to invest
in.

However, I have seen enough to realize that a couple of instances of
"bad luck" can ruin everything when it comes to savings. For example,
a divorce and a health trouble.

i

The universal plan to financial success:
Rule #1 - Marry the right woman the FIRST TIME.
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:31 -0500, Ignoramus15501
wrote:

On 2013-09-02, Larry Jaques wrote:
Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.


Is that, like a self-help book?

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


I am on my first change...

i

Larry's life sounds a bit like mine.

Auto mechanic, teacher, auto mechanic/service manager, computer
technician, computer technician/handyman.

Getting older is mandatory - growing up is optional
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On 9/1/2013 10:02 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:08:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:13:45 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:58:56 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 11:38:44 -0500, Ignoramus27947
wrote:

On 2013-09-01, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

The trouble with more automation that I see is that at some point
there has to a be human involved. Can trucks be unloaded and
materials be unpacked and prepared by robots? Sure, but the laws of
diminishing returns don't favor that high of degree of automation.
My thought is to just take the art out of an operation and increase
quality and consistency.

My own approach to this, is to push things as far as possible.

I cannot see, why trucks cannot be unloaded by robots.

And I am also sure that robots do not need pension and health
insurance.

i

Everyone else can stand back and watch! g

You're right that you can't stop that kind of progress. And then what?


I do not know what then. I find that sort of progress to be
inevitable, but dusturbing.

Same here.

I am convinced that, unlike in the past,
computers can replace people permanently. As the ability of computers
progresses, they can replace more and more people.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week
would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do
with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all
figured out. d8-)


Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful
worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a
determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my
kids.

i

You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be
smaller and smaller in numbers.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California,
taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and
Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts
working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well every
night..because when they sold out in California..they made enough
money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have money in the
bank.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


Im almost 60..and Ive made 9 career changes..big ones in the past 45
yrs.


Ha ha ha ha! You mean you made some small "career changes" at age 15
and below, gummer? HA HA HA HA HA! What - you quit mowing lawns and
started delivering the local newspaper? HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW!


Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.


You never had any drive or persistence in any of them.

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On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 22:02:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:08:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Im almost 60..and Ive made 9 career changes..big ones in the past 45
yrs.

Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.


So, you're ready to roll over and die? What's stopping you? g
No? Then it's either time to jump or time to accept your fate.
Your choice. :/

I'm running out of steam (when I lost 20+ pounds last year, I gained
some of that back; probably not one of your options), but not desire
or ability to jump. Maybe you just need to search out your right
niche. Can you legally do welding and machining (for others) at your
house? Can you change your industrial wiring skills to residential,
or does CA want you to jump through about $10k worth of hoops to do
so? (It's the latter up here, IF you could find someone to pay you
minimum wage for 4 years while you get your apprenticeship in
electrics. deep sigh) Can you, and do you want to, do solar panel
installations? That's a growing field. Ditto wind generators. You
have lots of that in the Taft area, so you might fall into that with
ease. With the portable genset, you might find work welding up
platforms for the other guys in those fields, too.

I suggest writing down your top ten list of things you'd love to do,
or at least have a high interest in. Now compare that with reality.
(Sucks, doesn't it?) But now you have a map and maybe you can find or
create that niche to drop yourself into. Back to your earlier
content, there is a pretty healthy profit margin in sex machines.


I suspect its because im (dont tell anyone..but I think Im slightly
depressed) not going anywhere and at a wobbling pace and am simply
tired of being tired of the same old **** each week, both in my
personal and professional life. The high point of this year has


Depressed, huh? Ya think? You're certainly not alone there.


been..as best as I can recall...buying that used $200 sailboat a few
weeks ago. I starved for 2 weeks to buy it...no one else in the family
gave up a ****ing thing...but I worked for it.

So..Ive not had a lot to be happy about. Shrug. **** happens and
then you die.


Change that. **** happens, you get over it, you get the girl, and
live happily ever after. /fantasy I don't want to be wealthy, but
I'd sure like to make more than I have been making. I'd love to win a
lottery for $500 a week for life. I could easily live on that and I'd
be able to put away -savings- at that rate. What a concept! My house
and truck are paid for, so it's just maintenance, insurances, and
utilities to handle.

So if you're downright disgusted, and life ain't worth a dime,
(Sing it, Boys!) Find a girl, with farrrrr-away eyes.
(da dum dum dum)

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt


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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:31 -0500, Ignoramus15501
wrote:

On 2013-09-02, Larry Jaques wrote:
Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.


Is that, like a self-help book?


Yes.


I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


I am on my first change...


More power to ya!


--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 10:54:17 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:31 -0500, Ignoramus15501
wrote:

On 2013-09-02, Larry Jaques wrote:
Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.


Is that, like a self-help book?

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


I am on my first change...

i

Larry's life sounds a bit like mine.

Auto mechanic, teacher, auto mechanic/service manager, computer
technician, computer technician/handyman.


Ayup. I'd noticed that, too.


Getting older is mandatory - growing up is optional


Absolutely!

I don't recall whether I posted it here or elsewhere, but I found an
old shirt in my closet yesterday which also resembled me. It says:

Compulsive, neurotic, anti-social
maniac and paranoid,
but basically happy

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
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On 9/1/2013 10:02 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:08:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


Waaahhhhhhhhh!



Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


Im almost 60..and Ive made 9 career changes..big ones in the past 45
yrs.

Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.


Why would you want to jump out of this one, gummer?

"Hummmm? I get $75 an hour, .55 cents a mile out and back, and
$25/hr travel time."
gummer arsch - 08/31/2013, 9:48PM PDT

$75 an hour is $75,000 a year even if you only work 20 hours a week, not
to mention several thousand dollars more (at $25/hour) for your travel
time to Long Beach and other parts of the L.A. Basin. You could live
like royalty on $75,000-$90,000 a year in Taft, where the median family
income is about $37,000 per year.
http://www.city-data.com/city/South-...alifornia.html

Ooooohhh...I also note that the male population there is 53.9%. That's
going to be some intense competition for the 46.1% of females, and I
don't think cardiac bypass survivors typically fare well in that sort of
competition.

You're caught in another lie, gummer.

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On 2013-09-02, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:22:53 -0500, Ignoramus15501
wrote:

On 2013-09-02,
wrote:
On Sunday, September 1, 2013 10:04:31 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus27947 wrote:
Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow
process, but inevitable.

I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.

There is no place to hide.

This discussion has been about wages, and finding good jobs is
getting more and more dificult. Computers eliminate jobs in two
ways. One is where the computer does the work that used to be done
by a human. The other is where the computer increases the
productivity. An example of this is the Draftman. A draftman is now
much more productive than when drawings were made on vellum using
ink. I have no good solution for finding good jobs, except to say
that one needs to constantly work at staying current in your field.
I had a lot of experience with that as the estimate is that half of
what an electrical engineer knows is obsolete every seven years. So
I had to constantly learn in order not to become obsolete.

But wages are only part of getting by. The other part is saving and
investing. Pretty much all my working life, I spent less then what
I made and invested that money. So now I have been retired for
fifteen years and the largest part of my income comes not from
pensions or Social Security. But from dividends and the " Required
Minimum Distributions " from my IRA's. So my solution to starvation
wages is income not based on wages.


Very nice. I save too. And I was, so far, moderately lucky with my
choice of what to invest in and, more importantly, what not to invest
in.

However, I have seen enough to realize that a couple of instances of
"bad luck" can ruin everything when it comes to savings. For example,
a divorce and a health trouble.

i

The universal plan to financial success:
Rule #1 - Marry the right woman the FIRST TIME.



Yep...
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On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 05:27:14 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, September 1, 2013 10:04:31 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus27947 wrote:

Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow

process, but inevitable.


I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.



There is no place to hide.



i


This discussion has been about wages, and finding good jobs is getting more and more dificult. Computers eliminate jobs in two ways. One is where the computer does the work that used to be done by a human. The other is where the computer increases the productivity. An example of this is the Draftman. A draftman is now much more productive than when drawings were made on vellum using ink. I have no good solution for finding good jobs, except to say that one needs to constantly work at staying current in your field. I had a lot of experience with that as the estimate is that half of what an electrical engineer knows is obsolete every seven years. So I had to constantly learn in order not to become obsolete.

But wages are only part of getting by. The other part is saving and investing. Pretty much all my working life, I spent less then what I made and invested that money. So now I have been retired for fifteen years and the largest part of my income comes not from pensions or Social Security. But from dividends and the " Required Minimum Distributions " from my IRA's. So my solution to starvation wages is income not based on wages.

Dan

Now for the metalworking part of this post. I managed to disassemble my Mill/Drill into pieces I could cope with and move the parts down the stairs to the basement. Still need to beef up the stand and move it to the basement. The garage is just too cold in the winter and too hot in the summer.

In surfing the net, I found this website that has both electronics and metalworking info. http://conradhoffman.com/

Dan



Bookmarked!! Thats some really cool stuff! Thanks!

I Love this!!

http://conradhoffman.com/RFQ_response.htm


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)


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On 9/1/2013 10:02 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 21:08:07 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 14:47:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.


Waaahhhhhhhhh!



Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt,
old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-C.../dp/0399144463
$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too.
(auto mech-QA-elec/comp/web tech-handyman-cnc mfg)
I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.


Im almost 60..and Ive made 9 career changes..big ones in the past 45
yrs.

Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.


Why would you want to jump out of this one, gummer?

"Hummmm? I get $75 an hour, .55 cents a mile out and back, and
$25/hr travel time."
gummer arsch - 08/31/2013, 9:48PM PDT

$75 an hour is $75,000 a year even if you only work 20 hours a week, not
to mention several thousand dollars more (at $25/hour) for your travel
time to Long Beach and other parts of the L.A. Basin. You could live
like royalty on $75,000-$90,000 a year in Taft, where the median family
income is about $37,000 per year.
http://www.city-data.com/city/South-...alifornia.html

Ooooohhh...I also note that the male population there is 53.9%. That's
going to be some intense competition for the 46.1% of females, and I
don't think cardiac bypass survivors typically fare well in that sort of
competition.

You're caught in another lie, gummer.

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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 10:47:21 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Bookmarked!! Thats some really cool stuff! Thanks!

I Love this!!

http://conradhoffman.com/RFQ_response.htm


+1


It reminds me of the warranty card from McD D:

McDonnell Douglas Warranty Card

This was actually posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas website
by an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor. The company,
of course, does not - and made the web department take it down
immediately.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Thank you for purchasing a McDonnell Douglas military aircraft. In
order to protect your new investment, please take a few moments to
fill out the warranty registration card below. Answering the survey
questions is not required, but the information will help us to develop
new products that best meet your needs and desires.


1. _ Mr. _ Mrs. _ Ms. _ Miss _ Lt. _ Gen. _ Comrade
_ Classified _ Other

First Name:............................................. .........
Initial: ........
Last Name:............................................. .........
Password: .............................. (max 8 char)
Code Name:............................................. .........

Latitude-Longitude-Altitude: ...........- ...........-..........

2. Which model aircraft did you purchase?
_ F-14 Tomcat
_ F-15 Eagle
_ F-16 Falcon
_ F-117A Stealth
_ Classified

3. Date of purchase (Year/Month/Day): 19....... / ....... /.......

4. Serial Number:........................................... ......

5. Please check where this product was purchased:
_ Received as gift / aid package
_ Catalog showroom
_ Independent arms broker
_ Mail order
_ Discount store
_ Government surplus
_ Classified

6. Please check how you became aware of the McDonnell Douglas product
you have just purchased:
_ Heard loud noise, looked up
_ Store display
_ Espionage
_ Recommended by friend / relative / ally
_ Political lobbying by manufacturer
_ Was attacked by one

7. Please check the three factors that most influenced your decision
to purchase this McDonnell Douglas product:
_ Style / appearance
_ Speed / maneuverability
_ Price / value
_ Comfort / convenience
_ Kickback / bribe
_ Recommended by salesperson
_ McDonnell Douglas reputation
_ Advanced Weapons Systems
_ Backroom politics
_ Negative experience opposing one in combat

8. Please check the location(s) where this product will be used:
_ North America
_ Central / South America
_ Aircraft carrier
_ Europe
_ Middle East
_ Africa
_ Asia / Far East
_ Misc. Third World countries
_ Classified

9. Please check the products that you currently own or intend to
purchase in the near futu
_ Color TV
_ VCR
_ ICBM
_ Killer Satellite
_ CD Player
_ Air-to-Air Missiles
_ Space Shuttle
_ Home Computer
_ Nuclear Weapon

10. How would you describe yourself or your organization? (Check all
that apply
_ Communist / Socialist
_ Terrorist
_ Crazed
_ Neutral
_ Democratic
_ Dictatorship
_ Corrupt
_ Primitive / Tribal

11. How did you pay for your McDonnell Douglas product?
_ Deficit spending
_ Cash
_ Suitcases of cocaine
_ Oil revenues
_ Personal check
_ Credit card
_ Ransom money
_ Traveler's check

12. Your occupation:
_ Homemaker
_ Sales / marketing
_ Revolutionary
_ Clerical
_ Mercenary
_ Tyrant
_ Middle management
_ Eccentric billionaire
_ Defense Minister / General
_ Retired
_ Student

13. To help us understand our customers' lifestyles, please indicate
the interests and activities in which you and your spouse enjoy
participating on a regular basis:
_ Golf
_ Boating / sailing
_ Sabotage
_ Running / jogging
_ Propaganda / disinformation
_ Destabilization / overthrow
_ Default on loans
_ Gardening
_ Crafts
_ Black market / smuggling
_ Collectibles / collections
_ Watching sports on TV
_ Wines
_ Interrogation / torture
_ Household pets
_ Crushing rebellions
_ Espionage / reconnaissance
_ Fashion clothing
_ Border disputes
_ Mutually Assured Destruction

Thank you for taking the time to fill out this questionnaire. Your
answers will be used in market studies that will help McDonnell
Douglas serve you better in the future - as well as allowing
you to receive mailings and special offers from other companies,
governments, extremist groups, and mysterious consortia.


Comments or suggestions about our fighter planes? Please write to:


McDONNELL DOUGLAS CORPORATION
Marketing Department
Military Aerospace Division
P.O. Box 800, St. Louis, MO


--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 11:22:50 -0700, Hiram Johnson thetruth@thetruth
wrote:


Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.


Why would you want to jump out of this one, gummer?

"Hummmm? I get $75 an hour, .55 cents a mile out and back, and
$25/hr travel time."
gummer arsch - 08/31/2013, 9:48PM PDT

$75 an hour is $75,000 a year even if you only work 20 hours a week,


ayup..it sure is. And during the Shining Times...I was knocking off
about that much money. Spent a fair amount of it on fuel, materials,
etc etc..but Id bring home at least $37k after taxes. Insurance
(medical) was a significant percentage of that $75k, liability
insurance was a smaller amount, and so on and so forth. But...$35-37k
paid for a lot of my toys, kept me in vehicles, kept a second place to
live in So Cal during the week, paid off the wifes medical bills, her
schooling and so forth. Course I had a boy who had 3 major surgeries
before he was 15..and that ate a lot of money as well with his
continual medical needs..most of which were not covered by insurance.
When they removed his kidney at the age of 14...insurance paid for
half. One of my two back surgeries was covered..I ate the second one.
My sons long term addiction to meth cost me a ****load of money
getting him treatment. 3 stays in managed care cost me every bit of my
rather impressive savings..the last being in 2003. He is off drugs
now..and has been for 12 yrs. He is married and has three kids..but he
is never going to be able to work.and SS pays him $831 a month. So I
have to pay the rest ..for the 3 grand kids.

But...all and all..I was doing pretty damned good. Being on the road
5-15 days at a time, I let the wife pay the bills..which I would later
regret..as many never got paid (property taxes for one). I
unfortunately married an airhead of massive proportions who didnt
discover common sense until her late 40s..and even today she has
massive blank spots in it. Shrug... thats neither here nor there.

But I was doing pretty well. Then the Second Great Depression hit in
late 2008 here in California. Things really started slowing down and
the first companies started closing their doors. Then in January of
2009..I had the heart attack, the triple bypass..and then six weeks to
the day later..I had the stroke.

I had gone to the Bakersfield Heart hospital in Nov of 2008 with chest
pains..and they told me it was bronchitus. Shrug..they were wrong.

Since Id had to drop my medical insurance in September of that year
when the slow down hit...I wound up with an $18k bill for a 45 minute
visit and a false assurance that I was just fine..just had bronchitus.

Fast forward 60 days..and Im in the hospital being gutted like a
trout. That bill was $184k. 6 weeks later..I had the stroke..and the
original surgeon told me to drive to another hospital to seek
treatment. Which I did..the next day..being rather clouded in
judgement..I had just had a stroke...shrug.

That bit of buffoonery...1 IV and 2 shots and 4 days of boredom cost
me $135k. I was visited by a doctor (1) time in those 4 days.

So now I was in hawk for a quarter million dollars that came right out
of nowhere. Then the first hospital contacted me and asked for money.
I mentioned some things the staff had discussed about some "problems"
with my treatment (they managed to kill me 2x before getting me back
to my room..and some issues with the surgery which caused the later
stroke)...and suddenly..they dropped the entire bill and zeroed it
out. Which left me with the second bill of $135k. Ive managed to pay
some..some of it..but given that it was not the full amount...the
County of San Bernadino put a lean on my fully paid for home and
property. Which remains. If I sell it...I dont get any of the money,
and I have to start from scratch someplace else.

Now in the mean time..work has gone right into the toilet. Ive lost 19
clients in the past 36 months...11 went out of business...owing me
$15k..me being one of the small creditors..shrug...6 have moved to
Texas and one to South Carolina..all to escape California.

Last year..and yes..I do bill $75 an hour, plus travel and mileage as
noted..I grossed..grossed $27k before expenses.
Thats 1/3rd of what I made for many years. So Im hanging on by my
fingernails.

My son, his wife and 3 kids live here, as well as another couple..and
Im largely paying the bills for their expenses. Son and DIL are on
welfare...so they are able to provide food for their kids and
themselves. And Im working on training her how to save money and put
it to proper use..rather than buying clothes for the kids at the big
money stores etc etc etc. They have finally discovered the joys of
yard sales and second hand stores. She was raised Mormon in Utah..and
when she hit the Real World (tm) of California...she had to become a
Californian...and didnt have the resources to do it. But..she was
trying until I finally had to slap her down and give her the options
of either the street..or a place to live. She is learning the facts
of life rather quickly. Shrug..but she is learning.

But yeah..its been a rather interesting downhill slide from Doing
Good..to Barely Makin it.

On a personal note..Yup..Ive made a ****load of mistakes in my
life..from my choice of wife, to passing up a quality education, to
taking care of others before myself and so on. Ive never claimed I
could walk on water. Nor would I ever bother. Ive got as many flaws as
most, not as many as people like yourself. I drop money into
charities, do animal rescue (Anyone want a dog?) and do the very best
I can to take care of my rather large and unexpected "family"

Hell yes Ive got toys. A pretty goodly number of toys of all kinds.
All bought with cash during the shining times, and seldom bought new.
But they serve my purpose. That $200 sailboat a few weeks ago was a
treat for myself..and it makes the 5th one I own. Ive owned at least
10 sailboats over the years.

Shrug. Ive bought and sold toys for years and generally either broke
even..or made a bit of money doing it, after having enjoyment with
em..and then upgrading to the better version. Hell..I simply gave
away a Hobi 16 worth about $800 to a friend, simply because he wanted
one..but like everyone else around here..couldnt afford one.

Im looking for yet another sailboat..and when I find it..Ill snag it
if I can. But I do it the smart way...

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats

Do I need another one? **** no. But given the little I spend on
myself...its a cheap treat for Myself. And others get enjoyment out
of it.

I pay $40 a week in dogfood. Thats $160 a month..but its my choice to
do animal rescue. It gives me pleasure and harms no one..and saves
lives...and the dogs I adopt out..go to their Forever Homes. So that
means a lot to me. The wife is out at the moment introducing a very
nice pup to her possible new owners. If it works..thats another one
that gets a Forever Home. (Joey got his Forever Home..YAY!!...4 more
to go!)
https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...37575370814946
https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...PupsAugust2013

In The Real World..Im pretty well liked and respected by quite a few.
Shrug..something you would never understand or experience. Sadly.
But I do have a nasty cynical side...comes from dealing with people in
the Real World..which I manage to camoflauge pretty well most of the
time..but when someone Really needs an ass chewing..Im not at all shy
about it. Usenet gives me the ability to speak my mind openly..rather
than simply keeping a blank face and keeping my mouth shut.

Something that you obviously do too..else folks would have murdered
you long ago.

Im pretty sure you are the Walter Mitty type...a fat or skinny little
whimp with no hair on your ass or chest who wouldnt say **** to a pile
of dung..but the anominity of Usenet allows you to think you are Super
Stud..snicker..as you try desperately to make others think you are
something other than a mear cog in the machine. Shrug. Cuts no ice
with me. Your castigating me with lies and near lies and your
buffoonish swappiing of nyms 2-5 times a day simply shows me you are
mentally ill. Badly and terminally nutz. ****ing Fugazi.

You spew the " I never change my nym", to "I always change my nym
because no one has the right to a name on Usenet"...to all the other
bull**** you spew and have spewed for years. Its just a sign that you
are as unstable as frozen and thawed nitro...and its one that I
usually simply laugh at you when you do it. Sometimes you **** me
off..but its actually quite rare and Ill ponder for a moment..laugh
and get on with it. A couple weeks ago I weeded through through my
Facebook friends list..removing those that hadnt been on in a long
time..leaving me with 189. And you have used EVERY one of those
names..including 3 dead people from before the weeding. And you
think its funny, or bright, or Unique or simply Tactics.

Sorry ****wit..its none of the above. Why the hell dont you use your
friends names? Oh..sorry..you dont have any friends...do you?
You remind me of a sorry old ******* named Cliff who used to post on
alt.machines.cnc. Odd that he died rather suddenly. But hey..he
****ed off hundreds of people regularly..so it could have been natural
causes..or by direction..who knows? Shrug..who cares? He isnt around
anymore. Thats ALL that counts.

Your time is coming to meet that big guy in the sky..and frankly its
not my decision where he sends you. Or the Big Dark...you pick one.

Ill only be tickled that you are gone. And with luck...much sooner
than you expect. And yes,,.you have been added to the List.
Shrug..Ill keep playing your game now and then until you suddenly
arent around anymore. And then the next nutball will poke up his
pointed head and become the very next contestant in Wack A Mole. Its
the only way I can give a treat to that previously mentioned Nasty
Evil side I own..a little bit. If I gave into it..there would be wide
spread bloodshed on the streets. But...Im older and wiser and unless
really given a good reason...will simply laugh..or shrug and sigh and
get on with my life (such as it is)

But at heart...Im basically..by choice.... a nice lovable harmless
fuzzball who has seen some of the nastier sides of life played out in
real life. A past Master at it. And one whom hopes never has to put
on the hat again...but for the right reason ...will do it in a heart
beat.

Just think of the crap Ive put up with FROM my family. Doing
something nasty and cruel and very very wicked to people I dont
like..would be like giving candy to a child. So lets hope you never
put me in that position..else Ill most certainly enjoy doing what I
once was very very good at. And you most certainly...will not.

So keep on bull****ing, lying, "reinterpreting" and carrying on.
Someday you will suddenly vanish from here and life will go on. And
Ill simply smile..nod a thanks to those responsible..and carry on with
my life. No harm..no foul.

So off your newest nym goes into the bozo bin. Ive got work to do
outside and Im not going to bother timing your next nym change ..I
only do when I want to show the others what a ****tard you really are.
Im sure your family is most ashamed of you...if they only knew your
games..Mr Mitty..tsk tsk tsk.

Be off little man..Ive got adult things to do.

plink


Gunner



"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)
  #79   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 4
Default Starvation Wages

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 14:58:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 11:22:50 -0700, Hiram Johnson thetruth@thetruth
wrote:


Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.


Why would you want to jump out of this one, gummer?

"Hummmm? I get $75 an hour, .55 cents a mile out and back, and
$25/hr travel time."
gummer arsch - 08/31/2013, 9:48PM PDT

$75 an hour is $75,000 a year even if you only work 20 hours a week,


ayup..it sure is. And during the Shining Times...I was knocking off
about that much money.


Liar. You never made much, as evidenced by your inability to pay the
smallest bills for the last 30 ****ing years.

Insurance
(medical) was a significant percentage of that $75k,


Let's see some receipts for any health insurance payments.

paid off the wifes medical bills


You've already said that her bills were freebies and that you were
trying to get her on SS. Do you need the link?

Course I had a boy who had 3 major surgeries
before he was 15..and that ate a lot of money as well with his
continual medical needs


.... that you put onto the taxpayers like all the others.

My sons long term addiction to meth cost me a ****load of money


Stop blaming your spawn.

He is married and has three kids..but he
is never going to be able to work.and SS pays him $831 a month.


AKA breadwinner of the household.

let the wife pay the bills..which I would later
regret..as many never got paid (property taxes for one).


Stop blaming your wife.

But I was doing pretty well. Then the Second Great Depression hit in
late 2008 here in California.


You just finished saying that other Californians cashed out and moved
to greener pastures. Stop blaming the economy for your low life ways.

Then in January of
2009..I had the heart attack, the triple bypass..and then six weeks to
the day later..I had the stroke.


Stop blaming your health problems. You caused them with your
lifestyle.

Since Id had to drop my medical insurance in September of that year


Let's see some receipts for that healthcare insurance. LOL

1 IV and 2 shots and 4 days of boredom cost
me $135k.


Liar. It didn't cost you anything because you'll never pay for your
care. But you will find money for cigarettes and soda to guarantee
more trips to the public trough.

(they managed to kill me 2x before getting me back
to my room


That's almost as many times as you've killed me!

the
County of San Bernadino put a lean on my fully paid for home and
property. Which remains. If I sell it...I dont get any of the money,
and I have to start from scratch someplace else.


Listen up you hilariously stupid ****wit. NOTHING you have is "paid
for." You've had a negative net worth your entire adult life.

Now in the mean time..work has gone right into the toilet. Ive lost 19
clients in the past 36 months...11 went out of business...owing me
$15k.


Stop blaming your imaginary "clients."

I grossed..grossed $27k before expenses.


No, you didn't. But regardless of what your pitiful income is, STOP
PRETENDING YOU KNOW **** ABOUT ANYTHING UNTIL YOU FIX UP YOUR OWN
DISASTER OF A LIFE!

My son, his wife and 3 kids live here


..... breadwinners

, as well as another couple.


.... renters

Im largely paying the bills for their expenses.


Horse****!

Son and DIL are on
welfare...so they are able to provide food for their kids and
themselves.


Man, the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

And Im working on training her how to save money and put
it to proper use


Bwahahaha!

do animal rescue (Anyone want a dog?)


STOP BREEDING ANIMALS!

Hell yes Ive got toys.


SELL THEM AND PAY YOUR ****ING BILLS!

That $200 sailboat a few weeks ago was a
treat for myself..and it makes the 5th one I own. Ive owned at least
10 sailboats over the years.


Copy and past that paragraph into an email to your creditors. I'm sure
your doctors would like to know about all your sailing escapades.

I pay $40 a week in dogfood.


STOP BREEDING ANIMALS!

But I do have a nasty cynical side


STOP THREATENING TO HAVE PEOPLE KILLED!

You spew the " I never change my nym"


STOP IMAGINING THAT YOU ONLY HAVE ONE PERSON RIDICULING YOUR LIES!
I count at least 3 currently.

Your time is coming to meet that big guy in the sky


How many more years are you going to keep pretending that you have any
say in your detractors' lifespans? Get your own house in order you
lying sonofabitch.

But at heart...Im basically..by choice.... a nice lovable harmless
fuzzball who has seen some of the nastier sides of life played out in
real life. A past Master at it. And one whom hopes never has to put
on the hat again...but for the right reason ...will do it in a heart
beat.


Oh give it up you stupid ****. Nobody believes any of your horse****.

Ive got adult things to do.


Yeah, but you won't do them.

Now either get off Usenet and get a goddamned job or quit whining.
  #80   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 973
Default Starvation Wages

On 9/2/2013 3:39 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 14:58:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 11:22:50 -0700, Hiram Johnson thetruth@thetruth
wrote:


Im running out of steam, desire, and ability to jump into another one.

Why would you want to jump out of this one, gummer?

"Hummmm? I get $75 an hour, .55 cents a mile out and back, and
$25/hr travel time."
gummer arsch - 08/31/2013, 9:48PM PDT

$75 an hour is $75,000 a year even if you only work 20 hours a week,


ayup..it sure is. And during the Shining Times...I was knocking off
about that much money.


Liar. You never made much, as evidenced by your inability to pay the
smallest bills for the last 30 ****ing years.

Insurance
(medical) was a significant percentage of that $75k,


Let's see some receipts for any health insurance payments.

paid off the wifes medical bills


You've already said that her bills were freebies and that you were
trying to get her on SS. Do you need the link?

Course I had a boy who had 3 major surgeries
before he was 15..and that ate a lot of money as well with his
continual medical needs


... that you put onto the taxpayers like all the others.

My sons long term addiction to meth cost me a ****load of money


Stop blaming your spawn.


gummer was furnishing the meth to his son. That's a fact.



He is married and has three kids..but he
is never going to be able to work.and SS pays him $831 a month.


AKA breadwinner of the household.


Ooooohhh...
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