On Apr 19, 1:21*am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message

...
On Apr 18, 11:02 pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:









"Gunner Asch" wrote in message

news

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an
excellent machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).

Gunner

A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes.

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so
even
in retirement. They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. In fact, they aren't even
scraped. They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*.
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. All other way surfaces are ground.

Look closely. They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. I think you know it, too!)

Harold

"The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the
head mounts. All other way surfaces are ground."

Not true.

http://youtu.be/NaKfxWzVyTE
================================================== ===========================
I am not discussing rebuilds. I said that BP mills are not scraped. *Unless
you can provide evidence that I'm wrong, that still stands. * Your opinion
has no value to me, as I've already seen how misguided you are.

If they're scraped, why is it that grinding marks are still evident?
Wouldn't scraping remove them?

I rest my case. *You don't know what the hell you're talking about, and I'm
not going to get involved in a ****ing match with you. *I've seen more than
enough of your *wisdom* to know that you aren't a credible source of
information, although, I must admit, you shine brightly at showing the world
what an ass you can be.

It's over with me ----there will be no further comments to you, or anything
you may say. * I have much more important business to tend to----like
watching Gilligan's Island.

Harold

"I said that BP mills are not scraped. Unless you can provide
evidence that I'm wrong..."

Right, you said it and I proved once again how wrong and full of ****
you are. I did so with my own first hand eyewitness account of
watching the Series I castings being scraped and with a link to an
article that states that all contact surfaces on a Bridgeport Series I
were hand scraped.

Suggest you stick to watching Gilligan's Island. You remind me of
Gilligan... except that Gilligan was much smarter.

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:02:12 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
t:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an
excellent machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).


Gunner


A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes.

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so even
in retirement. They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. In fact, they aren't even
scraped. They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*.
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. All other way surfaces are ground.

Look closely. They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. I think you know it, too!)

Harold

VBG

Indeed. I fix em when they break.

Gunner

On Apr 19, 2:22*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:02:12 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"









wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
t:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. * They are an
excellent machine. *Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. *Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. *My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. *And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).

Gunner

A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. *Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. *In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes..

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so even
in retirement. *They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. *It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. * * In fact, they aren't even
scraped. * They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. *Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. *Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*.
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. * *All other way surfaces *are ground.

Look closely. *They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. *I think you know it, too!)

Harold

VBG

Indeed. I fix em when they break.

Gunner

Right, you fix them when they break because you don't have the skill
set to really use them to make high precision, complex parts. Your
posts in this thread prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:516ff7c6$0
:

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.


Yup, but I seldom do angled work that precise, and if I do, I just use
the sine plate to angle the work to the bed.


I generally program a ball end mill to hemstitch the angle onto the
workholding fixture using X Z or Y Z stepover.

Takes a while but comes out dead nuts.

That's dandy for production work, but for those of us doing a one or two
off part for our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

This seems to about all he's capable of, Harold. I haven't seen the point of
reading anything he's commented on.

--
WB
..........


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

If you're trying to get to the root of what's real---it's in your not
understanding that discussion isn't revolving around how much better a bed
mill is than a knee mill. I don't know why the hell you went there in
the first place.

Who the hell cares which is better? This isn't a matter of Iggy making a
decision on which to buy---it's a matter of learning if his choice,
already made, was acceptable. I say it is, and my position is based on
real world experiences, not based on comparing unrelated machines, which
serves no purpose aside from distracting others who are equally as
misguided as you are and insist that there is no place for knee mills.
If that was true, they wouldn't still be on the market, and I dare say
they are, and in large numbers. So then, do you have anything of
substance to offer, or are you going to continue to add comments that are
of no use?

Wouldn't you feel a lot better about yourself if you tried to help instead
of hinder? Seems to me you would, but then I don't know you. I may be
wrong.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"jon_banquer" wrote in message


It's over with me ----there will be no further comments to you, or anything
you may say. I have much more important business to tend to----like
watching Gilligan's Island.


It's well known that Gilligan was better at metalworking than
"jon_banquer" ever will be.

On Apr 19, 6:00*am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
This seems to about all he's capable of, Harold. I haven't seen the point of
reading anything he's commented on.

--
WB
.........

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in .net...









If you're trying to get to the root of what's real---it's in your not
understanding that discussion isn't revolving around how much better a bed
mill is than a knee mill. * *I don't know why the hell you went there in
the first place.

Who the hell cares which is better? *This isn't a matter of Iggy making a
decision on which to buy---it's a matter of learning if his choice,
already made, was acceptable. *I say it is, and my position is based on
real world experiences, not based on comparing unrelated machines, which
serves no purpose aside from distracting others who are equally as
misguided as you are and insist that there is no place for knee mills.
If that was true, they wouldn't still be on the market, and I dare say
they are, and in large numbers. * So then, do you have anything of
substance to offer, or are you going to continue to add comments that are
of no use?

Wouldn't you feel a lot better about yourself if you tried to help instead
of hinder? * *Seems to me you would, but then I don't know you. *I may be
wrong.

Harold

Factual information from people you don't like scares the **** out of
losers like you and Terrell.

"Pete C." wrote in message ...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:516ff7c6$0
:

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.


Yup, but I seldom do angled work that precise, and if I do, I just use
the sine plate to angle the work to the bed.


I generally program a ball end mill to hemstitch the angle onto the
workholding fixture using X Z or Y Z stepover.

Takes a while but comes out dead nuts.

That's dandy for production work, but for those of us doing a one or two
off part for

Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message ...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:516ff7c6$0
:

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.


Yup, but I seldom do angled work that precise, and if I do, I just use
the sine plate to angle the work to the bed.


I generally program a ball end mill to hemstitch the angle onto the
workholding fixture using X Z or Y Z stepover.

Takes a while but comes out dead nuts.

That's dandy for production work, but for those of us doing a one or two
off part for

Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off job.

You didn't get the memo ?

Apparently not, I still use standard vises, angle plates, clamping
components, etc for one off jobs, just like every other home shop
machinist does. Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.

Indeed, production, for-profit, not home shop work. I made fixture
plates for a project where I was making around a dozen parts, and I
still didn't like using that nice hunk of 3/4" 6061 plate off my meager
stock rack.

On Apr 19, 11:10*am, "Pete C." wrote:
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in . ..

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
8.3.70...
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:516ff7c6$0
:

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.

Yup, but I seldom do angled work that precise, and if I do, I just use
the sine plate to angle the work to the bed.

I generally program a ball end mill to hemstitch the angle onto the
workholding fixture using X Z or Y Z stepover.

Takes a while but comes out dead nuts.

That's dandy for production work, but for those of us doing a one or two
off part for

Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off job.

You didn't get the memo ?

Apparently not, I still use standard vises, angle plates, clamping
components, etc for one off jobs, just like every other home shop
machinist does. Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.



our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.

Indeed, production, for-profit, not home shop work. I made fixture
plates for a project where I was making around a dozen parts, and I
still didn't like using that nice hunk of 3/4" 6061 plate off my meager
stock rack.

"Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very least commercial
work"

Not true.

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:


Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.



Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is - in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

On Apr 19, 5:20*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley innews:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearc h.com:



Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.

Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

Bingo!

On Apr 19, 5:23*pm, jon_banquer wrote:
On Apr 19, 5:20*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"









lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley innews:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearc h.com:

Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.

Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

Bingo!

Speaking of irregular shaped parts, it sure is nice to have a CADCAM
system for machining soft jaws to easily hold an irregularity shaped
part. Funny, I've never seen Mark Wieber post on this topic.

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

jon_banquer fired this volley in news:01e13f3b-
:

Speaking of irregular shaped parts, it sure is nice to have a CADCAM
system for machining soft jaws to easily hold an irregularity shaped
part. Funny, I've never seen Mark Wieber post on this topic.

I don't have enough room around my machine for a vise crane, and I'm old
enough that I really don't like hoisting a 120lb milling vise on and off
the table, so I don't do a lot of soft-jaw holding. It works, though --
especially for thin parts that have to be machined all over the top
surface.

For those of you who don't understand what this is all about; you mill a
negative of some of the perimeter of the part in the jaws so the part
fits snugly into the profile. You mill that profile shallower than the
material's thickness such that you can do your machining on what projects
above the jaws.

When it gets really thin or clumsy to hold, you can even ditch the 'above
the jaws' strategy, and just machine the jaws along with the workpiece.

But I don't like to move my vise any more than absolutely necessary, and
it's not _usually_ on my mill, since I 'fixture' almost everything.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:


Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.



Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

And if I'm not mistaken, you have cnc...which is why I mentioned using cnc and a ball end mill to produce an angled surface.

As to why Pete seemingly got his panties into a wad, I really don't know--personally I think he's simply just looking for an arguement, and probably needs to see about getting on medications.

--because if he's truly trying to inform me about what "home shops do to get the job done" well, he's barking up the wrong tree....although most of my equipment today is indeed cnc, like many others, I started moonlighting out in my garage, about 35 years ago....my first lathe was an Atlas TH54 and shortly afterwards, I bought a Taiwanese R8 knee mill that was labled as a "Huskey"...

http://blog.sterlingmachinery.com/wp...09/A1394_1.jpg

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:


Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.



Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

And if I'm not mistaken, you have cnc...which is why I mentioned using cnc and a ball end mill to produce an angled surface.

As to why Pete seemingly got his panties into a wad, I really don't know--personally I think he's simply just looking for an arguement, and probably needs to see about getting on medications.

--because if he's truly trying to inform me about what "home shops do to get the job done" well, he's barking up the wrong tree....although most of my equipment today is indeed cnc, like many others, I started moonlighting out in my garage, about 35 years ago....my first lathe was an Atlas TH54 and shortly afterwards, I bought a Taiwanese R8 knee mill that was labled as a "Huskey"...

http://blog.sterlingmachinery.com/wp...09/A1394_1.jpg

You perhaps missed the personal projects part of what I said. While you
may run a commercial operation from your home shop most of us don't. As
for CNC, I have several CNC machines and I do on occasion make fixtures
when I will use them more than once, otherwise I'd rather spend the
extra 15 minutes clamping and indicating than waste $20 in material on a
one time fixture. Perhaps you are rich, I am not and while I'm not poor
I am frugal and try not to spend where there is little benefit.

On Apr 19, 6:35*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in messagenews:XnsA1A7CEE6CFD5Dlloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearch .com:

Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved..

Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

And if I'm not mistaken, you have cnc...which is why I mentioned using cnc and a ball end mill to produce an angled surface.

As to why Pete seemingly got his panties into a wad, I really don't know--personally I think he's simply just looking for an arguement, and probably needs to see about getting on medications.

--because if he's truly trying to inform me about what "home shops do to get the job done" well, he's barking up the wrong tree....although most of my equipment today is indeed cnc, like many others, I started moonlighting out in my garage, about 35 years ago....my first lathe was an Atlas TH54 and shortly afterwards, I bought a Taiwanese R8 knee mill that was labled as a "Huskey"...

http://blog.sterlingmachinery.com/wp...09/A1394_1.jpg

You perhaps missed the personal projects part of what I said. While you
may run a commercial operation from your home shop most of us don't. As
for CNC, I have several CNC machines and I do on occasion make fixtures
when I will use them more than once, otherwise I'd rather spend the
extra 15 minutes clamping and indicating than waste $20 in material on a
one time fixture. Perhaps you are rich, I am not and while I'm not poor
I am frugal and try not to spend where there is little benefit.

This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with experience
and smarts.

From what have posted I think your more than frugal... I think you
would trip over a dollar to get to a penny.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:


Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved.



Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always
for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

And if I'm not mistaken, you have cnc...which is why I mentioned using
cnc and a ball end mill to produce an angled surface.

As to why Pete seemingly got his panties into a wad, I really don't
know--personally I think he's simply just looking for an arguement, and
probably needs to see about getting on medications.

--because if he's truly trying to inform me about what "home shops do to
get the job done" well, he's barking up the wrong tree....although most
of my equipment today is indeed cnc, like many others, I started
moonlighting out in my garage, about 35 years ago....my first lathe was
an Atlas TH54 and shortly afterwards, I bought a Taiwanese R8 knee mill
that was labled as a "Huskey"...

http://blog.sterlingmachinery.com/wp...09/A1394_1.jpg

You perhaps missed the personal projects part of what I said. While you
may run a commercial operation from your home shop most of us don't. As

My initial comment was directed only towards Lloyd, just in case the option
of using cnc to mill a slanted surface for use as a baseplate instead of
having to set up a sine plate had never occurred to him.

He has cnc and pretty sure he does some production work.

for CNC, I have several CNC machines and I do on occasion make fixtures
when I will use them more than once, otherwise I'd rather spend the
extra 15 minutes clamping and indicating than waste $20 in material on a
one time fixture. Perhaps you are rich, I am not and while I'm not poor

It's not that I'm rich, it's that when I quote a job, I factor in the costs
of any cutters, tooling plates etc. that will be needed.

Oftentimes the workholding fixtures are then scrapped, I don't worry never
finding another use for it sometime down the road..it's already been charged
to the customer...

I am frugal and try not to spend where there is little benefit.

If someone doesn't have cnc then obviously for them it's not an option.

--further, if someone wants to do it some other way, it's perfectly fine
with me...one reason is as good as any another.

On Apr 19, 6:35*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in messagenews:XnsA1A7CEE6CFD5Dlloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:Zs6dnVe8RsCbGezMnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@scnresearch .com:

Uhm...tooling fixtures usually are one-off, same as any other one-off
job.

You didn't get the memo ?

our own projects we usually aren't doing CNC and we also
can't afford to be making dedicated fixtures we'll never use again.

I can't afford to indicate each part if there is production involved..

Yeah... I make fixtures for one-off jobs almost every day; not always for
locating the work, but often just because it's the only way to hold the
work and machine it all-over.

LLoyd

And if I'm not mistaken, you have cnc...which is why I mentioned using cnc and a ball end mill to produce an angled surface.

As to why Pete seemingly got his panties into a wad, I really don't know--personally I think he's simply just looking for an arguement, and probably needs to see about getting on medications.

--because if he's truly trying to inform me about what "home shops do to get the job done" well, he's barking up the wrong tree....although most of my equipment today is indeed cnc, like many others, I started moonlighting out in my garage, about 35 years ago....my first lathe was an Atlas TH54 and shortly afterwards, I bought a Taiwanese R8 knee mill that was labled as a "Huskey"...

http://blog.sterlingmachinery.com/wp...09/A1394_1.jpg

You perhaps missed the personal projects part of what I said. While you
may run a commercial operation from your home shop most of us don't. As
for CNC, I have several CNC machines and I do on occasion make fixtures
when I will use them more than once, otherwise I'd rather spend the
extra 15 minutes clamping and indicating than waste $20 in material on a
one time fixture. Perhaps you are rich, I am not and while I'm not poor
I am frugal and try not to spend where there is little benefit.

What's your time worth, Pete?

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
:

And if I'm not mistaken, you have cnc...which is why I mentioned using
cnc and a ball end mill to produce an angled surface.

PT, I've done that before; I have two reasons not to normally do it:

1) My CAM package makes it very clunky to set up an angled side profile
like that, because it is primarily a 2.5D package, and

2) I'm not really happy with the time vs. surface finish tradeoffs of
that method. It takes a really long time to make the tiny stepovers and
depth increments to produce a reasonable finish.

But yes. It works OK. There are times when it's just not practical to
move a piece around on the angle plate, and then so-called "side-
profiling" is the way to go.

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this
volley in news:U5mdnREn5Ob7ZezMnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

My initial comment was directed only towards Lloyd, just in case the
option of using cnc to mill a slanted surface for use as a baseplate
instead of having to set up a sine plate had never occurred to him.

Ummm.... sorry.... I COMPLETELY missed that! I read your suggestion to
mean milling the finished surface on the part, not the baseplate! (slaps
head!)

Please ignore my prior post on this, and accept this one as the real
response.

While it's difficult to get my CAM to set up for precise start and end
points on a sloped 'side', it's easy as heck to set up a precise angle,
so long as you don't care about the start/end points within a few thou.

So, yes... that would be faster than setting up a sine plate, most
especially for setups I'd be using more than once.

The surface finish doesn't matter much, so long as the overall angle is
held monotonic over the whole surface.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

And if I'm not mistaken, you have cnc...which is why I mentioned using
cnc and a ball end mill to produce an angled surface.

PT, I've done that before; I have two reasons not to normally do it:

ignore.... see my corrected response later.
(duh!)
LS

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is - in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. g

--
Ed Huntress

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this
volley in news:U5mdnREn5Ob7ZezMnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

My initial comment was directed only towards Lloyd, just in case the
option of using cnc to mill a slanted surface for use as a baseplate
instead of having to set up a sine plate had never occurred to him.

Ummm.... sorry.... I COMPLETELY missed that! I read your suggestion to
mean milling the finished surface on the part, not the baseplate! (slaps
head!)

Please ignore my prior post on this, and accept this one as the real
response.

While it's difficult to get my CAM to set up for precise start and end
points on a sloped 'side', it's easy as heck to set up a precise angle,
so long as you don't care about the start/end points within a few thou.


I tend to go a 1/2 inch or so past the edge of the part so that following
error is constant across the entire subject area..


So, yes... that would be faster than setting up a sine plate, most
especially for setups I'd be using more than once.

The surface finish doesn't matter much, so long as the overall angle is
held monotonic over the whole surface.


Run a finish pass 010 or so deep at max feedrate with feedrate lockout
active.

On Apr 20, 7:54*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.

Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through the
workpiece. *If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is *- in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. *g

--
Ed Huntress

Usually fixtures are stamped with a customer name and number that
corresponds with the drawing.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is - in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. g


A ledger, indexed by part number; if the job uses several tools then each
one has a sub-entry every space on the rack has a definite name such as
rack 16 shelf 5 pos k......

Each tool is engraved with the part and fixture number in case it ever gets
misplaced; the planning traveler spells out which tools are needed to make
any particular part.

---

When I first went to work at Lazy B, fixtures were ordered from a wharehouse
located several miles a away, you could expect a delay of at least 1/2 shift
and so it was important to order in advance--the ordering procedure involved
dialing into a computer main frame, placing the telephone handset onto a
teletype modem and then accurately typing in several pieces of pertinint
data in strict order.

http://eksfiles.net/wp-content/uploa...5-computer.jpg

jon_banquer fired this volley in news:03f63e12-
:

Usually fixtures are stamped with a customer name and number that
corresponds with the drawing.

If the purpose is to preserve them for replacing parts later, or making
more for duplicating a machine, then yes.

I have "waste plate" fixtures that have been used for dozens of different
jobs. When I run out of "holes" (or places for them), then they go in
the scrap, but I save them as unlabeled working fixturing for future jobs
until they're useless.

I have the other, truly dedicated ones, as well. Everyone does. That's
what my marking stamps are for.

Lloyd

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 08:57:14 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is - in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. g


A ledger, indexed by part number; if the job uses several tools then each
one has a sub-entry every space on the rack has a definite name such as
rack 16 shelf 5 pos k......

Each tool is engraved with the part and fixture number in case it ever gets
misplaced; the planning traveler spells out which tools are needed to make
any particular part.

---

When I first went to work at Lazy B, fixtures were ordered from a wharehouse
located several miles a away, you could expect a delay of at least 1/2 shift
and so it was important to order in advance--the ordering procedure involved
dialing into a computer main frame, placing the telephone handset onto a
teletype modem and then accurately typing in several pieces of pertinint
data in strict order.

http://eksfiles.net/wp-content/uploa...5-computer.jpg

Yeah, I realize how it's normally done. I'm sure those guys could
connect the jobs with the fixtures.

I was referring to what really was a bunch of junk stuck together to
do onesies and twosies. If there was any organization to it, it wasn't
apparent. These guys just couldn't throw anything away. I was being
slightly facetious.

I was co-owner of a job shop in the mid-'70s. We had junk "fixtures"
like that, too. Somehow we remembered what went with what. But it
usually didn't matter, because perhaps 90% of our work was scientific
and engineering models and test equipment for Princeton and Forrestal
Research Center, and no two jobs were ever alike.

We were packrats, too. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 20, 8:57*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:03f63e12-
:

Usually fixtures are stamped with a customer name and number that
corresponds with the drawing.

If the purpose is to preserve them for replacing parts later, or making
more for duplicating a machine, then yes.

I have "waste plate" fixtures that have been used for dozens of different
jobs. *When I run out of "holes" (or places for them), then they go in
the scrap, but I save them as unlabeled working fixturing for future jobs
until they're useless.

I have the other, truly dedicated ones, as well. *Everyone does. *That's
what my marking stamps are for.

Lloyd

Agree with everything you wrote above.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 08:57:14 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is - in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. g


A ledger, indexed by part number; if the job uses several tools then each
one has a sub-entry every space on the rack has a definite name such as
rack 16 shelf 5 pos k......

Each tool is engraved with the part and fixture number in case it ever
gets
misplaced; the planning traveler spells out which tools are needed to make
any particular part.

---

When I first went to work at Lazy B, fixtures were ordered from a
wharehouse
located several miles a away, you could expect a delay of at least 1/2
shift
and so it was important to order in advance--the ordering procedure
involved
dialing into a computer main frame, placing the telephone handset onto a
teletype modem and then accurately typing in several pieces of pertinint
data in strict order.

http://eksfiles.net/wp-content/uploa...5-computer.jpg

Yeah, I realize how it's normally done. I'm sure those guys could
connect the jobs with the fixtures.

I was referring to what really was a bunch of junk stuck together to
do onesies and twosies. If there was any organization to it, it wasn't
apparent. These guys just couldn't throw anything away. I was being
slightly facetious.

I was co-owner of a job shop in the mid-'70s. We had junk "fixtures"
like that, too. Somehow we remembered what went with what. But it
usually didn't matter, because perhaps 90% of our work was scientific
and engineering models and test equipment for Princeton and Forrestal
Research Center, and no two jobs were ever alike.

We were packrats, too. g


I probably have a couple tons needing to go to the scrap yard..

--no hurry though..

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 08:57:14 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is - in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. g


A ledger, indexed by part number; if the job uses several tools then each
one has a sub-entry every space on the rack has a definite name such as
rack 16 shelf 5 pos k......

Each tool is engraved with the part and fixture number in case it ever
gets
misplaced; the planning traveler spells out which tools are needed to make
any particular part.

---

When I first went to work at Lazy B, fixtures were ordered from a
wharehouse
located several miles a away, you could expect a delay of at least 1/2
shift
and so it was important to order in advance--the ordering procedure
involved
dialing into a computer main frame, placing the telephone handset onto a
teletype modem and then accurately typing in several pieces of pertinint
data in strict order.

http://eksfiles.net/wp-content/uploa...5-computer.jpg

Yeah, I realize how it's normally done. I'm sure those guys could
connect the jobs with the fixtures.

I was referring to what really was a bunch of junk stuck together to
do onesies and twosies. If there was any organization to it, it wasn't
apparent. These guys just couldn't throw anything away. I was being
slightly facetious.

I was co-owner of a job shop in the mid-'70s. We had junk "fixtures"
like that, too. Somehow we remembered what went with what. But it
usually didn't matter, because perhaps 90% of our work was scientific
and engineering models and test equipment for Princeton and Forrestal
Research Center, and no two jobs were ever alike.

We were packrats, too. g


I probably have a couple tons needing to go to the scrap yard..

--no hurry though..

As long as you have the space to store it and aren't being taxed on it,
it just gets more valuable with time.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 08:57:14 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of
those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through
the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is - in
a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. g


A ledger, indexed by part number; if the job uses several tools then
each
one has a sub-entry every space on the rack has a definite name such
as
rack 16 shelf 5 pos k......

Each tool is engraved with the part and fixture number in case it ever
gets
misplaced; the planning traveler spells out which tools are needed to
make
any particular part.

---

When I first went to work at Lazy B, fixtures were ordered from a
wharehouse
located several miles a away, you could expect a delay of at least 1/2
shift
and so it was important to order in advance--the ordering procedure
involved
dialing into a computer main frame, placing the telephone handset onto
a
teletype modem and then accurately typing in several pieces of
pertinint
data in strict order.

http://eksfiles.net/wp-content/uploa...5-computer.jpg

Yeah, I realize how it's normally done. I'm sure those guys could
connect the jobs with the fixtures.

I was referring to what really was a bunch of junk stuck together to
do onesies and twosies. If there was any organization to it, it wasn't
apparent. These guys just couldn't throw anything away. I was being
slightly facetious.

I was co-owner of a job shop in the mid-'70s. We had junk "fixtures"
like that, too. Somehow we remembered what went with what. But it
usually didn't matter, because perhaps 90% of our work was scientific
and engineering models and test equipment for Princeton and Forrestal
Research Center, and no two jobs were ever alike.

We were packrats, too. g


I probably have a couple tons needing to go to the scrap yard..

--no hurry though..

As long as you have the space to store it and aren't being taxed on it,

It's expensed upon purchase, when it is sold, the income must be reported as
earnings and is thus subject to taxation sane as anty other earnings.

it just gets more valuable with time.

Actually, aluminum prices tend to swing quite a bit..

--stocking up at the wrong time probably ended up becoming a very poor
investment choice for many folks.

Currently, it's back to about the '2006 level, ( ~$ 2.00/ LB ) a level
that's been revisited several times after having reached an all-time high of
about $3.00 in 2008.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/commodity/aluminum

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:7tOdnU557ctCTe_MnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 08:57:14 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:22:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:517189f8$0
:

Dedicated fixtures are for production or at the very
least commercial work where there are funds to cover the cost of
those
fixtures. Those of us doing personal projects don't like to waste
perfectly good material on a one off fixture.


Fixtures can be as simple as a waste plate with a few bolts through
the
workpiece. If it changes for every new workpiece layout, it is -
in a
sense - a "dedicated fixture".

Lloyd

heh...one of my first memories when I got my job at _American
Machinist_ and started visiting job shops was the "fixtures" rack in
one particular shop. I thought it was a staging area for cutoffs and
scrap.

There must have been fifty of the things on that rack. I wonder how
those guys remembered which one was for which job. g


A ledger, indexed by part number; if the job uses several tools then
each
one has a sub-entry every space on the rack has a definite name such
as
rack 16 shelf 5 pos k......

Each tool is engraved with the part and fixture number in case it ever
gets
misplaced; the planning traveler spells out which tools are needed to
make
any particular part.

---

When I first went to work at Lazy B, fixtures were ordered from a
wharehouse
located several miles a away, you could expect a delay of at least 1/2
shift
and so it was important to order in advance--the ordering procedure
involved
dialing into a computer main frame, placing the telephone handset onto
a
teletype modem and then accurately typing in several pieces of
pertinint
data in strict order.

http://eksfiles.net/wp-content/uploa...5-computer.jpg

Yeah, I realize how it's normally done. I'm sure those guys could
connect the jobs with the fixtures.

I was referring to what really was a bunch of junk stuck together to
do onesies and twosies. If there was any organization to it, it wasn't
apparent. These guys just couldn't throw anything away. I was being
slightly facetious.

I was co-owner of a job shop in the mid-'70s. We had junk "fixtures"
like that, too. Somehow we remembered what went with what. But it
usually didn't matter, because perhaps 90% of our work was scientific
and engineering models and test equipment for Princeton and Forrestal
Research Center, and no two jobs were ever alike.

We were packrats, too. g


I probably have a couple tons needing to go to the scrap yard..

--no hurry though..

As long as you have the space to store it and aren't being taxed on it,

It's expensed upon purchase, when it is sold, the income must be reported
as earnings and is thus subject to taxation sane as anty other earnings.

it just gets more valuable with time.

Actually, aluminum prices tend to swing quite a bit..

--stocking up at the wrong time probably ended up becoming a very poor
investment choice for many folks.

Currently, it's back to about the '2006 level, ( ~$ 2.00/ LB ) a level
that's been revisited several times after having reached an all-time high
of about $3.00 in 2008.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/commodity/aluminum


But yes, looking again at the chart, today is probably a better time to buy
than to sell.

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this
volley in :

But yes, looking again at the chart, today is probably a better time
to buy than to sell.



In my case, their value has to do with the fact that I'm a full business
day-and-a-half away from _any_ suppliers; so having a bunch of stock on
the shelves is worth a lot.

Lloyd