On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:27:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

I thought they were talking about the latter. If so, I believe the
most common use for that is drilling holes off-axis on large
workpieces. Mold makers also used it for machining various off-axis
features where then didn't want to play with sine tables and such.


We're talking about the latter, although his comment has validity. For a
second-ops machine, I'd want both features.

Lloyd

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...eneMiller_Sold

Thats the only milling I can think of that one would need a tilting
head for..and the BP sure as hell isnt going to make those kinds of
cuts.

Which is why Van Normans as well as the Abenes are still popular
among many people.

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:59:00 -0500, Ignoramus24865
wrote:

On 2013-04-17, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:6a861c6d-8a5d-
:

A Gorton isn't rigid compared to a machine that has the table
supported for the full length of it's travel.

Of course not; I agree. But the older (well, they all are) Gortons are
known for their 'strongback' design. They're sure a lot more rigid that BP
machines of all ilk.

You are milling on top of the knee, anyway./

i

But..its a damned big and well constructed knee. Gortons are from
25%-75% heavier than an equivelent BP

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Thats the only milling I can think of that one would need a tilting
head for..and the BP sure as hell isnt going to make those kinds of
cuts.


So you're saying that the ONLY angled cut anyone would ever need to make
is on material that heavy, or with cuts that aggressive?

C'mon, Gunner. Have you never had a piece of material that sat flat on
the bed but required an angled surface on top? If you have, envision a
shop duty where you have to do dozens of them with dozens of different
angles.

Which would you prefer -- setting up the sine plate and clamping for
every different setup, or just tilting the head to the desired angle and
'doing it'?

I understand that if I need a really _precise_ angle, I'm going with the
sine plate every time. But if I have a bunch of stuff where +-1/10
degree ain't gonna matter, I want to tilt the head.

Lloyd

On Apr 17, 4:17*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Gunner Asch fired this volley :

Thats the only milling I can think of that one would need a tilting
head for..and the BP sure as hell isnt going to make those kinds of
cuts.

So you're saying that the ONLY angled cut anyone would ever need to make
is on material that heavy, or with cuts that aggressive?

C'mon, Gunner. *Have you never had a piece of material that sat flat on
the bed but required an angled surface on top? *If you have, envision a
shop duty where you have to do dozens of them with dozens of different
angles.

Which would you prefer -- setting up the sine plate and clamping for
every different setup, or just tilting the head to the desired angle and
'doing it'?

I understand that if I need a really _precise_ angle, I'm going with the
sine plate every time. *But if I have a bunch of stuff where +-1/10
degree ain't gonna matter, I want to tilt the head.

Lloyd


Lloyd, I know you're very talented and I know you're a good manual
machinist. I don't care what you think of me or what you have said
about me. What I just stated about you being a good manual machinist
in undeniable fact. Your posts prove this over and over just like
Precision Machinist's do.

I just have two questions for you:

When are you going to wake the **** up and realize that Wieber is no
machinist and doesn't have enough basic real world machining
experience?

Why are you and I the only one's calling Wieber out on his massive
stupidity for his claim of not needing to tilt the head and how often
it's done?

Granted, a few others tiptoed around the subject but they refused to
go directly after Wieber's massive lack or real world machining
knowledge. It's obvious Wieber has never worked on complex castings or
complex hog outs. That so few people will directly confront Wieber
shows how ****ed up this newsgroup is when it comes to metalworking.
That's got to change. Wieber has destroyed this group when it comes to
metalworking and the cult of idiots that Wieber attracts don't help
either.

On Apr 17, 3:29*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:27:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

I thought they were talking about the latter. If so, I believe the
most common use for that is drilling holes off-axis on large
workpieces. Mold makers also used it for machining various off-axis
features where then didn't want to play with sine tables and such.

We're talking about the latter, although his comment has validity. *For a
second-ops machine, I'd want both features.

Lloyd

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...eneMiller_Sold

Thats the only milling I can think of that one would need a tilting
head for..and the BP sure as hell isnt going to make those kinds of
cuts.

Which is why Van Normans as well as the Abenes *are still popular
among many people.

You continue to show how inexperienced you are with manual milling in
every post you make to this thread, Wieber.

Jonathan Banquer fired this volley in
:

When are you going to wake the **** up and realize that Wieber is no
machinist and doesn't have enough basic real world machining
experience?

Why are you and I the only one's calling Wieber out on his massive
stupidity for his claim of not needing to tilt the head and how often
it's done?

Ok.. here's where I stand. You and I have had words in the past because
of impressions we (maybe just I) had from things others said. They were
words that shouldn't have been written, even if they were all true.

I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt. You've recently said things
that make me believe you know a lot more than what your detractors say.

Gunner just uttered something that doesn't mesh with what I know has to
be done in an "odd job" shop. But maybe he has only ever done flat work,
and just doesn't have my perspective on things.

He's also said a few things in the past that make me believe that - if
he's not a competent machinist - he still knows quite a lot of stuff
about "stuff"; including machinery and old-school electronics.

Maybe, since this is a "discussion group", my attitude should be that
everyone has something to contribute (well... almost everyone), and I
should just disagree or stay quiet, when I disagree with what's written.

Nothing Gunner or you or anyone else on this group writes is going to
radically affect my life, and I'm not going to change anyone else's life,
either.

After 30+ years as a technical manager, I know that kicking dead horses
only ends up making my foot sore. The horses never complain.

Lloyd

On Apr 17, 5:04*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Jonathan Banquer fired this volley :

When are you going to wake the **** up and realize that Wieber is no
machinist and doesn't have enough basic real world machining
experience?

Why are you and I the only one's calling Wieber out on his massive
stupidity for his claim of not needing to tilt the head and how often
it's done?

Ok.. here's where I stand. *You and I have had words in the past because
of impressions we (maybe just I) had from things others said. *They were
words that shouldn't have been written, even if they were all true.

I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt. *You've recently said things
that make me believe you know a lot more than what your detractors say.

Gunner just uttered something that doesn't mesh with what I know has to
be done in an "odd job" shop. *But maybe he has only ever done flat work,
and just doesn't have my perspective on things.

He's also said a few things in the past that make me believe that - if
he's not a competent machinist - he still knows quite a lot of stuff
about "stuff"; including machinery and old-school electronics.

Maybe, since this is a "discussion group", my attitude should be that
everyone has something to contribute (well... almost everyone), and I
should just disagree or stay quiet, when I disagree with what's written.

Nothing Gunner or you or anyone else on this group writes is going to
radically affect my life, and I'm not going to change anyone else's life,
either.

After 30+ years as a technical manager, I know that kicking dead horses
only ends up making my foot sore. *The horses never complain.

Lloyd

"Gunner just uttered something that doesn't mesh with what I know has
to be done in an "odd job" shop"

Based on my experience of working in mostly machining job shops for 20
years, tilting a head is done all the time and is not done just in
"odd job" shops.

On 18/04/13 01:04, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Jonathan Banquer fired this volley in
:

When are you going to wake the **** up and realize that Wieber is no
machinist and doesn't have enough basic real world machining
experience?

Why are you and I the only one's calling Wieber out on his massive
stupidity for his claim of not needing to tilt the head and how often
it's done?
Ok.. here's where I stand. You and I have had words in the past because
of impressions we (maybe just I) had from things others said. They were
words that shouldn't have been written, even if they were all true.

I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt. You've recently said things
that make me believe you know a lot more than what your detractors say.

Gunner just uttered something that doesn't mesh with what I know has to
be done in an "odd job" shop. But maybe he has only ever done flat work,
and just doesn't have my perspective on things.

He's also said a few things in the past that make me believe that - if
he's not a competent machinist - he still knows quite a lot of stuff
about "stuff"; including machinery and old-school electronics.

Maybe, since this is a "discussion group", my attitude should be that
everyone has something to contribute (well... almost everyone), and I
should just disagree or stay quiet, when I disagree with what's written.

Nothing Gunner or you or anyone else on this group writes is going to
radically affect my life, and I'm not going to change anyone else's life,
either.

After 30+ years as a technical manager, I know that kicking dead horses
only ends up making my foot sore. The horses never complain.

Lloyd
The old "I used to be into necrophelia, flaggelation, and beasteality
until I realised I was flogging a dead horse" joke.

Jonathan Banquer fired this volley in
:

Based on my experience of working in mostly machining job shops for 20
years, tilting a head is done all the time and is not done just in
"odd job" shops.



Again... That's in yours and my perspective on how work is done (yes,
frequently), but maybe not in his. If I'm persuasive, maybe I'll sway
his opinions. If I'm abusive, I doubt he'll listen.

LLoyd

On Apr 17, 5:44*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Jonathan Banquer fired this volley :

Based on my experience of working in mostly machining job shops for 20
years, tilting a head is done all the time and is not done just in
"odd job" shops.

Again... That's in yours and my perspective on how work is done (yes,
frequently), but maybe not in his. *If I'm persuasive, maybe I'll sway
his opinions. *If I'm abusive, I doubt he'll listen.

LLoyd

To save face Wieber will have to listen to you. Sadly, none of
Wieber's cult followers will understand what this says about Wieber's
machining experience.

"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
On Apr 17, 2:29 am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Ignoramus9908" wrote in message

...









On 2013-04-17, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Ignoramus9908" wrote in message
om...
For a while, I have been looking for a perfect manual millnig machine
for our handy guy and for some simple jobs not requiring CNC.

I bought this Gorton 2-28 mill.

http://www.bidspotter.com/auctions/20712/photos/308.JPG

Not very proud of the price I paid, but it looked like a very good
machine. 2.5-5 HP motor (I guess dual speed), NMTB 40 taper spindle,
power feed on the X, Y axes and looks like on Z also.

Here's a catalog page that I found about it:

http://gorton-machine.org/forms/form_2321a/index.html

I want to keep it and not sell it.

Any comments, is that a good machine?

i
Gorton built top of the line equipment, and enjoyed a very respected
(and
deserved) reputation in machine tools.

You did good.

Harold, to be honest, I like Gortons more than Bridgeports.

i

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an excellent
machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little merit.

Harold

Neither a Goton or a Bridgeport are a "Rolls Royce". They both are
serious compromises when it comes to rigidity. All knee mills are.

---

If I had Bridgeport, it probably would be sitting on railroad ties behind
the shop, under a tarp.

If I had a Gorton, I probably would have scrapped it about twenty years ago.

If I had room for a manual milling machine that was only going to be used
occasionally, I would probably buy this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/devlieg-jigm...em33812e 5f02

On Apr 17, 6:02*pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message

...
On Apr 17, 2:29 am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:









"Ignoramus9908" wrote in message

m...

On 2013-04-17, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Ignoramus9908" wrote in message
om...
For a while, I have been looking for a perfect manual millnig machine
for our handy guy and for some simple jobs not requiring CNC.

I bought this Gorton 2-28 mill.

http://www.bidspotter.com/auctions/20712/photos/308.JPG

Not very proud of the price I paid, but it looked like a very good
machine. 2.5-5 HP motor (I guess dual speed), NMTB 40 taper spindle,
power feed on the X, Y axes and looks like on Z also.

Here's a catalog page that I found about it:

http://gorton-machine.org/forms/form_2321a/index.html

I want to keep it and not sell it.

Any comments, is that a good machine?

i
Gorton built top of the line equipment, and enjoyed a very respected
(and
deserved) reputation in machine tools.

You did good.

Harold, to be honest, I like Gortons more than Bridgeports.

i

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an excellent
machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little merit.

Harold

Neither a Goton or a Bridgeport are a "Rolls Royce". They both are
serious compromises when it comes to rigidity. All knee mills are.

---

If I had Bridgeport, it probably would be sitting on railroad ties behind
the shop, under a tarp.

If I had a Gorton, I probably would have scrapped it about twenty years ago.

If I had room for a manual milling machine that was only going to be used
occasionally, I would probably buy this one:http://www.ebay.com/itm/devlieg-jigm...t=LH_DefaultDo...


"If I had Bridgeport, it probably would be sitting on railroad ties
behind the shop, under a tarp."

Most shops I've worked for still have a quite a few Bridgeport Series
I type knee mills for secondary operations, for odd sized, bulky
pieces, for simple prototypes, for repairs and for making fixtures.
Often they are fitted with a Prototrak retrofit.

"If I had a Gorton, I probably would have scrapped it about twenty
years ago."

Most shops did scrap them twenty years ago and now put the kind of
work the Gorton's and similar heavy duty knee mills use to be used for
on a CNC mill that has a fully supported table.

"Jonathan Banquer" wrote in message
...

"Most shops I've worked for still have a quite a few Bridgeport Series I
type knee mills for secondary operations, for odd sized, bulky pieces, for
simple prototypes, for repairs and for making fixtures. Often they are
fitted with a Prototrak retrofit.

Space is too much a premium in *my shop...and since I've done fine without
having one for going on 30 years now, I've come to conclude that the return
on investment just isn't there for me, and that it's much better from a
business standpoint to just farm it out....

--focus on what makes the most money the fastest...keeping the machining
centers busy...

Having to shell out $45.00 once in a blue moon to someone with a Bridgeport
for an odd job is a drop in the bucket compared to spending $4 grand on a
machine that'll probably end up costing me more in lost time sweeping chips
and having to walk around it than it will ever recover.

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:17:06 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Thats the only milling I can think of that one would need a tilting
head for..and the BP sure as hell isnt going to make those kinds of
cuts.


So you're saying that the ONLY angled cut anyone would ever need to make
is on material that heavy, or with cuts that aggressive?

C'mon, Gunner. Have you never had a piece of material that sat flat on
the bed but required an angled surface on top? If you have, envision a
shop duty where you have to do dozens of them with dozens of different
angles.

Which would you prefer -- setting up the sine plate and clamping for
every different setup, or just tilting the head to the desired angle and
'doing it'?

I understand that if I need a really _precise_ angle, I'm going with the
sine plate every time. But if I have a bunch of stuff where +-1/10
degree ain't gonna matter, I want to tilt the head.

Lloyd

The Gortons tilt the head side to side. The BPs tilt the head side to
side and front and back.

However...if you can do it to .01 degree...all the power to you.

Gunner

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:17:06 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Thats the only milling I can think of that one would need a tilting
head for..and the BP sure as hell isnt going to make those kinds of
cuts.


So you're saying that the ONLY angled cut anyone would ever need to make
is on material that heavy, or with cuts that aggressive?

C'mon, Gunner. Have you never had a piece of material that sat flat on
the bed but required an angled surface on top? If you have, envision a
shop duty where you have to do dozens of them with dozens of different
angles.

Which would you prefer -- setting up the sine plate and clamping for
every different setup, or just tilting the head to the desired angle and
'doing it'?

I understand that if I need a really _precise_ angle, I'm going with the
sine plate every time. But if I have a bunch of stuff where +-1/10
degree ain't gonna matter, I want to tilt the head.

Lloyd

Actually..I use 3 way tilting vises when I need to do precise work.

Like these

http://www.grizzly.com/products/4-Th...le-Vise/T10059

Ive got a 3" Yaesa and a 6" Birmington.

I agree..you may be one of the small segment of people who use both
tilts in your BP head, and all the power to you!

But Ive seen so little of it in my coming and goings..that I cant see
an issue with a mill that doesnt tilt front to back.

Ive actually seen the accessory verticle slotter on the back of some
BPs used far more than the "nod" of the head.

Unless you are doing really long pieces..if the head tilts side to
side..it can be used just as well as a front to back "nod"
(Im having a stroke moment here...cant remember what the "nod"
movement is called..damnit

Gunner

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

However...if you can do it to .01 degree...all the power to you.

G No power. It just takes a vernier scale protractor, and a little
fidgeting to tweak the adjustment. Heck, I can read a sharply-engraved
scale to within a 1/4-degree easily, even without a vernier scale.

Lloyd

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Unless you are doing really long pieces..if the head tilts side to
side..it can be used just as well as a front to back "nod"
(Im having a stroke moment here...cant remember what the "nod"
movement is called..damnit


No argument there. I use(d when I had access to one) the side-tilt
almost exclusively. My old Cincinatti #2 had a side tilt head. I sold
it to make room in the shop, never thinking how much I'd miss it.

But... angle vises? Talk about losing rigidity! Besides, how would you
mount and swing a 150lb 12"x18" casting on that little toy?

(I'll honestly say I don't know the quality of the Yaesa, but _anything_
from Birmingham is just chinkalloy trash.)

LLoyd


Lloyd

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:01:52 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

However...if you can do it to .01 degree...all the power to you.

G No power. It just takes a vernier scale protractor, and a little
fidgeting to tweak the adjustment. Heck, I can read a sharply-engraved
scale to within a 1/4-degree easily, even without a vernier scale.

Lloyd


You..you..Technician !!!!

G

Gunner

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:09:12 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Unless you are doing really long pieces..if the head tilts side to
side..it can be used just as well as a front to back "nod"
(Im having a stroke moment here...cant remember what the "nod"
movement is called..damnit


No argument there. I use(d when I had access to one) the side-tilt
almost exclusively. My old Cincinatti #2 had a side tilt head. I sold
it to make room in the shop, never thinking how much I'd miss it.

But... angle vises? Talk about losing rigidity! Besides, how would you
mount and swing a 150lb 12"x18" casting on that little toy?

(I'll honestly say I don't know the quality of the Yaesa, but _anything_
from Birmingham is just chinkalloy trash.)

LLoyd


Lloyd

Not a Chinese Birmingham...a late 1949s US made one. Rochester New
York. A heavy heavy rugged ******* that is as solid as granite when
its set.

The old farts could make Stuff work pretty well before the Chinks took
measurements, decided what they couldnt afford and then built their
crap in Chinkistan.

The Yaesu is right ridged little ******* too. In fact..Ive put it on
the shaper more than once and it held the work in place just darby.

I did my Y axis gibs for the HLV-H on the shaper with it in fact..
Come to think of it..I found the gib blank to be flexing a thou or so
and stuck on the big one. ****ed me off when I realized it was the gib
flexing under the cut and not the vise...and Id redone my setup. Once
Id gotten the gib in the vise with little overhang..no problems noted.
And I was using grey ductile iron for gib material. I didnt have
anything "softer" in ferrous alloys that would work properly.

As to how you hold a big chunk? Bigger vise of course!
G


Gunner



Gunner


Gunner

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:17:06 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Thats the only milling I can think of that one would need a tilting
head for..and the BP sure as hell isnt going to make those kinds of
cuts.


So you're saying that the ONLY angled cut anyone would ever need to make
is on material that heavy, or with cuts that aggressive?

C'mon, Gunner. Have you never had a piece of material that sat flat on
the bed but required an angled surface on top? If you have, envision a
shop duty where you have to do dozens of them with dozens of different
angles.

Which would you prefer -- setting up the sine plate and clamping for
every different setup, or just tilting the head to the desired angle and
'doing it'?

I understand that if I need a really _precise_ angle, I'm going with the
sine plate every time. But if I have a bunch of stuff where +-1/10
degree ain't gonna matter, I want to tilt the head.

Doesn't that require you to tram the head each and every time?
Tilting heads always seemed time consuming to me.
(At least here, from my wannabe-machinist position.)

--
A sound mind in a sound body is a short but full description
of a happy state in this world.
-- John Locke

Larry Jaques wrote:

I understand that if I need a really _precise_ angle, I'm going with the
sine plate every time. But if I have a bunch of stuff where +-1/10
degree ain't gonna matter, I want to tilt the head.

Doesn't that require you to tram the head each and every time?
Tilting heads always seemed time consuming to me.
(At least here, from my wannabe-machinist position.)

If you want a quick angle that doesn't have to be super accurate you
tilt the head and use the scale on the head for the setting.

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Doesn't that require you to tram the head each and every time?
Tilting heads always seemed time consuming to me.

Yep, but with a tramming indicator (that itself has been 'trammed' to
zero, then handled with kid gloves), and some practice it takes maybe two
minutes. You don't take an absolute reading, anyway, but the average of
the two 180 apart, if they're reading a tenth or two out.

Lloyd

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:516ff7c6$0
:

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.


Yup, but I seldom do angled work that precise, and if I do, I just use
the sine plate to angle the work to the bed.

Brown & Sharp made some nice stuff!

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

Brown & Sharp made some nice stuff!


Sharpe... I know the diff, just can't type.
LS

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:35:09 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

I understand that if I need a really _precise_ angle, I'm going with the
sine plate every time. But if I have a bunch of stuff where +-1/10
degree ain't gonna matter, I want to tilt the head.

Doesn't that require you to tram the head each and every time?
Tilting heads always seemed time consuming to me.
(At least here, from my wannabe-machinist position.)

If you want a quick angle that doesn't have to be super accurate you
tilt the head and use the scale on the head for the setting.

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.

Filed for future reference. Thanks.

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Filed for future reference. Thanks.

???

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Pete C." fired this volley in news:516ff7c6$0
:

If you want a super accurate angle you setup a sine bar as your
reference, and then tram the tilted head on the sine bar to get it
precise.


Yup, but I seldom do angled work that precise, and if I do, I just use
the sine plate to angle the work to the bed.


I generally program a ball end mill to hemstitch the angle onto the
workholding fixture using X Z or Y Z stepover.

Takes a while but comes out dead nuts.

Brown & Sharp made some nice stuff!

Lloyd

On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:06:01 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Filed for future reference. Thanks.

???

You taught me something new, so I saved it, Lloyd. shrug

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an
excellent machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd


Yep! I did get it back-asswards, but I thank you for your understanding.

I put my money where my mouth was when I made my purchases. I've purchased
two BP's, both new. What I really wanted was a Gorton---but the money
wasn't there.

I fully agree on the flexibility of the BP machine--that (and its relatively
low price) is what made it so popular. It certainly isn't known for it's
rigidity, but it is one of the handiest of all drop spindle mills to
operate. With care, some very good work can be accomplished.

I did a lot of tooling work in my productive years. A great deal of it was
for Litton Guidance and Control, building tooling for the guidance systems
used in military aircraft. I served them for 16 years. All of it was
accomplished with a BP mill, without benefit of a DRO. In skilled hands,
they are quite capable----but they are not, nor will they ever be, the equal
of machines that outweigh them by 1,000 pounds. That's been my point
right along. You can't get rigidity without mass---and BP has a bare
minimum.

Harold

On Apr 18, 10:54*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in messagenews:XnsA1A5497853E72lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...









"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
t:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. * They are an
excellent machine. *Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. *Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. *My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

Yep! *I did get it back-asswards, but I thank you for your understanding.

I put my money where my mouth was when I made my purchases. *I've purchased
two BP's, both new. *What I really wanted was a Gorton---but the money
wasn't there.

I fully agree on the flexibility of the BP machine--that (and its relatively
low price) is what made it so popular. *It certainly isn't known for it's
rigidity, but it is one of the handiest of all drop spindle mills to
operate. * With care, some very good work can be accomplished.

I did a lot of tooling work in my productive years. * A great deal of it was
for Litton Guidance and Control, building tooling for the guidance systems
used in military aircraft. *I served them for 16 years. * * All of it was
accomplished with a BP mill, without benefit of a DRO. * In skilled hands,
they are quite capable----but they are not, nor will they ever be, the equal
of machines that outweigh them by 1,000 pounds. * * *That's been my point
right along. * You can't get rigidity without mass---and BP has a bare
minimum.

Harold

1. You can get rigidity without mass if it's a good design.

2. A knee mill is an inherently flawed design when it comes to
rigidity.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an
excellent machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).


Gunner


A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes.

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so even
in retirement. They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. In fact, they aren't even
scraped. They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*.
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. All other way surfaces are ground.

Look closely. They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. I think you know it, too!)

Harold

On Apr 18, 11:02*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message

news








On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. * They are an
excellent machine. *Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. *Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. *My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. *And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).

Gunner

A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. *Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. *In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes.

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so even
in retirement. *They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. *It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. * * In fact, they aren't even
scraped. * They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. *Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. *Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*..
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. * *All other way surfaces *are ground.

Look closely. *They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. *I think you know it, too!)

Harold


"The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the
head mounts. All other way surfaces are ground."

Not true.

http://youtu.be/NaKfxWzVyTE

"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
On Apr 17, 3:11 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
snip
Your failure to understand the problems with knee mill design is about
a humorous as you spending a week and still not being able to figure
out the firing order on your Ford Bronco. You're a clown act, Wieber.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

If you're trying to get to the root of what's real---it's in your not
understanding that discussion isn't revolving around how much better a bed
mill is than a knee mill. I don't know why the hell you went there in the
first place.

Who the hell cares which is better? This isn't a matter of Iggy making a
decision on which to buy---it's a matter of learning if his choice, already
made, was acceptable. I say it is, and my position is based on real world
experiences, not based on comparing unrelated machines, which serves no
purpose aside from distracting others who are equally as misguided as you
are and insist that there is no place for knee mills. If that was true,
they wouldn't still be on the market, and I dare say they are, and in large
numbers. So then, do you have anything of substance to offer, or are you
going to continue to add comments that are of no use?

Wouldn't you feel a lot better about yourself if you tried to help instead
of hinder? Seems to me you would, but then I don't know you. I may be
wrong.

Harold

On Apr 18, 4:09*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Gunner Asch fired this volley :

Unless you are doing really long pieces..if the head tilts side to
side..it can be used just as well as a front to back "nod"
(Im having a stroke moment here...cant remember what the "nod"
movement is called..damnit

No argument there. *I use(d when I had access to one) the side-tilt
almost exclusively. *My old Cincinatti #2 had a side tilt head. *I sold
it to make room in the shop, never thinking how much I'd miss it.

But... angle vises? *Talk about losing rigidity! *Besides, how would you
mount and swing a 150lb 12"x18" casting on that little toy?

(I'll honestly say I don't know the quality of the Yaesa, but _anything_
from Birmingham is just chinkalloy trash.)

LLoyd

Lloyd

"But... angle vises? Talk about losing rigidity! Besides, how would
you mount and swing a 150lb 12"x18" casting on that little toy?"

Wieber lacks milling experience. This is just another example where
Wieber shows it.

On Apr 18, 11:14*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message

...
On Apr 17, 3:11 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
snip
Your failure to understand the problems with knee mill design is about
a humorous as you spending a week and still not being able to figure
out the firing order on your Ford Bronco. You're a clown act, Wieber.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

If you're trying to get to the root of what's real---it's in your not
understanding that discussion isn't revolving around how much better a bed
mill is than a knee mill. * *I don't know why the hell you went there in the
first place.

Who the hell cares which is better? *This isn't a matter of Iggy making a
decision on which to buy---it's a matter of learning if his choice, already
made, was acceptable. *I say it is, and my position is based on real world
experiences, not based on comparing unrelated machines, which serves no
purpose aside from distracting others who are equally as misguided as you
are and insist that there is no place for knee mills. * If that was true,
they wouldn't still be on the market, and I dare say they are, and in large
numbers. * So then, do you have anything of substance to offer, or are you
going to continue to add comments that are of no use?

Wouldn't you feel a lot better about yourself if you tried to help instead
of hinder? * *Seems to me you would, but then I don't know you. *I may be
wrong.

Harold

You've already made a **** load of mistakes in this thread, Harold. I
strongly suggest you worry about learning from your mistakes rather
than defending a liar and a moron like Wieber.

On Apr 18, 10:54*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in messagenews:XnsA1A5497853E72lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...









"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
t:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. * They are an
excellent machine. *Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. *Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. *My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

Yep! *I did get it back-asswards, but I thank you for your understanding.

I put my money where my mouth was when I made my purchases. *I've purchased
two BP's, both new. *What I really wanted was a Gorton---but the money
wasn't there.

I fully agree on the flexibility of the BP machine--that (and its relatively
low price) is what made it so popular. *It certainly isn't known for it's
rigidity, but it is one of the handiest of all drop spindle mills to
operate. * With care, some very good work can be accomplished.

I did a lot of tooling work in my productive years. * A great deal of it was
for Litton Guidance and Control, building tooling for the guidance systems
used in military aircraft. *I served them for 16 years. * * All of it was
accomplished with a BP mill, without benefit of a DRO. * In skilled hands,
they are quite capable----but they are not, nor will they ever be, the equal
of machines that outweigh them by 1,000 pounds. * * *That's been my point
right along. * You can't get rigidity without mass---and BP has a bare
minimum.

Harold


" Yep! I did get it back-asswards, but I thank you for your
understanding."

You got a lot of things in this thread not just "back-asswards" but
down right wrong.

On Apr 18, 11:14*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message

...
On Apr 17, 3:11 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
snip
Your failure to understand the problems with knee mill design is about
a humorous as you spending a week and still not being able to figure
out the firing order on your Ford Bronco. You're a clown act, Wieber.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++

If you're trying to get to the root of what's real---it's in your not
understanding that discussion isn't revolving around how much better a bed
mill is than a knee mill. * *I don't know why the hell you went there in the
first place.

Who the hell cares which is better? *This isn't a matter of Iggy making a
decision on which to buy---it's a matter of learning if his choice, already
made, was acceptable. *I say it is, and my position is based on real world
experiences, not based on comparing unrelated machines, which serves no
purpose aside from distracting others who are equally as misguided as you
are and insist that there is no place for knee mills. * If that was true,
they wouldn't still be on the market, and I dare say they are, and in large
numbers. * So then, do you have anything of substance to offer, or are you
going to continue to add comments that are of no use?

Wouldn't you feel a lot better about yourself if you tried to help instead
of hinder? * *Seems to me you would, but then I don't know you. *I may be
wrong.

Harold

"So then, do you have anything of substance to offer, or are you going
to continue to add comments that are of no use?"

My comments in this thread are far more useful and accurate than yours
are, Harold. I've corrected your numerous mistakes and cleaned up your
bull****.

"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
On Apr 18, 11:02 pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message

news








On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an
excellent machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).

Gunner

A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes.

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so
even
in retirement. They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. In fact, they aren't even
scraped. They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*.
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. All other way surfaces are ground.

Look closely. They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. I think you know it, too!)

Harold


"The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the
head mounts. All other way surfaces are ground."

Not true.

http://youtu.be/NaKfxWzVyTE
================================================== ===========================
I am not discussing rebuilds. I said that BP mills are not scraped. Unless
you can provide evidence that I'm wrong, that still stands. Your opinion
has no value to me, as I've already seen how misguided you are.

If they're scraped, why is it that grinding marks are still evident?
Wouldn't scraping remove them?

I rest my case. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, and I'm
not going to get involved in a ****ing match with you. I've seen more than
enough of your *wisdom* to know that you aren't a credible source of
information, although, I must admit, you shine brightly at showing the world
what an ass you can be.

It's over with me ----there will be no further comments to you, or anything
you may say. I have much more important business to tend to----like
watching Gilligan's Island.

Harold

On Apr 19, 1:21*am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message

...
On Apr 18, 11:02 pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:









"Gunner Asch" wrote in message

news

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an
excellent machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).

Gunner

A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes.

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so
even
in retirement. They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. In fact, they aren't even
scraped. They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*.
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. All other way surfaces are ground.

Look closely. They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. I think you know it, too!)

Harold

"The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the
head mounts. All other way surfaces are ground."

Not true.

http://youtu.be/NaKfxWzVyTE
================================================== ===========================
I am not discussing rebuilds. I said that BP mills are not scraped. *Unless
you can provide evidence that I'm wrong, that still stands. * Your opinion
has no value to me, as I've already seen how misguided you are.

If they're scraped, why is it that grinding marks are still evident?
Wouldn't scraping remove them?

I rest my case. *You don't know what the hell you're talking about, and I'm
not going to get involved in a ****ing match with you. *I've seen more than
enough of your *wisdom* to know that you aren't a credible source of
information, although, I must admit, you shine brightly at showing the world
what an ass you can be.

It's over with me ----there will be no further comments to you, or anything
you may say. * I have much more important business to tend to----like
watching Gilligan's Island.

Harold

You talking out of your ass once again, Harold.

Bridgeport Series I mills were scrapped at the Bridgeport Machines
facility on Lindley Street in Bridgeport, CT. You might ask how I know
this if you weren't such a brain dead moron. The answer is I toured
the plant on Lindley St in Bridgeport, CT where Bridgeport knee mills
were made and watched them scrape the castings. I spent 36 of my 51
living in Connecticut and worked for many shops in Bridgeport,
Connecticut. I also had lots of friends who worked for Bridgeport
Machines at the Lindley Street facility.

How does it feel to be shown over and over again the proof of how
wrong you are you ****ing moron?

How many times in this thread have I shown how full of **** you are
and pointed out your many mistakes and worthless bull**** like I have
here?

Both you and your pal Wieber a both ****ing morons who often get it
wrong and have no clues.

On Apr 19, 1:37*am, jon_banquer wrote:
On Apr 19, 1:21*am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:









"jon_banquer" wrote in message

...
On Apr 18, 11:02 pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message

news

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:13:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" fired this volley in
:

A Gorton is to a BP what a Chev is to a Rolls Royce. They are an
excellent machine. Do not be discouraged by comments that have little
merit.

Harold

I think you reversed that. Bridgeports certainly are NOT Rolls-Royce
caliber!

OTOH, as rigid as the Gortons have reputations for being, I'd want a
tilt-head machine for my 'second-ops' position. My mill is a rigid-ram
machine, and there are things it would be nice to be able to do without
all the fuss and bother of sine plates and complex fixturing.

Lloyd

My I-22 has never had the head swung. And I do a fair amount of
machining.

Shrug

I hang around industrial machine shops for a living..and in the 16 or
so years Ive been repairing machines..I think..think I remember seeing
one swung or tilted.

Ayup...I do remember (1).

Gunner

A great deal depends on the shop in which a machine is used. Some may
dedicate given machines to altering head, ram and turret positions. In my
shop, there was but one machine at any one time---it served all purposes.

I've altered all of these setting time and again, and continue to do so
even
in retirement. They allow dealing with pieces that otherwise wouldn't be
possible.

Make no mistake---the features of a BP mill are exceedingly
valuable---that's the reason they've been so damned successful. It
certainly isn't because of their high quality. In fact, they aren't even
scraped. They are a very nice machine for the money, but they are not of
high quality. Never have been.

Not scraped, you say?

Please---I'm not open to discussion on this particular subject. Flaking,
which has been provided for aesthetics and oil control, *is not scraping*.
The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the head
mounts. All other way surfaces are ground.

Look closely. They are ground, so please don't argue. (Not aimed at you,
Gunner. I think you know it, too!)

Harold

"The only portion of a BP that is scraped is the knuckle on which the
head mounts. All other way surfaces are ground."

Not true.

http://youtu.be/NaKfxWzVyTE
================================================== ===========================
I am not discussing rebuilds. I said that BP mills are not scraped. *Unless
you can provide evidence that I'm wrong, that still stands. * Your opinion
has no value to me, as I've already seen how misguided you are.

If they're scraped, why is it that grinding marks are still evident?
Wouldn't scraping remove them?

I rest my case. *You don't know what the hell you're talking about, and I'm
not going to get involved in a ****ing match with you. *I've seen more than
enough of your *wisdom* to know that you aren't a credible source of
information, although, I must admit, you shine brightly at showing the world
what an ass you can be.

It's over with me ----there will be no further comments to you, or anything
you may say. * I have much more important business to tend to----like
watching Gilligan's Island.

Harold

You talking out of your ass once again, Harold.

Bridgeport Series I mills were scrapped at the Bridgeport Machines
facility on Lindley Street in Bridgeport, CT. You might ask how I know
this if you weren't such a brain dead moron. The answer is I toured
the plant on Lindley St in Bridgeport, CT where Bridgeport knee mills
were made and watched them scrape the castings. I spent 36 of my 51
living in Connecticut and worked for many shops in Bridgeport,
Connecticut. I also had lots of friends who worked for Bridgeport
Machines at the Lindley Street facility.

How does it feel to be shown over and over again the proof of how
wrong you are you ****ing moron?

How many times in this thread have I shown how full of **** you are
and pointed out your many mistakes and worthless bull**** like I have
here?

Both you and your pal Wieber a both ****ing morons who often get it
wrong and have no clues.

Here's some more proof that they were scrapped at the Bridgeport
Machines facility on Lindley St. in Bridgeport CT and were also hand
scrapped when production of the Bridgeport Series I was moved to
Hardinge in Elmira, NY:

http://americanmachinist.com/machini...-american-icon

"We kept specialized equipment that was modified for the Bridgeport
product," remarks Elliott. "But on some components, we could do the
work faster, better, and more economically on our own machines." While
decreasing cycle times was an important part of Hardinge's plans, it
didn't skimp on product quality. For instance, the company still hand
scrapes all contact surfaces."

I've lost track of how much misinformation and outright bull**** you
have posted in this thread, Harold. You're an ignorant asshole just
like Wieber is.

Weiber has destroy this newsgroup and only idiots like you are left,
Harold.

Please **** off and die as soon as possible.