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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. I had thought about cutting the bottom panel out of it to gain entry then welding it back in as I did with a Wendy's Restaurant money safe but I don't know if there are any partitions in this box. I have a TAYLOR safe which I successfully drilled, thanks to a locksmith years ago but I have since lost track of him. I'm looking for a locksmith or someone else who will tell me what the correct drill point is. |
#2
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:13:41 -0400, Ro Grrr
wrote: I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. I had thought about cutting the bottom panel out of it to gain entry then welding it back in as I did with a Wendy's Restaurant money safe but I don't know if there are any partitions in this box. I have a TAYLOR safe which I successfully drilled, thanks to a locksmith years ago but I have since lost track of him. I'm looking for a locksmith or someone else who will tell me what the correct drill point is. Good luck on anyone just coming out and telling you how to break into it - without asking for a cut of the loot inside... The whole idea of a safe is to be resistant to forced entry, and especially on high end items like Diebold there are elaborate safeguards inside to make it slow and difficult on purpose. Any ethical locksmith, the first thing he does is check you out to make sure you're in lawful possession of that safe and should be let inside. And this might involve a three-way discussion with Local Law Enforcement. If he busts into a stolen safe for you, he becomes an accessory to the original crime - and he doesn't want that. Then once you pass that test, he takes your money, wanders off to a secure area with the safe - or shoos you out of the room if he has to do it in place - while he breaks into the safe. No pictures or video allowed. Then he installs a new lock (set to the combination you want) and takes the remains of the old lock with him for disposal so you can't see how it was done. And the unethical Locksmiths are usually in prison, or working in another profession. The licensing is too stringent, and you don't work in the field without one. If you want to see how the locking mechanism of your safe works, you'll have to take the door apart yourself later on your own. -- Bruce -- |
#3
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-07, Ro Grrr wrote:
I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. The first thing to do is try the "storage" combination, and the reverse of that in case someone mis-remembered the order when setting it for storage. Starting to the left: 50 L (past three times and then stop on) 25 R (past two times and then stop on) 50 L (past once and then stop on) 0 R (and then either continue if there is not a turn bar in the center of the knob, or Turn the bar and go back left until it stops. or perhaps (same pattern) 25 50 25 0 I had thought about cutting the bottom panel out of it to gain entry then welding it back in as I did with a Wendy's Restaurant money safe but I don't know if there are any partitions in this box. If it is the one which I dealt with at work, there are three full-width shelves inside it. I never tried to change the height, so I'm not sure whether they are movable or not, but I think that they are. We had some interesting classified hardware stored in the bottom of one of them. And I believe that these were made to resist fire, so they have a thick wall full of asbestos-concrete, which I believe also applies to the floor of the cabinet. I have a TAYLOR safe which I successfully drilled, thanks to a locksmith years ago but I have since lost track of him. I'm looking for a locksmith or someone else who will tell me what the correct drill point is. Typically, these things (Diebold, Mosler and similar) have a layer of really nasty stuff to drill through. A mix of concrete, old indexable tool inserts, broken file fragments, and anything else to make the task much more difficult. Good Luck, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#4
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
I go to auctions and I often see safes without keys. They have next to
no scrap value, due to concrete between the walls. Therefore, they usually are free or almost free to take. I may just buy a couple and try to open them and perhaps shoot a couple of videos on "how to open a safe with a torch". i |
#5
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-07, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2012-10-07, Ro Grrr wrote: I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. The first thing to do is try the "storage" combination, and the reverse of that in case someone mis-remembered the order when setting it for storage. Starting to the left: 50 L (past three times and then stop on) 25 R (past two times and then stop on) 50 L (past once and then stop on) 0 R (and then either continue if there is not a turn bar in the center of the knob, or Turn the bar and go back left until it stops. or perhaps (same pattern) 25 50 25 0 I had thought about cutting the bottom panel out of it to gain entry then welding it back in as I did with a Wendy's Restaurant money safe but I don't know if there are any partitions in this box. If it is the one which I dealt with at work, there are three full-width shelves inside it. I never tried to change the height, so I'm not sure whether they are movable or not, but I think that they are. We had some interesting classified hardware stored in the bottom of one of them. And I believe that these were made to resist fire, so they have a thick wall full of asbestos-concrete, which I believe also applies to the floor of the cabinet. I have a TAYLOR safe which I successfully drilled, thanks to a locksmith years ago but I have since lost track of him. I'm looking for a locksmith or someone else who will tell me what the correct drill point is. Typically, these things (Diebold, Mosler and similar) have a layer of really nasty stuff to drill through. A mix of concrete, old indexable tool inserts, broken file fragments, and anything else to make the task much more difficult. A few safes that I saw, would be easy to open from the bottom with a torch. i |
#6
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
No honorable locksmith would ever divulge security information like that.
Shame on you for asking a locksmith to dishonor himself. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Ro Grrr" wrote in message ... I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. I had thought about cutting the bottom panel out of it to gain entry then welding it back in as I did with a Wendy's Restaurant money safe but I don't know if there are any partitions in this box. I have a TAYLOR safe which I successfully drilled, thanks to a locksmith years ago but I have since lost track of him. I'm looking for a locksmith or someone else who will tell me what the correct drill point is. |
#7
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
You, I like!
On a slightly related subject. I was approached a couple weeks ago. There is a lock picking club in a city near me. They wanted me to attend their meetings and possibly teach lock picking. I managed to remain far more polite than he deserved, and declined. Which, writing here, is far more polite than I wish to wrote. I've been in the locksmith trade since 1985. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote Good luck on anyone just coming out and telling you how to break into it - without asking for a cut of the loot inside... The whole idea of a safe is to be resistant to forced entry, and especially on high end items like Diebold there are elaborate safeguards inside to make it slow and difficult on purpose. Any ethical locksmith, the first thing he does is check you out to make sure you're in lawful possession of that safe and should be let inside. And this might involve a three-way discussion with Local Law Enforcement. If he busts into a stolen safe for you, he becomes an accessory to the original crime - and he doesn't want that. Then once you pass that test, he takes your money, wanders off to a secure area with the safe - or shoos you out of the room if he has to do it in place - while he breaks into the safe. No pictures or video allowed. Then he installs a new lock (set to the combination you want) and takes the remains of the old lock with him for disposal so you can't see how it was done. And the unethical Locksmiths are usually in prison, or working in another profession. The licensing is too stringent, and you don't work in the field without one. If you want to see how the locking mechanism of your safe works, you'll have to take the door apart yourself later on your own. -- Bruce -- |
#8
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:31:22 -0500, Ignoramus25258
wrote: I go to auctions and I often see safes without keys. They have next to no scrap value, due to concrete between the walls. Therefore, they usually are free or almost free to take. I may just buy a couple and try to open them and perhaps shoot a couple of videos on "how to open a safe with a torch". Iggy, I strongly suggest you resist the urge. Unless you want a creative prosecutor to find your training video on the would-be Safe Cracker's computer and charge you as an Accessory... Just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD. Commercial Burglary Resistant Safes are rated at how long it takes the average crook without insider knowledge to get into them - and the longer they fumble around with it, the greater chances they get caught in the act. You 'blow the curve' by teaching the crooks how to do it, and the FBI isn't going to be happy with you. -- Bruce -- |
#9
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 10/7/2012 8:14 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
No honorable locksmith would ever divulge security information like that. Shame on you for asking a locksmith to dishonor himself. So, locksmiths have greater integrity than the rest of us? And does becoming a locksmith require an FBI background check to insure honorable-ity, or what? I seem to recall "Study at Home to be a Locksmith" ads in Popular Mechanics - how did they screen students? Please. Bob |
#10
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-08, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) wrote:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:31:22 -0500, Ignoramus25258 wrote: I go to auctions and I often see safes without keys. They have next to no scrap value, due to concrete between the walls. Therefore, they usually are free or almost free to take. I may just buy a couple and try to open them and perhaps shoot a couple of videos on "how to open a safe with a torch". Iggy, I strongly suggest you resist the urge. Unless you want a creative prosecutor to find your training video on the would-be Safe Cracker's computer and charge you as an Accessory... I call this bull****. Seriously. Just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD. Commercial Burglary Resistant Safes are rated at how long it takes the average crook without insider knowledge to get into them - and the longer they fumble around with it, the greater chances they get caught in the act. You 'blow the curve' by teaching the crooks how to do it, and the FBI isn't going to be happy with you. I am sure that they will not care. There is no law that says I cannot film how I break into a safe that I own. i |
#11
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On Monday, October 8, 2012 12:29:03 PM UTC-5, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 10/7/2012 8:14 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: No honorable locksmith would ever divulge security information like that. Shame on you for asking a locksmith to dishonor himself. So, locksmiths have greater integrity than the rest of us? And does becoming a locksmith require an FBI background check to insure honorable-ity, or what? I seem to recall "Study at Home to be a Locksmith" ads in Popular Mechanics - how did they screen students? Please. Bob Take a look he http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRUwkT3W5Nk There are a lot of articles about using a stepper or servo motor to try all the combinations. In Richard Feynman's book, he mentioned that just Any number might also get the two adjacent numbers. So, about 15 stops on the dial might cover all possible numbers. Depending on the quality of the lock. Is it unethical for locksmiths to allow anyone else to do things on their own? And by the code of ethics, everyone MUST pay the locksmith's hourly rate, or else? Is that similar to the code of ethics of magicians, not to reveal the secrets? Just curious. |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
Ignoramus25258 wrote:
I go to auctions and I often see safes without keys. They have next to no scrap value, due to concrete between the walls. Therefore, they usually are free or almost free to take. I may just buy a couple and try to open them and perhaps shoot a couple of videos on "how to open a safe with a torch". i Maybe have a look at episode 2 of the British channel 4 programme "Man Made Home" where they make a home made thermal lance to cut open a safe to convert to a wood stove. Shame it's not BBC as that doesn't have commercials and I can't remember whether it was the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd part of the programme that they cut the safe. When you see the result though it didn't really look like a thermal lance was required just a OA cutter or plasma might have done as the safe looked to be single skinned and not that thick but the lance made for good viewing I expect. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/k...me/4od#3415632 |
#13
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-08, David Billington wrote:
Ignoramus25258 wrote: I go to auctions and I often see safes without keys. They have next to no scrap value, due to concrete between the walls. Therefore, they usually are free or almost free to take. I may just buy a couple and try to open them and perhaps shoot a couple of videos on "how to open a safe with a torch". i Maybe have a look at episode 2 of the British channel 4 programme "Man Made Home" where they make a home made thermal lance to cut open a safe to convert to a wood stove. Shame it's not BBC as that doesn't have commercials and I can't remember whether it was the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd part of the programme that they cut the safe. When you see the result though it didn't really look like a thermal lance was required just a OA cutter or plasma might have done as the safe looked to be single skinned and not that thick but the lance made for good viewing I expect. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/k...me/4od#3415632 A lance is needed to cut through concrete. i |
#14
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-08, Cross-Slide wrote:
On Monday, October 8, 2012 12:29:03 PM UTC-5, Bob Engelhardt wrote: On 10/7/2012 8:14 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: No honorable locksmith would ever divulge security information like that. [ ... ] Take a look he http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRUwkT3W5Nk Hmm ... I don't see anything actually trying the handle after each set of combination numbers were dialed in, so I'm not sure how it would know when it was done. (And I really hate those stop-motion "videos" which really don't show you much of what is happening. There are a lot of articles about using a stepper or servo motor to try all the combinations. In Richard Feynman's book, he mentioned that just Any number might also get the two adjacent numbers. So, about 15 stops on the dial might cover all possible numbers. Depending on the quality of the lock. Hmm ... that would cover 45 numbers -- and the kind of locks on the secure storage cabinet which started this have 100 digits on the dial, so you would need 33 tries not fifteen to cover all the positions with one rotation of the dial. And since the combination has three numbers (dial positions), with multiple turns between most of them, that adds up to nearly 36,000 tries so even at the relative speed of the stepper operation, it would take quite a while. And from experience with those locks, I think that they are a bit tighter than three adjacent numbers possibly working -- it was so easy to overshoot the target numbers and have to do it again. (This also said that you have to turn *slowly*, or the notched disk can overshoot the dial when you stop.) This, in the S&G ones. The Diebold ones (or was it Mosler) at work had very light plastic discs, and rather stiff to turn dials, so it was less likely to overshoot. Hmm ... I never had one of my own of those to play with (unlike the S&Gs which were fitted to a lot of a dozen of the security file cabinets which a friend and I got at a surplus auction) so I don't know whether the plastic (it was black) was Delrin, or a more easily melted thermoplastic. If so -- (lots of) heat applied via the dial shank might melt them and allow it to be opened without a combination. And on at least some of the dials (e.g. S&G), it is possible to install the dial on the shank, so you go through the whole set, with the standard "stop on zero" for the forth number and still never get it. (Though I doubt that many were ever set up with a different "stop on" number.) I don't even remember whether the standard form for recording the safe combination had room for a variable final number, or simply had a "stop on zero" pre-printed. (These forms, BTW, were stored in another safe, up the chain of command from the one for which the number was being saved.) Is it unethical for locksmiths to allow anyone else to do things on their own? And by the code of ethics, everyone MUST pay the locksmith's hourly rate, or else? Is that similar to the code of ethics of magicians, not to reveal the secrets? You can (these days) learn a lot about locksmithing from the web. But at any previous period, if you have some locks to play with, you can learn a lot without guidance, if you have mechanical skills and intuition. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#15
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
Ro Grrr wrote:
I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. Do you know if it is a 3-number combination or 5? If 3 numbers, I'd just try them all, it is probably a lot faster than trying to drill a good safe, even if you knew the exact spot. Jon |
#16
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
Most do.
Varies by state. My locksmith eduction was decades ago, so I don't know how they do it now. Of course, it's not a perfect world. I've heard of "baddies" slipping in some how. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ... On 10/7/2012 8:14 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: No honorable locksmith would ever divulge security information like that. Shame on you for asking a locksmith to dishonor himself. So, locksmiths have greater integrity than the rest of us? And does becoming a locksmith require an FBI background check to insure honorable-ity, or what? I seem to recall "Study at Home to be a Locksmith" ads in Popular Mechanics - how did they screen students? Please. Bob |
#17
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
In a somewhat slightly still free society, locksmiths don't "allow anyone
else" to do this or that. But, we can refrain from teaching lock defeating skills to others. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Cross-Slide" wrote in message ... Is it unethical for locksmiths to allow anyone else to do things on their own? And by the code of ethics, everyone MUST pay the locksmith's hourly rate, or else? Is that similar to the code of ethics of magicians, not to reveal the secrets? Just curious. |
#18
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 10/7/2012 12:13 PM, Ro Grrr wrote:
I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. I had thought about cutting the bottom panel out of it to gain entry then welding it back in as I did with a Wendy's Restaurant money safe but I don't know if there are any partitions in this box. I have a TAYLOR safe which I successfully drilled, thanks to a locksmith years ago but I have since lost track of him. I'm looking for a locksmith or someone else who will tell me what the correct drill point is. Ask the police if there is a safe-cracker out of jail that does that work. We paid 100$ and it took him 20 minutes and no damage. |
#19
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-08, Jon Elson wrote:
Ro Grrr wrote: I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. Do you know if it is a 3-number combination or 5? If 3 numbers, I'd just try them all, it is probably a lot faster than trying to drill a good safe, even if you knew the exact spot. I've not seen a photo of his, nor much of a description other than "DIEBOLD" and "two-door", but the safes which the Government uses (at least at army R&D labs, where at least medium classification levels are common) use combination locks with 100 numbers on the dial, and three setable numbers, plus a final zero. And depending on which flavor of locks were used, you either have to hold the dial at that final zero, and turn a small central bar and then rotate it a bit more -- and doing that disturbs the previously set discs, so you have to go through the full dial operation again to try the next. And then you have to try the handle to see whether it really withdrew the bolt -- though you can probably tell by feel once familiar with the lock. Assuming that all three numbers could be any of the 100, that leaves 1,000,000 combinations to try. Normally, you are advised to avoid number near zero (especially on the last one, but assuming that you avoid 98 through 02, that still leaves 857,375 combinations to try. (And also consecutive numbers should not be too close to each other, which reduces the count a bit more, but not really enough. :-) Let's assume that my 857,375 count is reasonable, and that it takes about 30 seconds to dial a combination. If you have to try every combination, that calculates to about 297 days of 24 hours a day trials. Drop it back to 8 hours per day (so you can get other things done), and that becomes 893 days -- or well on your way to three years. :-) And this is not counting some way to keep records of what has been tried. I would advise a computer with a toe-operated switch to increment the numbers -- and with battery backup so you don't lose your count. Since the combination is likely to be anywhere in the range, you might write a program to generate random numbers, and keep track of which ones have already been tried. You might include statistics to tell you what percentage of the way through the choices you are -- just to keep you depressed until you are a couple of years into the project. It is not quite as easy as holding a cheap combination padlock in your hand and twiddling while applying strain to the hasp, which is likely to open it without serious concentration in a few minutes. :-) Oh yes -- this is mounted on something the size of a couple of file cabinets side by side, with thick walls filled with concrete or asbestos/concrete mix to maximize the insulation during a fire, so you can't just bring it over to where you sit down -- you have to go to it, and set up as comfortable a chair as possible which allows you to reach the dial and manipulate it for hours at a time. You *will* miss-dial some, so you need a way to tell the computer to try that one again (perhaps just by not tapping your toe on the switch) -- *if* you realize that you have misdialed it. Towards the end of the seventh hour, you probably won't. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#20
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
DoN. Nichols wrote:
Assuming that all three numbers could be any of the 100, that leaves 1,000,000 combinations to try. Normally, you are advised to avoid number near zero (especially on the last one, but assuming that you avoid 98 through 02, that still leaves 857,375 combinations to try. (And also consecutive numbers should not be too close to each other, which reduces the count a bit more, but not really enough. :-) Well, Richard Feynman was able to crack the safes at Los Alamos in a couple hours, and I assume they were of similar specifications. Not clear what tricks he used. Some of these have all sorts of suicide devices in them, such as tempered glass plates that shatter when you drill in the wrong place, and totally jam the works. You then have to saw the entire door in half to get it open. Jon |
#21
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 10/8/2012 8:54 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote: Assuming that all three numbers could be any of the 100, that leaves 1,000,000 combinations to try. Normally, you are advised to avoid number near zero (especially on the last one, but assuming that you avoid 98 through 02, that still leaves 857,375 combinations to try. (And also consecutive numbers should not be too close to each other, which reduces the count a bit more, but not really enough. :-) Well, Richard Feynman was able to crack the safes at Los Alamos in a couple hours, and I assume they were of similar specifications. Not clear what tricks he used. Some of these have all sorts of suicide devices in them, such as tempered glass plates that shatter when you drill in the wrong place, and totally jam the works. You then have to saw the entire door in half to get it open. Jon according to Feynman's book, these were padlocks, presumably the early Sargent and Greenleaf type - the later ones had some anti-tamper features but the earlier ones could be felt out, at least for a few numbers, limiting what you had to try. go to a surplus store and buy a bag of these locks, they are deprecated now. -- For a $5 dollar donation today you get credit for $10 with HIM |
#22
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 10/08/2012 12:27 PM, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) wrote:
Commercial Burglary Resistant Safes are rated at how long it takes the average crook without insider knowledge to get into them - and the longer they fumble around with it, the greater chances they get caught in the act. No, they are rated on how long it takes an _expert_team_ with full knowledge of the internal construction and an assortment of tools (common hand tools for TL-15, add abrasive cutting wheels and power saws for TL-30) to gain entry. And, the time is "net working time," i.e., when the tool comes off the safe, the clock stops. You can view a video of the testing of a Meilink Gibraltar TL-30 safe at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860 . -- Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42" |
#23
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
Read Feynman's books - they are worth the time. He noted the last number from inspecting open safes (actually "secure file cabinets" IIRC). It was a flaw in the design. He found (IIRC without re-reading the book right now) that the numbers were not overly precise - so 100 numbers might really be 25-33 if running trials. This is a pretty common flaw of 100 number safe dials, at least on the lower end. If the spec says 100 numbers, they put on 100 numbers, but if the numbers are all off by one or two, the safe still opens... He pointed both of these flaws out to security, which rather than fixing them, responded in typical idiotic fashion - at least until they needed him. He also used the same tricks that any password cracker uses now - common numbers people might choose - anniversaries, children's birthdays, numbers scribbled on the desk drawers, etc. And if he cracked one in 20 minutes, he made sure to read something for another couple of hours before opening the office door, so as to not make it look too easy. For a safe you actually own, the correct way to computerize the process would be a robot dial-spinner - doesn't need to sleep and won't fudge up the numbers if it's built right. But you do need to know the correct directions to spin for that model of safe (no matter what you are using.) Just the thing for a spare servo (or stepper) motor and controller, plus a linear actuator or something for the handle part. Let it grind away until it pops, and figure some way to note when it pops so you save the right numbers. The you could re-run trials to see how wide the band of numbers that work is to figure what the center numbers (ie, the real combination) should be. If making new combination locks now I suppose you might include some means of noting too much dial twiddling, but I guess the serious safes all went to time locks to deal with that problem anyway. Any safe you can pick up (with a forklift, if needed) is ultimately not all that serious, is it? -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away. |
#24
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-09, Jon Elson wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote: Assuming that all three numbers could be any of the 100, that leaves 1,000,000 combinations to try. Normally, you are advised to avoid number near zero (especially on the last one, but assuming that you avoid 98 through 02, that still leaves 857,375 combinations to try. (And also consecutive numbers should not be too close to each other, which reduces the count a bit more, but not really enough. :-) Well, Richard Feynman was able to crack the safes at Los Alamos in a couple hours, and I assume they were of similar specifications. Not clear what tricks he used. Among other things -- he knew the mindset of the individual people who set the combinations, so the number of tries was significantly reduced. Things like a physicist being likely to use physical constants as combinations, mathemeticians likely to use "pi" and "e" as combinations, auto license plate numbers, dates of birth or marriage, names of spouses, kids, and pets and similar -- and they were not required to change them as often as later. I know that we had to change them about every six months, and were in the habit of using words -- converted todigits by the telephone dial (ignoring 'Q' and 'Z'). There was always a phone near the safes, so this was a convenient way to do it. Once, decades ago now, a sequence of three security file cabinets in one room was set to "howcum nobody toldme" or 46-92-86-(0), 66-26-39-(0), and 83-63-63-(0). This was making fun of a common phrase of one particular co-worker. :-) Some of these have all sorts of suicide devices in them, such as tempered glass plates that shatter when you drill in the wrong place, and totally jam the works. You then have to saw the entire door in half to get it open. Since we had nothing above "Secret", certainly not "Top Secret" or any of the crypto or nuclear secrets (at least in our area) and most was just "Confidential" or "FOUO" (For Official Use Only), we did not have anything this Draconian. The closest to this is a couple of data encryption devices which I got at a hamfest (with the Medco keys for the locks), which was set up so you needed both keys to get to the bolts which kept in in the rather thick metal housing (one key for normal use, and the other for loading new encryption keys into it), and you had to spend a long time taking out a long fine-threaded screw. The first thing that happens as you start to back that screw out is a metal arm is lowered to short out the power to the CMOS RAM chip which kept the keys, so even if you got into it, you could not read the keys (and they would normally be changed in a week anyway. :-) BTW -- for setting the encryption keys on a Wi-Fi device, I will type a fairly long paragraph, and then take a MD5 checksum of the paragraph and use *that* as the key. It is a good match for the maximum length of key the devices will accept. As an example, let me take *this* paragraph up to the colon: And it comes out with "eab0d091f3856c6253db169628dac12f" as the key. And for an example of how little a change makes how big a change, my editor in the test above always adds a newline to the end of the last line so I went into it to take off that with a different editor, and got "fa9482e83bfad920695d9022a561cc2a" And convert it to a MS-DOS format (CR & LF at the end of each line) and it becomes: "76c2b9fccab610d5afa16ba685918b30". Unix uses only a LF (line-feed) (which it calls a "newline" character at the end of each line, and older MacOS (pre OS-X which is really unix with a fancy GUI over it) used only a CR (Carriage Return) at the end of each line. However, the changes don't matter, since you generate it *once*, and then type it into each system that needs it. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#25
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 10/7/2012 9:13 AM, Ro Grrr wrote:
I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. Here's a technique for opening a safe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dxFHc5e9ik |
#26
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-09, Ecnerwal wrote:
Read Feynman's books - they are worth the time. He noted the last number from inspecting open safes (actually "secure file cabinets" IIRC). It was a flaw in the design. :-) Yes -- you need to know the offset from the last digit dialed to the extra rotation needed to withdraw the bolt, of course. Pretty much a constant within a single brand of safe and lock. He found (IIRC without re-reading the book right now) that the numbers were not overly precise - so 100 numbers might really be 25-33 if running trials. This is a pretty common flaw of 100 number safe dials, at least on the lower end. If the spec says 100 numbers, they put on 100 numbers, but if the numbers are all off by one or two, the safe still opens... At least the setting dials (hub rotates within the disc when unlocked by a special key from the inside in the S&G locks) do have 100 different points on the knurling, so you can set them that precisely. It is all down to how tight a fit the projection on the withdrawal lever is to the notches -- and it has to be at least a certain degree of loose, because the lever swings instead of moving in linearly, so there has to be a certain amount of slop. He pointed both of these flaws out to security, which rather than fixing them, responded in typical idiotic fashion - at least until they needed him. Of course. "You are not a security expert! We don't have to listen to you." :-) He also used the same tricks that any password cracker uses now - common numbers people might choose - anniversaries, children's birthdays, numbers scribbled on the desk drawers, etc. Indeed so. And if he cracked one in 20 minutes, he made sure to read something for another couple of hours before opening the office door, so as to not make it look too easy. :-) For a safe you actually own, the correct way to computerize the process would be a robot dial-spinner - doesn't need to sleep and won't fudge up the numbers if it's built right. But you do need to know the correct directions to spin for that model of safe (no matter what you are using.) Just the thing for a spare servo (or stepper) motor and controller, plus a linear actuator or something for the handle part. Let it grind away until it pops, and figure some way to note when it pops so you save the right numbers. The you could re-run trials to see how wide the band of numbers that work is to figure what the center numbers (ie, the real combination) should be. Once you have it open -- you can (if necessary) disassemble the lock and set the combination to what you want. If you have the S&G style of lock, you re-dial the combination which worked to a different index line (about 10 or 15 degrees to the left of the working one), put a special key (extruded square stock with one flange sticking out, a notch to clear the backplate of the lock, and a pilot bearing on the inner end), which goes through square holes in cams on the dials -- now lined up under the hole by the re-dialing on the alternate index line) and turn it CCW to unlock the discs from the hubs. You then dial the *new* combination using the offset index line, turn and remove the key, test several times that the new combination works *before* ever closing the safe drawer or door. And make sure that you can *remember* that combination, or expect to have to go through this again. If you have an S&G lock apart and no known combination, turn each of the locking cams to loose, stack them back on the spindle, and rotate them by hand to line up with the socket for the end of the setting key, keep something round in there while you put the backplate back on, and then replace the round shaft with the key, dial the new combination, and lock it in as above. The Mosler security file cabinets had a lock which *had* to be disassembled to change the combination. You pull four screws and remove the works with the backplate. Then remove a C-clip and slide the discs off the spindle. Each one is two part. The hub is splined and snaps into a matching spline in the disc, and molded into the disc is the dial of numbers from 0 to 99. So, you rotate the hub and snap it into the disc to set the combination. Three times -- one for each disk. And make sure that you assemble them in the proper order. The above about testing that the combination *works* several times before you ever risk closing the drawer applies as above. If making new combination locks now I suppose you might include some means of noting too much dial twiddling, That requires memory, which requires a reliable power source, especially to energize the solenoid to lock it against other rotation. (You might as well make it a numeric keypad to enter the combination, but again the need for a reliable power source comes into the game. And what do you make it do if the power fails? Does it lock forever? Does to fail unlocked? Do you have provisions for connecting an external power source if the battery dies? What if someone applies too much power to those connections, frying the circuit? All questions which apply to a lock with memory. :-) but I guess the serious safes all went to time locks to deal with that problem anyway. Any safe you can pick up (with a forklift, if needed) is ultimately not all that serious, is it? :-) Actually -- you are now talking about vaults, and usually the wall or the floor or ceiling are typically the weak points in there. Certainly that is how I would have tried to get into the vault at the head office of our division if necessary. (E.g. if they changed the combination and it did not work after the door closed. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#27
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote: If making new combination locks now I suppose you might include some means of noting too much dial twiddling, That requires memory, which requires a reliable power source, especially to energize the solenoid to lock it against other rotation. (You might as well make it a numeric keypad to enter the combination, but again the need for a reliable power source comes into the game. And what do you make it do if the power fails? Does it lock forever? Does to fail unlocked? Do you have provisions for connecting an external power source if the battery dies? What if someone applies too much power to those connections, frying the circuit? All questions which apply to a lock with memory. :-) Well, obviously the folks that will use electronic locks do go there, but I was thinking (somewhat vaguely) more of something mechanical like a "wax or grease clutch" that would heat up with excessive repeated dial spinning and disengage the dial and the rotors, as I was contemplating a servo motor spinning the dials for hours on end. But it's really not needed or particularly useful, since there have been other solutions for decades that work fine for the purpose. The typical small-firesafe (not much of a safe) type electronic lock seems to be battery powered, locked forever if not powered, remembers combination in non-volatile memory if the batteries die or are removed, and the batteries can be replaced from outside. Presumably they fry and stay locked if overvolted. If it's got power to take a combination, it has power to note that it's had 3 wrong attempts in the past 5 minutes, or whatever time limit you pick. As with any, if they can pick it up and take it with them, it doesn't matter how it's locked, it will be opened. If they can't pick it up and want what's in it badly enough, they'll have means to cut it open or they'll make you open it for them... And if it's yours and it fails locked, you'll cut it open or get it cut open. I think the last time safes came up in the group there was a shaggy dog story of someone who whimsically built a vault door (surplus, perhaps) into the basement, which became known, which lead to him unlocking it (rather shakily) at gunpoint one night (nothing to speak of in it per the shaggy dog) which lead to the door being removed from the hinges for the remainder of his tenancy in the house. I do think that the dial-spinner would be a good robot project - buy the cheap safes with lost combinations, park them in the corner until the robot non-destructively unlocks them, remove goodies if any (possible but unlikely, since goodies in lost combination safes tend to lead to the owner of said goodies having the door cut off) and sell the unlocked, undamaged safe for a better price. But it would require at least enough information to know that "this lock has to be spun 4 times to the right before the first number", etc. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away. |
#28
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
a friend wrote:
according to Feynman's book, these were padlocks, presumably the early Sargent and Greenleaf type - the later ones had some anti-tamper features but the earlier ones could be felt out, at least for a few numbers, limiting what you had to try. go to a surplus store and buy a bag of these locks, they are deprecated now. Master padlocks are easy. But, I am SURE he was referring to secure file cabinets and safes at Los Alamos during the Manhattan project. Jon |
#29
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
Ecnerwal wrote:
Read Feynman's books - they are worth the time. He noted the last number from inspecting open safes (actually "secure file cabinets" IIRC). It was a flaw in the design. My only experience is with the 5-number safe in our lab. It twirls the dial when the unlocking handle is pulled up. Jon |
#30
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-09, Ecnerwal wrote:
In article , "DoN. Nichols" wrote: [ ... ] That requires memory, which requires a reliable power source, especially to energize the solenoid to lock it against other rotation. (You might as well make it a numeric keypad to enter the combination, but again the need for a reliable power source comes into the game. And what do you make it do if the power fails? Does it lock forever? Does to fail unlocked? Do you have provisions for connecting an external power source if the battery dies? What if someone applies too much power to those connections, frying the circuit? All questions which apply to a lock with memory. :-) Well, obviously the folks that will use electronic locks do go there, but I was thinking (somewhat vaguely) more of something mechanical like a "wax or grease clutch" that would heat up with excessive repeated dial spinning and disengage the dial and the rotors, as I was contemplating a servo motor spinning the dials for hours on end. But it's really not needed or particularly useful, since there have been other solutions for decades that work fine for the purpose. O.K. You were thinking of powered attempts, not hand attempts, that does make a difference. The typical small-firesafe (not much of a safe) type electronic lock seems to be battery powered, locked forever if not powered, remembers combination in non-volatile memory if the batteries die or are removed, and the batteries can be replaced from outside. O.K. That works. I've avoided those because I was not sure that the batteries could be replaced from outside -- or that the safe could be opened after the internal batteries died. :-) Presumably they fry and stay locked if overvolted. If it's got power to take a combination, it has power to note that it's had 3 wrong attempts in the past 5 minutes, or whatever time limit you pick. And then start ignoring any more input until the required quiescent period had elapsed. As with any, if they can pick it up and take it with them, it doesn't matter how it's locked, it will be opened. If they can't pick it up and want what's in it badly enough, they'll have means to cut it open or they'll make you open it for them... And if it's yours and it fails locked, you'll cut it open or get it cut open. I think the last time safes came up in the group there was a shaggy dog story of someone who whimsically built a vault door (surplus, perhaps) into the basement, which became known, which lead to him unlocking it (rather shakily) at gunpoint one night (nothing to speak of in it per the shaggy dog) which lead to the door being removed from the hinges for the remainder of his tenancy in the house. :-) I had an opportunity to bid on a used government surplus vault door, but just getting it home would be difficult enough. :-) I do think that the dial-spinner would be a good robot project - buy the cheap safes with lost combinations, park them in the corner until the robot non-destructively unlocks them, remove goodies if any (possible but unlikely, since goodies in lost combination safes tend to lead to the owner of said goodies having the door cut off) and sell the unlocked, undamaged safe for a better price. But it would require at least enough information to know that "this lock has to be spun 4 times to the right before the first number", etc. And typically, the government security file cabinet locks (three setable numbers) jstart off to the left, not to the right (required, if the final motion to withdraw the bolt is to be in the proper direction. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-09, Jon Elson wrote:
a friend wrote: according to Feynman's book, these were padlocks, presumably the early Sargent and Greenleaf type - the later ones had some anti-tamper features but the earlier ones could be felt out, at least for a few numbers, limiting what you had to try. go to a surplus store and buy a bag of these locks, they are deprecated now. Master padlocks are easy. But, I am SURE he was referring to secure file cabinets and safes at Los Alamos during the Manhattan project. Well ... I have seen file cabinets made into sorta security ones (assuming that you don't cut the sheet metal to get in) by a vertical bar through the drawer handles and into a welded ring at the bottom, and bent, flattened, slotted for a hasp, and secured with the S&G combination padlocks -- those had numbers up to 50 on the dials, and were setable like the built-in safe combination locks from the same company. Of course, a lot fewer combinations possible. 125,000 assuming that all possible numbers could be used. A mere 4,629 if any number within +/- 1 from the nominal number would work. These were normally used for FOUO (For Official Use Only), not really classified stuff. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#32
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
And does becoming a locksmith require an FBI background check to insure honorable-ity, or what? In TX they do. |
#33
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
Jon Elson wrote in
: Ro Grrr wrote: I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. Do you know if it is a 3-number combination or 5? If 3 numbers, I'd just try them all, it is probably a lot faster than trying to drill a good safe, even if you knew the exact spot. I don't know much at all about safes... but I do know a little bit about math. If there are (as has been suggested up-thread) 100 numbers on the dial, "try them all" is not practical, as there will be either 100*99*98 = 970200 possible combinations (if a number cannot be repeated) or 100^3 = 1 million (if it can). Assuming five seconds per try, with a standard 40-hour work week, the OP could expect to finish trying them all by the end of June. If there are only 45 numbers on the dial instead of 100, he might finish by the end of this month. |
#34
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 15:44:27 -0500, G. Morgan
wrote: Bob Engelhardt wrote: And does becoming a locksmith require an FBI background check to insure honorable-ity, or what? In TX they do. Ditto CA. My prints went on file when I took the Belsaw course. -- Energy and persistence alter all things. --Benjamin Franklin |
#35
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-10, Doug Miller wrote:
Jon Elson wrote in : Ro Grrr wrote: I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. Do you know if it is a 3-number combination or 5? If 3 numbers, I'd just try them all, it is probably a lot faster than trying to drill a good safe, even if you knew the exact spot. I don't know much at all about safes... but I do know a little bit about math. If there are (as has been suggested up-thread) 100 numbers on the dial, "try them all" is not practical, as there will be either 100*99*98 = 970200 possible combinations (if a number cannot be repeated) or 100^3 = 1 million (if it can). Assuming five seconds per try, with a standard 40-hour work week, the OP could expect to finish trying them all by the end of June. Five seconds per try is not practical. Four full turns (or more) to the left, stop on first number. Go past the second number to the right twice and stop on it the third time. Left again, past the third number once and stop on it the second time, then go right to zero (assuming normal dial position), turn the little turnbar in the center of the knob, rotate right to hook and withdraw the bolt, and then operate the lever to unlock the door/drawer. You can't go very fast on these or the inner discs will overshoot the numbers (and thus the proper stopping place) by inertia. (This on the S&G locks, the Mosler are both somewhat more tolerant of that, and have a low inertia dial, so you can't spin it freely -- it takes effort.) On either lock, you want a thumb ready to press on the OD of the dial to slow it to the target and then hold it there while you shift your grip. My own feeling is that it would be more like a minimum of 30 seconds, and likely 45 per try, which makes the time required grow rather rapidly. :-) If there are only 45 numbers on the dial instead of 100, he might finish by the end of this month. Multiply by at least six for the longer time to work the combination, so you are up to a half working year with the smaller number of combinations. BTW -- the same number can be used for the first and last entry, but should not be used for two immediately adjacent entries. And really, you want something like a separation of two or three. And the last entry should not be zero, because there is a permanent zero following that. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#36
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in
: On 2012-10-10, Doug Miller wrote: Jon Elson wrote in : Ro Grrr wrote: I'm getting a DIEBOLD FILE SAFE that is about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide, double doors. Its locked and there's no combination so I'm probably giong to have to drill the door to get into the combination lock. Do you know if it is a 3-number combination or 5? If 3 numbers, I'd just try them all, it is probably a lot faster than trying to drill a good safe, even if you knew the exact spot. I don't know much at all about safes... but I do know a little bit about math. If there are (as has been suggested up-thread) 100 numbers on the dial, "try them all" is not practical, as there will be either 100*99*98 = 970200 possible combinations (if a number cannot be repeated) or 100^3 = 1 million (if it can). Assuming five seconds per try, with a standard 40-hour work week, the OP could expect to finish trying them all by the end of June. Five seconds per try is not practical. I was just guessing. I believe I said that I don't know much about safes. :-) So I'll take your word for it. [...] My own feeling is that it would be more like a minimum of 30 seconds, and likely 45 per try, which makes the time required grow rather rapidly. :-) Let's take the lower number. That means instead of finishing around the end of June, he'll finish in mid-April -- of 2018. But even using my guess of 5 seconds, it's hardly practical. If there are only 45 numbers on the dial instead of 100, he might finish by the end of this month. Multiply by at least six for the longer time to work the combination, so you are up to a half working year with the smaller number of combinations. BTW -- the same number can be used for the first and last entry, but should not be used for two immediately adjacent entries. And really, you want something like a separation of two or three. And the last entry should not be zero, because there is a permanent zero following that. Thanks, DoN -- I learned a bit today. I hope the guy that suggested "try them all" did too. |
#37
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2012-10-10, Doug Miller wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in : On 2012-10-10, Doug Miller wrote: [ ... ] I don't know much at all about safes... but I do know a little bit about math. [ ... ] cannot be repeated) or 100^3 = 1 million (if it can). Assuming five seconds per try, with a standard 40-hour work week, the OP could expect to finish trying them all by the end of June. Five seconds per try is not practical. I was just guessing. I believe I said that I don't know much about safes. :-) So I'll take your word for it. I saw that -- so I decided to put in a bit of my own experience -- living with having to check (and sign off on) each safe at the end of each day, even if it was not opened. Since my flex-time hours tended towards the late end of the day, this was usually my task. (The "checking" involves trying to open it without dialing the combination, and when that fails, noting "Not Opened" across the "Opened" and "Closed" columns and noting the time the check was performed. (Of course, if the safe opens with the handle alone, and is not signed open and closed, you call the security people. :-) [...] My own feeling is that it would be more like a minimum of 30 seconds, and likely 45 per try, which makes the time required grow rather rapidly. :-) Let's take the lower number. That means instead of finishing around the end of June, he'll finish in mid-April -- of 2018. :-) But even using my guess of 5 seconds, it's hardly practical. Agreed. And those times are even assuming that no mistake is made in the dialing -- and I can say from experience that mistakes are easy, and you only know that you mis-dialed when the safe does not open while it did earlier in the day with the same combination. :-) Since the odds are great that you would never notice a mis-dialed try, you could have just skipped over the one combination which works. :-) Thanks, DoN -- I learned a bit today. Something which you hopefully will never need to use. :-) I hope the guy that suggested "try them all" did too. If not -- let *him* try them all. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#38
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
replying to Ro Grrr, Cracka Jack wrote:
Use a homemade thermic lance bro cost ;less than 30 bucks to make and will cut through freaking granite. You will get into that safe in less than 10 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA-VCaBUsCA -- posted from http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...fe-556070-.htm |
#39
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
replying to DoN. Nichols, Cracka Jack wrote:
Safe combinations are permutations not combinations, order matters :-) -- posted from http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...fe-556070-.htm |
#40
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Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE
On 2016-07-21, Cracka Jack wrote:
replying to DoN. Nichols, Cracka Jack wrote: Safe combinations are permutations not combinations, order matters :-) Of course it does. You did not quote anything of the original article, and it has been a long time, so I forget what I said back then. Just how old an article did you followup to in this and the previous one. I strongly doubt that the original poster of the question is still on the newsgroup. And using a thermic lance doesn't do much for preserving the contents -- which *might* be important papers. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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