Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
....
I have a collection of motor caps in my parts box. I randomly picked 6
and charged them to 100v. After 1-1/2 hours, 2 of them still had
significant charge: 1 97v & the other 99.

Then you shouldn't play with them till you learn how to do it
safely.

Do you think that I don't know how to do it safely? If so, why do you
think that?

Not all can capacitors are motor capacitors. ...

Obviously. I only used motor caps, as I said.

You didn't put a bleeder across them to make it a fair test, as well.

Putting a bleeder across them wouldn't have tested anything. The test
was to see if there were _internal_ bleeders. I.e., to see if when
removing a cap from a motor that it _might_ be charged.

Bob

On 8/8/2012 3:54 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

mike wrote:

On 8/8/2012 2:00 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

wrote in message ...
On 8/7/2012 1:52 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:




What are you doing here with a troll email address? STUPID!!!

Enlighten me.
What's a troll email address?



Any other questions ?

No, that covers it.

Yep, I got a question on how that applies to me and makes me STUPID!!!?


OK. First of all is the Gmail domain. Then 'spamme9' clinches it.
Hotmail is another huge source of trolls.

A lot of people filter out all traffic from those domains. Happy,
now?
Nope, not at all!
You're free to dislike my email provider.
You're even free to dislike my email address.
Filter all you want; that's your right.
You're not free to call me names because of my carefully considered
and highly effective choice of email address.

The answer to your question is, "I'm here because I enjoy
the topics discussed and SOME of the people."

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 18:07:43 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 11:44:59 -0700, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 12:37:40 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

(...)

If you want to measure winding resistance accurately, force about
an
Amp through it and measure the voltage drop. At 1A, 1 mV is one
milliOhm.

Yes. A Kelvin connection. It is very useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-terminal_sensing

My old Triplet 630 seems to work just fine for this and since the
"B"
cell only needs replacement about once every 30 years......

That's peachy for getting a 'ballpark' idea and probably quite
sufficient
for most motor servicing without the need of a Kelvin connection.

When you *do* need much better precision and accuracy, a Kelvin
connection with a good digital meter is hard to beat. In a previous
lifetime, I was able to estimate current flow in a very low
impedance
application by using a measured PCB trace as my current shunt.
'Worked a
treat.

--Winston

I have a nice calibrated lab milliOhm sitting in front of me. I doubt
a Triplett can show it's actually 0.6 microOhms over.

Braggart.

Well, I have coolth in the shop once again. I found a zero
capacitance in the cap (and infinite resistance), so I called around.
The local shops wanted $35 and $42 for the damned thing, so I called
my buddy. When I got there, he could only find 25uf cap, so I was out
of luck. He then told me where the local Grainger was in Medford, so
I went there. It had gone out of business over a year ago. When I got
to the chiropractor's office, there was an HVAC guy there. When he
asked the chiro if there was anything else he could supply, I gave it
a shot. Ayup, he had a 30/5uf cap for $15, so I bought it on the
spot.

I had a scare at first. I installed the cap, buttoned up the cabinet,
and came in the house to turn on the thermostat. Hmm, no relay click
and no condenser fan noise! What could it be? It was then that I
remembered that I hadn't plugged in the fuse block for the disconnect.
It worked fine after that, for some reason. Whew!

--
Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,
whereas I am merely in disguise.
-- Margaret Atwood

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I found a few wiring diagrams here;
http://www.brighthubengineering.com/...on-run-motors/

From the quick glance, it sure looks like if you disconnect the AC, that
there is motor windings across the cap.
....

You're right - the main winding is paralleled to the start cap & its
winding. I was tunnel-visioning on the start winding & didn't consider
the main winding. I shoulda drawn it. It will also discharge a run cap.

That does raise the question of why there are bleeder resistors on them,
as Micheal asserts. Maybe there are motors that don't use a centrifugal
switch, so that the start winding & its cap are not connected to
anything when the motor is stopped. A motor starter might have contacts
for the start winding and its own mechanism for disconnecting during run.

Bob

Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

Putting a bleeder across them wouldn't have tested anything. The test
was to see if there were _internal_ bleeders. I.e., to see if w

He doesn't get that, Bob. MT has gotten into the mode of assuming that
nobody but he knows anything about anything. And I don't get it, because
for a long time he contributed. Now he just nay-says anything anyone
writes.

I need him in my shop. I'm working on several complex machines with PLC
controls (mechanically complex, electronically complex, and also
programmatically so), and I lose concentration often when our summer
thunderstorms kick the front door open or shut.

I could use him as a doorstop.

LLoyd

"Snag" wrote in message ...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

I try not to think too much about why it doesn't work with the
digital meters, just that it's a pretty reliable test for figuring
out if the capacitpr is open or shorted, which is one of the reasons
I probably will always keep them around.


DVMs use a constant current to read resistance.

Another thing I like them for is checkomg motor windings for
continuity--many of the digital meters lack the required accuracy in
the low ranges and so they don't work well if you're trying to
differentiate between a dead short and say 4 ohms or so.


Lack accuracy on the low ranges. What a joke.

I said "many of them", you stupid ****.

And when you combine that with the fact that the readouts tend to bounce all over the goddamned place because of a pathetically low sampling rate instead of giving a reasonably steady reading....many of them ARE basically useless...

It has more
resolution that a cheap analog meter.

Yeah, especially the ones where the lowest possible range setting is X100

rolling eyes

They show you the poor contact
resistance, along with the resistance of the meter leads.

Both of which cause inaccurate readings, you psychotic whack-job....

Let's see you find a shorted turn with that antique Triplett.

Who in the **** said I was going to try and find "a shorted turn" with it, you dumb ass ?

Obviously, there's something about "trying to differentiate between a dead short and say 4 ohms or so" that you can't quite comprehend...

Heh , I use a cheap RS digital meter with a type K thermocouple to track
temps in my aluminum melts . Voltages are in the range of 20-30 millivolts

But I was talking about ohms readings...specifically, readings that are between a few ohms and zero.

... which my analog meter won't even twitch at .

--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Snag" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

I try not to think too much about why it doesn't work with the
digital meters, just that it's a pretty reliable test for figuring
out if the capacitpr is open or shorted, which is one of the
reasons I probably will always keep them around.


DVMs use a constant current to read resistance.

Another thing I like them for is checkomg motor windings for
continuity--many of the digital meters lack the required accuracy
in the low ranges and so they don't work well if you're trying to
differentiate between a dead short and say 4 ohms or so.


Lack accuracy on the low ranges. What a joke.

I said "many of them", you stupid ****.

And when you combine that with the fact that the readouts tend to
bounce all over the goddamned place because of a pathetically low
sampling rate instead of giving a reasonably steady reading....many
of them ARE basically useless...

It has more
resolution that a cheap analog meter.

Yeah, especially the ones where the lowest possible range setting is
X100

rolling eyes

They show you the poor contact
resistance, along with the resistance of the meter leads.

Both of which cause inaccurate readings, you psychotic whack-job....

Let's see you find a shorted turn with that antique Triplett.

Who in the **** said I was going to try and find "a shorted turn"
with it, you dumb ass ?

Obviously, there's something about "trying to differentiate between a
dead short and say 4 ohms or so" that you can't quite comprehend...

Heh , I use a cheap RS digital meter with a type K thermocouple to
track temps in my aluminum melts . Voltages are in the range of
20-30 millivolts

But I was talking about ohms readings...specifically, readings that
are between a few ohms and zero.

... which my analog meter won't even twitch at .


My , my , my , somebody **** in your Post Toasties ? FWIW that same cheapo
digital meter also reads ohms down to like .005 ... pretty damned good piece
of equipment considering what I paid , something like $12.99 IIRC .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70...
Bob Engelhardt fired this volley in
:

Putting a bleeder across them wouldn't have tested anything. The test
was to see if there were _internal_ bleeders. I.e., to see if w

He doesn't get that, Bob. MT has gotten into the mode of assuming that
nobody but he knows anything about anything. And I don't get it, because
for a long time he contributed. Now he just nay-says anything anyone
writes.

I need him in my shop. I'm working on several complex machines with PLC
controls (mechanically complex, electronically complex, and also
programmatically so), and I lose concentration often when our summer
thunderstorms kick the front door open or shut.

I could use him as a doorstop.



It's like he's always got a big hard on and just wants to nitpick, argue semantics, ridicule, initiate combative verbal exchanges and otherwise act as though everyone else in the world is a ****ing idiot as compared to him...

I keep him in my killfile mostly because it's not a productive use of my time to be spending it dealing with his childish antics but unfortunately, other people sometimes reply to his troll ass which basically gets him around my filters...

But, I suppose I could always just go ahead and killfile them, too...

Whadaya think I should do here, Lloyd ?

"Snag" wrote in message ...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Snag" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

I try not to think too much about why it doesn't work with the
digital meters, just that it's a pretty reliable test for figuring
out if the capacitpr is open or shorted, which is one of the
reasons I probably will always keep them around.


DVMs use a constant current to read resistance.

Another thing I like them for is checkomg motor windings for
continuity--many of the digital meters lack the required accuracy
in the low ranges and so they don't work well if you're trying to
differentiate between a dead short and say 4 ohms or so.


Lack accuracy on the low ranges. What a joke.

I said "many of them", you stupid ****.

And when you combine that with the fact that the readouts tend to
bounce all over the goddamned place because of a pathetically low
sampling rate instead of giving a reasonably steady reading....many
of them ARE basically useless...

It has more
resolution that a cheap analog meter.

Yeah, especially the ones where the lowest possible range setting is
X100

rolling eyes

They show you the poor contact
resistance, along with the resistance of the meter leads.

Both of which cause inaccurate readings, you psychotic whack-job....

Let's see you find a shorted turn with that antique Triplett.

Who in the **** said I was going to try and find "a shorted turn"
with it, you dumb ass ?

Obviously, there's something about "trying to differentiate between a
dead short and say 4 ohms or so" that you can't quite comprehend...

Heh , I use a cheap RS digital meter with a type K thermocouple to
track temps in my aluminum melts . Voltages are in the range of
20-30 millivolts

But I was talking about ohms readings...specifically, readings that
are between a few ohms and zero.

... which my analog meter won't even twitch at .


My , my , my , somebody **** in your Post Toasties ?

Naww, but I really wish that Terrell would see a doctor and get his meds checked...

FWIW that same cheapo
digital meter also reads ohms down to like .005 ... pretty damned good piece
of equipment considering what I paid , something like $12.99 IIRC .


Okay, maybe I'll try ONE more time....

FWIW: the harbor freight units don't hold up worth a **** if you run them over with a truck...something I've done several times, on purpose..

Where did you buy it at and what model number is it ?

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in news:
:

Whadaya think I should do here, Lloyd ?

I put up with it, because most of the folks he attacks have something
reasonable to ask to offer.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

o ask to offer.

to ask OR offer.
LS

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

I need him in my shop. I'm working on several complex machines with PLC
controls (mechanically complex, electronically complex, and also
programmatically so), and I lose concentration often when our summer
thunderstorms kick the front door open or shut.


Then fix the door, instead of complaining about it.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

Naww, but I really wish that Terrell would see a doctor and get his meds checked...


Which 'meds' would that be? The diabetes or blood pressure 'meds'?
You've been a flaming asshole from the first post I saw from you, and
you'll never change. You can dish out loads of crap, but can't take it.


Take your own advice, and see your doctor.

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:28:21 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

Well, I have coolth in the shop once again.

Good on ya, Larry.

--Winston

If you can find a motor with a run cap. Pull the power, remove the cap. Put
your ohm meter on the leads that formerly held the cap. I'm guessing you'll
read nearly zero ohms.

Enough people read this list, doesn't have to be Bob E, who tries this and
lets us know.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...

My comments have been more conceptual, my not being very familiar with
motor cap technology. I have never said that there weren't bleeders,
only that the motor could stop with a charge on the cap.

I have a collection of motor caps in my parts box. I randomly picked 6
and charged them to 100v. After 1-1/2 hours, 2 of them still had
significant charge: 1 97v & the other 99.

Bob

Is that legal? Can you agree with someone on usenet?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
From the quick glance, it sure looks like if you disconnect the AC, that
there is motor windings across the cap.
....

You're right - the main winding is paralleled to the start cap & its
winding. I was tunnel-visioning on the start winding & didn't consider
the main winding. I shoulda drawn it. It will also discharge a run cap.

Bob

On 9 Aug 2012 03:47:57 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:28:21 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

Well, I have coolth in the shop once again.

Good on ya, Larry.

I thought so. Man is not meant to live in/work in 98F.

--
We are always the same age inside.
-- Gertrude Stein

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Is that legal? Can you agree with someone on usenet?

Only if you haven't dug yourself into a hole by previously calling him a
moron or such G

On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 05:18:25 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 9 Aug 2012 03:47:57 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:28:21 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

Well, I have coolth in the shop once again.

Good on ya, Larry.

I thought so. Man is not meant to live in/work in 98F.

Until they invent 'negative relative humidity', yes.

--Winston-- But it's a *dry* scorch.

On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:33:08 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:45:54 -0500, Ignoramus25096
wrote:

On 2012-08-07, Larry Jaques wrote:

Felt the top of the condenser fan mount and found it very warm. OK,
it's 90 out, it'll be warm in the sun. I showered it with cool water
until it was cold.

Popped the bolts loose and the fan spins freely, no frozen bearings.
It has a 60Hz hum feel to it so I think it's being (somewhat)
energized. VOM confirms that below.

The condenser fan should be running whenever the contactor is pulled
in and calling for cold.

If the condenser fan quits, it should have kicked out the High
Pressure Safety on the output line from the Compressor to the start of
the Condenser Coils. And that safety is supposed to be a manual
reset.

Then again, it might just be low enough on refrigerant to stall the
compressor before it hits the 450 PSI threshold to trip the high side
safety.

Start relay has 24v from the thermostat and 119v through each
contactor and through the start cap to comp and fan. Looks normal so
far.

Then I heard a click and the compressor sounded like it labored for
just over a second before the second click happened. It was fairly
quiet.

That would be the compressor trying to start against high head
pressure, and then the Klixon overload cutting it off. It'll cool and
try to restart every two or three minutes.

First start with a good compressor and no condenser fan it'll load
down and stall as the pressures spike, and the Klixon cuts out.

Maybe the capacitor went bad.

Should I lick my fingers and...

No, read the instructions on your VOM or Digital Amp Clamp - a lot of
them have a Capacitor Test function.

-- Bruce --

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

And I don't get it, because for a long time he contributed.


I guess that you don't want to hear about the new Enco mill I was
told about on Thursday. It was ordered for a contract, and wasn't
delivered on time. The contract was canceled, and it's been sitting in
storage since then.

Another local machinist also has a lot of tooling for sale, now that
he's retired. I told him I'd help him put it on Ebay, rather than
bother you with it.

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

I guess that you don't want to hear about the new Enco mill I was
told about on Thursday. It was ordered for a contract, and wasn't
delivered on time. The contract was canceled, and it's been sitting in
storage since then.

Another local machinist also has a lot of tooling for sale, now that
he's retired. I told him I'd help him put it on Ebay, rather than
bother you with it.

Thanks for that. Next to angry, baseless attacks for no reason, I hate
spitefulness. Since you have a generous share of both, please keep them
and enjoy.

Lloyd

On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:28:14 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:33:08 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:45:54 -0500, Ignoramus25096
wrote:

On 2012-08-07, Larry Jaques wrote:

Felt the top of the condenser fan mount and found it very warm. OK,
it's 90 out, it'll be warm in the sun. I showered it with cool water
until it was cold.

Popped the bolts loose and the fan spins freely, no frozen bearings.
It has a 60Hz hum feel to it so I think it's being (somewhat)
energized. VOM confirms that below.

The condenser fan should be running whenever the contactor is pulled
in and calling for cold.

If the condenser fan quits, it should have kicked out the High
Pressure Safety on the output line from the Compressor to the start of
the Condenser Coils. And that safety is supposed to be a manual
reset.

Then again, it might just be low enough on refrigerant to stall the
compressor before it hits the 450 PSI threshold to trip the high side
safety.

Start relay has 24v from the thermostat and 119v through each
contactor and through the start cap to comp and fan. Looks normal so
far.

Then I heard a click and the compressor sounded like it labored for
just over a second before the second click happened. It was fairly
quiet.

That would be the compressor trying to start against high head
pressure, and then the Klixon overload cutting it off. It'll cool and
try to restart every two or three minutes.

First start with a good compressor and no condenser fan it'll load
down and stall as the pressures spike, and the Klixon cuts out.

Maybe the capacitor went bad.

Should I lick my fingers and...

No, read the instructions on your VOM or Digital Amp Clamp - a lot of
them have a Capacitor Test function.

I _was_ kidding, y'know. And my VOM had a capacitance checker
built-in which showed me no capacitance and infinite resistance.
I replaced the cap and she's been running fine for a couple days now.
"WHEW!" doesn't even begin to cover it.

--
We are always the same age inside.
-- Gertrude Stein

So, the capacitor was open to being replaced?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

No, read the instructions on your VOM or Digital Amp Clamp - a lot of
them have a Capacitor Test function.

I _was_ kidding, y'know. And my VOM had a capacitance checker
built-in which showed me no capacitance and infinite resistance.
I replaced the cap and she's been running fine for a couple days now.
"WHEW!" doesn't even begin to cover it.

--
We are always the same age inside.
-- Gertrude Stein

"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
news
So, the capacitor was open to being replaced?

Nah, it just lost it's capacity to care.

LLoyd

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:34:13 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley
in news
So, the capacitor was open to being replaced?

Nah, it just lost it's capacity to care.

That really resonates with me.

--Winston

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" fired this volley in
m:

I guess that you don't want to hear about the new Enco mill I was
told about on Thursday. It was ordered for a contract, and wasn't
delivered on time. The contract was canceled, and it's been sitting in
storage since then.

Another local machinist also has a lot of tooling for sale, now that
he's retired. I told him I'd help him put it on Ebay, rather than
bother you with it.

Thanks for that. Next to angry, baseless attacks for no reason, I hate
spitefulness. Since you have a generous share of both, please keep them
and enjoy.


You want to use a disabled man for a ****ing doorstop, then say I'm
spiteful? You need to seek mental health care before you start shooting
people, you hypocryte. At the very least, stop taking on jobs you can't
handle.

I have never posted a 'For sale' or a 'For auction' on this or any
group, and I never will. I have pointed people to places to find
things, or a list of a few items I have, when asked. I caught hell on
one group for posting a list of items that I was giving away, and was
cursed out for not paying the shipping on a free item.

I am not a spammer, especially for things I don't own. You whine
about not being able to concentrate on your work, and you have told me
there was nothing you needed in my area, so why the hell would you even
care? You've shown your true colors.

PLONK

On 10 Aug 2012 15:41:21 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:34:13 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley
in news
So, the capacitor was open to being replaced?

Nah, it just lost it's capacity to care.

That really resonates with me.

Or it lost the "Battle Of The Bulge." When it looks like an aluminum
balloon it's all over, and you don't even need the meter...

-- Bruce --

At its heart, it was incapcaitated?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
news
So, the capacitor was open to being replaced?

Nah, it just lost it's capacity to care.

LLoyd

I do that with frequency, if the wave is the right length.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Winston" wrote in message
...
So, the capacitor was open to being replaced?

Nah, it just lost it's capacity to care.

That really resonates with me.

--Winston

Larry Jaques wrote:

..

I _was_ kidding, y'know. And my VOM had a capacitance checker
built-in which showed me no capacitance and infinite resistance.
I replaced the cap and she's been running fine for a couple days now.
"WHEW!" doesn't even begin to cover it.
Well, I guess they don't make these caps as well as they used to.
I still have a 36-year old one on one of our units, and the other blew
at an age of about 32 years. No question about that one, when it blew, (it
was the compressor run cap), you could smell it from 30 feet away.

Jon

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:23:14 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

.

I _was_ kidding, y'know. And my VOM had a capacitance checker
built-in which showed me no capacitance and infinite resistance.
I replaced the cap and she's been running fine for a couple days now.
"WHEW!" doesn't even begin to cover it.
Well, I guess they don't make these caps as well as they used to.
I still have a 36-year old one on one of our units, and the other blew
at an age of about 32 years. No question about that one, when it blew, (it
was the compressor run cap), you could smell it from 30 feet away.

I got lucky. It lost maybe 1/10 of an ounce of oil, if that. I'm
just glad it didn't fry the compressor and cost me a grand to replace.

--
We are always the same age inside.
-- Gertrude Stein