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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump. Use the resulting distilled
water for plants or to fill your car battery or any
non-critical application like that.

A small microcomputer can determine the level in the
tray and cycle the pump at the proper times.
http://www.microchip.com

A second tube near the top of your secondary reservoir
automatically drains the excess back into the drip pan
so it can be vaporized.

Warm or cool, the dryer air will make your house more
comfortable, less likely to support mold or mildew.

The free distilled water will save money, too.

--Winston --Pays for itself 1000x faster than PV cells!
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On 6/21/2012 9:52 PM, Winston wrote:
Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump. Use the resulting distilled
water for plants or to fill your car battery or any
non-critical application like that.

A small microcomputer can determine the level in the
tray and cycle the pump at the proper times.
http://www.microchip.com

A second tube near the top of your secondary reservoir
automatically drains the excess back into the drip pan
so it can be vaporized.

Warm or cool, the dryer air will make your house more
comfortable, less likely to support mold or mildew.

The free distilled water will save money, too.

--Winston--Pays for itself 1000x faster than PV cells!


I'm interested.
Just how does this work?
You gonna leave the door open?
Please show your work. I'd like to see the thermodynamics
math that says this is a good idea.
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"Winston" wrote in message
...
Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump. Use the resulting distilled
water for plants or to fill your car battery or any
non-critical application like that.

--Winston --Pays for itself 1000x faster than PV cells!


I bought the small thermoelectric dehumidifier from Home Depot to dry
the bathroom after a shower and protect the machine tools in the
basement from rusting, when the outside air is as humid as it is now;
96% and 70F at 6AM with midday highs around 100F.
http://tinyurl.com/cbd3qtw

It costs 0.5 KWH a day to run according to the KAWez. For me that's
$0.07. Today will be its first serious capacity test. So far it's
collected about 50mL of water in half an hour.

jsw


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"mike" wrote in message
...
On 6/21/2012 9:52 PM, Winston wrote:
Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
...


I'm interested.
Just how does this work?
You gonna leave the door open?
Please show your work. I'd like to see the thermodynamics
math that says this is a good idea.


It's a waste of energy if the water freezes on the evaporator coils
and needs trough heater electricity to defrost. It might work if you
disassemble the freezer compartment and blow enough air on the
evaporator with a fan to keep the temperature above freezing.

Still it doesn't match a window A/C unit that dumps the condensor's
heat outdoors.

jsw


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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump.

CY: I presume you scrubbed the drip pan and sterilized it? Most drip pans
are very dirty, and grow mold and such.

Use the resulting distilled
water for plants or to fill your car battery or any
non-critical application like that.

CY: With the mold and growth, I don't think it would be very suitable.

A small microcomputer can determine the level in the
tray and cycle the pump at the proper times.
http://www.microchip.com

CY: Does that cost more than the jug of distilled that I use, each couple of
years? What's the delivery rate? Couple ounces a day?



A second tube near the top of your secondary reservoir
automatically drains the excess back into the drip pan
so it can be vaporized.

CY: What about dehumidifying? So, you're advertising dehumidify, and you
revaporize water?

Warm or cool, the dryer air will make your house more
comfortable, less likely to support mold or mildew.

CY: Except that most of the water is revaporized.

The free distilled water will save money, too.

CY: How much distilled do you use? You do realize that refrigerator water
can contain dust, and mold, and a lot of other junk? I think that the idea
is ill advised, and far too complicated.

--Winston --Pays for itself 1000x faster than PV cells!

CY: Well, my distilled water bill is about two dollars a year. How many
years, at two dollars a year, will that be? And, does your gadget use
electricity? If so, sounds like a loser.




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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

I modified my window AC in the living room. The condensate now runs out a
drain, through a PVC tube, and onto the ground. Instead of slinger ring and
making the condensor coil attract dust.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

I bought the small thermoelectric dehumidifier from Home Depot to dry
the bathroom after a shower and protect the machine tools in the
basement from rusting, when the outside air is as humid as it is now;
96% and 70F at 6AM with midday highs around 100F.
http://tinyurl.com/cbd3qtw

It costs 0.5 KWH a day to run according to the KAWez. For me that's
$0.07. Today will be its first serious capacity test. So far it's
collected about 50mL of water in half an hour.

jsw




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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

I noticed the pumps and price of gadgets would be far more than the two
dollars a year of distilled water that I saved. But, I'd forgotten the
defrost heater. Good catch.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

It's a waste of energy if the water freezes on the evaporator coils
and needs trough heater electricity to defrost. It might work if you
disassemble the freezer compartment and blow enough air on the
evaporator with a fan to keep the temperature above freezing.

Still it doesn't match a window A/C unit that dumps the condensor's
heat outdoors.

jsw




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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

On Jun 22, 6:40*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
"Winston" wrote in message

...
Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump.


I don't have water at my shop, because I'm cheap and I don't need much
water. But I do have a small window unit, and a barrel under the
condensate drip hole. Right now I have about 20 gallons in the barrel.
It will do until I get the rainwater catchment system finished. then
i can clean the shop floor
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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 07:01:56 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"mike" wrote in message
...
On 6/21/2012 9:52 PM, Winston wrote:
Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
...


I'm interested.
Just how does this work?


Refrigerators work by moving heat from a couple of insulated
compartments to the outside environment. As the air in these
compartments falls in temperature, it passes it's 'dew point'
which is the local temperature at which the water vapor in the air
separates from it or 'condenses' on to the metal parts of the
refrigerator that are responsible for removing the heat (the 'evaporator'
and associated brackets).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rigeration.png

This leaves the air in the compartments much dryer but poses an
inconvenience as the compartments are opened and closed every day.
That is, the water or 'condensate' forms ice and frost on the surfaces of
the evaporator (and associated metal parts). Eventually, the insulating
properties of the 'frost' causes the efficiency of the refrigerator to
decrease.

At that point, the frost and ice should be removed to re-establish
efficient function. We call this process 'defrosting'.

We don't defrost manually any more. Modern refrigerators and
freezers automatically shut down the compressor and heat the evaporator
every 8-12 hours for 20 to 40 minutes to melt the frost and ice to its
liquid form, a kind of distilled water called 'condensate', which is
allowed to collect in a shallow tray called a 'drip pan'.

As part of the defrosting process, a fan near the drip pan mixes ambient
air with this liquid and causes the condensate to 'vaporize' or mix again
with the air near the refrigerator in a cycle that continues as long as
the refrigerator functions.

You gonna leave the door open?


No.

Please show your work. I'd like to see the thermodynamics math that
says this is a good idea.


I wouldn't understand the math but this is a good idea because the
refrigerator can produce several ounces * of condensate an average of
three times a day anyway. Better to use this water and benefit from
somewhat dryer air than allow it to continue it's wasteful cycle, yes?

It's a waste of energy if the water freezes on the evaporator coils and
needs trough heater electricity to defrost.


I agree, but that's how refrigerators work. Honestly, I would much
rather the power company defrost my refrigerator than go back to
the days of manual defrosting, though.

It might work if you
disassemble the freezer compartment and blow enough air on the
evaporator with a fan to keep the temperature above freezing.


It works anyway. Very little modification is necessary to take
advantage of this "dehumidifier".

Still it doesn't match a window A/C unit that dumps the condensor's heat
outdoors.


I didn't say it did. It *will* allow the user to save some amount of
energy going to the window A/C unit because the dryer air will be
perceived as cooler to the user. On milder days, some users would
not even feel the need to turn on their A/C.

--Winston

--

* I *love* the word 'ounce'.
It is universally useful and can indicate volume, force, thickness,
density or practically anything else (including a kind or Roman coin or a
snow leopard).
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
. ..
I modified my window AC in the living room. The condensate now runs
out a
drain, through a PVC tube, and onto the ground. Instead of slinger
ring and
making the condensor coil attract dust.

Christopher A. Young


I did that to a 1970's A/C that's too heavy to safely carry outside to
hose out every few years. It had developed a musty smell and no longer
cooled very well and my father gifted me with it. I stripped it naked
in the driveway for a good soapy shower that cured everything, then
drilled a drain hole in the baseplate beside the condenser so I
wouldn't have to repeat it.

I built a snug-fitting removeable shelf for the window that supports
the A/C from the window sill, rather than the weak aluminum storm
window frame. The shelf is level and the bar under the A/C tilts it
enough to run the condensate water to the outside.

The next A/C I inherited is light enough to carry so I didn't add the
drain. The slinger spreads water on the condenser coil to cool it more
efficiently.

jsw




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"Rex" wrote
-I don't have water at my shop, because I'm cheap and I don't need
much
-water. But I do have a small window unit, and a barrel under the
-condensate drip hole. Right now I have about 20 gallons in the
barrel.
-It will do until I get the rainwater catchment system finished. then
-i can clean the shop floor

Landscape fabric makes a good, durable filter across the top of the
rain barrel. I put tarp clips in the corners to hang it up to hose off
the pollen and other roof and gutter crud. It didn't pass water until
I sprayed some soap on it.

A section of flex downspout directs the water out onto the cloth, and
is easily moved out of the way to clean the filter or pump out water.
In the winter I can remove the barrels and redirect the flex spout
downwards.

jsw


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"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 07:01:56 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

...

...Very little modification is necessary to take
advantage of this "dehumidifier".

Still it doesn't match a window A/C unit that dumps the condensor's
heat
outdoors.


I didn't say it did. It *will* allow the user to save some amount
of
energy going to the window A/C unit because the dryer air will be
perceived as cooler to the user. On milder days, some users would
not even feel the need to turn on their A/C.

--Winston


Air conditioners remove humidity very well too, that's the condensate
that drips from the outside (if they tilt that way). Their plumbing is
sized to keep the evaporator (cooling coils) above freezing which
greatly improves efficiency; freezing water takes a LOT of energy that
you don't get back if the defrost heater melts the ice. Refrigerators
have to give up some efficiency to keep the freezer compartment
frozen.

Yes, a spare refrigerator will dehumidify, but it also heats the
indoor air, so you don't gain much comfort. Better than nothing,
maybe.

I've fixed a few old apartment fridges that had door gasket leaks that
let in more humid air that the evaporator design could tolerate, and
ice built up until it jammed, stalled and burned out the fan.

jsw


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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

"Jim Wilkins" on Fri, 22 Jun 2012 11:02:04
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Landscape fabric makes a good, durable filter across the top of the
rain barrel. I put tarp clips in the corners to hang it up to hose off
the pollen and other roof and gutter crud. It didn't pass water until
I sprayed some soap on it.


Cool.

A section of flex downspout directs the water out onto the cloth, and
is easily moved out of the way to clean the filter or pump out water.
In the winter I can remove the barrels and redirect the flex spout
downwards.

jsw

--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.
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Default Calling All Inventors. Fridge as dehumidifier.

On 6/22/2012 7:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

CY: Well, my distilled water bill is about two dollars a year. How many
years, at two dollars a year, will that be? And, does your gadget use
electricity? If so, sounds like a loser.



I use a 1500Watt electric still as a space heater in my shop. I get
the distilled water as a byproduct.

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On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 11:30:01 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 07:01:56 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

...

...Very little modification is necessary to take advantage of this
"dehumidifier".

Still it doesn't match a window A/C unit that dumps the condensor's
heat
outdoors.


I didn't say it did. It *will* allow the user to save some amount of
energy going to the window A/C unit because the dryer air will be
perceived as cooler to the user. On milder days, some users would not
even feel the need to turn on their A/C.

--Winston


Air conditioners remove humidity very well too, that's the condensate
that drips from the outside (if they tilt that way).


Yup.

Their plumbing is
sized to keep the evaporator (cooling coils) above freezing which
greatly improves efficiency; freezing water takes a LOT of energy that
you don't get back if the defrost heater melts the ice. Refrigerators
have to give up some efficiency to keep the freezer compartment frozen.


Air conditioners are likewise inefficient.

Yes, a spare refrigerator will dehumidify, but it also heats the indoor
air, so you don't gain much comfort.


A spare refrigerator? No, I'm saying that the *only* refrigerator in
the house condenses some amount of moisture out of the air as a
function of doing it's job. The pity is that we allow the fridge
to push that moisture back into the ambient as water vapor.
My point is that we can leave the condensate as deionized water and
use it for non-critical applications rather than allow the fridge
to humidify the house with it, as is the present case.

There will be no significant heat added to the house envelope as
a function of re-purposing the condensate.

Better than nothing, maybe.


Indeed. A lot. For almost No Money.

I've fixed a few old apartment fridges that had door gasket leaks that
let in more humid air that the evaporator design could tolerate, and ice
built up until it jammed, stalled and burned out the fan.


Yup. It happens.

--Winston



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On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:39:46 -0700, Rex wrote:

On Jun 22, 6:40Â*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
"Winston" wrote in message

... Use your refrigerator to dry the
air in your house. Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump.


I don't have water at my shop, because I'm cheap and I don't need much
water. But I do have a small window unit, and a barrel under the
condensate drip hole. Right now I have about 20 gallons in the barrel.


Holy Cow! How long have you been collecting that water?

It will do until I get the rainwater catchment system finished. then i
can clean the shop floor


Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as a
hoop to secure the fabric.

http://i21.geccdn.net/site/images/n-...p/30038291.jpg

--Winston

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On 22 Jun 2012 20:26:32 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:39:46 -0700, Rex wrote:

On Jun 22, 6:40*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
"Winston" wrote in message

... Use your refrigerator to dry the
air in your house. Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump.


I don't have water at my shop, because I'm cheap and I don't need much
water. But I do have a small window unit, and a barrel under the
condensate drip hole. Right now I have about 20 gallons in the barrel.


Holy Cow! How long have you been collecting that water?

It will do until I get the rainwater catchment system finished. then i
can clean the shop floor


Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as a
hoop to secure the fabric.

http://i21.geccdn.net/site/images/n-...p/30038291.jpg


The hoop, not the lid. And you could fab one from some spare water
heater holddown strapping.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
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"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
A spare refrigerator? No, I'm saying that the *only* refrigerator
in
the house condenses some amount of moisture out of the air as a
function of doing it's job. The pity is that we allow the fridge
to push that moisture back into the ambient as water vapor.
My point is that we can leave the condensate as deionized water and
use it for non-critical applications rather than allow the fridge
to humidify the house with it, as is the present case.


Good idea, if you can reroute the drain tube out and around the side
so you can reach its reservoir. AFAIK they run straight down inside
the back wall and the condensor coil prevents you from cutting an
access hatch.

I run a little 100W dorm room sized unit that needs occasional
defrosting.

jsw


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"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as
a
hoop to secure the fabric.

--Winston


Mine are plastic with screw-on lid rings that fit too snugly. Rope
works fine.

jsw


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On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:14:30 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 22 Jun 2012 20:26:32 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:39:46 -0700, Rex wrote:

On Jun 22, 6:40Â*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
"Winston" wrote in message

... Use your refrigerator to dry
the air in your house. Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a
small positive-displacement pump.

I don't have water at my shop, because I'm cheap and I don't need much
water. But I do have a small window unit, and a barrel under the
condensate drip hole. Right now I have about 20 gallons in the barrel.


Holy Cow! How long have you been collecting that water?

It will do until I get the rainwater catchment system finished. then
i can clean the shop floor


Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as a
hoop to secure the fabric.

http://i21.geccdn.net/site/images/n-...p/30038291.jpg


The hoop, not the lid.


Well, yes the hoop part that normally holds the lid to the barrel.

And you could fab one from some spare water
heater holddown strapping.


Methinks that'd be of insufficient diameter for a 55 gallon
barrel, unless one could get a hold-down strap made for a
larger diameter water heater than I am accustomed to.
The good news is that I could roll some mild strap into
the same shape and clamp it in place with a bolt.

This cat can be skinned in many different ways, I suspect.

--Winston



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On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:47:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
A spare refrigerator? No, I'm saying that the *only* refrigerator in
the house condenses some amount of moisture out of the air as a
function of doing it's job. The pity is that we allow the fridge to
push that moisture back into the ambient as water vapor. My point is
that we can leave the condensate as deionized water and use it for
non-critical applications rather than allow the fridge to humidify the
house with it, as is the present case.


Good idea, if you can reroute the drain tube out and around the side so
you can reach its reservoir. AFAIK they run straight down inside the
back wall and the condensor coil prevents you from cutting an access
hatch.


They're a few different designs, ranging from a convenient tray that
just slides out the front, to systems that require rocket surgery to
modify. My present fridge has an access panel on the lower back
which has razor-sharp edges, for some reason. AMHIKT.

If one carefully rotates this panel out of the way, one is treated to
the view of a fairly accessible drip tray, under an open fan very near
floor level, next to the compressor. It'd be possible to connect
a little float switch and pickup tube so that water could be pulled
out of there before the fan could vaporize much of it IMHO.

Alternatively, I envision a little plastic dingus shaped like a
pitcher plant flower that would catch the condensate before it hits the
pan. It'd overflow into the pan if it was not pumped dry in time.
One could put it on the arm of a microswitch to signal when it was
time to start and stop the necessary pump.

I run a little 100W dorm room sized unit that needs occasional
defrosting.


Yup. When I use mine, it is difficult to resist the urge to smack
the little ice sheets off the bottom and sides of the evaporator.



--Winston
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On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:52:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as a
hoop to secure the fabric.

--Winston


Mine are plastic with screw-on lid rings that fit too snugly. Rope works
fine.


Double knot? Trucker's hitch?

--Winston
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On 6/22/2012 3:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
Use your refrigerator to dry the air in your house.
Pull the condensate out of the drip pan with a small
positive-displacement pump. Use the resulting distilled
water for plants or to fill your car battery or any
non-critical application like that.

--Winston--Pays for itself 1000x faster than PV cells!


I bought the small thermoelectric dehumidifier from Home Depot to dry
the bathroom after a shower and protect the machine tools in the
basement from rusting, when the outside air is as humid as it is now;
96% and 70F at 6AM with midday highs around 100F.
http://tinyurl.com/cbd3qtw

It costs 0.5 KWH a day to run according to the KAWez. For me that's
$0.07. Today will be its first serious capacity test. So far it's
collected about 50mL of water in half an hour.

jsw


I looked into building one of these. I'd be interested in seeing your math.
I used your numbers and the ones from the link and rounded them to
fewer digits.
I get all balled up in grains and pounds and slugs, so my math might
not be right. Maybe someone with facility could chime in.

I didn't know your shower + basement volume, so I assumed 1000 square
feet x 8 = 8000 cu ft.
IF you have 8000 cubic feet at 70F and ~100% humidity, there's 1.3 gallons
of water in the air. At the rated capacity of 1/2 pt/day,
the device could keep up with a moist air infiltration rate of 0.3CFM.

These things are always spec'd at optimum. You have to precisely control
the air flow. You want the cold side to be very near the dewpoint.
Any lower is very wasteful.
And this is at 100%. At lower humidity, the dewpoint goes down relative
to air temp. At some point, you can't keep the hot side cool enough
to get the cold side to the dewpoint. Above 30F differential, things
go to hell really fast.

The good news is that yours seems to be putting out about 10X the
specified 1/2 pt/day.
How does that compare with your numbers?
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"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:47:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

Alternatively, I envision a little plastic dingus shaped like a
pitcher plant flower that would catch the condensate before it hits
the
pan. It'd overflow into the pan if it was not pumped dry in time.
One could put it on the arm of a microswitch to signal when it was
time to start and stop the necessary pump.


The thermoelectric dehumidifier from Home Depot uses a float and a
microswitch to shut off the cooler and light a LED when it's full.
Another microswitch keeps it off when the container is out. It's an
elegantly simple and effective design.

It has collected 220 mL of water in the last 24 hours, at 80%
humidity. I added the volume scale. If I can find a non-destructive
way to do it I'll add a temperature sensor to the cold side to see if
it can serve as a dew point indicator.

These thermocouple panel jacks are simple to install and replace
dangling, damage-prone pigtails:
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=MPJ&Nav=temg11

I run a little 100W dorm room sized unit that needs occasional
defrosting.


Yup. When I use mine, it is difficult to resist the urge to smack
the little ice sheets off the bottom and sides of the evaporator.
--Winston


I've pushed energy savings to the edge of inconvenience, though some
of it becomes easier with habit, such as planning meals and shopping
trips a few days in advance.

jsw


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On 23 Jun 2012 04:13:55 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:52:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as a
hoop to secure the fabric.

--Winston


Mine are plastic with screw-on lid rings that fit too snugly. Rope works
fine.


Double knot? Trucker's hitch?


Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned, stinky, rubber bungee cords?

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln


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"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:52:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Mine are plastic with screw-on lid rings that fit too snugly. Rope
works
fine.


Double knot? Trucker's hitch?
--Winston


Bow knot, like shoelaces.
http://www.troop7.org/Knots/Bow.html

When the rope is wet and slippery I add the surgeon's variation of an
extra turn to hold the rope tight around the barrel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon's_knot

jsw


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"mike" wrote in message
...
On 6/22/2012 3:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

I looked into building one of these.


It's condensed 250mL in 25 hours so far, pretty close to the loose
spec of half a pint a day. The reservoir doesn't drain completely so
that initial 50mL included some unknown zero error.

I'm happy if it can keep humidity at or below 80% where the bare steel
of my machine tools doesn't rust. It's no match for a window A/C or
Freon dehumidifier but it's cheaper and very portable, and another toy
to play with. I've used thermoelectric coolers on MOPA laser diodes.

Bare Peltier modules aren't cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/Peltier-Thermo.../dp/B000TA58FI
I bought the $40 HD unit after seeing a module with heatsinks in the
surplus store for $25, and figuring how much sheetmetal work it would
take to enclose and mount it.

They claim it's effective to 1100 cubic feet. My bathroom is less than
half that big, but contains liquid water I can't completely sponge off
the walls and curtain after a shower. I'd say it meets its restricted
performance claims.
"For use in spaces such as wardrobes, closets, kitchen cabinets,
storage rooms, baby rooms, etc "

jsw


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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned, stinky, rubber bungee
cords?


Stretching them pulls the cloth out of place. After laying it over the
barrel I push the center down so water doesn't run off when the cloth
begins to clog with debris. Originally I had used scrap bedsheet
pieces on 1/4" metal screen, weighted with rocks. It worked, but this
is better.

The filter keeps out mosquito larvae and debris that would clog the
bilge pump. The water still looks like it came from the Black Lagoon.

jsw


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On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 05:11:37 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 23 Jun 2012 04:13:55 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:52:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as
a hoop to secure the fabric.

--Winston

Mine are plastic with screw-on lid rings that fit too snugly. Rope
works fine.


Double knot? Trucker's hitch?


Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned, stinky, rubber bungee cords?


I vaguely remember a section of a *real* hardware store
that had the elastic cord and ends for sale. One could
assemble any length bungee. Same was true for web straps.

They had 100 piece boxes of hardware too.

Sigh.

--Winston
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:21:43 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:52:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Mine are plastic with screw-on lid rings that fit too snugly. Rope
works
fine.


Double knot? Trucker's hitch?
--Winston


Bow knot, like shoelaces.
http://www.troop7.org/Knots/Bow.html

When the rope is wet and slippery I add the surgeon's variation of an
extra turn to hold the rope tight around the barrel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon's_knot


Funny how the mind works.
I use that bow knot twice a day and never thought to
apply it to anything else. Someday I will discover
a secure version; then I will only have to use it
once a day.

--Winston


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On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:13:01 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:47:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote: ...

Alternatively, I envision a little plastic dingus shaped like a pitcher
plant flower that would catch the condensate before it hits the
pan. It'd overflow into the pan if it was not pumped dry in time. One
could put it on the arm of a microswitch to signal when it was time to
start and stop the necessary pump.


The thermoelectric dehumidifier from Home Depot uses a float and a
microswitch to shut off the cooler and light a LED when it's full.
Another microswitch keeps it off when the container is out. It's an
elegantly simple and effective design.

It has collected 220 mL of water in the last 24 hours, at 80% humidity.
I added the volume scale. If I can find a non-destructive way to do it
I'll add a temperature sensor to the cold side to see if it can serve as
a dew point indicator.

These thermocouple panel jacks are simple to install and replace
dangling, damage-prone pigtails:
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=MPJ&Nav=temg11

I run a little 100W dorm room sized unit that needs occasional
defrosting.


Yup. When I use mine, it is difficult to resist the urge to smack the
little ice sheets off the bottom and sides of the evaporator.
--Winston


I've pushed energy savings to the edge of inconvenience, though some of
it becomes easier with habit, such as planning meals and shopping trips
a few days in advance.


"Planning" you say? I shall have to try that someday.

I adjusted my water heater thermostat down by 7 degrees a few months ago
and started watching my natural gas consumption numbers.

Initially I saw a 0.6 therm daily year-over-year decrease, then a 0.4
therm daily YoY decrease, then a 0.1 therm daily YoY *increase* and last
month, the power company said I used as much gas as I did long *before* I
turned down the water heater thermostat.

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

--Winston -- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.
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Winston fired this volley in
:


I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/



Winston, you're a mook.

You don't perceive how oddball, eccentric, and totally IMPRACTICAL your
waste-of-energy refrigerator-dehumidifier is. You're like the Walter
Minto of energy conservation!

Now, you don't perceive how mineral build-up in a water heater - or minor
leaks in the plumbing - can affect efficiency. Just a _drip_ from a hot
water faucet can affect your daily use. ("I wonder where all that extra
gas is going?")

Please pay attention to basic principles. If it costs more energy than
it saves, it is NOT an economy. If you don't pay attention to the
intended designs of machines by maintaining them, they become less
efficient.

GEESH!

Lloyd
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"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:13:01 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:47:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote: ...

Alternatively, I envision a little plastic dingus shaped like a
pitcher
plant flower that would catch the condensate before it hits the
pan. It'd overflow into the pan if it was not pumped dry in time.
One
could put it on the arm of a microswitch to signal when it was
time to
start and stop the necessary pump.


The thermoelectric dehumidifier from Home Depot uses a float and a
microswitch to shut off the cooler and light a LED when it's full.
Another microswitch keeps it off when the container is out. It's an
elegantly simple and effective design.

It has collected 220 mL of water in the last 24 hours, at 80%
humidity.
I added the volume scale. If I can find a non-destructive way to do
it
I'll add a temperature sensor to the cold side to see if it can
serve as
a dew point indicator.

These thermocouple panel jacks are simple to install and replace
dangling, damage-prone pigtails:
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=MPJ&Nav=temg11

I run a little 100W dorm room sized unit that needs occasional
defrosting.

Yup. When I use mine, it is difficult to resist the urge to smack
the
little ice sheets off the bottom and sides of the evaporator.
--Winston


I've pushed energy savings to the edge of inconvenience, though
some of
it becomes easier with habit, such as planning meals and shopping
trips
a few days in advance.


"Planning" you say? I shall have to try that someday.

I adjusted my water heater thermostat down by 7 degrees a few months
ago
and started watching my natural gas consumption numbers.

Initially I saw a 0.6 therm daily year-over-year decrease, then a
0.4
therm daily YoY decrease, then a 0.1 therm daily YoY *increase* and
last
month, the power company said I used as much gas as I did long
*before* I
turned down the water heater thermostat.

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

--Winston -- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.


The tank, flue or insulation are deteriorating???

jsw


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"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:21:43 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Funny how the mind works.
I use that bow knot twice a day and never thought to
apply it to anything else. Someday I will discover
a secure version; then I will only have to use it
once a day.
--Winston


Tie a third layer of the knot with the loops.

In a classic psych experiment (that I didn't find with Google, so this
is from remote memory) the students are tasked to empty a cistern of
dirty water. On a table visible to them is a clean pitcher of water
and some drinking glasses, but otherwise they have no utensils.
Typically they use their hands instead of dirtying the glassware. When
asked why not afterwards they don't have good answers, it just wasn't
"right".

jsw


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On 6/23/2012 1:16 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:13:01 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:47:29 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote: ...

Alternatively, I envision a little plastic dingus shaped like a pitcher
plant flower that would catch the condensate before it hits the
pan. It'd overflow into the pan if it was not pumped dry in time. One
could put it on the arm of a microswitch to signal when it was time to
start and stop the necessary pump.


The thermoelectric dehumidifier from Home Depot uses a float and a
microswitch to shut off the cooler and light a LED when it's full.
Another microswitch keeps it off when the container is out. It's an
elegantly simple and effective design.

It has collected 220 mL of water in the last 24 hours, at 80% humidity.
I added the volume scale. If I can find a non-destructive way to do it
I'll add a temperature sensor to the cold side to see if it can serve as
a dew point indicator.


That's not gonna be very accurate.
The peltier is a pump. For a given input temp, output temp
and power applied, you're gonna get a fixed amount of BTU transferred.
Part of that is sensible heat, part latent heat. It's all affected by
air flow, humidity, surface effects, ambient temp and probably other stuff.

These thermocouple panel jacks are simple to install and replace
dangling, damage-prone pigtails:
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=MPJ&Nav=temg11

I run a little 100W dorm room sized unit that needs occasional
defrosting.

Yup. When I use mine, it is difficult to resist the urge to smack the
little ice sheets off the bottom and sides of the evaporator.
--Winston


I've pushed energy savings to the edge of inconvenience, though some of
it becomes easier with habit, such as planning meals and shopping trips
a few days in advance.


"Planning" you say? I shall have to try that someday.

I adjusted my water heater thermostat down by 7 degrees a few months ago
and started watching my natural gas consumption numbers.

Initially I saw a 0.6 therm daily year-over-year decrease, then a 0.4
therm daily YoY decrease, then a 0.1 therm daily YoY *increase* and last
month, the power company said I used as much gas as I did long *before* I
turned down the water heater thermostat.

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/


It's a combination of thermodynamics and placebo effect.
I found my energy usage went down for whatever I was measuring.

Temperature affects two types of loss.
System losses thru the pipes and heater are proportional to temperature.
Your clothes washer probably works on weight, so there's proportional
savings there.
But when you shower, you turn the knob to the temperature you want
and use more of that lower-temperature hot water.

--Winston-- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.




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"mike" wrote in message
...
On 6/23/2012 1:16 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:13:01 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

...If I can find a non-destructive way to do it
I'll add a temperature sensor to the cold side to see if it can
serve as
a dew point indicator.


That's not gonna be very accurate.
The peltier is a pump. For a given input temp, output temp
and power applied, you're gonna get a fixed amount of BTU
transferred.
Part of that is sensible heat, part latent heat. It's all affected
by
air flow, humidity, surface effects, ambient temp and probably other
stuff.


First I'll have to determine if the Peltier has enough excess cooling
power to further chill the liquid water after condensing it from
vapor. It might stabilize at or slightly below the dewpoint.

If not I could have an Arduino ramp it up and down and look for the
flat on the cooling slope, or reduce DC power until it does stabilize
at the dew point, which I can measure independently with a lab-quality
psychrometer.

jsw


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On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:04:48 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Winston fired this volley in
:


I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/



Winston, you're a mook.


"a foolish, insignificant, or contemptible person" ?

Sorry Lloyd? All three at once? Was it something I said?

You don't perceive how oddball, eccentric, and totally IMPRACTICAL your
waste-of-energy refrigerator-dehumidifier is.


I accept oddball and eccentric but 'impractical' and 'waste-of-energy'
I disagree with. Please tell me why you feel the idea is either
impractical or a waste of energy?

You're like the Walter Minto of energy conservation!


Walter Minto (1753 €“ 1796)

"Minto constantly fought for the cause of improving Americas colleges
and improving America intellectually. He encouraged everyone to further
their education."

"Walter Minto was a great mathematician, astronomer, educator, and
patriot. With a meager salary of 200 ‚¤ per year and free housing in
Nassau Hall, Minto served Princeton as the first real mathematics
professor, treasurer, and clerk of the Board of Trustees. When Minto died
in 1796, it took three people to replace him."

I could never live up to *that*. You greatly overestimate me, Lloyd.

Now, you don't perceive how mineral build-up in a water heater - or
minor leaks in the plumbing - can affect efficiency. Just a _drip_ from
a hot water faucet can affect your daily use. ("I wonder where all that
extra gas is going?")


Ah but I do understand the effect of mineral buildup or minor leaks.
Still I wonder why the effect of my conservation effort should be wiped
out and reversed in a few months, from spring to summer. Just asking.

Please pay attention to basic principles. If it costs more energy than
it saves, it is NOT an economy.


I agree. Why do you feel that this would cost more energy than it saves,
though?
The fridge will convert no additional power (to heat) over the same
time and the tiny additional power needed to operate the necessary pump
would be paid back many many times in the comfort of the homeowner.
If the residents of the home delayed turning on the AC because of the
lowered humidity in the house for just a few minutes per month, the cost
of powering the little pump would be paid back. The rest is 'gravy'.

If you don't pay attention to the
intended designs of machines by maintaining them, they become less
efficient.


Well, yes. That's why I maintain them.
What has that got to do with anything?

Are you feeling all right Lloyd?

--Winston
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:44:31 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...


(...)

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

--Winston -- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.


The tank, flue or insulation are deteriorating???


At that rate? I don't think so.
0.6 therm is an additional 60,000 BTUh of energy *per day*.

My 40 gallon water heater very rarely comes on because it's
just SWMBO and me in the house. I turned off the gas to the
space heater a couple months ago.

The mystery remains....

--Winston
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:11:00 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 1:16 PM, Winston wrote:


(...)

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/


It's a combination of thermodynamics and placebo effect. I found my
energy usage went down for whatever I was measuring.


Did the power company agree with your measurements?
Were they on placebo as well?

Temperature affects two types of loss. System losses thru the pipes and
heater are proportional to temperature. Your clothes washer probably
works on weight, so there's proportional savings there.


We always use cold water for laundry. It works just fine.

But when you shower, you turn the knob to the temperature you want and
use more of that lower-temperature hot water.


After I adjusted the water heater, it was equilibrated at 7 F
lower than before I adjusted the water heater.

For two *months* afterward, I used significantly less gas.
At month three, I was using slightly *more* gas than before
adjusting the thermostat.
Are you saying it took me three *months* to decide I needed
to shower longer? Doesn't sound reasonable to me.
If that effect were in play, I should not have seen any
savings in the first couple months because I would have started
using more hot water immediately.

--Winston

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On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:03:11 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:21:43 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote: ...
Funny how the mind works.
I use that bow knot twice a day and never thought to apply it to
anything else. Someday I will discover a secure version; then I will
only have to use it once a day.
--Winston


Tie a third layer of the knot with the loops.


I see how that would make the knot more secure.... Hang on.

(Fumbles with shoe.)
I tried it just now and I was able to open the knot as
easily as before, even with the additional third layer.
Jim, you are a genius! Thanks.

In a classic psych experiment (that I didn't find with Google, so this
is from remote memory) the students are tasked to empty a cistern of
dirty water. On a table visible to them is a clean pitcher of water and
some drinking glasses, but otherwise they have no utensils. Typically
they use their hands instead of dirtying the glassware. When asked why
not afterwards they don't have good answers, it just wasn't "right".


I'll bet we both fall prey to the same kind of bias
every day. Luckily, it is never called to our attention.



--Winston
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