Winston fired this volley in
:

Walter Minto (1753 ƒ " 1796)


No, the other one (ca)1921. Some attribute his name as Walter, some
Walton, and all Wally.

How in heaven's name do you suppose to make a home more comfortable by
removing 250g of water per day? Run the numbers on a 1200sq.ft. home at
70F.

LLoyd

Winston fired this volley in
:

Are you saying it took me three *months* to decide I needed
to shower longer? Doesn't sound reasonable to me.
If that effect were in play, I should not have seen any
savings in the first couple months because I would have started
using more hot water immediately.


No, but over a three month period (Say September 1 through December 1),
you might decide you need hotter showers to be comfortable, especially
since you'll change the house ac/heating pattern during that same period,
going from about 78F to about 65F (typical).

As the pp said, you turn down the water heater, then you increase the hot
water flow to make the same comfort level you're accustomed to. The
colder the room, the more likely you are to run the shower hotter.

LLoyd

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:03:11 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In a classic psych experiment (that I didn't find with Google, so
this
is from remote memory) the students are tasked to empty a cistern
of
dirty water. On a table visible to them is a clean pitcher of water
and
some drinking glasses, but otherwise they have no utensils.
Typically
they use their hands instead of dirtying the glassware. When asked
why
not afterwards they don't have good answers, it just wasn't
"right".

I'll bet we both fall prey to the same kind of bias
every day. Luckily, it is never called to our attention.

--Winston

I have something of a mad professor reputation at the hardware store.

Recently though some of the guys there have begun to see raw shapes
and possibilities instead of the purpose on the label in objects the
same way I do. They came up with cutting boards as a source of plastic
sheets to make antenna insulators without any prompting. One steered
me to a thick nylon spacer when I asked for some round stock to
machine into a new insulating tip for a 12V lighter adapter.

It's from a computer Auto-Air adapter and has the Air connector built
into the back, so splicing on a new plug would lose the Air
capability. I thought I got a real good deal on it second-hand until I
noticed the center contact's screw-in retainer was broken off. It
worked, but the center contact fell out.

jsw

It's been up around 93F, last week. I went to my small town hardware, and
had them get two traditional wooden snow brushes out of storage, for me to
buy. I used them, the same day.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...


I have something of a mad professor reputation at the hardware store.

Recently though some of the guys there have begun to see raw shapes
and possibilities instead of the purpose on the label in objects the
same way I do. They came up with cutting boards as a source of plastic
sheets to make antenna insulators without any prompting. One steered
me to a thick nylon spacer when I asked for some round stock to
machine into a new insulating tip for a 12V lighter adapter.

jsw

On 6/23/2012 5:17 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:11:00 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 1:16 PM, Winston wrote:

(...)

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

It's a combination of thermodynamics and placebo effect. I found my
energy usage went down for whatever I was measuring.

Did the power company agree with your measurements?
Were they on placebo as well?

Never asked them. But I did get the info directly from the IR
output of the smart meter and by timing the on-time of the water heater.

Temperature affects two types of loss. System losses thru the pipes and
heater are proportional to temperature. Your clothes washer probably
works on weight, so there's proportional savings there.

We always use cold water for laundry. It works just fine.
Sometimes you don't get a choice. My dishwasher uses hot whether
I like it or not.

But when you shower, you turn the knob to the temperature you want and
use more of that lower-temperature hot water.

After I adjusted the water heater, it was equilibrated at 7 F
lower than before I adjusted the water heater.

For two *months* afterward, I used significantly less gas.
At month three, I was using slightly *more* gas than before
adjusting the thermostat.
Are you saying it took me three *months* to decide I needed
to shower longer?

I'm not trying to say anything about you.

I'm saying, that for me, a direct real-time measurement over
a much shorter period gave me the results I stated.
Don't have it set up now, but at the time, I could tell you
to the penny what a shower cost me.

That's one of the things about metrology. It costs less to take
shorter showers. You don't need ANY measurements to know that.
And if your shower is already as short as you can stand,
measuring won't change anything.

Doesn't sound reasonable to me.
If that effect were in play, I should not have seen any
savings in the first couple months because I would have started
using more hot water immediately.

--Winston

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message

How in heaven's name do you suppose to make a home more comfortable
by
removing 250g of water per day? Run the numbers on a 1200sq.ft.
home at
70F.
LLoyd

The HD thermoelectric dehumidifier claims 1100 -cubic- feet, which
isnt a large room. They suggest it for closets, photo darkrooms and
RVs.

100% humid air at 20C holds ~17 g/m^3 of water. To reduce the relative
humidity to 70%, 30% or ~5.1 g/m^3 of water has to be removed. 250mL
of water then equals about 49 cubic meters of air. If the room is two
meters high that makes it 16 feet square.

jsw

On 6/23/2012 4:30 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 6/23/2012 1:16 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:13:01 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

...If I can find a non-destructive way to do it
I'll add a temperature sensor to the cold side to see if it can
serve as
a dew point indicator.

That's not gonna be very accurate.
The peltier is a pump. For a given input temp, output temp
and power applied, you're gonna get a fixed amount of BTU
transferred.
Part of that is sensible heat, part latent heat. It's all affected
by
air flow, humidity, surface effects, ambient temp and probably other
stuff.

First I'll have to determine if the Peltier has enough excess cooling
power to further chill the liquid water after condensing it from
vapor. It might stabilize at or slightly below the dewpoint.

If not I could have an Arduino ramp it up and down and look for the
flat on the cooling slope, or reduce DC power until it does stabilize
at the dew point, which I can measure independently with a lab-quality
psychrometer.

I think the theory is sound. But the devil is in the details.
ALL of the input power comes out the hot side. Add to that the
much smaller pumped
power that's a nonlinear function of almost everything in the
environment. Once you start modulating the input power, things get messy.
I think you're gonna find that the error terms are gonna swamp
the measurement.

First place I looked had humidity sensors for under 5 bucks.
Whole modules under ten. Probably do much better on ebay??
No fuss, no muss.

And what are you gonna do with the information?
My motto is, don't measure anything if the result won't change
the future.

'Bout all you can do is turn on some heat lamps pointed at the
stuff you don't want to rust. Separate sensor sounds like a winner.

jsw

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
I adjusted my water heater thermostat down by 7 degrees a few months
ago
and started watching my natural gas consumption numbers.

Initially I saw a 0.6 therm daily year-over-year decrease, then a
0.4
therm daily YoY decrease, then a 0.1 therm daily YoY *increase* and
last
month, the power company said I used as much gas as I did long
*before* I
turned down the water heater thermostat.

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

--Winston -- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.

Can you reconstruct from old bills if the water heater's gas
consumption was rising before you made the change?

jsw

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:34:42 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Winston fired this volley in
:

Walter Minto (1753 ƒ " 1796)


No, the other one (ca)1921. Some attribute his name as Walter, some
Walton, and all Wally.

I will look him up anon.


How in heaven's name do you suppose to make a home more comfortable by
removing 250g of water per day? Run the numbers on a 1200sq.ft. home at
70F.

I'm more comfortable in a dryer environment and very uncomfortable
in much over say 60% RH. I didn't mean to say that this adaptation
would turn a 60% RH building into a 20% RH building. I did mean to
say that it would tend to reduce the relative humidity while yielding
distilled water for non-critical applications.

I figure that for almost No Money that is a pretty good deal.



--Winston

On 23 Jun 2012 23:55:25 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:44:31 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...

(...)

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

--Winston -- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.

The tank, flue or insulation are deteriorating???

At that rate? I don't think so.
0.6 therm is an additional 60,000 BTUh of energy *per day*.

My 40 gallon water heater very rarely comes on because it's
just SWMBO and me in the house. I turned off the gas to the
space heater a couple months ago.

The mystery remains....

I had a 600% increase one month a few springs ago, so I screamed at
the electric company. They replaced the meter. It was a peachy month:
no A/C, very little forced air furnace use.

Have the (Pacific Gas and Extortion?) gas company check your meter,
and, if they won't do it, have an HVAC guy do a pressure test of the
plumbing to your system to ensure no leaks. If it is a leak, it could
blow your winsome little head off, Winny. Not blowing up is worth a
couple days of no hot water, right?

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On 23 Jun 2012 19:46:34 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 05:11:37 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 23 Jun 2012 04:13:55 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:52:30 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
Building on Jim's idea, it'd be nifty to use an open-top drum lid as
a hoop to secure the fabric.

--Winston

Mine are plastic with screw-on lid rings that fit too snugly. Rope
works fine.

Double knot? Trucker's hitch?

Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned, stinky, rubber bungee cords?

I vaguely remember a section of a *real* hardware store
that had the elastic cord and ends for sale. One could
assemble any length bungee. Same was true for web straps.

They had 100 piece boxes of hardware too.

Sigh.

Look for a local fastener supply company. I just bought boxes of 100
5/16x1", lock washers, flat washers, and nuts for a total of $7 and
change. I had paid $33 for a boxs of 50 5mmx16x0.8 metric cap head
allen screws at the local the month before (thinking the Chinese
asshole who sold me the funky linear rails would cover it) and just
about **** when I heard the price. I did get a new ballscrew out of
the guy, though. He had sent metric drilled/tapped linear rails put
together onto elevated stands with SAE hardware. Where they even
_found_ US hardware over there, I'll never know.

Anyway, the local fastener guys are the only way to fly. YOu can buy
a box of 100 from them for less than you can get ten from the local
Borgs. Chances are good that they're of better quality than Borg crap,
too. G C Fastener & Supply in San Jose, CA - (408) 451-9650, maybe?

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On 6/23/2012 12:46 PM, Winston wrote:


Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned, stinky, rubber bungee cords?

Outdoor store like REI has cord and ends.
Won't be cheap, but today, driving across town costs more
than paying a higher price closer.
Sometimes, you find 'em at home depot and clones.

"mike" wrote in message
...

I think the theory is sound. But the devil is in the details.
ALL of the input power comes out the hot side. Add to that the
much smaller pumped
power that's a nonlinear function of almost everything in the
environment. Once you start modulating the input power, things get
messy.
I think you're gonna find that the error terms are gonna swamp
the measurement.

I regulated the temperature of the Peltier cooler quite precisely on
that laser diode project. It's not difficult.

First place I looked had humidity sensors for under 5 bucks.
Whole modules under ten. Probably do much better on ebay??
No fuss, no muss.

I have several. They all disagree.


And what are you gonna do with the information?
My motto is, don't measure anything if the result won't change
the future.

I'd like a simpler, possibly automated system to tell when to open
windows and when to run the A/C, based on indoor and outdoor temps and
dew points. It isn't completely clear when the outdoor temp is between
65 and 70 and humidity is high, even if the house is 80F inside.

For example right now outdoors reads 64.4F and 97%, indoors shows
78.4F and 56%, on 6-month-old Oregon Scientific sensors. Earlier when
it was warmer they both read almost identically. By my 3x rule of
thumb a 14F temperature difference is equivalent to a 42% humidity
difference, 56+42=98.

But I haven't completely related those readings to the temperature and
humidity levels I'm comfortable with, which will change as I acclimate
to summer heat.

There's probably no way to sell it as a product, people's tolerances
vary too much and it requires user intervention to open and close
windows.

jsw

"mike" wrote in message
...

I think the theory is sound. But the devil is in the details.
ALL of the input power comes out the hot side. Add to that the
much smaller pumped
power that's a nonlinear function of almost everything in the
environment. Once you start modulating the input power, things get
messy.
I think you're gonna find that the error terms are gonna swamp
the measurement.

I regulated the temperature of the Peltier cooler quite precisely on
that laser diode project. It's not difficult.

First place I looked had humidity sensors for under 5 bucks.
Whole modules under ten. Probably do much better on ebay??
No fuss, no muss.

I have several. They all disagree.


And what are you gonna do with the information?
My motto is, don't measure anything if the result won't change
the future.

I'd like a simpler, possibly automated system to tell when to open
windows and when to run the A/C, based on indoor and outdoor temps and
dew points. It isn't completely clear when the outdoor temp is between
65 and 70 and humidity is high, even if the house is 80F inside.

For example right now outdoors reads 64.4F and 97%, indoors shows
78.4F and 56%, on 6-month-old Oregon Scientific sensors. Earlier when
it was warmer they both read almost identically. By my 3x rule of
thumb a 14F temperature difference is equivalent to a 42% humidity
difference, 56+42=98.

But I haven't completely related those readings to the temperature and
humidity levels I'm comfortable with, which will change as I acclimate
to summer heat.

There's probably no way to sell it as a product, people's tolerances
vary too much and it requires user intervention to open and close
windows.

jsw

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:42:38 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Winston fired this volley in
:

Are you saying it took me three *months* to decide I needed to shower
longer? Doesn't sound reasonable to me. If that effect were in play, I
should not have seen any savings in the first couple months because I
would have started using more hot water immediately.


No, but over a three month period (Say September 1 through December 1),
you might decide you need hotter showers to be comfortable, especially
since you'll change the house ac/heating pattern during that same
period, going from about 78F to about 65F (typical).

That's 'compensated for' in the 'year over year' comparison, yes?

I turned down the water heater thermostat at the end of January 2012.
So the weather was actually warming up over the months in question.
I did that because the power company said I used 0.3 therms per day
or (700,000 BTUh/mo) more in January 2012 than in January 2011.

On the February bill, I reduced my usage by 0.6 therms per day or
2,200,000 (Two million,two hundred thousand) fewer BTUh/mo in February
2012 than in February 2011. Who knew the water heater was such an energy
hog? Even at 7 F cooler, the water was plenty hot enough for my
normal showers, so I got the benefit of the lower thermostat setting
without having to use appreciably more water, so the numbers say.

As the pp said, you turn down the water heater, then you increase the
hot water flow to make the same comfort level you're accustomed to. The
colder the room, the more likely you are to run the shower hotter.

I'm in Silicon Gulch, CA where there really isn't any weather to
speak of.
I visited Minnesota in February once so I do understand what 'Cold' is.

The mystery remains.

--Winston -- Now looking for an accurate NG totalizing flow meter.

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:39:39 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 5:17 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:11:00 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 1:16 PM, Winston wrote:

(...)

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

It's a combination of thermodynamics and placebo effect. I found my
energy usage went down for whatever I was measuring.

Did the power company agree with your measurements? Were they on
placebo as well?

Never asked them. But I did get the info directly from the IR output of
the smart meter and by timing the on-time of the water heater.

That's interesting! How did you do that, please?

Temperature affects two types of loss. System losses thru the pipes
and heater are proportional to temperature. Your clothes washer
probably works on weight, so there's proportional savings there.

We always use cold water for laundry. It works just fine.
Sometimes you don't get a choice. My dishwasher uses hot whether I like
it or not.

And most will make up the temperature loss by heating the water
in the enclosure electrically at double the cost per equivalent BTUh.

But when you shower, you turn the knob to the temperature you want and
use more of that lower-temperature hot water.

After I adjusted the water heater, it was equilibrated at 7 F lower
than before I adjusted the water heater.

For two *months* afterward, I used significantly less gas. At month
three, I was using slightly *more* gas than before adjusting the
thermostat.
Are you saying it took me three *months* to decide I needed to shower
longer?

I'm not trying to say anything about you.

My point is that if I compensated for 100% of the temperature loss
by using more hot water, I should not have seen the significant
savings I saw on my energy bill for February, March and April.

I'm saying, that for me, a direct real-time measurement over a much
shorter period gave me the results I stated. Don't have it set up now,
but at the time, I could tell you to the penny what a shower cost me.

That's one of the things about metrology. It costs less to take shorter
showers. You don't need ANY measurements to know that. And if your
shower is already as short as you can stand, measuring won't change
anything.

But lowering the thermostat will, if one's water heater is running
above optimum temperature. Or it should change, anyway.

Doesn't sound reasonable to me.
If that effect were in play, I should not have seen any savings in the
first couple months because I would have started using more hot water
immediately.

I am left with questions. But I'm *always* left with questions.

--Winston

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:06:28 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

Anyway, the local fastener guys are the only way to fly. YOu can buy a
box of 100 from them for less than you can get ten from the local Borgs.
Chances are good that they're of better quality than Borg crap, too. G
C Fastener & Supply in San Jose, CA - (408) 451-9650, maybe?

I will look them up. Sounds like a shorter ride than
to my "favorite store in the world", Olander in Sunnyvale.

Thanks!

--Winston

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 21:13:10 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...

(...)

I'll bet we both fall prey to the same kind of bias every day. Luckily,
it is never called to our attention.
--Winston

I have something of a mad professor reputation at the hardware store.

(...)

I had a boss once that referred to me as a "mad scientist" more than once.
I took that as a huge compliment.

They're all kinds of parts available for very little cash if one
is able to think out of the Big box. I call this my 'Cantenna Theory'.



--Winston

On 6/23/2012 8:57 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...

I think the theory is sound. But the devil is in the details.
ALL of the input power comes out the hot side. Add to that the
much smaller pumped
power that's a nonlinear function of almost everything in the
environment. Once you start modulating the input power, things get
messy.
I think you're gonna find that the error terms are gonna swamp
the measurement.

I regulated the temperature of the Peltier cooler quite precisely on
that laser diode project. It's not difficult.

I misunderstood. I interpreted that you were gonna determine
dewpoint by finding the knee in the curve where it took more
heat flow to reduce the temperature further during condensation.
That would have been a measurement of heat flux in the presence
of two air flows, two temperatures and a variable DC
power input into a low efficiency heat pump.

First place I looked had humidity sensors for under 5 bucks.
Whole modules under ten. Probably do much better on ebay??
No fuss, no muss.

I have several. They all disagree.
A man who has one clock always knows what time it is.
A man with two clocks, not so much.

I can't find the reference, but there was a thread a while
back on measuring dew point. The most interesting one
was a led/photodetector and a temperature controlled
mirror.
You modulated the temperature to keep the mirror right
on the edge of fogging up.
Direct measurement of the thing you want to know.
Relatively tolerant of outside influences.
In that case, temperature is all you need to measure.


And what are you gonna do with the information?
My motto is, don't measure anything if the result won't change
the future.

I'd like a simpler, possibly automated system to tell when to open
windows and when to run the A/C, based on indoor and outdoor temps and
dew points. It isn't completely clear when the outdoor temp is between
65 and 70 and humidity is high, even if the house is 80F inside.

For example right now outdoors reads 64.4F and 97%, indoors shows
78.4F and 56%, on 6-month-old Oregon Scientific sensors. Earlier when
it was warmer they both read almost identically. By my 3x rule of
thumb a 14F temperature difference is equivalent to a 42% humidity
difference, 56+42=98.

But I haven't completely related those readings to the temperature and
humidity levels I'm comfortable with, which will change as I acclimate
to summer heat.

There's probably no way to sell it as a product, people's tolerances
vary too much and it requires user intervention to open and close
windows.

jsw

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:57:36 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 23 Jun 2012 23:55:25 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:44:31 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...

(...)

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

--Winston -- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.

The tank, flue or insulation are deteriorating???

At that rate? I don't think so.
0.6 therm is an additional 60,000 BTUh of energy *per day*.

My 40 gallon water heater very rarely comes on because it's just SWMBO
and me in the house. I turned off the gas to the space heater a couple
months ago.

The mystery remains....

I had a 600% increase one month a few springs ago, so I screamed at the
electric company. They replaced the meter. It was a peachy month: no
A/C, very little forced air furnace use.

I figure I am paying handsomely for the 'startup current' on my
compressor. I don't think the old mechanical power meters had
the bandwidth to measure largish 500 mS current draws.

Our shiny new meters do, though. YAY! No, wait...

Have the (Pacific Gas and Extortion?) gas company check your meter, and,
if they won't do it, have an HVAC guy do a pressure test of the plumbing
to your system to ensure no leaks. If it is a leak, it could blow your
winsome little head off, Winny. Not blowing up is worth a couple days
of no hot water, right?

Indeed.

If it were a leak of that magnitude I think I and many many neighbors
would be aware of it, though. Not that the power company would do
anything about our concern...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39089768...ipeline-blast-
still-looking-odor-complaints/

--Winston

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:07:38 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
I adjusted my water heater thermostat down by 7 degrees a few months
ago
and started watching my natural gas consumption numbers.

Initially I saw a 0.6 therm daily year-over-year decrease, then a 0.4
therm daily YoY decrease, then a 0.1 therm daily YoY *increase* and
last
month, the power company said I used as much gas as I did long *before*
I
turned down the water heater thermostat.

I wonder where all that extra gas is going? :/

--Winston -- Hopes this isn't an elevating experience.

Can you reconstruct from old bills if the water heater's gas consumption
was rising before you made the change?

Good question, Mad Professor!

January 2011 0.5 therms less per day than in January 2010
February 2011 0.2 therms more per day than in February 2010

April 2011 0.5 therms less per day than in April 2010

July 2011 0.2 therms more per day than in July 2010
August 2011 equal therms per day as in August 2010
September 2011 equal therms per day as in September 2010
October 2011 equal therms per day as in October 2010
November 2011 equal therms per day as in November 2010
December 2011 0.1 therms less per day than in December 2010
January 2012 0.3 therms more per day than in January 2011

So, it wasn't rising much, considering the noise in the data.

--Winston

On 6/23/2012 9:21 PM, Winston wrote:
snip


--Winston-- Now looking for an accurate NG totalizing flow meter.

I have one of those on the outside of the house where the gas comes in.
The test dial is pretty high resolution. I used that to determine
the gas input of my furnace.
Then I put a flapper on a microswitch that sits on a register.
I know how long the fan runs and how much gas is used for that time.
You have to factor out the preheat and cooldown time differences
between the fan and the burner.
I stuff that into a PalmIII and log/plot the on/off times for each
cycle and a running average.

http://myplace.frontier.com/~nm7u/pictures.html

That's an old archive picture.

Currently, it's been 1254 minutes since the AC last ran. Last few
cycles, it ran at about 5% duty factor.
I had it set up to track inside/outside temps too, but it took
a bunch of hardware in the middle and didn't really learn me much.

Works in winter for gas heat and summer for electric heat pump.

To do this with a gas water heater, you'd need to construct
some sort of flame sensor. You could tap off some signal inside
the heater, but I don't like messing with stuff that can blow
up the house if I screw it up. Insurance companies take a dim
view of that.

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:29:18 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 9:21 PM, Winston wrote:

(...)

--Winston-- Now looking for an accurate NG totalizing flow meter.

I have one of those on the outside of the house where the gas comes in.
The test dial is pretty high resolution. I used that to determine the
gas input of my furnace.
Then I put a flapper on a microswitch that sits on a register. I know
how long the fan runs and how much gas is used for that time. You have
to factor out the preheat and cooldown time differences between the fan
and the burner.
I stuff that into a PalmIII and log/plot the on/off times for each cycle
and a running average.

Interesting approach. Somehow I'd not considered that my water heater
and space heater run at a fixed consumption rate when they are on.
Thanks!

(...)

To do this with a gas water heater, you'd need to construct some sort of
flame sensor. You could tap off some signal inside the heater, but I
don't like messing with stuff that can blow up the house if I screw it
up. Insurance companies take a dim view of that.

Yup. I'm currently lusting after one of them ultrasonic
'clamp on' flowmeters instead. Nifty.

--Winston

On 6/23/2012 9:35 PM, Winston wrote:
snip
Never asked them. But I did get the info directly from the IR output of
the smart meter and by timing the on-time of the water heater.

That's interesting! How did you do that, please?

The electric smart meter has an IR led that flashes in tune with
consumption.
For my meter, watts = 3600 * Frequency of the flash.
Polk a PDA IR sensor at it and calculate/graph consumption.
Turns out that WalMart sells cake slices in a plastic package
that is a friction fit over the meter and just the right size
and shape to hold a PalmIII over the led. Win-Win. Nice
box and I get to eat cake.

Does a real-time plot of consumption. Another program reads the
log and lets me poke around on the graph to read instantaneous
consumption and the area under the curve for a selected region.

Pretty easy to identify the signatures of the water heater, heat pump,
fridge etc.

For stuff that unplugs, a Kil-A-Watt meter is a cheap monitor.
There's also a device that clamps on the electric meter and reads
either the LED or a rotating disk and wirelessly transmits real-time
consumption numbers. They have a computer interface, but it's too
expensive for my taste and it looks like the utility vendors that
planned to support it have backed out. I think it was called
Microsoft HOHM. Blueline Innovations is the vendor,
but it's also marketed under other names.

Temperature affects two types of loss. System losses thru the pipes
and heater are proportional to temperature. Your clothes washer
probably works on weight, so there's proportional savings there.

We always use cold water for laundry. It works just fine.
Sometimes you don't get a choice. My dishwasher uses hot whether I like
it or not.

And most will make up the temperature loss by heating the water
in the enclosure electrically at double the cost per equivalent BTUh.

But when you shower, you turn the knob to the temperature you want and
use more of that lower-temperature hot water.

After I adjusted the water heater, it was equilibrated at 7 F lower
than before I adjusted the water heater.

For two *months* afterward, I used significantly less gas. At month
three, I was using slightly *more* gas than before adjusting the
thermostat.
Are you saying it took me three *months* to decide I needed to shower
longer?

I'm not trying to say anything about you.

My point is that if I compensated for 100% of the temperature loss
by using more hot water, I should not have seen the significant
savings I saw on my energy bill for February, March and April.

Don't know what to tell you. The subconscious is a powerful thing.
When I had my house weatherized, I saw dramatic reductions in energy
consumption. Over time, it crept back up somewhat. I think the change
was due to me paying a LOT of attention to the numbers initially.
The consumption went back up somewhat when I quit fretting over it...
and subconsciously became less frugal.

I'm saying, that for me, a direct real-time measurement over a much
shorter period gave me the results I stated. Don't have it set up now,
but at the time, I could tell you to the penny what a shower cost me.

That's one of the things about metrology. It costs less to take shorter
showers. You don't need ANY measurements to know that. And if your
shower is already as short as you can stand, measuring won't change
anything.

But lowering the thermostat will, if one's water heater is running
above optimum temperature. Or it should change, anyway.

Thermodynamically, the optimum temperature for a water heater is OFF.
For electric heat, 100% of the electricity gets converted to heat.
I have no experience with gas, but there may be some optimum on/off
profile for a gas water heater. There are losses up the flue. I don't
suspect it makes much difference.
In general, lower temperature reduces the losses from the heater envelope
and the pipes.
For dilution I don't think it makes any difference. If you want a
gallon of 100F water, the temp of the hot and cold water mixed together
is irrelevant. If you mix it to 100F, you used the same number of
BTU's. That assumes that the cold temp into the heater was the same
as the current cold temp you're diluting with.

Low flow faucets in the bathroom sink made a change in hot water
consumption.
It now takes so long for the hot water to get to the bathroom that I
just use cold water. ;-)


Doesn't sound reasonable to me.
If that effect were in play, I should not have seen any savings in the
first couple months because I would have started using more hot water
immediately.

I am left with questions. But I'm *always* left with questions.

--Winston

On 6/23/2012 9:58 PM, Winston wrote:


If it were a leak of that magnitude I think I and many many neighbors
would be aware of it, though. Not that the power company would do
anything about our concern...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39089768...ipeline-blast-
still-looking-odor-complaints/

--Winston

I called the gas company and told 'em I smelled gas outside.
It wasn't from me and I didn't think it was a big deal, but...
I'd hardly hung up the phone when the truck pulled up.

He had a really cool gadget that was some kind of spectrometer.
He pointed the laser sight at the flue stacks on each house
and said he could tell if any unburned gas was coming out.
Way Cool.
He had a more conventional sniffer for snooping the path of the
gas main.
Around here, they take it very seriously.

On 6/23/2012 10:47 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:29:18 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 9:21 PM, Winston wrote:

(...)

--Winston-- Now looking for an accurate NG totalizing flow meter.

I have one of those on the outside of the house where the gas comes in.
The test dial is pretty high resolution. I used that to determine the
gas input of my furnace.
Then I put a flapper on a microswitch that sits on a register. I know
how long the fan runs and how much gas is used for that time. You have
to factor out the preheat and cooldown time differences between the fan
and the burner.
I stuff that into a PalmIII and log/plot the on/off times for each cycle
and a running average.

Interesting approach. Somehow I'd not considered that my water heater
and space heater run at a fixed consumption rate when they are on.
Yes, once you confirm what that fixed rate is, what it says on the tag
ain't always what you get, you still have to determine
when they're on.
I elected not to try to put wires into the furnace controller.
Sensing the fan let me put the sensor right were my electronics sat.
Thanks!

(...)

To do this with a gas water heater, you'd need to construct some sort of
flame sensor. You could tap off some signal inside the heater, but I
don't like messing with stuff that can blow up the house if I screw it
up. Insurance companies take a dim view of that.

Yup. I'm currently lusting after one of them ultrasonic
'clamp on' flowmeters instead. Nifty.

--Winston

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Mitty

No, Minto. He was the person who came out with that Rankine Cycle
automobile using Freon as the working fluid somewhere between the late 60s
early 80s.

He lived in Southwest Florida -- 'came up with all sorts of wacky ideas,
including some for gravity control, too.

But he was (and Winston is) a lot like Walter Mitty; yes.

LLoyd

mike fired this volley in news:js6ao9$2pp$1@dont-
email.me:

For dilution I don't think it makes any difference. If you want a
gallon of 100F water, the temp of the hot and cold water mixed together
is irrelevant. If you mix it to 100F, you used the same number of
BTU's.

Nope, Mike. The theory is right, but the upwind losses are higher, the
higher the water temperature.

Say, for sake of arguement, that you had water at exactly 100F in the
heater all the time, and no losses in the _lines_ between the heater and
the faucet. And, lets say for arguement that the room air temperature
where the heater lives is 100F, also. And let's say the cold water is
50F.

Then you'd mix 100% hot, 0% cold to get your 100F water, and there would
be no radiation losses from the tank into the room, since the temps
inside and outside were the same.

Now, raise the tank temperature to 150F. You have to add 50% hot and 50%
cold to get to 100F. So, same number of BTUs, yes, but something else:

Now the tank is radiating heat out into the room. There are losses
occurring now that weren't before.

It's NOT the same total number of BTUs. That only occurs in
theoretically perfectly-insulated systems.

Wally doesn't have one of those.

LLoyd

On 6/24/2012 5:52 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in news:js6ao9$2pp$1@dont-
email.me:

For dilution I don't think it makes any difference. If you want a
gallon of 100F water, the temp of the hot and cold water mixed together
is irrelevant. If you mix it to 100F, you used the same number of
BTU's.

Nope, Mike. The theory is right, but the upwind losses are higher, the
higher the water temperature.

Say, for sake of arguement, that you had water at exactly 100F in the
heater all the time, and no losses in the _lines_ between the heater and
the faucet. And, lets say for arguement that the room air temperature
where the heater lives is 100F, also. And let's say the cold water is
50F.

Then you'd mix 100% hot, 0% cold to get your 100F water, and there would
be no radiation losses from the tank into the room, since the temps
inside and outside were the same.

Now, raise the tank temperature to 150F. You have to add 50% hot and 50%
cold to get to 100F. So, same number of BTUs, yes, but something else:

Now the tank is radiating heat out into the room. There are losses
occurring now that weren't before.

It's NOT the same total number of BTUs. That only occurs in
theoretically perfectly-insulated systems.

Wally doesn't have one of those.

LLoyd


Or you could have just red the whole thread before repeating
the explanation:

QUOTE
Temperature affects two types of loss.
System losses thru the pipes and heater are proportional to temperature
/QUOTE

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:20:19 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 10:47 PM, Winston wrote:

(...)

Interesting approach. Somehow I'd not considered that my water heater
and space heater run at a fixed consumption rate when they are on.
Yes, once you confirm what that fixed rate is, what it says on the tag
ain't always what you get, you still have to determine when they're on.
I elected not to try to put wires into the furnace controller. Sensing
the fan let me put the sensor right were my electronics sat.

Perhaps I'll put an IR photosensor aimed at the burner.
Or a thermocouple nearby. Haven't decided.

Thanks again.

--Winston

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:05:14 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/23/2012 9:35 PM, Winston wrote:
snip
Never asked them. But I did get the info directly from the IR output
of the smart meter and by timing the on-time of the water heater.

That's interesting! How did you do that, please?

The electric smart meter has an IR led that flashes in tune with
consumption.
For my meter, watts = 3600 * Frequency of the flash. Polk a PDA IR
sensor at it and calculate/graph consumption. Turns out that WalMart
sells cake slices in a plastic package that is a friction fit over the
meter and just the right size and shape to hold a PalmIII over the led.
Win-Win. Nice box and I get to eat cake.

You are a frugal genius. I am in awe.

Does a real-time plot of consumption. Another program reads the log and
lets me poke around on the graph to read instantaneous consumption and
the area under the curve for a selected region.

Pretty easy to identify the signatures of the water heater, heat pump,
fridge etc.

For stuff that unplugs, a Kil-A-Watt meter is a cheap monitor. There's
also a device that clamps on the electric meter and reads either the LED
or a rotating disk and wirelessly transmits real-time consumption
numbers. They have a computer interface, but it's too expensive for my
taste and it looks like the utility vendors that planned to support it
have backed out. I think it was called Microsoft HOHM. Blueline
Innovations is the vendor, but it's also marketed under other names.

Very interesting. Thanks!

(...)

Don't know what to tell you. The subconscious is a powerful thing. When
I had my house weatherized, I saw dramatic reductions in energy
consumption. Over time, it crept back up somewhat. I think the change
was due to me paying a LOT of attention to the numbers initially. The
consumption went back up somewhat when I quit fretting over it... and
subconsciously became less frugal.

Perhaps that is it.
I will have to make some time to gather the hard numbers, as you imply.

(...)

But lowering the thermostat will, if one's water heater is running
above optimum temperature. Or it should change, anyway.

Thermodynamically, the optimum temperature for a water heater is OFF.
For electric heat, 100% of the electricity gets converted to heat. I
have no experience with gas, but there may be some optimum on/off
profile for a gas water heater. There are losses up the flue. I don't
suspect it makes much difference.
In general, lower temperature reduces the losses from the heater
envelope and the pipes.

Yes.

For dilution I don't think it makes any difference. If you want a
gallon of 100F water, the temp of the hot and cold water mixed together
is irrelevant. If you mix it to 100F, you used the same number of
BTU's. That assumes that the cold temp into the heater was the same as
the current cold temp you're diluting with.

The thermostatically controlled mixer valves in my bathrooms
take care of that.

Low flow faucets in the bathroom sink made a change in hot water
consumption.
It now takes so long for the hot water to get to the bathroom that I
just use cold water. ;-)

Yup. I have to run about a gallon of water out of the pipes before
I get hot water in the bathrooms or kitchen. Instead, after working on
the car or in the yard, I'll put a load of laundry in the washer (located
a few inches from the water heater) push in the 'warm wash' button
temporarily and I have a washcloth full of nice warm water PDQ. A spritz
of foaming soap and I can clean up nice and quick without wasting undue
amounts of water or natural gas. Push the button for 'cold wash' and
let the washer do it's thing.

--Winston

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:14:23 -0700, mike wrote:

(...)

I called the gas company and told 'em I smelled gas outside. It wasn't
from me and I didn't think it was a big deal, but... I'd hardly hung up
the phone when the truck pulled up.

He had a really cool gadget that was some kind of spectrometer. He
pointed the laser sight at the flue stacks on each house and said he
could tell if any unburned gas was coming out. Way Cool.
He had a more conventional sniffer for snooping the path of the gas
main.
Around here, they take it very seriously.

That is a Good Thing and as it should be, IMHO.

--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:05:14 -0700, mike wrote:
On 6/23/2012 9:35 PM, Winston wrote:

snip
For stuff that unplugs, a Kil-A-Watt meter is a cheap monitor.
There's
also a device that clamps on the electric meter and reads either
the LED
or a rotating disk and wirelessly transmits real-time consumption
numbers. They have a computer interface, but it's too expensive
for my
taste and it looks like the utility vendors that planned to support
it
have backed out. I think it was called Microsoft HOHM. Blueline
Innovations is the vendor, but it's also marketed under other
names.

Usually the electric meters tell me all I need to know, but once when
they didn't I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on current
probe plugged into a Radio Shack multimeter that has an opto-isolated
serial data output.

The datalogging laptop is an old, nearly free 400 MHz Compaq Armada
that draws about 12W from the AC adapter (no battery), 7W when the LCD
powers down. That's low enough to run it remotely off a car battery.
If it's knocked off the folding chair or table onto the floor I
haven't lost much, though laptops are easy to strap down.

jsw

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:20:19 -0700, mike wrote:

Interesting approach. Somehow I'd not considered that my water
heater
and space heater run at a fixed consumption rate when they are on.
Yes, once you confirm what that fixed rate is, what it says on the
tag
ain't always what you get, you still have to determine when
they're on.
I elected not to try to put wires into the furnace controller.
Sensing
the fan let me put the sensor right were my electronics sat.

Perhaps I'll put an IR photosensor aimed at the burner.
Or a thermocouple nearby. Haven't decided.

--Winston

I'd put a thermocouple in the flue and capture both timing and heat
loss.

jsw

mike fired this volley in news:js7esb$q7t$1@dont-
email.me:

Or you could have just red the whole thread before repeating
the explanation:


Or if you had red it you wouldn't have stated "same number of BTUs".

Guess we're even on not redding.

LLoyd

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:01:42 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...

(...)

Perhaps I'll put an IR photosensor aimed at the burner. Or a
thermocouple nearby. Haven't decided.

--Winston

I'd put a thermocouple in the flue and capture both timing and heat
loss.

Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

--Winston

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:35:46 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:05:14 -0700, mike wrote:
On 6/23/2012 9:35 PM, Winston wrote:

snip
For stuff that unplugs, a Kil-A-Watt meter is a cheap monitor. There's
also a device that clamps on the electric meter and reads either the
LED
or a rotating disk and wirelessly transmits real-time consumption
numbers. They have a computer interface, but it's too expensive for
my
taste and it looks like the utility vendors that planned to support it
have backed out. I think it was called Microsoft HOHM. Blueline
Innovations is the vendor, but it's also marketed under other names.

Usually the electric meters tell me all I need to know, but once when
they didn't I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on current
probe plugged into a Radio Shack multimeter that has an opto-isolated
serial data output.

The datalogging laptop is an old, nearly free 400 MHz Compaq Armada that
draws about 12W from the AC adapter (no battery), 7W when the LCD powers
down. That's low enough to run it remotely off a car battery. If it's
knocked off the folding chair or table onto the floor I haven't lost
much, though laptops are easy to strap down.

I think it would be nifty to come up with a power adapter
for the sound card input to log power as compensated for
power factor. Left channel, volts. Right channel amps.

--Winston

On 6/24/2012 10:01 AM, Winston wrote:
snip
Lemme say this about frugal...

The electric and gas bills around here come with a graph
of the last 13 months of consumption as an average
number of consumption/day. There are also numbers
for the average consumption/day and average daily
temperature for this month and 12 months ago. Even on
such a coarse graph, I can see when I installed the DIY
heat recovery ventilator and the two months of pollen
season when I ran an air filter 24/7.

Don't discount the value of turning off vampire devices.
Back when the US converted TV formats, I ended up with
four cable boxes and two VCR's hooked to the antenna so I could time
shift stuff.
Later, I discovered that the cable boxes were almost 35 watts
each when powered off. OUCH!
So, I put a power strip in the line and shut 'em off when not
needed. Visible savings. Problem was that I had to reset the
clock and scan the channels every time I powered 'em up.
I stuck with it for several weeks before I gave up. Switched
to 7W HDTV converters and just left 'em on.
Big initial savings, but petered out.

Back in the day, I had a tiny RV with an 18 gallon water tank.
Two people could live off that and shower every day for a week.
I tried it at home. Yep, you can take a shower on very little
water. That lasted a week. I really like a long hot shower.

For years, in summer I covered 50% of the windows with R5 pink
insulation board. In winter, 100%. I painted it the color of the
house and used a marker to put lines that matched the T-11.
From the front, it looked like a house with no windows.
BIG savings. My neighbors called me "the mole".
Putting in double pane windows actually made my HVAC consumption go up,
but the there's more light. It was hard to turn down that stimulus money.

I light the place with three 1.5W LED lamps. But I'm lazy and leave
'em on 24/7. Yes, it's cheaper to flip on the bathroom CFL when I go
pee than to leave the LED on 24/7.

You can tell that I live alone ;-)

On 6/24/2012 11:35 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:05:14 -0700, mike wrote:
On 6/23/2012 9:35 PM, Winston wrote:

snip
For stuff that unplugs, a Kil-A-Watt meter is a cheap monitor.
There's
also a device that clamps on the electric meter and reads either
the LED
or a rotating disk and wirelessly transmits real-time consumption
numbers. They have a computer interface, but it's too expensive
for my
taste and it looks like the utility vendors that planned to support
it
have backed out. I think it was called Microsoft HOHM. Blueline
Innovations is the vendor, but it's also marketed under other
names.

Usually the electric meters tell me all I need to know, but once when
they didn't I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on current
probe plugged into a Radio Shack multimeter that has an opto-isolated
serial data output.

The datalogging laptop is an old, nearly free 400 MHz Compaq Armada
that draws about 12W from the AC adapter (no battery), 7W when the LCD
powers down. That's low enough to run it remotely off a car battery.
If it's knocked off the folding chair or table onto the floor I
haven't lost much, though laptops are easy to strap down.

jsw


I did exactly the same thing to log my water heater consumption.
That works fine for devices with power factor of 1, like a water heater.
It can give you a hint about relative consumption, but the actual
power you compute from RMS current * RMS voltage = VA is not real power
(watts) if
your power factor isn't 1. Many devices are .6 or so. Computers, CFL,
anything with a motor, most electronic stuff. And even your current
number isn't right unless you use a real RMS responding clamp-on meter.
Most aren't.

Here in the US, we split the 240 in two and run half the house off each.
I'd have to use two current sensors.

For the 120V stuff that plugs in, the Kil-A-Watt meter does a great job
of calculating VA and real power. Don't think it's available in a 240V
version.

And that's what motivated the PDA project. I measure exactly what I'm
being billed for, cause I'm looking at the exact data that the power
company uses to bill me. And it works on stuff that is permanently wired
and where I can't easily access one wire.

I rarely use that any more. Once I found the Blueline at a garage sale,
I just use it. All I get is a running total, but I already know the
individual
device signatures.

On 24 Jun 2012 20:42:20 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:01:42 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...

(...)

Perhaps I'll put an IR photosensor aimed at the burner. Or a
thermocouple nearby. Haven't decided.

--Winston

I'd put a thermocouple in the flue and capture both timing and heat
loss.

Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

Mine's plastic. The HVAC unit is a Carrier Infinity and is 96%
efficient. The output feels like it's maybe 120F.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln