On 6/24/2012 1:46 PM, Winston wrote:


I think it would be nifty to come up with a power adapter
for the sound card input to log power as compensated for
power factor. Left channel, volts. Right channel amps.

--Winston

Should be very simple.
Download a dual-channel scope program for the sound card.
Plug an AC wall-wart into one channel, the current probe into the other.
Calibrate out the inherent phase shifts.
for each sample, multiply volts x amps and integrate over a cycle.
It's all ac coupled, so you'd have to figure out what to do with
asymmetrical loads, like any load with a half-wave rectifier.

Most of the design work is in keeping line glitches from
smoking your sound card...or worse.

Wouldn't be surprised if it existed already, but a quick google
search was not fruitful.

"mike" wrote in message
...
On 6/24/2012 11:35 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on current probe
jsw

I did exactly the same thing to log my water heater consumption.
That works fine for devices with power factor of 1, like a water
heater.
It can give you a hint about relative consumption, but the actual
power you compute from RMS current * RMS voltage = VA is not real
power (watts) if
your power factor isn't 1. Many devices are .6 or so. Computers,
CFL,
anything with a motor, most electronic stuff. And even your current
number isn't right unless you use a real RMS responding clamp-on
meter.
Most aren't.

You must be new here. R.C.M. is the land of homebrew 3-phase rotary
converters with carefully balanced leg currents. Alt.energy.homepower
is where power factor has to be tediously explained, over and over.

Personally I don't run the big compressor, TIG welder or plasma cutter
often enough to care about 240V power factor. I just read the meter
before and after. And with all the setup and grinding I can stick weld
for hours with 1 KWH of power.

jsw

"mike" wrote in message
...
On 6/24/2012 1:46 PM, Winston wrote:


I think it would be nifty to come up with a power adapter
for the sound card input to log power as compensated for
power factor. Left channel, volts. Right channel amps.
--Winston

Should be very simple.
Download a dual-channel scope program for the sound card.

http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/scope_en

The inputs are AC-coupled because the A/D zero is at half the power
supply voltage, to make it bipolar with a single supply. It's
suggested to use a plug-in card rather than the MOBO one because the
inputs are sensitive to mistakes.

A DC-coupled version:
http://www.daqarta.com/dw_ggnn.htm

jsw

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:23:30 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 24 Jun 2012 20:42:20 GMT, Winston wrote:

(...)

Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

Mine's plastic. The HVAC unit is a Carrier Infinity and is 96%
efficient. The output feels like it's maybe 120F.

Haven't measured mine but I swear you could cook eggs on it.



--Winston

On 6/24/2012 1:42 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:01:42 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

wrote in message
...

(...)

Perhaps I'll put an IR photosensor aimed at the burner. Or a
thermocouple nearby. Haven't decided.

--Winston

I'd put a thermocouple in the flue and capture both timing and heat
loss.

Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

--Winston

To what end?
Unless it's in a space you air condition.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:57:31 -0700, mike wrote:

(Snip tales of heroic economy measures. [Kudos, Mike])

I dunno. SWMBO puts up with a lot of that kind of thing at my house.

(She did finally question the piece of hacksaw blade I use as a
tearing bar to economize on paper towels, though.)

I boosted the sensitivity of three little night lights so that they
would come on when they were *really* needed. The buyback on that
adventure is gonna be more than a couple years. Fun though.

--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...

Haven't measured mine but I swear you could cook eggs on it.
--Winston

You might soon regret that experiment.

jsw

On 24 Jun 2012 23:36:11 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:23:30 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 24 Jun 2012 20:42:20 GMT, Winston wrote:

(...)

Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

Mine's plastic. The HVAC unit is a Carrier Infinity and is 96%
efficient. The output feels like it's maybe 120F.

Haven't measured mine but I swear you could cook eggs on it.



The older furnaces were only capable of sucking 80% of the energy out
of the heat stream. Time for a new box, Winnie.

I have a 1,500sf house in So. OR with 4" of insulation in the attic,
none in the walls, and 12" in the floor (I had it installed 2 years
ago when the vapor barrier and borates were squirted on.) My gas bill
is $58/mo yearround (comfort level billing) at 69F. I'll install new
attic insulation when I get an extra grand I don't need.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:02:43 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...

Haven't measured mine but I swear you could cook eggs on it. --Winston

You might soon regret that experiment.

Wouldn't be the first time an experiment left egg on my face.

--Winston

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:15:19 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

The older furnaces were only capable of sucking 80% of the energy out of
the heat stream. Time for a new box, Winnie.

I couldn't agree more.

I have a 1,500sf house in So. OR with 4" of insulation in the attic,
none in the walls, and 12" in the floor (I had it installed 2 years ago
when the vapor barrier and borates were squirted on.) My gas bill is
$58/mo yearround (comfort level billing) at 69F. I'll install new attic
insulation when I get an extra grand I don't need.

That'll be about the time I do an energy audit.
It'll be interesting to locate all the air leaks.

HooBoy.

--Winston

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:42:18 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/24/2012 1:42 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:01:42 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

wrote in message
...

(...)

Perhaps I'll put an IR photosensor aimed at the burner. Or a
thermocouple nearby. Haven't decided.

--Winston

I'd put a thermocouple in the flue and capture both timing and heat
loss.

Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

--Winston

To what end?
Unless it's in a space you air condition.

Sorta kinda. This is in the garage.

I installed a large fan in the roof to exhaust some of
the stratified air that collected during the summer months
and made the garage quite uncomfortably hot after we had
the roof replaced (even during fairly mild summer weather).

The fan has worked a miracle and the garage is once again useful
during the hottest days and feels pleasantly cool during mild days.

The exhaust flue is common between the water heater and
the space heater. As I mentioned the flue does get fairly hot.
That is a real waste during the summer especially if it means
that the lost heat is causing less - than - ideal combustion gas
evacuation.

--Winston

On 6/24/2012 2:45 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 6/24/2012 11:35 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on current probe
jsw

I did exactly the same thing to log my water heater consumption.
That works fine for devices with power factor of 1, like a water
heater.
It can give you a hint about relative consumption, but the actual
power you compute from RMS current * RMS voltage = VA is not real
power (watts) if
your power factor isn't 1. Many devices are .6 or so. Computers,
CFL,
anything with a motor, most electronic stuff. And even your current
number isn't right unless you use a real RMS responding clamp-on
meter.
Most aren't.

You must be new here. R.C.M. is the land of homebrew 3-phase rotary
converters with carefully balanced leg currents. Alt.energy.homepower
is where power factor has to be tediously explained, over and over.


That brings up a topic near and dear to my heart...Communication.
What is the appropriate level of response when you think you can
correct a misconception?

It's been my experience that much of the discourse, not to be confused
with communication, in the newsgroups is based on serious misconception.

The ratio, signal divided by noise, in the newsgroups approaches zero.
And the previous sentence is a symptom. I started with "signal to noise
ratio",
but immediately recognized that some net cop was gonna argue with the
definition and start a flame war.

When people ask a question, I try to put myself in their shoes,
try to figure out what they really want to know and construct an answer
in a context I think is relevant to their task and that they might
comprehend. That's hard to do in
a half-duplex mode like newsgroups. There's lots of opportunity
for the thread to get sidetracked during the response delay time.
I try to be tactful, but making the point requires some directness.
And the "experts" start piling on before the question is even clarified.

Sometimes, the guy on the other end has a misconception. Or maybe
he just abbreviated the situation. Or maybe it's a typo. Or maybe I
misinterpreted. Or any number of other things.

When somebody sez, "I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on
current probe", what's a rational assumption? Since most people don't
understand power factor, and most clamp-on current probes plugged
into DMM's don't have
any means of phase output even if the DMM does have a serial port, and
you need phase info
to calculate power, should someone respond with a short discourse on
power factor?
It's not just an argument over a term, it's a major error factor.

It matters not that everything you ever need to know has been discussed
over and over somewhere else. The only thing that matters is whether the
OP, or the lurkers, might benefit from a short discourse.

So, if you think you can POLITELY help, should you?

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
That'll be about the time I do an energy audit.
It'll be interesting to locate all the air leaks.

HooBoy.

--Winston

You can find the more serious ones by letting a helium balloon
ballasted to neutral buoyancy float around the house. On a cold day
the air flow will pull it to where air leaks out. It may find
conduction leaks by floating to them across the ceiling and then
dropping down in the colder air, which shrinks it.

Or if your house is like one apartment I lived in, see if the curtains
move on windy days. That place was 45F in the winter, 105F in summer.
Big and cheap, though. That's where I learned how to fix
refrigerators.

Mylar balloons work much better because they don't leak down as
quickly. Rubber balloons need some dampened paper ballast that
evaporates to somewhat counteract the leakage.

jsw

"mike" wrote in message
...
On 6/24/2012 2:45 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
When somebody sez, "I monitored the 240V line current with a
clamp-on current probe", what's a rational assumption? Since most
people don't
understand power factor, and most clamp-on current probes plugged
into DMM's don't have
any means of phase output even if the DMM does have a serial port,
and you need phase info
to calculate power, should someone respond with a short discourse on
power factor?
It's not just an argument over a term, it's a major error factor.

I usually try to restrict the initial posting to a fairly brief
overview and address the questions only if anyone is interested enough
to ask, and someone else hasn't already answered them.

I worked in microwave satcom, but I don't need a Smith chart from a
vector network analyzer to check my water heater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ag...245A_PNA-X.jpg

jsw

Do you run the furnace on heat (which makes a hot flue) while you have the
AC running? If so, please report for psychiatric treatment, soon.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

--Winston

To what end?
Unless it's in a space you air condition.

On 25 Jun 2012 03:59:12 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:15:19 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

The older furnaces were only capable of sucking 80% of the energy out of
the heat stream. Time for a new box, Winnie.

I couldn't agree more.

I have a 1,500sf house in So. OR with 4" of insulation in the attic,
none in the walls, and 12" in the floor (I had it installed 2 years ago
when the vapor barrier and borates were squirted on.) My gas bill is
$58/mo yearround (comfort level billing) at 69F. I'll install new attic
insulation when I get an extra grand I don't need.

That'll be about the time I do an energy audit.
It'll be interesting to locate all the air leaks.

HooBoy.

Lots of utility and remodeling companies are doing those free right
now, with gov't subsidies for the blower door tests. I'm still
decluttering (about $500 via Craigslist so far, $0 from RogueValley
Recyclers, and $0 from the Goodwill), so, when I can see the floors
and walls in most rooms again (sigh), I'll be taking them up on it.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On 25 Jun 2012 04:08:53 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:42:18 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/24/2012 1:42 PM, Winston wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:01:42 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

wrote in message
...

(...)

Perhaps I'll put an IR photosensor aimed at the burner. Or a
thermocouple nearby. Haven't decided.

--Winston

I'd put a thermocouple in the flue and capture both timing and heat
loss.

Yup. That flue does get pretty hot.

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

--Winston

To what end?
Unless it's in a space you air condition.

Sorta kinda. This is in the garage.

I installed a large fan in the roof to exhaust some of
the stratified air that collected during the summer months
and made the garage quite uncomfortably hot after we had
the roof replaced (even during fairly mild summer weather).

Did you have them put on a white roof? Mine's beigy brown, the next
coolest color. Wives are funny about that, though, silly creatures.


The fan has worked a miracle and the garage is once again useful
during the hottest days and feels pleasantly cool during mild days.

Bueno, bwana.


The exhaust flue is common between the water heater and
the space heater. As I mentioned the flue does get fairly hot.
That is a real waste during the summer especially if it means
that the lost heat is causing less - than - ideal combustion gas
evacuation.

Oh, were you talking about your gas water heater flue or the space
heater (furnace, right?) flue? Newer gas water heaters capture a lot
more energy, too, but I'm not sure if their flues are plastic yet. If
my electric bill were high ($48 highest month, $28 lowest) I'd have
gone that route, too. They're a 1-year ROI if you can do most of it
yourself.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:38:02 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
...
That'll be about the time I do an energy audit. It'll be interesting to
locate all the air leaks.

HooBoy.

--Winston

You can find the more serious ones by letting a helium balloon ballasted
to neutral buoyancy float around the house. On a cold day the air flow
will pull it to where air leaks out. It may find conduction leaks by
floating to them across the ceiling and then dropping down in the colder
air, which shrinks it.

Or if your house is like one apartment I lived in, see if the curtains
move on windy days. That place was 45F in the winter, 105F in summer.
Big and cheap, though. That's where I learned how to fix refrigerators.

Mylar balloons work much better because they don't leak down as quickly.
Rubber balloons need some dampened paper ballast that evaporates to
somewhat counteract the leakage.

jsw

'Sounds fun and educational!

Thanks!

--Winston

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 05:40:31 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 25 Jun 2012 03:59:12 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:15:19 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

The older furnaces were only capable of sucking 80% of the energy out
of the heat stream. Time for a new box, Winnie.

I couldn't agree more.

I have a 1,500sf house in So. OR with 4" of insulation in the attic,
none in the walls, and 12" in the floor (I had it installed 2 years
ago when the vapor barrier and borates were squirted on.) My gas bill
is $58/mo yearround (comfort level billing) at 69F. I'll install new
attic insulation when I get an extra grand I don't need.

That'll be about the time I do an energy audit. It'll be interesting to
locate all the air leaks.

HooBoy.

Lots of utility and remodeling companies are doing those free right now,
with gov't subsidies for the blower door tests.

I understand one can use slivered bamboo as a smoke punk to
trace infiltration / exfiltration as well.

I'm still decluttering
(about $500 via Craigslist so far, $0 from RogueValley Recyclers, and $0
from the Goodwill), so, when I can see the floors and walls in most
rooms again (sigh), I'll be taking them up on it.

That is the Eternal Battle for Floorspace.
I am very familiar with that.


--Winston

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:06:29 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 25 Jun 2012 04:08:53 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:42:18 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/24/2012 1:42 PM, Winston wrote:

(...)

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

--Winston

To what end?
Unless it's in a space you air condition.

Sorta kinda. This is in the garage.

I installed a large fan in the roof to exhaust some of the stratified
air that collected during the summer months and made the garage quite
uncomfortably hot after we had the roof replaced (even during fairly
mild summer weather).

Did you have them put on a white roof?

I wasn't consulted. The roof (dark brown) traps much more solar heat than
I would like. Oh Well. It's pretty and that is all that matters.

Mine's beigy brown, the next
coolest color. Wives are funny about that, though, silly creatures.

I'm not about to cast the 'silly' stone.

The fan has worked a miracle and the garage is once again useful during
the hottest days and feels pleasantly cool during mild days.

Bueno, bwana.

The garage shares a large attic 'firewall' with the rest of
the house. This fan thus limits the amount of heat that goes into the
attic from the garage. That combined with the two additional solar fans I
installed in the attic proper, has really cooled the place down during
the warmer months. I Like. A Lot.

The exhaust flue is common between the water heater and the space
heater. As I mentioned the flue does get fairly hot. That is a real
waste during the summer especially if it means that the lost heat is
causing less - than - ideal combustion gas evacuation.

Oh, were you talking about your gas water heater flue or the space
heater (furnace, right?) flue? Newer gas water heaters capture a lot
more energy, too, but I'm not sure if their flues are plastic yet. If my
electric bill were high ($48 highest month, $28 lowest) I'd have gone
that route, too. They're a 1-year ROI if you can do most of it yourself.

Well, I *was* talking about the flue above the water heater that feeds
into a flue shared with the space heater. It's pretty hot.

I'm concerned about that buoyancy thing. CO is nasty stuff.

--Winston

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 03:00:57 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/24/2012 2:45 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 6/24/2012 11:35 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on current probe
jsw

I did exactly the same thing to log my water heater consumption. That
works fine for devices with power factor of 1, like a water heater.
It can give you a hint about relative consumption, but the actual
power you compute from RMS current * RMS voltage = VA is not real
power (watts) if
your power factor isn't 1. Many devices are .6 or so. Computers,
CFL,
anything with a motor, most electronic stuff. And even your current
number isn't right unless you use a real RMS responding clamp-on
meter.
Most aren't.

You must be new here. R.C.M. is the land of homebrew 3-phase rotary
converters with carefully balanced leg currents. Alt.energy.homepower
is where power factor has to be tediously explained, over and over.


That brings up a topic near and dear to my heart...Communication. What
is the appropriate level of response when you think you can correct a
misconception?

It's been my experience that much of the discourse, not to be confused
with communication, in the newsgroups is based on serious misconception.

Yup.

The ratio, signal divided by noise, in the newsgroups approaches zero.
And the previous sentence is a symptom. I started with "signal to noise
ratio",
but immediately recognized that some net cop was gonna argue with the
definition and start a flame war.

When people ask a question, I try to put myself in their shoes, try to
figure out what they really want to know and construct an answer in a
context I think is relevant to their task and that they might
comprehend. That's hard to do in
a half-duplex mode like newsgroups. There's lots of opportunity for the
thread to get sidetracked during the response delay time. I try to be
tactful, but making the point requires some directness. And the
"experts" start piling on before the question is even clarified.

Sometimes, the guy on the other end has a misconception. Or maybe he
just abbreviated the situation. Or maybe it's a typo. Or maybe I
misinterpreted. Or any number of other things.

The magic of USENET is that we can iron out misconceptions using
accessible language and examples in a friendly, conversational
way. Dealing with the noise is worthwhile.

When somebody sez, "I monitored the 240V line current with a clamp-on
current probe", what's a rational assumption? Since most people don't
understand power factor, and most clamp-on current probes plugged into
DMM's don't have
any means of phase output even if the DMM does have a serial port, and
you need phase info
to calculate power, should someone respond with a short discourse on
power factor?

That, and / or a link to a web page that presents the info clearly
and efficiently.

It's not just an argument over a term, it's a major error factor.

Yes. We must be careful about the purpose of our measurements, though.
A clamp-on multimeter can give us a number that represents an upper
limit on the amount of power that a device requires. As you said, a
given device can require far less power than the 'ohms law' numbers
indicate, because of waveform purity and/or phase displacement issues.

Sometimes the 'ohms law' numbers reveal 'good enough' information, (say
to discover the worst-case continuous current going to a branch circuit
for circuit breaker sizing).

As you say, applied to real power calculation, 'ohms law' numbers can be
woefully wrong. Obviously, when determining real power, we must include
PF or we can be sorely mistaken.

It matters not that everything you ever need to know has been discussed
over and over somewhere else. The only thing that matters is whether the
OP, or the lurkers, might benefit from a short discourse.

Also, for folks who uncover the info much later using a search engine.

So, if you think you can POLITELY help, should you?

Certainly. And thanks for asking.


--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:38:02 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:
... helium balloon ...
jsw

'Sounds fun and educational!

--Winston

"Fun" and "Educational" come when you use hydrogen instead, and the
balloon finds the gas stove.

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:33:01 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:38:02 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:
... helium balloon ...
jsw

'Sounds fun and educational!

--Winston

"Fun" and "Educational" come when you use hydrogen instead, and the
balloon finds the gas stove.

May you live in interesting times.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On 25 Jun 2012 13:33:34 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 05:40:31 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 25 Jun 2012 03:59:12 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:15:19 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

The older furnaces were only capable of sucking 80% of the energy out
of the heat stream. Time for a new box, Winnie.

I couldn't agree more.

I have a 1,500sf house in So. OR with 4" of insulation in the attic,
none in the walls, and 12" in the floor (I had it installed 2 years
ago when the vapor barrier and borates were squirted on.) My gas bill
is $58/mo yearround (comfort level billing) at 69F. I'll install new
attic insulation when I get an extra grand I don't need.

That'll be about the time I do an energy audit. It'll be interesting to
locate all the air leaks.

HooBoy.

Lots of utility and remodeling companies are doing those free right now,
with gov't subsidies for the blower door tests.

I understand one can use slivered bamboo as a smoke punk to
trace infiltration / exfiltration as well.

Don't waste your equipment for that, save it for a real good torture,
eh? Use a stick of incense instead. They work fine as punks for the
4th, too.


I'm still decluttering
(about $500 via Craigslist so far, $0 from RogueValley Recyclers, and $0
from the Goodwill), so, when I can see the floors and walls in most
rooms again (sigh), I'll be taking them up on it.

That is the Eternal Battle for Floorspace.
I am very familiar with that.

I'm sure that 94% of us are. Screw that 6% of guys who are efficient.
I'm sure their lives are boring.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On 25 Jun 2012 13:43:58 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:06:29 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

On 25 Jun 2012 04:08:53 GMT, Winston wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:42:18 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/24/2012 1:42 PM, Winston wrote:

(...)

Probably couldn't hurt to replace it with an insulated flue.

--Winston

To what end?
Unless it's in a space you air condition.

Sorta kinda. This is in the garage.

I installed a large fan in the roof to exhaust some of the stratified
air that collected during the summer months and made the garage quite
uncomfortably hot after we had the roof replaced (even during fairly
mild summer weather).

Did you have them put on a white roof?

I wasn't consulted. The roof (dark brown) traps much more solar heat than
I would like. Oh Well. It's pretty and that is all that matters.

Then it's only fair to use HER money to pay the A/C bills, right?
Even if she has to get a parttime job.


Mine's beigy brown, the next
coolest color. Wives are funny about that, though, silly creatures.

I'm not about to cast the 'silly' stone.

I'm unmarried. I can do things like that. /neener


The fan has worked a miracle and the garage is once again useful during
the hottest days and feels pleasantly cool during mild days.

Bueno, bwana.

The garage shares a large attic 'firewall' with the rest of
the house. This fan thus limits the amount of heat that goes into the
attic from the garage. That combined with the two additional solar fans I
installed in the attic proper, has really cooled the place down during
the warmer months. I Like. A Lot.

Time until ROI?


The exhaust flue is common between the water heater and the space
heater. As I mentioned the flue does get fairly hot. That is a real
waste during the summer especially if it means that the lost heat is
causing less - than - ideal combustion gas evacuation.

Oh, were you talking about your gas water heater flue or the space
heater (furnace, right?) flue? Newer gas water heaters capture a lot
more energy, too, but I'm not sure if their flues are plastic yet. If my
electric bill were high ($48 highest month, $28 lowest) I'd have gone
that route, too. They're a 1-year ROI if you can do most of it yourself.

Well, I *was* talking about the flue above the water heater that feeds
into a flue shared with the space heater. It's pretty hot.

Flues are like that. Yeah they are. Well, until you're modernized.

_Here_ is a space heater: http://tinyurl.com/7468jd5
Now spreak engrish, troops!


I'm concerned about that buoyancy thing. CO is nasty stuff.

CO alarms have come way down in price. ($20 at the Borgs) Install one
in your bedroom, below mattress level.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:33:01 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:38:02 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:
... helium balloon ...
jsw

'Sounds fun and educational!

--Winston

"Fun" and "Educational" come when you use hydrogen instead, and the
balloon finds the gas stove.

Ah that is a little beyond my 'fun' threshold.


--Winston

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:21:36 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:


(...)

The garage shares a large attic 'firewall' with the rest of the house.
This fan thus limits the amount of heat that goes into the attic from
the garage. That combined with the two additional solar fans I installed
in the attic proper, has really cooled the place down during the warmer
months. I Like. A Lot.

Time until ROI?

It was almost instant, because it extends the life of the
Incredibly Expensive Roof by several years.

(...)

CO alarms have come way down in price. ($20 at the Borgs) Install one
in your bedroom, below mattress level.

Good idea, except CO is close enough to the relative density of
air that the detector could be equally effective practically anywhere
in the room.

--Winston

I noticed this was an older post and I have never commented on a blog before so not sure if you guys will even see this. Wandering if the fridge thing worked. Also thinking of doing one for are wood kiln but I was thinking of throwing a bucket of water in a mini fridge and dropping a small pond pump in the bucket. Like the ones used in landscaping for water features and then drilling two holes in the side of the fridge and run a 3/8 line from the pump threw the fridge and kiln wall and make a small coil in there with drip pan and drain line and then run the line back in the fridge and dump in the bucket. The kiln tempature is 110-120 usually with 80 percent humidity and the water running threw would be just above freezing. A dehumidifier will run constant and don't last long in those temps so we are going to try it.

On 4/3/2013 7:16 PM, wrote:
I noticed this was an older post and I have never commented on a blog before so not sure if you guys will even see this. Wandering if the fridge thing worked. Also thinking of doing one for are wood kiln but I was thinking of throwing a bucket of water in a mini fridge and dropping a small pond pump in the bucket. Like the ones used in landscaping for water features and then drilling two holes in the side of the fridge and run a 3/8 line from the pump threw the fridge and kiln wall and make a small coil in there with drip pan and drain line and then run the line back in the fridge and dump in the bucket. The kiln tempature is 110-120 usually with 80 percent humidity and the water running threw would be just above freezing. A dehumidifier will run constant and don't last long in those temps so we are going to try it.

Do the math.
Get yourself a calculator and a thermodynamics book.
Calculate the energy cost/latent heat of condensing all that water
using a fridge.

What is your outside air temp/humidity?

Look it all up on the psychrometric chart and you'll probably
find you don't need any refrigeration at all. The curves are so steep
in that area that you get a lot of humidity bang for the temperature
buck.

Just blast the wet air out and bring in fresh air through
a heat exchanger. Google "heat recovery ventilator".
You can recapture most of the energy lost by the condensing
water and temperature change of the air. Compare the cost
of the make-up heat to the cost of other means of dehumidification...
including the make-up heat they require.

Assumes normal temperatures.
If you were in the desert, you wouldn't be needing the kiln at all.

It's critically dependent on all the parameters, but worth
doing the math.

On Apr 4, 3:31*am, mike wrote:
On 4/3/2013 7:16 PM, wrote:

I noticed this was an older post and I have never commented on a blog before so not sure if you guys will even see this. Wandering if the fridge thing worked. Also thinking of doing one for are wood kiln but I was thinking of throwing a bucket of water in a mini fridge and dropping a small pond pump in the bucket. Like the ones used in landscaping for water features and then drilling two holes in the side of the fridge and run a 3/8 line from the pump threw the fridge and kiln wall and make a small coil in there with drip pan and drain line and then run the line back in the fridge and dump in the bucket. The kiln tempature is 110-120 usually with 80 percent humidity and the water running threw would be just above freezing. A dehumidifier will run constant and don't last long in those temps so we are going to try it.

Do the math.
Get yourself a calculator and a thermodynamics book.
Calculate the energy cost/latent heat of condensing all that water
using a fridge.

What is your outside air temp/humidity?

Look it all up on the psychrometric chart and you'll probably
find you don't need any refrigeration at all. *The curves are so steep
in that area that you get a lot of humidity bang for the temperature
buck.

Just blast the wet air out and bring in fresh air through
a heat exchanger.

Even then, this discussion sounds like your trying to hang-on to every
penny. Fridges aren't all that expensive to run. Just leave the
fridge running with the door open; freezer door open even better. The
inside will get frosted up quickly and that represents the
dehumidifying. Actually, you can run 2 or 3 freezers with doors open
in that area, so the place will dehumidify faster. You just have to
empty drip pans and clean out frost more often or put one outside for
a day to defrost.

It didn't work. The fridge will not fit in the space so the lines run threw the walls of are kiln and the fridge. Inside there is probably 40' of line in the kiln and 60' outside which is mostly coiled up in the freezer and fridge dumping back into a bucket of water that recirculates. The problem is the water heats up faster than it is cooling and the water in the fridge is around 60. I own a reclaimed lumber business and need to get are wood kilned before we make our furniture and flooring. Problem for me is they don't make a dehumidifier for these temps without a heater built in which jacks the price of the unit up. Might retry this with a deep freeze freezer before giving up. As long as the cost is lower than $700 per month it will still be profitable to make are own. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

On 4/8/2013 7:29 AM, wrote:
It didn't work. The fridge will not fit in the space so the lines run threw the walls of are kiln and the fridge. Inside there is probably 40' of line in the kiln and 60' outside which is mostly coiled up in the freezer and fridge dumping back into a bucket of water that recirculates. The problem is the water heats up faster than it is cooling and the water in the fridge is around 60. I own a reclaimed lumber business and need to get are wood kilned before we make our furniture and flooring. Problem for me is they don't make a dehumidifier for these temps without a heater built in which jacks the price of the unit up. Might retry this with a deep freeze freezer before giving up. As long as the cost is lower than $700 per month it will still be profitable to make are own. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

Did you get out the psychrometric chart and do the math?
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ps...art-d_249.html

engineeringtoolbox.com has a LOT of useful information.

If you know the temperatures/humidities and the volume of water you
expect to extract per unit time, you can tell how much "thermodynamics"
you need then factor in the efficiencies.

I don't have enough info to do the math, but I'd bet that you can build
a heat exchanger for very low capital cost and low operating cost.
The math may prove me wrong, but I'd bet that the fridge does
more harm than good.

This thread discusses the topic:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/conser...hanger-17.html
Take the time to read the whole thread.

The site has a lot of interesting info in other topics.

The thread is focused on reclaiming heat. Dehumidification is
a side effect to be dealt with. In your case, Dehumidification
is the focus and heat is the side effect. Same problem...same math...
just operating at different points on the psychrometric chart.

The key missing info is how fast you can get the moisture out of the wood
into the air.
I'm guessing that, even at 0 humidity, it still takes time for the
moisture to percolate out of the wood.
If you measured the volume of water being extracted per unit time by the
air and
plotted it as a function of humidity, you'd find that there is a
temperature/humidity that makes an optimum compromise between
energy consumed and the time it takes. And it may change as
the batch dries. Design your air flow
and dehumidification process to do that.

Simple math up front can save you a lot of up-front trial and error
and result in dramatically lower operating costs....maybe...depends
on the (undisclosed) parameters involved.

Here's a 10-second analysis for relatively dry outside air. Someone may
correct me...
Decide the target temperature and humidity inside the kiln
for optimum drying.
Plot that point on the psychrometric chart.
Draw a horizontal line to the dewpoint scale.
The cold side of your heat exchanger has to be colder than
that dew point. Depending on the efficiency of the heat exchanger,
you may want it slightly colder, but too cold just wastes energy.

If you live in a damp climate, the air you take in may already have
a lot of moisture. That can skew the numbers significantly...depends
on the numbers. That works in favor of the fridge solution over the
air-to-air heat exchanger.

I'd bet that outside air is plenty cold...unless you're in the desert...
in which case you just open the doors to the kiln.
You're more likely to have a problem with it freezing up in winter.

Isn't wood drying "big business"? Shouldn't there be lots and lots
of information and commercial equipment dedicated to the subject?

It's very easy to fixate on a "hobby" and divert your particular skills
from their optimum application to your business. Sometimes, just buying
the skills or the product is better for the bottom line.

Start with the math ;-)

Are we having fun yet?