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Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal,
I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
wrote in message
... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric Makes some parts, tap them with a couple different processes and clearances, then put a bolt in them and twist with a torque wrench to see when the threads strip. Use the best compromise between machinability and real world strength requirements. |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
wrote in message ... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:20:11 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: wrote in message .. . To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric Makes some parts, tap them with a couple different processes and clearances, then put a bolt in them and twist with a torque wrench to see when the threads strip. Use the best compromise between machinability and real world strength requirements. I think that's a great idea. I'll ask the customer today for some of the pieces cut from the castings and test them. Thanks, Eric |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:18:09 -0700, "anorton"
wrote: wrote in message .. . To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. Many of the castings I machine do get thread inserts. In fact, that's part of the reason I got some of the jobs. I convinced the customer that I could install the hundreds of heli-coils faster and cheaper than they were doing them. I use a tapping head to install them. But even the parts with thread inserts would benefit from stronger threads. So I'll be using Bob's idea and measuring the pull out strength of cut versus formed threads for each particular alloy that I'm threading. Eric |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
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Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
|
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
wrote in message
... On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:18:09 -0700, "anorton" wrote: wrote in message . .. To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. Many of the castings I machine do get thread inserts. In fact, that's part of the reason I got some of the jobs. I convinced the customer that I could install the hundreds of heli-coils faster and cheaper than they were doing them. *** I use a tapping head to install them. *** Now that is something to remember. I could make an insert tool to install them out of drill stock pretty darn quick too. |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:57:13 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:18:09 -0700, "anorton" wrote: wrote in message ... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. Many of the castings I machine do get thread inserts. In fact, that's part of the reason I got some of the jobs. I convinced the customer that I could install the hundreds of heli-coils faster and cheaper than they were doing them. *** I use a tapping head to install them. *** Now that is something to remember. I could make an insert tool to install them out of drill stock pretty darn quick too. I use a Procunier head because it does not self feed. The install depth of the inserts varies less than .005" Eric |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:06:06 +0100, David Billington
wrote: wrote: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:18:09 -0700, "anorton" wrote: wrote in message ... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. Many of the castings I machine do get thread inserts. In fact, that's part of the reason I got some of the jobs. I convinced the customer that I could install the hundreds of heli-coils faster and cheaper than they were doing them. I use a tapping head to install them. But even the parts with thread inserts would benefit from stronger threads. So I'll be using Bob's idea and measuring the pull out strength of cut versus formed threads for each particular alloy that I'm threading. Eric Possibly you should look at the likes of Keenserts or Timeserts as I believe those provide a stronger installed thread than a heli-coil. It may have been one of those that a company I worked for used in a magnesium alloy casting for a racing gearbox and as it would be dismantled regularly a thread insert was a must, IIRC the inserts used required a more complicated machining than heli-coil and they were intended to be replaceable if they became damaged, also due to the wall thickness the thread in the alloy had a greater diameter and so was stronger. The customer requires helical type screw thread inserts. Eric |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 07:13:43 -0700, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:04:46 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote: On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 06:53:23 -0700, wrote: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:20:11 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message m... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric Makes some parts, tap them with a couple different processes and clearances, then put a bolt in them and twist with a torque wrench to see when the threads strip. Use the best compromise between machinability and real world strength requirements. I think that's a great idea. I'll ask the customer today for some of the pieces cut from the castings and test them. Thanks, Eric Because you wanted someone with experience tapping 356, I didn't respond earlier, but the other issue you mentioned is that there are some different alloys involved. I haven't personally tapped aluminum casting alloys but I know you're going to find some big differences in their ductility and, thus, their response to form-tapping. 356 is moderately ductile for a casting alloy; A-356 is much better. Neither of them will be as good in that department as wrought 6061. The high-silicon casting alloys will be problematic. In other words, if you're going to run some tests, and you're going to be dealing with a variety of alloys, they could respond very differently to form-tapping. Greetings Ed, I spoke with the customer yesterday about test pieces. I will be getting test pieces made from the various alloys I will be tapping. Some bronze alloys along with the aluminum. I'm pretty sure that the 356 alloy will be better off cut rather than formed but I've been surprised before. Bob's good idea of actual pull out torque tests will be put to the test. Eris That kind of practical testing is always a good idea, and there are enough variables involved that predicting results would be tough in any case. It sounds like you have the right plan. BTW, the engineers at Emuge have been helpful to me in the past (10 years ago) in writing articles, and they know their stuff. Maybe you'd want to call them to get some perspective: The testing you're planning sounds like the best idea, however. http://www.emuge.com/taps/ -- Ed Huntress |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
wrote in message
... On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:57:13 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:18:09 -0700, "anorton" wrote: wrote in message m... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. Many of the castings I machine do get thread inserts. In fact, that's part of the reason I got some of the jobs. I convinced the customer that I could install the hundreds of heli-coils faster and cheaper than they were doing them. *** I use a tapping head to install them. *** Now that is something to remember. I could make an insert tool to install them out of drill stock pretty darn quick too. I use a Procunier head because it does not self feed. The install depth of the inserts varies less than .005" I just have a cheap no name tapping head, and the self feed does cause me headaches sometimes. I just can't afford a Procunier head. Still, if I take the time to do a setup properly and set my drill stop with some experimentation I can eliminate most of my troubles. Not convenient for one or two holes, but worth it when I have to do 20-30. I read your comment and thought... a reason to buy another tapping head and another drill press. LOL. |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:28:26 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 07:13:43 -0700, wrote: On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:04:46 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote: On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 06:53:23 -0700, wrote: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:20:11 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message om... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric Makes some parts, tap them with a couple different processes and clearances, then put a bolt in them and twist with a torque wrench to see when the threads strip. Use the best compromise between machinability and real world strength requirements. I think that's a great idea. I'll ask the customer today for some of the pieces cut from the castings and test them. Thanks, Eric Because you wanted someone with experience tapping 356, I didn't respond earlier, but the other issue you mentioned is that there are some different alloys involved. I haven't personally tapped aluminum casting alloys but I know you're going to find some big differences in their ductility and, thus, their response to form-tapping. 356 is moderately ductile for a casting alloy; A-356 is much better. Neither of them will be as good in that department as wrought 6061. The high-silicon casting alloys will be problematic. In other words, if you're going to run some tests, and you're going to be dealing with a variety of alloys, they could respond very differently to form-tapping. Greetings Ed, I spoke with the customer yesterday about test pieces. I will be getting test pieces made from the various alloys I will be tapping. Some bronze alloys along with the aluminum. I'm pretty sure that the 356 alloy will be better off cut rather than formed but I've been surprised before. Bob's good idea of actual pull out torque tests will be put to the test. Eris That kind of practical testing is always a good idea, and there are enough variables involved that predicting results would be tough in any case. It sounds like you have the right plan. BTW, the engineers at Emuge have been helpful to me in the past (10 years ago) in writing articles, and they know their stuff. Maybe you'd want to call them to get some perspective: The testing you're planning sounds like the best idea, however. http://www.emuge.com/taps/ Thanks Ed, I'll give them a try. I've used Emuge taps plenty of times and like them. They do make good taps. Even though I will be relying on my real world tests I'm sure that getting info from the engineers at Emuge will help. Eric |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:01:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:57:13 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:18:09 -0700, "anorton" wrote: wrote in message om... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. Many of the castings I machine do get thread inserts. In fact, that's part of the reason I got some of the jobs. I convinced the customer that I could install the hundreds of heli-coils faster and cheaper than they were doing them. *** I use a tapping head to install them. *** Now that is something to remember. I could make an insert tool to install them out of drill stock pretty darn quick too. I use a Procunier head because it does not self feed. The install depth of the inserts varies less than .005" I just have a cheap no name tapping head, and the self feed does cause me headaches sometimes. I just can't afford a Procunier head. Still, if I take the time to do a setup properly and set my drill stop with some experimentation I can eliminate most of my troubles. Not convenient for one or two holes, but worth it when I have to do 20-30. I read your comment and thought... a reason to buy another tapping head and another drill press. LOL. If you try it you'll like it. I have bought all my Procuniers on ebay. Except the first one I bought. I got that one at a flea market. It was in pieces in a coffee can. The cork lining for the clutch had come off of the aluminum hub. I epoxied it back on and it has worked fine for the last 25 years or so. And the tapping head itself was made before WW2. I never paid more than 60 bucks for one by the way. Eric |
Form tapping sand cast aluminum?
wrote in message
... On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:01:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:57:13 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: wrote in message m... On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:18:09 -0700, "anorton" wrote: wrote in message news:ndc9p7ltge4sidh235bs4d712rnvlhodqi@4ax. com... To all you folks who are actually making parts from metal, I use form taps, AKA roll taps, as much as possible. I use them for not just the easy to tap materials such as 6061 and mild steel. 304 SS, 17-4 SS, 4340 and 4140 steel are metals I have had good luck with. Die cast aluminum alloys too, though I don't know what specific alloys. I have also tapped sand cast aluminum parts but only a few times and I don't know how well the threads held up. But now I'm doing a lot more sand cast aluminum parts that are various alloys, 356 being one of them. I would like to form tap all the cast parts and I'm looking for advice from anyone here who hasreal world experience with sand cast aluminum parts that have had form tapped holes. I want to give the customer the best threads and even though formed threads are usually better I know that sometimes the formed material can become brittle from the forming operation leading to weaker threads. I have contacted a couple tap makers with this question but they have not given me any information beyond saying that I need to determine what's best. Thanks, Eric If thread strength and durability in aluminum is really an important issue, you might want to ask your customer to modify the design to use helicoils. Many of the castings I machine do get thread inserts. In fact, that's part of the reason I got some of the jobs. I convinced the customer that I could install the hundreds of heli-coils faster and cheaper than they were doing them. *** I use a tapping head to install them. *** Now that is something to remember. I could make an insert tool to install them out of drill stock pretty darn quick too. I use a Procunier head because it does not self feed. The install depth of the inserts varies less than .005" I just have a cheap no name tapping head, and the self feed does cause me headaches sometimes. I just can't afford a Procunier head. Still, if I take the time to do a setup properly and set my drill stop with some experimentation I can eliminate most of my troubles. Not convenient for one or two holes, but worth it when I have to do 20-30. I read your comment and thought... a reason to buy another tapping head and another drill press. LOL. If you try it you'll like it. I have bought all my Procuniers on ebay. Except the first one I bought. I got that one at a flea market. It was in pieces in a coffee can. The cork lining for the clutch had come off of the aluminum hub. I epoxied it back on and it has worked fine for the last 25 years or so. And the tapping head itself was made before WW2. I never paid more than 60 bucks for one by the way. Eric You know, my dad has an electronic variable speed reversible drill press he bought from Sears atleast 35 years ago. I've often thought if I had that I could make a simple spring centering lockup tapping head without all those fancy internal gears. I always thought it was "cheap" and light duty, but when I asked he sais the only thing he ever had to do to it was replace the speed control pot when I broke off the shaft as a kid. |
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