Ignoramus15658 wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Since the machine is over 1000 miles away, it's all rather pointless
for so many of you to keep harping on how I should do things.

You're the one harping on us how we should revive the antique control
and live with it's tremendous limitations rather than upgrade it to a
modern control.

Exactly. Both Pete and I have machines based on modern PC controls, so
we speak out of actual knowledge.

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Pete, you will be VERY happy if you come across a Bridgeport Interact
sized machine. But you likely will need to use a servo based control
system.

I can look for one for you and let you know if I come across anything.

i

It would be great if you could find one for me, you certainly have the
knack for finding them, even a small VMC would be nice if the price was
right. The Kitamura Mycenter 1s I used to work on were a nice size to
fit a larger home shop. I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

DoN. Nichols wrote:

(...)

I think that I posted this here before, and I think that you saw it
before too. FWIW, I've found a place which has replacements for all the
gears in that thing *except* the one which I made. :-)

How much do you charge them for the gear you make?



--Winston

Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

Saturday morning I returned from frozen Chicago. It was 49 deg. at
O'Hare on Friday.

+49 F, yes?

--Winston -- Visited Rochester, Minnesota. Once.

Ignoramus15658 wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Since the machine is over 1000 miles away, it's all rather pointless
for so many of you to keep harping on how I should do things.

You're the one harping on us how we should revive the antique control
and live with it's tremendous limitations rather than upgrade it to a
modern control.

Exactly. Both Pete and I have machines based on modern PC controls, so
we speak out of actual knowledge.

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Pete, you will be VERY happy if you come across a Bridgeport Interact
sized machine. But you likely will need to use a servo based control
system.

I can look for one for you and let you know if I come across anything.

i

It would be great if you could find one for me, you certainly have the
knack for finding them, even a small VMC would be nice if the price was
right. The Kitamura Mycenter 1s I used to work on were a nice size to
fit a larger home shop. I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message news:4f41118c$0$2065

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Which frozen Northeast? It's 45F outside.

jsw

It's been around 60F here, with a few 70F days. 70F is my bitch
threshold.

Ignoramus15658 wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Since the machine is over 1000 miles away, it's all rather pointless
for so many of you to keep harping on how I should do things.

You're the one harping on us how we should revive the antique control
and live with it's tremendous limitations rather than upgrade it to a
modern control.

Exactly. Both Pete and I have machines based on modern PC controls, so
we speak out of actual knowledge.

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Pete, you will be VERY happy if you come across a Bridgeport Interact
sized machine. But you likely will need to use a servo based control
system.

I can look for one for you and let you know if I come across anything.

i

This might come through a few times, or not at all *sigh* NEWS server
issues...


It would be great if you could find one for me, you certainly have the
knack for finding them, even a small VMC would be nice if the price was
right. The Kitamura Mycenter 1s I used to work on were a nice size to
fit a larger home shop. I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:42:36 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

Saturday morning I returned from frozen Chicago. It was 49 deg. at
O'Hare on Friday.

+49 F, yes?

--Winston -- Visited Rochester, Minnesota. Once.

I sure hope so. Otherwise, I have a serious medical problem. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4f41835d$0$21187
:

I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

You need to review your research. From all I can tell, Mach2 is a
proprietary version of EMC, and appeared well after EMC first came out.

Lloyd

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus15658 wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Since the machine is over 1000 miles away, it's all rather pointless
for so many of you to keep harping on how I should do things.

You're the one harping on us how we should revive the antique control
and live with it's tremendous limitations rather than upgrade it to a
modern control.

Exactly. Both Pete and I have machines based on modern PC controls, so
we speak out of actual knowledge.

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Pete, you will be VERY happy if you come across a Bridgeport Interact
sized machine. But you likely will need to use a servo based control
system.

I can look for one for you and let you know if I come across anything.

i

This might come through a few times, or not at all *sigh* NEWS server
issues...


It would be great if you could find one for me, you certainly have the
knack for finding them, even a small VMC would be nice if the price was
right. The Kitamura Mycenter 1s I used to work on were a nice size to
fit a larger home shop. I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

Got it...

i

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:24:50 -0600, Ignoramus15658
wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus15658 wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Since the machine is over 1000 miles away, it's all rather pointless
for so many of you to keep harping on how I should do things.

You're the one harping on us how we should revive the antique control
and live with it's tremendous limitations rather than upgrade it to a
modern control.

Exactly. Both Pete and I have machines based on modern PC controls, so
we speak out of actual knowledge.

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Pete, you will be VERY happy if you come across a Bridgeport Interact
sized machine. But you likely will need to use a servo based control
system.

I can look for one for you and let you know if I come across anything.

i

This might come through a few times, or not at all *sigh* NEWS server
issues...


It would be great if you could find one for me, you certainly have the
knack for finding them, even a small VMC would be nice if the price was
right. The Kitamura Mycenter 1s I used to work on were a nice size to
fit a larger home shop. I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

Got it...

i

You guys should see what I was watching over the past few days. Eleven
axes; you set the pallet changer to load on Tuesdays, and you ship
parts with around 50 machined features, on five sides, on Thursdays.
Complete SPC reports are packed with each carton of parts. No lights
are needed in the shop. g

--
Ed Huntress

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4f41835d$0$21187
:

I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

You need to review your research. From all I can tell, Mach2 is a
proprietary version of EMC, and appeared well after EMC first came out.

Lloyd

EMC was originally a NIST project / product and is open source. MACH2 is
based on EMC ported to a windows platform and with a much improved user
interface. MACH2 predates EMC2 by quite a bit, EMC2 was being planned
when I was testing EMC vs. MACH2. EMC2 fixed the bad UI in EMC and now
it is pretty comparable to MACH3 (current version, MACH2 is old) as far
as the UI and overall ease of use as far as I can tell without having
done a shoot-out between them.

Ed Huntress wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:24:50 -0600, Ignoramus15658
wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus15658 wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Since the machine is over 1000 miles away, it's all rather pointless
for so many of you to keep harping on how I should do things.

You're the one harping on us how we should revive the antique control
and live with it's tremendous limitations rather than upgrade it to a
modern control.

Exactly. Both Pete and I have machines based on modern PC controls, so
we speak out of actual knowledge.

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Pete, you will be VERY happy if you come across a Bridgeport Interact
sized machine. But you likely will need to use a servo based control
system.

I can look for one for you and let you know if I come across anything.

i

This might come through a few times, or not at all *sigh* NEWS server
issues...


It would be great if you could find one for me, you certainly have the
knack for finding them, even a small VMC would be nice if the price was
right. The Kitamura Mycenter 1s I used to work on were a nice size to
fit a larger home shop. I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

Got it...

i

You guys should see what I was watching over the past few days. Eleven
axes; you set the pallet changer to load on Tuesdays, and you ship
parts with around 50 machined features, on five sides, on Thursdays.
Complete SPC reports are packed with each carton of parts. No lights
are needed in the shop. g

With what it costs, I'm sure you can't afford the lights anyway...

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:43:31 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ed Huntress wrote:

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:24:50 -0600, Ignoramus15658
wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus15658 wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Since the machine is over 1000 miles away, it's all rather pointless
for so many of you to keep harping on how I should do things.

You're the one harping on us how we should revive the antique control
and live with it's tremendous limitations rather than upgrade it to a
modern control.

Exactly. Both Pete and I have machines based on modern PC controls, so
we speak out of actual knowledge.

At any rate, in April or so I will be doing another cross country trip
up to the frozen northeast, and before I go I will search around to see
if there is a similarly good deal along the way I can pickup to retrofit
for my shop.

Pete, you will be VERY happy if you come across a Bridgeport Interact
sized machine. But you likely will need to use a servo based control
system.

I can look for one for you and let you know if I come across anything.

i

This might come through a few times, or not at all *sigh* NEWS server
issues...


It would be great if you could find one for me, you certainly have the
knack for finding them, even a small VMC would be nice if the price was
right. The Kitamura Mycenter 1s I used to work on were a nice size to
fit a larger home shop. I have no problem running EMC2 for a retrofit,
it didn't exist when I did my CNC shoot-out between EMC and MACH2, if it
had I may have gone with EMC2.

Got it...

i

You guys should see what I was watching over the past few days. Eleven
axes; you set the pallet changer to load on Tuesdays, and you ship
parts with around 50 machined features, on five sides, on Thursdays.
Complete SPC reports are packed with each carton of parts. No lights
are needed in the shop. g

With what it costs, I'm sure you can't afford the lights anyway...

Not as bad as I thought, actually. This one was around $350,000, and
it replaces at least three or four conventional CNCs. And that
includes the loading/unloading robotics.

This machine is not unique, BTW. I just wrote an article about similar
machines from Mazak, Okuma, and others. This is a big part of
metalcutting's future.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2012-02-19, Winston wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:

(...)

I think that I posted this here before, and I think that you saw it
before too. FWIW, I've found a place which has replacements for all the
gears in that thing *except* the one which I made. :-)

How much do you charge them for the gear you make?



Hmmm ... a thought, if I made myself a broach to make the
double-D hole in the center of the hub. I guess that I should look at
what they charge for the NOS ones which they have. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:42:36 -0800,
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

Saturday morning I returned from frozen Chicago. It was 49 deg. at
O'Hare on Friday.

+49 F, yes?

--Winston-- Visited Rochester, Minnesota. Once.

I sure hope so. Otherwise, I have a serious medical problem. d8-)



--Winston

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4f41b3a9$0$21115
:

EMC was originally a NIST project / product and is open source. MACH2 is
based on EMC ported to a windows platform and with a much improved user
interface. MACH2 predates EMC2 by quite a bit, EMC2 was being planned
when I was testing EMC vs. MACH2. EMC2 fixed the bad UI in EMC and now


Sorry. I missed the "2". Yes.

Lloyd

Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-02-19, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2012-02-18, Michael A. Terrell ? wrote:

[ ... ]

It depends on the old controller. If I have a mill, I want it
to *use* it, not to have it serve as a collector's item. And given the
limitations in the old BOSS-3 through BOSS-6 controllers, the linuxCNC
(was EMC2) does so much more, and does it so much more efficiently, that
the upgrade is hard to resist.


It's a lot easier to resist when you are in poor health, and have
very limited funds.

O.K. But with hamfest material for the computer parts (e.g. a
nice rack-mount chassis with filtered airflow) it is less expensive.
And replacing the CPU in the old LSI-11 controller for my BOSS-3 did not
fix it -- nor did replacing any of the other related boards. It had a
serious case of electronic Altzheimer's -- within fifteen to thirty
seconds after a reset, it would lose track of what it was doing. Power
supply voltages all checked out fine. Connectors checked out fine. The
only thing left was the rather custom backplane -- one Q-bus slot for
the four-wide version of the LSI-11, and four custom Bridgeport slots.
I was never able to find where the problem was. So, I opted to go for
th e EMC2 package (at the time), and while I was about it, I opted to
change from steppers to servos -- and that is where I am now hanging,
waiting to weld up a replacement mount for the Y-axis servo motor. (At
least I now have welding capability, so it can progress once the weather
is better for outdoor TIG welding. (The servo motors are longer than
the steppers, and won't fit into the cavity in the knee which clears the
stepper.

However, I spent quite a bit of time making a gear to repair a
Tektronix 7000 series oscilloscope plugin, just to make it work again.
Check out:

?http://www.d-and-d.com/PROJECTS/TEK-Gear/index.html?

I think that I posted this here before, and I think that you saw it
before too. FWIW, I've found a place which has replacements for all the
gears in that thing *except* the one which I made. :-)


Yes, you did a good job. You should offer those gears on Ebay.

One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without the old
hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking at
broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving it
up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?

Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then pushing
or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole profile. Each
cutter step of the broach will progressively start from the pilot hole
round diameter and expand out a few thousandths towards the final hole
shape. This is why specialty broaches are long and expensive, every
cutter stage is a different profile.

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:06:59 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without the old
hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking at
broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving it
up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?

Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then pushing
or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole profile. Each
cutter step of the broach will progressively start from the pilot hole
round diameter and expand out a few thousandths towards the final hole
shape. This is why specialty broaches are long and expensive, every
cutter stage is a different profile.

Thanks for the info, Pete. Broaches are almost as pricy as brooches.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:37:41 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


O.K. But with hamfest material for the computer parts (e.g. a
nice rack-mount chassis with filtered airflow) it is less expensive.


Hamfests around here are useless, unless you need microphone or power
connectors for imported radios or overpriced junk. I gave up trying to
sell parts at them about 15 years ago, since all they wanted was cheap
vacuum tubes. I had one 'ham' screaming and cursing at me for selling
some 25' 25 conductor cables with a DB 25 on one end. He was yelling,
"The day I can no longer buy ready made cables is the day I give up Ham
Radio!"

Ive found far far too many hams to be marginally stable. Unfortunately.

Gunner, one time K8LJS


--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:06:59 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without the old
hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking at
broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving it
up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?

Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then pushing
or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole profile. Each
cutter step of the broach will progressively start from the pilot hole
round diameter and expand out a few thousandths towards the final hole
shape. This is why specialty broaches are long and expensive, every
cutter stage is a different profile.

Thanks for the info, Pete. Broaches are almost as pricy as brooches.

Well, specialty ones are. Ordinary simple profile ones like keyway
broaches aren't that expensive.

Larry Jaques wrote:

Don, how are double-D holes made?


Greenlee makes, or made a double D punch to cut holes for standard
duplex outlets. They also had a 1/2" D punch for fuseholders.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 04:37:41 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


O.K. But with hamfest material for the computer parts (e.g. a
nice rack-mount chassis with filtered airflow) it is less expensive.


Hamfests around here are useless, unless you need microphone or power
connectors for imported radios or overpriced junk. I gave up trying to
sell parts at them about 15 years ago, since all they wanted was cheap
vacuum tubes. I had one 'ham' screaming and cursing at me for selling
some 25' 25 conductor cables with a DB 25 on one end. He was yelling,
"The day I can no longer buy ready made cables is the day I give up Ham
Radio!"

Ive found far far too many hams to be marginally stable. Unfortunately.

Gunner, one time K8LJS


What do you expect from the type who lives mostly on warm Mt Dew and
stale Pizza? They only come out of their shack to pay their bills or
fix yet another failed antenna . ANy time you see more than a few, they
are trying to buy the latest Chinese rig for 25 cents from another
cheapskate at a hamfest. ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Ig,

When you bought the PICO PPMC controller, did you get the "full monte" 4-
axis system with backplane, power supply, et al?

Assuming you had 4 axes of control and input, I recall your adding the
rotary table. So, how did you then also handle the 5th "axis" of the
spindle encoder?

Lloyd

On 2012-02-20, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ig,

When you bought the PICO PPMC controller, did you get the "full monte" 4-
axis system with backplane, power supply, et al?

Yes. And later I bought one more board to have 8 axes.

Assuming you had 4 axes of control and input, I recall your adding the
rotary table. So, how did you then also handle the 5th "axis" of the
spindle encoder?

By adding one more board. It was actually straightforward, just buy a
board and plug it into the motherboard. However, my parallel port
could not keep up, which took a while to diagnose with Jon's help, and
I bought a different parallel port card. They are not created equal,
as it turns out.

i

Pete C. Inscribed thus:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:06:59 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to
complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without
the old hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking
at broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it
as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving
it up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?

Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then
pushing or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole
profile. Each cutter step of the broach will progressively start
from the pilot hole round diameter and expand out a few thousandths
towards the final hole shape. This is why specialty broaches are
long and expensive, every cutter stage is a different profile.

Thanks for the info, Pete. Broaches are almost as pricy as brooches.

Well, specialty ones are. Ordinary simple profile ones like keyway
broaches aren't that expensive.

I've used square and round files as simple broaches before now.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

"Ignoramus22251" wrote in message

By adding one more board. It was actually straightforward, just buy a
board and plug it into the motherboard. However, my parallel port
could not keep up, which took a while to diagnose with Jon's help, and
I bought a different parallel port card. They are not created equal,
as it turns out.
i

When I was using the printer port for general purpose I/O I found that its
motherboard hardware registers have a one microsecond response time to keep
the data rate on the cable within spec limits, even though the rest of the
address space may respond in a few nanoseconds. I didn't check expansion
cards.

jsw

Baron wrote:

Pete C. Inscribed thus:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:06:59 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to
complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without
the old hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking
at broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it
as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving
it up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?

Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then
pushing or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole
profile. Each cutter step of the broach will progressively start
from the pilot hole round diameter and expand out a few thousandths
towards the final hole shape. This is why specialty broaches are
long and expensive, every cutter stage is a different profile.

Thanks for the info, Pete. Broaches are almost as pricy as brooches.

Well, specialty ones are. Ordinary simple profile ones like keyway
broaches aren't that expensive.

I've used square and round files as simple broaches before now.

Sorta, kinda. Broaches are precise profiled cutters that complete the
opening from the pilot hole to the finished dimensions in a single pass
generally. Rather specialized and efficient.

On 2012-02-20, Pete C. wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without the old
hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking at
broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving it
up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?

I seem to have missed the original of this, so I'll reply to the
reply.

In the case of the original Tektronix gear, the hole was made by
casting the hub to form it. The hub was made of Zamac (pot metal), and
it had a taper on the outside to make it easier to get out of the mould.
Broaches are expensive and wear, while Zamac moulds are relatively cheap
and last a *long* time. Especially since the Zamac hub was used to cast
a plastic gear around, instead of the brass one which I made.

However, (below is the description of how to use them. To
*make* one, I would have to start with some drill rod, turn it (between
centers) to a little over the final OD, mill a pair of flats at 180
degree separation to get the double-D shape, then turn a taper on the
whole thing from full dimension at one end to a round pilot at the other
end which just fits the starting hole (a little larger than the
across-flats dimension). Then plunge an angled cutter into the shank at
regular intervals to provide a sawtooth wave profile. Then take it out,
go to a heat treating oven, quench to harden, heat again to draw the
temper to something strong enough to hold an edge, but not so brittle
that it will break when you look at it. Then back to the lathe, cover
the ways with oil soaked newspaper to protect them, and mount a toolpost
grinder, and use that to take each step down to the proper diameter and
clearance angle, and you finally have a broach which can be used as
below to broach the D-shaped hole.

I have a collection of commercially made broaches, but they are
all either square or hex -- no Double-D ones. And I've never *made*
one, just studied what I have to tell me how to make one should I really
need to do so.

Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then pushing
or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole profile. Each
cutter step of the broach will progressively start from the pilot hole
round diameter and expand out a few thousandths towards the final hole
shape. This is why specialty broaches are long and expensive, every
cutter stage is a different profile.

Yes -- and you need a long travel arbor press (or something
else) to drive the broach. And care to make sure that the driving force
is on axis so you don't bend and snap the broach. (Better are the draw
type, but they require a different style of driver -- ideally hydraulic,
I believe.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2012-02-20, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Don, how are double-D holes made?


Greenlee makes, or made a double D punch to cut holes for standard
duplex outlets. They also had a 1/2" D punch for fuseholders.

Yes -- I have one of the latter -- along with a 15/32" keyed one
for toggle switch mounting.

But those only are useful in relatively thin metal panels. I
found that in mild steel, 16 Ga hot-rolled (which is very close to 1/16"
unlike all the other gauges which don't match up to anything) was pretty
much the maximum that I would risk using my keyed one in. I've used it
up to 1/8" for aluminum panels, but steel is another thing. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2012-02-20, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Don, how are double-D holes made?


Greenlee makes, or made a double D punch to cut holes for standard
duplex outlets. They also had a 1/2" D punch for fuseholders.

Yes -- I have one of the latter -- along with a 15/32" keyed one
for toggle switch mounting.

But those only are useful in relatively thin metal panels. I
found that in mild steel, 16 Ga hot-rolled (which is very close to 1/16"
unlike all the other gauges which don't match up to anything) was pretty
much the maximum that I would risk using my keyed one in. I've used it
up to 1/8" for aluminum panels, but steel is another thing. :-)


I had both, and about another dozen stolen from my shop. It would
cost about $1500 to replace them today. One of them was $541 the last
time I had the nerve to look.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On 21 Feb 2012 01:40:37 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-02-20, Pete C. wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without the old
hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking at
broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving it
up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?

I seem to have missed the original of this, so I'll reply to the
reply.

In the case of the original Tektronix gear, the hole was made by
casting the hub to form it. The hub was made of Zamac (pot metal), and
it had a taper on the outside to make it easier to get out of the mould.
Broaches are expensive and wear, while Zamac moulds are relatively cheap
and last a *long* time. Especially since the Zamac hub was used to cast
a plastic gear around, instead of the brass one which I made.

However, (below is the description of how to use them. To
*make* one, I would have to start with some drill rod, turn it (between
centers) to a little over the final OD, mill a pair of flats at 180
degree separation to get the double-D shape, then turn a taper on the
whole thing from full dimension at one end to a round pilot at the other
end which just fits the starting hole (a little larger than the
across-flats dimension). Then plunge an angled cutter into the shank at
regular intervals to provide a sawtooth wave profile. Then take it out,
go to a heat treating oven, quench to harden, heat again to draw the
temper to something strong enough to hold an edge, but not so brittle
that it will break when you look at it. Then back to the lathe, cover
the ways with oil soaked newspaper to protect them, and mount a toolpost
grinder, and use that to take each step down to the proper diameter and
clearance angle, and you finally have a broach which can be used as
below to broach the D-shaped hole.

I have a collection of commercially made broaches, but they are
all either square or hex -- no Double-D ones. And I've never *made*
one, just studied what I have to tell me how to make one should I really
need to do so.

Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then pushing
or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole profile. Each
cutter step of the broach will progressively start from the pilot hole
round diameter and expand out a few thousandths towards the final hole
shape. This is why specialty broaches are long and expensive, every
cutter stage is a different profile.

Yes -- and you need a long travel arbor press (or something
else) to drive the broach. And care to make sure that the driving force
is on axis so you don't bend and snap the broach. (Better are the draw
type, but they require a different style of driver -- ideally hydraulic,
I believe.)

Thanks, DoN. Most informative.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer

On 21 Feb 2012 01:45:00 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-02-20, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Don, how are double-D holes made?


Greenlee makes, or made a double D punch to cut holes for standard
duplex outlets. They also had a 1/2" D punch for fuseholders.

Yes -- I have one of the latter -- along with a 15/32" keyed one
for toggle switch mounting.

But those only are useful in relatively thin metal panels. I
found that in mild steel, 16 Ga hot-rolled (which is very close to 1/16"
unlike all the other gauges which don't match up to anything) was pretty
much the maximum that I would risk using my keyed one in. I've used it
up to 1/8" for aluminum panels, but steel is another thing. :-)

I like the double-d config used on bimetal hole saws.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer

SNIP
Yes -- and you need a long travel arbor press (or something
else) to drive the broach. And care to make sure that the driving force
is on axis so you don't bend and snap the broach. (Better are the draw
type, but they require a different style of driver -- ideally hydraulic,
I believe.)

Enjoy,
DoN.
Gretings DoN,
Regarding broaching using an arbor press, I have broached uncounted
keyways using arbor presses. Even with a good one it's possible for
the broach to start cutting at an angle. The method that has worked
best for me over the years is to start the broach, relieve the
pressure on the broach to let it spring back if it wants to, start
pushing on it again, relieve the pressure again, and the broach all
the way through. Unless it's a long broach. Then I might repeat the
process a few more times. Most of the time the broach will not spring
back into the guide bushing a noticeable amount, but sometimes it will
and thats when you know you just avoided a scrapped part or a broken
broach.
Eric

wrote in message
...
...
Regarding broaching using an arbor press, I have broached uncounted
keyways using arbor presses. Even with a good one it's possible for
the broach to start cutting at an angle. The method that has worked
best for me over the years is to start the broach, relieve the
pressure on the broach to let it spring back if it wants to, start
pushing on it again, relieve the pressure again, and the broach all
the way through. Unless it's a long broach. Then I might repeat the
process a few more times. Most of the time the broach will not
spring
back into the guide bushing a noticeable amount, but sometimes it
will
and thats when you know you just avoided a scrapped part or a broken
broach.
Eric

That has been my experience with an Enco arbor press too.

The unhardened drill-rod broach at lower right survived passes through
two die-cast pulleys, though it bend slightly on the second one.
https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...65927027495682
The chip grooves are barely large enough and pack solid with chips. I
had planned to harden it after a trial and grind them wider with a
cutoff wheel to sharpen it, however the first test sample worked well
enough to use. The step size of 0.005" (0.010 dia) is OK but I'd make
it a little less for the next one. My 3/16 keyway broach steps 0.004"
per tooth.

I would mill the slot in the gear to width and centerline diameter,
then make a broach to circularize the ends, with a snug-fitting pilot
section to guide it.

The effort to cut the gear might justify making a guide, perhaps a cup
and lid to align the gear and broach. You might find a pipe cap and
plug the right size if you don't have large diameter round stock. You
could turn a concentric clamping surface on the cap's OD by mounting
it on a chucked tap or brass pipe nipple.

The guide could combine a longer slot of the right width and a shallow
recess of the pilot's diameter to align the broach in both axes. Cut
the slot and recess into the base of the cup half way in from opposite
sides. The lid keeps the broach from tilting.

jsw

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2012-02-20, Pete C. wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012 04:20:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


[ ... ]


One problem -- I need the hub out of the failed one to complete
it. Unless I make myself a double-D broach to make them without the old
hub.

Don, how are double-D holes made? I just spent 5 minutes looking at
broachmaker sites and they don't have many pics. One listed it as a
round shape. Do they drill a hole and fit the broach in, moving it
up and down across an axis to cut the slot, or what?


I seem to have missed the original of this, so I'll reply to the
reply.

In the case of the original Tektronix gear, the hole was made by
casting the hub to form it. The hub was made of Zamac (pot metal), and
it had a taper on the outside to make it easier to get out of the mould.
Broaches are expensive and wear, while Zamac moulds are relatively cheap
and last a *long* time. Especially since the Zamac hub was used to cast
a plastic gear around, instead of the brass one which I made.

However, (below is the description of how to use them. To
*make* one, I would have to start with some drill rod, turn it (between
centers) to a little over the final OD, mill a pair of flats at 180
degree separation to get the double-D shape, then turn a taper on the
whole thing from full dimension at one end to a round pilot at the other
end which just fits the starting hole (a little larger than the
across-flats dimension). Then plunge an angled cutter into the shank at
regular intervals to provide a sawtooth wave profile. Then take it out,
go to a heat treating oven, quench to harden, heat again to draw the
temper to something strong enough to hold an edge, but not so brittle
that it will break when you look at it. Then back to the lathe, cover
the ways with oil soaked newspaper to protect them, and mount a toolpost
grinder, and use that to take each step down to the proper diameter and
clearance angle, and you finally have a broach which can be used as
below to broach the D-shaped hole.


That's basically what I did to make a broach of this form to adapt a
Pegler tap stem to a different knob a few year ago. The minor OD was
5.6mm and the major one 7mm and did that in 8 stages over 40mm. As I
have a DRO on the lathe I didn't cut the taper you mention but rather
went straight to cutting the stages and the back clearance angle, I also
didn't leave it over size for final grinding but that would depend on
the accuracy required . After hardening and tempering I touched up the
sides slightly with a stone and it worked very well in brass for the few
I needed to do. All in all it wasn't a very time consuming thing to make
and was the first multi stage broach I've done, I had previously made a
few to cut internal serrations in blind holes, again for tap adapters.

I have a collection of commercially made broaches, but they are
all either square or hex -- no Double-D ones. And I've never *made*
one, just studied what I have to tell me how to make one should I really
need to do so.


Like most broaching, it will be drilling a pilot hole and then pushing
or pulling the broach through to finish the full hole profile. Each
cutter step of the broach will progressively start from the pilot hole
round diameter and expand out a few thousandths towards the final hole
shape. This is why specialty broaches are long and expensive, every
cutter stage is a different profile.


Yes -- and you need a long travel arbor press (or something
else) to drive the broach. And care to make sure that the driving force
is on axis so you don't bend and snap the broach. (Better are the draw
type, but they require a different style of driver -- ideally hydraulic,
I believe.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

"David Billington" wrote

...As I have a DRO on the lathe I didn't cut the taper you mention
but rather went straight to cutting the stages and the back
clearance angle, I also didn't leave it over size for final grinding
but that would depend on the accuracy required .

The broach I made has no back clearance. I think the press fit guides
it better.

jsw

wrote:

SNIP
Yes -- and you need a long travel arbor press (or something
else) to drive the broach. And care to make sure that the driving force
is on axis so you don't bend and snap the broach. (Better are the draw
type, but they require a different style of driver -- ideally hydraulic,
I believe.)

Enjoy,
DoN.
Gretings DoN,
Regarding broaching using an arbor press, I have broached uncounted
keyways using arbor presses. Even with a good one it's possible for
the broach to start cutting at an angle. The method that has worked
best for me over the years is to start the broach, relieve the
pressure on the broach to let it spring back if it wants to, start
pushing on it again, relieve the pressure again, and the broach all
the way through. Unless it's a long broach. Then I might repeat the
process a few more times. Most of the time the broach will not spring
back into the guide bushing a noticeable amount, but sometimes it will
and thats when you know you just avoided a scrapped part or a broken
broach.
Eric

Is that using the guide bushings and shims that come in keyway broach
sets?

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...

wrote:

...Even with a good one it's possible for
the broach to start cutting at an angle. ...
Eric

Is that using the guide bushings and shims that come in keyway
broach
sets?

How would you broach a keyway without them?

jsw

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:27:20 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

SNIP
Yes -- and you need a long travel arbor press (or something
else) to drive the broach. And care to make sure that the driving force
is on axis so you don't bend and snap the broach. (Better are the draw
type, but they require a different style of driver -- ideally hydraulic,
I believe.)

Enjoy,
DoN.
Gretings DoN,
Regarding broaching using an arbor press, I have broached uncounted
keyways using arbor presses. Even with a good one it's possible for
the broach to start cutting at an angle. The method that has worked
best for me over the years is to start the broach, relieve the
pressure on the broach to let it spring back if it wants to, start
pushing on it again, relieve the pressure again, and the broach all
the way through. Unless it's a long broach. Then I might repeat the
process a few more times. Most of the time the broach will not spring
back into the guide bushing a noticeable amount, but sometimes it will
and thats when you know you just avoided a scrapped part or a broken
broach.
Eric

Is that using the guide bushings and shims that come in keyway broach
sets?
Yes. It may seem odd that a broach can start cutting at an angle but
there is not that much support for the broach when first starting the
cut. And if there is a little play in the arbor press, and there
always is, this play can be magnified by the length of the broach. So
I have found that relieving the presure on the broach lets it spring
back into position. Once it's in the work a ways it will cut straight.
By the way, I have made several bushings for custom bores. Odd
diameter compared to the broach size, tapered bores, etc.
Eric

On 2012-02-21, wrote:
SNIP
Yes -- and you need a long travel arbor press (or something
else) to drive the broach. And care to make sure that the driving force
is on axis so you don't bend and snap the broach. (Better are the draw
type, but they require a different style of driver -- ideally hydraulic,
I believe.)

Enjoy,
DoN.
Gretings DoN,
Regarding broaching using an arbor press, I have broached uncounted
keyways using arbor presses. Even with a good one it's possible for
the broach to start cutting at an angle. The method that has worked
best for me over the years is to start the broach, relieve the
pressure on the broach to let it spring back if it wants to, start
pushing on it again, relieve the pressure again, and the broach all
the way through.

Yes -- I've done the relax and let spring back as well. A good
approach.

Unless it's a long broach. Then I might repeat the
process a few more times. Most of the time the broach will not spring
back into the guide bushing a noticeable amount, but sometimes it will
and thats when you know you just avoided a scrapped part or a broken
broach.

And -- you may have to do it up to three times with some keyway
broaches with two shims needed. Real fun when you add a 3"+ hub to
broach, even in nice 12L14 free-machining steel. :-) At least the
outside keyway on that hub (actually a hub adaptor) could be done on the
horizontal mill itself before I pulled off the old pulleys.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---