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" wrote:

On Feb 26, 11:22 am, jim wrote:
" wrote:

On Feb 26, 12:21 am, Hawke wrote:
Then look at taxes and you see the government is
only taking in 14 or 15 percent of GDP, which is really low.


Hawke


you really should not use numbers that are obviously wronge and that
are easily checked. According to the OECD the tax rate is 24.0 % of
the GDP.


Your prejudice is showing again.


Dan


Last year Federal revenue was 2.303 Tn and
15.294 Tn for GDP

That was 15% of GDP


Okay, I am confused.

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/ gives total Federal revenue as
5.1 trillion.



If $5.1 Tn were federal revenue, there would have been
a $1.5 trillion federal surplus last year.

Federal taxes were last down at 15% of GDP back in 1951.
By comparison federal taxes were 17% of GDP when Reagan
was in office.
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On 2/25/2012 10:58 PM, jk wrote:
wrote:

On 2/25/2012 11:07 AM, jk wrote:



And what is that dividing line? Some where, between 1:1 and 100:1 you
say crosses the line between fair and unfair. Again I ask just WHERE.


Sorry but I don't have the perfect number to give you right off the top
of my head. I don't think there is one ratio you would use across the
board.

Fair enough
To be fair I think you should go on a case by case basis.

I might even buy that, since each case is indeed different. I will
point out that doing that invites corruption.


It's like having judges decide things. They can be corrupt or they can
be fair you take your chances. The main thing is that most people do
think the guys on top are getting paid too well. When you know the upper
class has seen its income climb very well over the years and everyone
else's incomes are flat you can see why they think that.


I can
tell you that the boss getting 500 times what the average worker gets is
out of line. They don't pay bosses like that in Japan and India. They
didn't pay them like that here either. But then now we have the boards
of all the big companies comprised of other CEOs from different companies.

And I will grant that it is a problem. I don't agree that 500 is in
and of itself, out of line, or that 50 is even "in line".


You might be able to make a case that 500 times what a worker makes is
fair but some get far more than that. Is is not unfair that some of them
are getting much more than 500 times what the workers get?


As for what success people have just look up how many people leave an
estate of more than 100K when they die.
Truly irrelevant. Especially if you are not going to adjust that
number for both location and year. In fact not doing that adjustment
truly destroys one of your little arguments.


No it doesn't.

Oh it certainly does, but it was the argument that people are worse
off now than in earlier times.


I don't recall saying people are worse off now than in earlier times.
Unless you mean from 2000 on. Then it would be true because Americans
lost trillions in wealth from their homes and retirement portfolios when
the economic crisis hit. I saw where Hispanics were hit particularly
hard because they had most of their wealth in their homes. When they
lost value it cost them a ton.

My argument isn't an argument it's an observation of what
is. The reality is that over 90% of Americans don't have an "estate" to
leave on their demise. I just saw recently on CNN that the average net
worth of blacks in the U.S. is less than 6,000.

I am relaying the facts to you about how poor Americans are. Their home
is their most valuable asset. It is usually about all they own worth
anything. Only 2% of people are able to live well just on what assets
they have to retire on. Only 2% leave an estate. Now maybe I'm wrong and
it's 3% but my point is the same. Only a tiny percentage of people are
leaving any substantial money when they croak. If you don't think that's
true then do some research and tell us otherwise.



If you don't inflation adjust those numbers, I think you will find
that a LOT more people leave 100K+ estates than did in say 1950. But
what does that mean, NOTHING, since you can't buy a load of bread for
what you paid for one in 1950.''



Look, most people would not call 100K an estate. Most people leave
nothing or close to it.



Which "most" are you talking about in which line?
I think that the "most people" who leave nothing, would be the same
"Most people " who DO think that $100k IS an estate, and a good one.


It all depends on the terminology. To most people an estate means one
thing to lawyers it means something else. To lawyers any assets you have
when you die becomes part of your estate. It could be ten bucks. But the
commonly held idea of what is an estate is a lot of wealth.


If you are successful then you
should have a lot of money left when you die.



I disagree. If I am successful, I will die happy, contented, leaving
my wife well off, leaving no estate for the government to tax.


You say that but when you get very successful it gets harder and harder
to spend it all. Newly rich people spend a lot initially but as time
goes by they spend less. If you make a lot of money you probably won't
be able to spend it all and you will wind up with a good sized estate.
Unless you die young.


Arguable. There are lots of ways to transfer wealth that don't do
that.


We aren't talking about tricky ways to hide wealth or divest it before
death. I'm saying if you made a lot of money you will most likely have
an estate to leave your kids.


Or you will give it to them before you go, or tell them to earn their
own damn money, and spend it all.


Any way you slice it if you make a large amount it's likely you won't
spend it all and you'll wind up with surplus assets that would go into
your estate when you die. Most of us are not going to have much to go
into our estate.


Having a good adviser means that on your demise there is nothing to show
for it? I don't think so. I think it's the opposite. With good advice
and tax planners you should have a lot to show for it.


You would have a lot to show for it, but no actual estate for the
government to tax.


I don't know how you could still own the assets and not have it go into
your estate when you die. You would have to divest of the assets before
your death to avoid all taxes.


I don't see why you SHOULD leave an estate.


That's just a matter of personal opinion. Most people do want to leave
something to their kids. It's up to the individual though.

They have children they care about? If you aren't going to leave your
estate to them then who? Or what, just spend it up frivolously in your
eighties or nineties?

Why not.


My parents are in their 80s. Some would call them rich. You can barely
get them to spend any of their money on anything. You would probably be
the same at that age.


A house is usually about all most people have.



And if they held on to it, rather than trying to float at the top of a
housing bubble, that is likely to exceed your 100K number.


Could be. But then if they had a house worth 180K and owed 80 or 100K on
it and had three kids they wouldn't be leaving each kid very much money.


Do you have any idea what the average price of a house is in America?

Yes, and California too.


I checked the figures out yesterday.


It's like mid 150K and most people have a mortgage on them.



But if they held on to the house and did not get a second and third,
it is small relative to the value of the house.


That's a pretty big But! Most people took money out of their homes when
they went way up.

So you can
see most people's homes don't have all that much equity in them to leave
when they die.


That is because they took the equity out, and largely spent it.
Which is the middle class way of screwing the tax man.


Or of having a better life by spending more money on themselves. Can you
blame them? I can't.

That doesn't mean they were not successful.

My figure came from the National Association of Realtors.
Did I tell you I used to be a real estate agent?

No, but I don't see that it is relevant.


I just said that to let you know that having been a real estate agent I
know something about real estate.

Hawke



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On 2/25/2012 10:13 PM, David R. Birch wrote:
On 2/25/2012 10:27 PM, Hawwke-ptooey wrote:
On 2/25/2012 11:12 AM, jk wrote:



Don't have a cite. Didn't make it up. What the **** is with you people?
You think I make this **** up to win an argument?


Yes.


I don't. Never have.


I don't now and have never done that.


Tell us again what Ralph Nader said. Or kinda said. Or may have said...
Why do you think I saw what I say? I saw, hear, read
these things and pass them on. I sure don't make anything up. I wouldn't
even think of that kind of thing. I'm not a cheater and never have been.


I'd like to see how accurate you would be after seeing a TV program one
time over two weeks earlier, and not having made any effort to remember
it. I did misremember what Nader said. In my memory of the show I
thought he said 130 million workers had ten dollar an hour jobs. After
checking it out what he really said was 1/3 of the workforce was making
Walmart wages. So regardless of what he said, the truth is the same, and
that is we have a third of our workers making ten bucks an hour or less.
That means we have around 50 million people working for really bad
wages. Does my memory have anything to do with that fact? Is it
important that didn't remember the numbers exactly? I don't think so.


Maybe a bit... imprecise... in memory, though?


Uh, yeah. I reiterated I only saw the show one time and wasn't taking
any notes. I just watched it for entertainment and after two weeks of
not giving it any more thought I forgot some of it. Who wouldn't?

If I can't win an argument fairly I don't want to win it. Besides if you
cheat you didn't really win. But no I didn't not make it up I saw that
on TV somewhere.


Therefore it must be true, I'm sure we all see that.


The longer it's been since you saw something the less of it is
remembered. It's the same for you as it is for me. I've seen every
Superbowl live. I don't remember a lot of any of them. No one can.


It was another depressing statistic showing America's
decline. If you are lower class in America your chances of getting out
of it are now worse than for a European. That's what they said. It's
fine with me if you don't want to believe it. I know it's true.


Or has a lot of truthyness.


Not at all. I saw the statistic. But I see all kinds of stats all the
time. I can't keep everything I see straight and neither can anyone
else. But I do remember it when it show something significant. Something
like Europe passing the U.S. in the ability for young people to move up.
That kind of thing I remember. The other trivial stuff, no.

How so? My point is that America has declined and that young people are
doing worse in getting ahead here than they are in Europe. That was
never the case in the past. So we have gone down hill. I don't like
that. While I'm glad to see the Europeans do better I don't want us to
have to get worse, and I don't think we have to. I just think we've been
doing things wrong for thirty years and now it has all caught up with us
and we're paying for our stupidity.

Hawwke-ptooey


Unless the reps come up with something better than we've seen so far,
we're in for another 4 years of that stupidity.

But he looks nice in a suit and reads what he's been told to say from
the teleprompter well.

David



If you really think that empty suit, Romney, will do better you are
dreaming.

Hawke

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On 2/26/2012 5:40 AM, wrote:
On Feb 25, 11:39 pm, wrote:


So why don't you tell us of the benefits of wealth distribution.


Dan


I don't expect the normal person to know about things like that so it
has nothing to do with being dumb. It's more about you have other things
to think about. But that's why we have people who specialize in that
kind of thing. In this case you would want the help of an economist.


So whose side do you come down on? The middle class or the few elites
controlling most of the country's wealth?

Even an idiot like Plimpton should be able to tell you that the benefits
of having most wealth in the hands of the middle class makes for a
better and stronger country. I can tell you why it's better politically
but it should be an economist that tells you why badly distributed
wealth is bad for a nation. Just take a look at the countries where a
few own everything. Those countries suck.

Hawke



You made the statement, but then claim it is beyond you to actually
tell the benefits. You say even an idiot like Plimpton should be able
to tell me, but you are not able to do so.

I try not be be on a side. I do not believe in class warfare as you
seem to believe.

Dan



Dan, as an American I though it would be self evident to you that it's
inherently better for the middle class to have more of the country's
wealth than a small group of elites. You need to be told why that is?
Having a prosperous middle class is a fundamental American value. But
are you saying you don't know why and that I need to give you the reasons?

I also particularly singled out Plimpton because any economist worth his
salt should be able to explain that one right off the top of his head.
But then I assumed virtually any American could also do the same thing.
Are you saying you need to have it explained to you?

Hawke


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On 2/26/2012 3:21 PM, Hawwke-ptooey wrote:
On 2/25/2012 10:13 PM, David R. Birch wrote:
On 2/25/2012 10:27 PM, Hawwke-ptooey wrote:
On 2/25/2012 11:12 AM, jk wrote:



Don't have a cite. Didn't make it up. What the **** is with you people?
You think I make this **** up to win an argument?


Yes.


I don't. Never have.


The problem is that you have displayed so little credibility, maturity
and accumulated wisdom in your typical posts that no one takes you
seriously. You come on like a little boy trying to join an adult
conversation, but you just don't have enough depth of insight to be able
to make a useful contribution, plus you're too petty and obnoxious to
even be amusing.

You make big noises about your alleged poli sci degree, but all that you
show us is that left = good, right(as in, anyone who points out your
errors)= bad. You can't even recognize that there are valid political
stances other than left/right or that there are people like me far to
the left of you who see you for the shallow poseur that you are.




I don't now and have never done that.


Tell us again what Ralph Nader said. Or kinda said. Or may have said...
Why do you think I saw what I say? I saw, hear, read
these things and pass them on. I sure don't make anything up. I wouldn't
even think of that kind of thing. I'm not a cheater and never have been.


I'd like to see how accurate you would be after seeing a TV program one
time over two weeks earlier, and not having made any effort to remember
it. I did misremember what Nader said. In my memory of the show I
thought he said 130 million workers had ten dollar an hour jobs. After
checking it out what he really said was 1/3 of the workforce was making
Walmart wages. So regardless of what he said, the truth is the same, and
that is we have a third of our workers making ten bucks an hour or less.
That means we have around 50 million people working for really bad
wages. Does my memory have anything to do with that fact? Is it
important that didn't remember the numbers exactly? I don't think so.


Oh, gee, I guess if I couldn't precisely remember what was said,

I WOULDN'T REFER TO IT AS PROOF OF ANYTHING!!



Maybe a bit... imprecise... in memory, though?


Uh, yeah. I reiterated I only saw the show one time and wasn't taking
any notes. I just watched it for entertainment and after two weeks of
not giving it any more thought I forgot some of it. Who wouldn't?


Oh, gee, I guess if I couldn't precisely remember what was said,

I WOULDN'T REFER TO IT AS PROOF OF ANYTHING!!

If I can't win an argument fairly I don't want to win it. Besides if you
cheat you didn't really win. But no I didn't not make it up I saw that
on TV somewhere.


Therefore it must be true, I'm sure we all see that.


The longer it's been since you saw something the less of it is
remembered. It's the same for you as it is for me. I've seen every
Superbowl live. I don't remember a lot of any of them. No one can.


Oh, gee, I guess if I couldn't precisely remember what was said,

I WOULDN'T REFER TO IT AS PROOF OF ANYTHING!!



It was another depressing statistic showing America's
decline. If you are lower class in America your chances of getting out
of it are now worse than for a European. That's what they said. It's
fine with me if you don't want to believe it. I know it's true.


Or has a lot of truthyness.


Not at all. I saw the statistic. But I see all kinds of stats all the
time. I can't keep everything I see straight and neither can anyone
else. But I do remember it when it show something significant. Something
like Europe passing the U.S. in the ability for young people to move up.
That kind of thing I remember. The other trivial stuff, no.


So it's OK with you to cite something a true that you only vaguely remember.

Oh, gee, I guess if I couldn't precisely remember what was said,

I WOULDN'T REFER TO IT AS PROOF OF ANYTHING!!


How so? My point is that America has declined and that young people are
doing worse in getting ahead here than they are in Europe. That was
never the case in the past. So we have gone down hill. I don't like
that. While I'm glad to see the Europeans do better I don't want us to
have to get worse, and I don't think we have to. I just think we've been
doing things wrong for thirty years and now it has all caught up with us
and we're paying for our stupidity.

Hawwke-ptooey


Unless the reps come up with something better than we've seen so far,
we're in for another 4 years of that stupidity.

But he looks nice in a suit and reads what he's been told to say from
the teleprompter well.

David



If you really think that empty suit, Romney, will do better you are
dreaming.


Hawwke-ptooey


So you didn't read this or you didn't understand it? Which?

"Unless the reps come up with something better than we've seen so far,
we're in for another 4 years of that stupidity."

Which?

David


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On Feb 26, 4:25*pm, Hawke wrote:


Dan, as an American I though it would be self evident to you that it's
inherently better for the middle class to have more of the country's
wealth than a small group of elites. You need to be told why that is?
Having a prosperous middle class is a fundamental American value. But
are you saying you don't know why and that I need to give you the reasons?

I am looking for something more than" it would be self evident." I am
sure you think it would be self evident, but do you have any good
theories on why it would be better. If you can not give any reasons,
then I conclude you really do not know why.

For example if the middle class got 50 % more and the lower class got
50 % more and the wealthy got 75% more. That would mean the wealthy
had an even larger percentage of the wealth, but the middle class
would still be better off.

Or for example the wealthy got 20% less and the middle and lower
classes got 3% more, then the wealthy would be less well off , but the
middle and lower class would not be as well off as when the wealthy
got 50% more. In that in one case they got 50% more and in the other
case they only get 3% more.


I also particularly singled out Plimpton because any economist worth his
salt should be able to explain that one right off the top of his head.
But then I assumed virtually any American could also do the same thing.
Are you saying you need to have it explained to you?

Hawke


Yes, I am saying that I want you to explain it to me. I do not think
you have thought about it very much and doubt if you can come up with
any good reasons.

Dan
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On 2/26/2012 5:49 AM, wrote:
On Feb 26, 12:21 am, wrote:
Then look at taxes and you see the government is
only taking in 14 or 15 percent of GDP, which is really low.



Hawke



you really should not use numbers that are obviously wronge and that
are easily checked. According to the OECD the tax rate is 24.0 % of
the GDP.

Your prejudice is showing again.

Dan



Sorry Dan but I heard that figure yesterday on TV. I believe you have
your figures wrong this time, not me. 24% sounds more to me like what
the government is spending not what it is taking in. The usual amount
the government takes in is between 15-18 percent but now it is down to
14% and I have heard that figure several times.

So now it's my turn to say you are not accurate with your statistics. I
guess I won't be able to believe anything you say from here on. Just
like you do to me. So exactly how sure are you of your stats? I heard it
this weekend from an economist on one of the weekend shows. Fareed
Zakaria had David Stockman, Robert Reich, a woman whose last name is
Tett, she's English, and one other, all experts. The point is I heard
someone quote the number 14% of GDP is all we are taking in. By the way,
if we were taking in 24% of GDP in taxes we wouldn't be going into debt
would we. Last I checked we're still going into debt every day. So we
can't be taking in that much.

Hawke
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On 2/26/2012 9:24 AM, wrote:
On Feb 26, 11:22 am, wrote:
" wrote:

On Feb 26, 12:21 am, wrote:
Then look at taxes and you see the government is
only taking in 14 or 15 percent of GDP, which is really low.


Hawke


you really should not use numbers that are obviously wronge and that
are easily checked. According to the OECD the tax rate is 24.0 % of
the GDP.


Your prejudice is showing again.


Dan


Last year Federal revenue was 2.303 Tn and
15.294 Tn for GDP

That was 15% of GDP


Okay, I am confused.

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/ gives total Federal revenue as
5.1 trillion.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals has a table that
agrees with your 2.303 trillion

Okay I see where I went astray. Missed that the 5.1 is total revenue
including cities and states, not just Federal revenue. and the 23.5 %
is the Federal expenditures as percent of GDP.

Sorry about that. I remembered that expenditures were over 21 % of
GDP and then screwed up more when I did a quick check for actual
numbers.

So the Federal Government is spending 56% more than it takes in.

Dan



Yeah, see how it works Dan? Sometimes you get it wrong. That's what
happens when you actually say something. Now you know what it's like.
Should we consider you a liar now? That's the kind of thing you said
about me. You question every statement I make like it can't be trusted.
Now you have proven not to put up accurate information. Is that a
mistake or did you do it on purpose. How can I believe anything you
write when you get things so wrong?

How do you like it? We all make mistakes. I'd appreciate it if you acted
decently in the future if I happen to be the one making the mistake.

Hawke
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:03:33 -0800, Hawke
wrote:

On 2/25/2012 10:58 PM, jk wrote:
wrote:

On 2/25/2012 11:07 AM, jk wrote:



And what is that dividing line? Some where, between 1:1 and 100:1 you
say crosses the line between fair and unfair. Again I ask just WHERE.

Sorry but I don't have the perfect number to give you right off the top
of my head. I don't think there is one ratio you would use across the
board.

Fair enough
To be fair I think you should go on a case by case basis.

I might even buy that, since each case is indeed different. I will
point out that doing that invites corruption.


It's like having judges decide things. They can be corrupt or they can
be fair you take your chances. The main thing is that most people do
think the guys on top are getting paid too well. When you know the upper
class has seen its income climb very well over the years and everyone
else's incomes are flat you can see why they think that.


I can
tell you that the boss getting 500 times what the average worker gets is
out of line. They don't pay bosses like that in Japan and India. They
didn't pay them like that here either. But then now we have the boards
of all the big companies comprised of other CEOs from different companies.

And I will grant that it is a problem. I don't agree that 500 is in
and of itself, out of line, or that 50 is even "in line".


You might be able to make a case that 500 times what a worker makes is
fair but some get far more than that. Is is not unfair that some of them
are getting much more than 500 times what the workers get?


I think that this is where you make your basic error. The correlation
of one salary to another, in a corporate sense, is a meaningless
exercise.

For example, during my salad days I was operations manager of a medium
sized construction and services company. I prepared all bids for new
work, negotiated contracts, selected and supervised project staffing,
and so on. Due to my efforts the company either gained a new source of
income or lost it and at the time was bringing, probably a million
dollars of new business annually into the company. At the same time we
had a bloke named Suderman who was a gofer, fetched coffee, carried
mail around to offices, carried the boss' briefcase in from the car,
etc.

How can you compare one individual, who's efforts accounted for
probably 1/3rd of the company's annual income to that of a lad
carrying coffee?

And I don't think that I am unique. From my experience with other
companies in the same field I'd say that I was a typical of people in
my position.

--
Cheers,

John B.


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Hawke wrote:



You might be able to make a case that 500 times what a worker makes is
fair but some get far more than that. Is is not unfair that some of them
are getting much more than 500 times what the workers get?

It doesn't matter where you draw the line. It is THAT you draw a line
in the sand, and can't justify it, that I see as a problem.


As for what success people have just look up how many people leave an
estate of more than 100K when they die.
Truly irrelevant. Especially if you are not going to adjust that
number for both location and year. In fact not doing that adjustment
truly destroys one of your little arguments.

No it doesn't.

Oh it certainly does, but it was the argument that people are worse
off now than in earlier times.


I don't recall saying people are worse off now than in earlier times.

Oh COME ON.
That is exactly what you said, specifically that we were worse off now
than we were in the 50s and at the turn of the previous century. The
discussion even digressed back to the medieval guilds when you made
another statement.

Unless you mean from 2000 on. Then it would be true because Americans
lost trillions in wealth from their homes

No they didn't, that "Wealth" was largely never there. Yes they
THOUGHT it was.
and retirement portfolios when

That I will agree with.
the economic crisis hit.



Which "most" are you talking about in which line?
I think that the "most people" who leave nothing, would be the same
"Most people " who DO think that $100k IS an estate, and a good one.


It all depends on the terminology. To most people an estate means one
thing to lawyers it means something else. To lawyers any assets you have
when you die becomes part of your estate. It could be ten bucks. But the
commonly held idea of what is an estate is a lot of wealth.


No, the commonly held idea of an estate, matches almost exactly that
which you say the lawyers call it.


If you are successful then you
should have a lot of money left when you die.



I disagree. If I am successful, I will die happy, contented, leaving
my wife well off, leaving no estate for the government to tax.


You say that but when you get very successful it gets harder and harder
to spend it all. Newly rich people spend a lot initially but as time
goes by they spend less. If you make a lot of money you probably won't
be able to spend it all and you will wind up with a good sized estate.
Unless you die young.

Logic error,...........
If I make a lot of money, I will STILL have a "good sized estate" if
I die young. More than if I die old.


Arguable. There are lots of ways to transfer wealth that don't do
that.

We aren't talking about tricky ways to hide wealth or divest it before
death. I'm saying if you made a lot of money you will most likely have
an estate to leave your kids.


Or you will give it to them before you go, or tell them to earn their
own damn money, and spend it all.


Any way you slice it if you make a large amount it's likely you won't
spend it all and you'll wind up with surplus assets that would go into
your estate when you die. Most of us are not going to have much to go
into our estate.



You would have a lot to show for it, but no actual estate for the
government to tax.


I don't know how you could still own the assets and not have it go into
your estate when you die. You would have to divest of the assets before
your death to avoid all taxes.

You don't have to own it to have exclusive use and control of it.
I don't see why you SHOULD leave an estate.


That's just a matter of personal opinion. Most people do want to leave
something to their kids. It's up to the individual though.

They have children they care about? If you aren't going to leave your
estate to them then who? Or what, just spend it up frivolously in your
eighties or nineties?

Why not.


My parents are in their 80s. Some would call them rich. You can barely
get them to spend any of their money on anything. You would probably be
the same at that age.

There you go again, making assumptions. I don't think it is the age
they are, it is where and when they were brought up.
A house is usually about all most people have.


And if they held on to it, rather than trying to float at the top of a
housing bubble, that is likely to exceed your 100K number.

Could be. But then if they had a house worth 180K and owed 80 or 100K on
it and had three kids they wouldn't be leaving each kid very much money.


Do you have any idea what the average price of a house is in America?

Yes, and California too.


I checked the figures out yesterday.
It's like mid 150K and most people have a mortgage on them.

But if they held on to the house and did not get a second and third,
it is small relative to the value of the house.


So you can
see most people's homes don't have all that much equity in them to leave
when they die.

That is because they took the equity out, and largely spent it.
Which is the middle class way of screwing the tax man.

Or of having a better life by spending more money on themselves. Can you
blame them? I can't.

I don't blame them, they made a choice. [ I made a different one, and
now OWN my house and cars.]

That doesn't mean they were not successful, which is what you claimed.


That doesn't mean they were not successful.
My figure came from the National Association of Realtors.
Did I tell you I used to be a real estate agent?

No, but I don't see that it is relevant.

I just said that to let you know that having been a real estate agent I
know something about real estate.

And it's still irrelevant.
jk
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Default "Why do you have a right to your money?"

Hawke wrote:


I'd like to see how accurate you would be after seeing a TV program one
time over two weeks earlier, and not having made any effort to remember
it.

But I am not the one putting those number out there to support an
argument.

I did misremember what Nader said. In my memory of the show I
thought he said 130 million workers had ten dollar an hour jobs. After
checking it out what he really said was 1/3 of the workforce was making
Walmart wages. So regardless of what he said, the truth is the same, and
that is we have a third of our workers making ten bucks an hour or less.
That means we have around 50 million people working for really bad
wages. Does my memory have anything to do with that fact? Is it
important that didn't remember the numbers exactly? I don't think so.

It became important when you claimed those WERE the numbers and that
Nader had documentation for them.

Maybe a bit... imprecise... in memory, though?


The longer it's been since you saw something the less of it is
remembered. It's the same for you as it is for me. I've seen every
Superbowl live. I don't remember a lot of any of them. No one can.

And I can't say that I have EVER seen ANY of them live. Complete waste
of time. [I may have though, at my parents we usually had games on in
the background while we played chess. Depends on which side I was
sitting on if I saw it. More often the rose bowl than the superbowl,
that would be for sure.]




If you really think that empty suit, Romney, will do better you are
dreaming.


Better the empty suit, than the truly scary sweater that could be his
alternative.


jk
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Default "Why do you have a right to your money?"

On Feb 26, 8:55*pm, Hawke wrote:


Yeah, see how it works Dan? Sometimes you get it wrong. That's what
happens when you actually say something. Now you know what it's like.
Should we consider you a liar now? That's the kind of thing you said
about me. You question every statement I make like it can't be trusted.
Now you have proven not to put up accurate information. Is that a
mistake or did you do it on purpose. How can I believe anything you
write when you get things so wrong?

How do you like it? We all make mistakes. I'd appreciate it if you acted
decently in the future if I happen to be the one making the mistake.

Hawke


Actually I hope you see how it works. Jim said I was wrong so I
checked and sure enough I was wrong. So I admitted it and posted that
I had made a mistake. I did not claim it was actually correct. I
went back and checked my sources and posted real numbers.

And I do not like the fact that I screwed up. I hate to be wrong and
try to be correct. So yes I was lying when I said you were wrong.
And I apologize. And hope you will always check my statements and not
just believe them.


Dan

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